Clove Darkwave Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) I removed this because Kalmor did. ~ Clove MMMOOOODDDSSS! Edited December 7, 2015 by Clove Darkwave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizy Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pignog Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 i finally read through a page of this thread, i think. as a PROUD and VERY FAT owner of an enfield and piece of shit savage .22 that i sometimes hunt and target shoot with, all yall americans are nuts with ur guns, control that shitthis is me irl However, as for any counter argument against gun control that is based around only the Government having firearms and using it to oppress the people. Good news, The United States of America has already banned ownership of the following things that would be most useful towards maintaining 'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state'; GPS guided bombs, high speed interceptor aircraft, artillery, combat capable tanks, shoulder mounted surface to air missile launchers, cruise missiles, attack helicopters, grenade launchers, land mines, inter-continental ballistic missiles, the GAU-8 Avenger 30mm cannon, nuclear powered 'super' aircraft carriers, and many other such things.these things should all be legal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaraphayx Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 MMMOOOODDDSSS!Don't worry I've informed Kalmor of this trespass. Before too long those mean internet words will be gone and you will never have to read them again.I feel safer already. :-) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clove Darkwave Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 That MS Paint doodle gave me the giggles I needed at 7am during a 6 day work week, thanks for that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 By the way, forgot to mention, Ashley was wrong, it is in fact NOT illegal to own high speed interceptor aircraft in US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyfish Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 By the way, forgot to mention, Ashley was wrong, it is in fact NOT illegal to own high speed interceptor aircraft in US.You can own one, it just has to be de-militarized lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Which just means you can't own the rockets or the guns that go with it. But since when to criminals listen to laws and all that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyfish Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Which just means you can't own the rockets or the guns that go with it. But since when to criminals listen to laws and all that? Nope, they are required to completely gut the weapons control systems as well. The aircraft must be 100% INCAPABLE of carrying or firing any weapons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyAshes Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 By the way, forgot to mention, Ashley was wrong, it is in fact NOT illegal to own high speed interceptor aircraft in US.In the sense that they must be entirely demilitarized and even units sold used from the United States Armed Forces have their afterburners removed. The aircraft must pass FAA certification which is extremely stringent since the aircraft themselves were never designed with FAA regulations in mind. (The US Military could strap rockets and an ejection seat onto boulder, call it a fighter jet, and the FAA can't say word one about it's operation in American skies) The aircraft must also be inspected and improved by a wide range of three letter agencies, including the ATF. Super sonic flight in the United States is also heavily restricted and subject to sanctions by the FAA. Considering the level of 'Big Iron' needed to even construct a weapons and targeting systems for a combat aircraft, how these are classified technologies where even their sale to other governments is subject to prohibition or restriction, it would be nearly impossible to procure armament systems for and entirely impossible to build one from scratch with their own R&D.So yes Rassah, technically Americans buy by fast, useless, older model, retired, rust buckets, fly them up into the skies to fight against the government and then meet their maker as an AIM-120 AMRAM blows them out of the air without ever having seen it coming as they are entirely devoid of offensive or defensive systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizy Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I guess I'll just buy my fighter jets from Russia like everyone else. (BTW, I don't advocate using guns to stand up to US government. That ship has unfortunately sailed long ago, as was completely expected. I prefer vote the worst possible candidate in and force the system to run out of money and collapse option. Much easier and more effective. That said, no reason, or effective means, to ban guns) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyfish Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Kaizy I love you please never change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexInsane Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 There is a disturbing lack of crying American-flag patterned bald eagles in this thread. You expect me to fap without them? DO MY BIDDING. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyAshes Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 5 hours ago, Rassah said: I guess I'll just buy my fighter jets from Russia like everyone else. Ya know the FAA and every other agency will still hold the aircraft to the same certification expectations even if it was manufactured in another country, right? They wouldn't just wave a MiG-29 complete with targeting systems and armament through customs. And, important, a good many of military aircraft are not capable of even passing FAA certification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willow Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 On 12/6/2015 at 4:36 PM, Rassah said: (Stuck at the Miami airport...) Depends on how you draw the borders. Exclude the 5 most violent cities, and US is safer than most of Europe. Take Europe as a whole giant country, including the Balctics, and its more violent than US. It's a geographically localized problem. One that has been steadily improving over the years, even without stricter gun control. idk man, I've been in Europe for a few months now and the most violent attack I've witnessed (okay I didn't witness it but it happened pretty close to me) was the Paris bombing. But there have been at least 3 or 4 shootings in the US since I left Not to say there aren't really dangerous parts of Europe but rampage killings aren't a common thing here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Doggo Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 where is kaizy getting these pictures of fun looking dudes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissFleece Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 1 hour ago, Sir Gibby said: where is kaizy getting these pictures of fun looking dudes They're from her family reunion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toboe Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 13 hours ago, Rassah said: I guess I'll just buy my fighter jets from Russia like everyone else. (BTW, I don't advocate using guns to stand up to US government. That ship has unfortunately sailed long ago, as was completely expected. I prefer vote the worst possible candidate in and force the system to run out of money and collapse option. Much easier and more effective. That said, no reason, or effective means, to ban guns) So, Trump for President? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizy Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 5 hours ago, MissFleece said: They're from her family reunion. Fucked up if true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 13 hours ago, willow said: idk man, I've been in Europe for a few months now and the most violent attack I've witnessed (okay I didn't witness it but it happened pretty close to me) was the Paris bombing. But there have been at least 3 or 4 shootings in the US since I leftt There have been a few shooting in EU. You're doing the same thing you're replying to that I chastised about: comparing individual EU countries to all of giant USA. Not many shootings in, say, New Hampshire, or Idaho. And in states with lots of shootings, almost all are in specific cities. Personally I've never been anywhere near a shooting, despite being all over USA. 6 hours ago, Toboe said: So, Trump for President? I'm convinced he's trolling the entire election process. Personally I'd be voting for Bernie, since I want to watch the world bern, but I suspect the dem choice will be Hilary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) 6 hours ago, Kaizy said: That guy so reminds me of Private "Pyle" from Full Metal Jacket. Edited December 9, 2015 by Mr. Fox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyAshes Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 20 hours ago, Rassah said: (BTW, I don't advocate using guns to stand up to US government. That ship has unfortunately sailed long ago, as was completely expected. You'd need a really terrible candidate to cause American's to overthrow their own government. Like, maybe a president that committed a crime, then stepped down so his vice president could become president and pardon him for any crime! Wait a second... Right, yeah... Well if America didn't give up on democracy after Nixon, good luck getting another president that would do worse. Keeping in mind that the rules actually DO say that a dog cannot run for president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clove Darkwave Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 13 minutes ago, Rassah said: but I suspect the dem choice will be Hilary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I agree. Voting will not solve any of our problems. Fighting with violence will not solve any problems. That's why I'm pursuing the strategy of letting people simply exit the political system and make it irrelevant or defund it. 1 minute ago, Clove Darkwave said: You think Bernie will actually be picked as a nominee? So far there's every indication that he's just getting more moderate, socialist, and anti-war Democrats organized, to later hand them over to centrist, corporate, war hawk Hilary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clove Darkwave Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I dunno he has a LOT of support out here. I haven't seen anything for Shillary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyfish Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Most electoral predictions from various universities and classes have predicted Bernie as our next president. One in particular, Western Illinois University, predicted Bernie as the winner and they have been correct about every single election since 1975. So, yeah, anybody who outright says "Bernie doesn't stand a chance" has no clue what they're talking about. He stands one hell of a good chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalletFace Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 On 12/6/2015 at 10:36 AM, Rassah said: (Stuck at the Miami airport...) (QUOTE) Depends on how you draw the borders. Exclude the 5 most violent cities, and US is safer than most of Europe. Take Europe as a whole giant country, including the Balctics, and its more violent than US. It's a geographically localized problem. One that has been steadily improving over the years, even without stricter gun control. (QUOTE) Only if you cherry pick which countries you consider "Western." There are a few countries that are industrialized first world nations that have it worse (like Brazil for instance). It also distorts the issue by focusing on only gun homicides while ignoring other homicides, as if gun homicides are somehow worse that others, despite the exact same outcome. If you include homicides in general, US again doesn't come off much worse than others. And, unfortunately, the only proposed changes are for trying to fix the symptoms instead of underlying problems, and involve centralizing gun ownership instead of restricting it. Since mass shootings are rare despite what it may seem, and I could hardly find many mass shootings in Europe, I am going to be discussing this on gun homicides in general - and I will include mass shootings as best as I can - since you say the U.S.A. is safer anyway. Using the most recent information released by the FBI (2010 data), the top ten cities had around 2000 gun homicides. The U.S. in total had around 9,000, so I am being generous when I knock off that 2,000. Let's compare that to Super-Europe: Let's grab all countries with a population of over 10,000,000 with data for 2010 first: Russia (European) Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Poland, Romania, the Netherlands, Belgium, Greece, the Czech Republic, and Portugal. 694 gun homicides in all but Russia, and 4337 gun homicides with. I'll round it up to 4,500 to play fair. Let's get the ones under 10,000,000 now: Hungary, Sweden, Belarus, Austria, Switzerland, Bulgaria, Serbia, Denmark, Finland, Slovakia, Norway, Croatia, Moldova, Lithuania, Albania, Macedonia, Slovenia, Latvia, Estonia, Cyprus, Montenegro, Luxembourg, Malta, Iceland, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican City. This is around 550 gun homicides, but I'll round it up to 600 to give you an edge seeing as many of the smaller states had 0 reported gun homicides in 2010, and three smaller states had no data available. In all, that's around 5,050 gun homicides in the whole of Europe in 2010. Even with the top ten cities for gun homicides removed, the entirety of Europe, all of the over 600,000,000 continental Europeans, had around 2,000 fewer gun homicides than all of the U.S.A's 315,000,000 people. And, on the gun homicides vs. other homicides thing, the problem is that most of the U.S.A.'s homicides are gun homicides. Even in Russia, the European state with the most homicides and gun homicides, regularly less than a quarter of all homicides every year are done with a gun, but, in the U.S.A., over half - sometimes as much as 75-80% - of homicides are completed with a gun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 19 hours ago, Lucyfish said: Most electoral predictions from various universities and classes have predicted Bernie as our next president. One in particular, Western Illinois University, predicted Bernie as the winner and they have been correct about every single election since 1975. So, yeah, anybody who outright says "Bernie doesn't stand a chance" has no clue what they're talking about. He stands one hell of a good chance. Honestly I would love to see Bernie get elected. I support his policies. Not because I think they will be great for poor and middle class. I doubt he would get them through the Senate, but if he does, they will be terrible for the middle class. I support his election and his policies because they will bring the US economy and monetary policy a large step closer to the brink of collapse. Which in turn would make things like bitcoin and grey market economies MUCH more valuable. Mallet still comparing just gun homicides instead of homicides in general, despite me already saying it's stupid to do so, unless you think gun homicides are somehow worse than other homicides... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyfish Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 When it comes to fixing our economy what could be better than electing a kind old Jew? 8U 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clove Darkwave Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 All of the candidates suck, as usual. Except Zoltan Istvan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conker Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 On 12/9/2015 at 5:50 PM, Rassah said: Honestly I would love to see Bernie get elected. I support his policies. Oh fuck I bet I know where this is going! Not because I think they will be great for poor and middle class. I doubt he would get them through the Senate, but if he does, they will be terrible for the middle class. I support his election and his policies because they will bring the US economy and monetary policy a large step closer to the brink of collapse. Which in turn would make things like bitcoin and grey market economies MUCH more valuable. Fuckin' called it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalletFace Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 9 minutes ago, Conker said: Oh fuck I bet I know where this is going! To be honest, where else could it have gone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 16 hours ago, Clove Darkwave said: All of the candidates suck, as usual. Except Zoltan Istvan. Vermin Supreme is even better. He promises everything Bernie does, AND a free pony for everyone. He even attended Bronycon and was endorsed by bronies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Conker said: Fuckin' called it. No, I'm sorry, you're right. A Republican led Senate, which filibusters EVERYTHING, would absolutely pass Bernie's free healthcare after blocking it for four decades, and would definitely pass free college education after complaining that student debt is at an incredibly high bubble level. And of course all those and other programs would be approved by the Senate that threatens to shut down the government every time the debt ceiling has to be raised due to complaints about our unsustainable debt. Oh, and OF COURSE Bernie's programs will save us money and reduce debt, because obviously the bankers who were the top funders of Obama's campaign, who own most of the Senate, will be very happy to have more taxes raised on them. And once they're raised, OF COURSE taxes on Wall Street trades will not in any way reduce Wall Street trading, just like taxes on cigarettes do not reduce smoking, and obviously Wall Street and the 1% will simply oblige to the increased taxation to pay for those freebies, instead of move their money and trades elsewhere, because being rich as fuck, they obviously have absolutely no accountants or resources to avoid all of those taxes. And OF COURSE once those programs are passed through the filibustering Senate that hates free social spending, and all the rich pay for those programs like rich always have, those programs with their massively increased debt will not in any way end up having to be paid entirely by the poor and middle class. What the fuck was I thinking! EDIT: Remember once how we were going to have Hope and Change? We would have the new guy stop foreign wars, stop the warrantless spying on Americans, stop abusing and deporting immigrants, stop terrorist attacks on our soil, and stop bailing out bankers and giving out handouts to 1% and corporations? We already had a Bernie in office for 7 years now (you Bernie supporters are running as if we have a Republican in office you can't wait to replace). Oh, but you're right, "this time it will be different." Edited December 11, 2015 by Rassah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conker Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 12 minutes ago, Rassah said: What the fuck was I thinking! You're thinking I'm sober enough to bother with you tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizy Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlynnCoyote Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 2 hours ago, Kaizy said: These latest ones aren't as good as the early ones you found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizy Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 2 minutes ago, FlynnCoyote said: These latest ones aren't as good as the early ones you found. Look man, there's a limited selection. I was hoping the thread would just die already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalletFace Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 18 hours ago, Kaizy said: Look man, there's a limited selection. I was hoping the thread would just die already. Quitter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I recorded this one last summer https://youtu.be/8kyLgLm4-OM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexInsane Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Why, oh why couldn't I have been born in Europe instead of America? I could've been so happy there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 23 hours ago, AlexInsane said: Why, oh why couldn't I have been born in Europe instead of America? I could've been so happy there. Depends on where. You'd be very unhappy in Greece, probably a bit angry in France, and probably suicidal in Sweden or Finland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conker Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 17 minutes ago, 6tails said: If the US economy died, given the majority of Bitcoin is tied up in US currency, your bitcoin worth would drop and you'd be in the poorhouse. Did you fail basic economics when it came to covering the topic of fiat currency, or what? Why did that quote me and not Ressah ._. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 2 hours ago, 6tails said: If the US economy died, given the majority of Bitcoin is tied up in US currency, your bitcoin worth would drop and you'd be in the poorhouse. "Tied up in US currency?" Wtf are you smoking? Bitcoin is "tied up" in US currency about as much as gold or oil are "tied up" in US currency. I.e. they're priced in US currency (and Euro, and Yuan). And if US currency went down, then the prices of gold, oil, and bitcoin, would go up. Or, maybe you meant "traded" in US currency? You'd be wrong too. The majority of bitcoin is traded in Yuan (Chinese) currency. Which is currently unstable and declining rapidly, which is why tons of Chinese are moving their money out of Yuan and into Bitcoin, and why Bitcoin rose in value 25% just this week. Bitcoin is an independent, global, apolitical, impossible to regulate, and impossible to stop escape from crappy currencies. It goes UP when some country's currency crashes (like Cyprus, or Greece, or China), and USD isn't an exception. 2 hours ago, 6tails said: Did you fail basic economics when it came to covering the topic of fiat currency, or what? Sounds like you're the one who never even had basic economics or any education about currencies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 5 minutes ago, 6tails said: AKA easy as fuck to scam people! Dumb people. And not any easier than with cash or Western Union. Also, temporarily, until multisig escrows become common. But what would you know? You even believe that bitcoin has been hacked by black hats and can be taken down at any time This is how things are going to go down. Europe is going to have another recession, because the Greece problem was never fixed, and exists in Italy, Spain, Ireland, and others. As the Euro declines and access to funds gets more and more limited, people with money and assets will start moving their money to more traditional safe heavens: USD and US stocks and property. Then governments will inevitably clamp down on capital flight with capital controls like they always do (see Cyprus, Greece, Iceland). Then there will be only one way to move their money out past government restrictions. It's the same way people in Greece, Cyprus, China, and India have been using, driving us bitcoin's price as a result. If US elects someone like Bernie, and passes more and more taxes, like the 90% proposed rate (or US runs into more and more economic problems and can't borrow enough to support all its programs, requiring it to depend more and more on taxation), then more and more rich will move their money to the ultimate tax shelter. Remember, Switzerland has been forced to open and expose their "numbered" accounts. There are barely any tax shelters left in the world, and they're all unreliable, since you have to trust your money to someone else, after going through the trouble of smuggling your money across the border. With bitcoin you have direct access and control of your money, don't need to move it across borders, and best of all, can spend it directly. So, yes, I support Bernie and his type of programs, and whatever Europe is doing with their increased social programs but not enough money in Germany to pay for them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 22 minutes ago, 6tails said: http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/02/technology/security/bitcoin-porn/index.html Us blackhats can run amok on your network all day and you wouldn't be none the wiser if it weren't for other blackhats pointing shit out. Meanwhile, those of us with actual knowledge and an actual education keep laughing at you. It's hilarious that you think inserting a text into a bitcoin transaction, which is a known and important feature used in things like asset tracking, contracts, and escrows (and occasional links to porn) is something only blackhats can do, or would know about. Seriously, your "actual knowledge" is like Intro to Bitcoin. Not even Bitcoin 101. And no, inserting text into transactions is not "bitcoin has been hacked" now can it be used to "take down bitcoin at any time." Please stop showing your ignorance on this topic. It's getting a bit embarrassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 1 hour ago, 6tails said: Oh? Don't understand how to insert lines of data bit-by-bit to transfer data out as plain text? Looks like you failed Steganography. Well, despite me constantly pointing out that you don't know what you're talking about, you keep insisting on being an expert, so I'm genuinely intrigued: How can you hack bitcoin by hiding secret text messages in a public, nonexecutable transaction text field? BTW, you may be the CTO of an unnamed online auction company and have some programming and security experience, but bitcoin has the top cryptography and security experts in the world working on it, including black hats. Hell, people literally quit their cushy jobs at places like Google, Facebook, JB Morgan Chase, Bank of America, and others of that caliber to come working on Bitcoin. Trust me, it's not under any threat, and with direct support of companies like NYSE, six of the world's top banks, Microsoft, and Google (among many many others) it's not going to disappear or become worthless any time soon. People like you who are still being dismissive of it are the ones who are becoming the ludite-like laughing stock. Incidentally, you should probably let your higher ups know about OpenBazaar, if they haven't heard of it yet. It's going to blow your online auction company out of existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Did It For The Cat Girls Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 6tails and Rassah should just drop the foreplay and engage in rich, raunchy e-intercourse right here and now. The sexual tension between the pair inches just a wee bit closer to a critical boiling point with each refutation, rebuttal, and character snipe that one of them makes towards the other. :v 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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