GamingGal Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I'm pretty pissed. I'm a server, as most of you can probably guess, and as with all restaurants we have a few coupons and Groupons floating around for people to use. I don't mind when people use them cause I'm all about saving a few dollars here and there, but what I DO mind are when they don't tip properly on their totals. Example: Couple came in and ordered food amount to about $63 or so. They had a Groupon that knocked their total with tax down to $20. And they tipped me $5. Do NOT tip on the discounted price. No, no, no, NO. It's wrong and you should never do that unless you want your server to hate you forever. If you are an ass who's going to do that, at least give them a heads up so they can give you discounted service to go with their discounted tip :V Also! While I'm ranting. Do NOT give them a vocal tip. Don't faun all over them and tell them how wonderful they are and then leave a 10% tip. No. You shouldn't build someone up and get them all excited and happy that their doing a good job and then slap them in the face. I'm sorry, but your voice doesn't pay my bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 First let me start off this post as I always need to start off conversations like this. If you live in the United States you have to tip. There is no way around this currently. Remember that coupons are essentially cash and they don't actually reduce the price of the item so you need to calculate your tip off the full original value of your meal. Tipping however, at least how it functions in the United States, is a practice that I wish we would abolish. In its current incarnation it only exists as a way for restaurants to get away with paying their employees less. The tip should simply be included into the cost of the meal and then the restaurant should pay its servers a fair and consistent wage to reflect the increased price. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikazuki Marazhu Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 someone has to do it. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 God damn it Mika why did you have to go and do that. I was going to spend probably the next few days acting all smart by quoting things from that show and pretending I came up with them all on my own. You ruined all my fun here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastryOfApathy Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I don't like it but I live with it. Only problem is that I tend to overtip out of fear of being that guy. At least I'm not one of those assholes that use Jesus to avoid tipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikazuki Marazhu Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 5 minutes ago, Derin Darkpaw said: God damn it Mika why did you have to go and do that. I was going to spend probably the next few days acting all smart by quoting things from that show and pretending I came up with them all on my own. You ruined all my fun here. I'm sorry! I swear I won't do it again T.T 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clove Darkwave Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) I always tip at least 15%, 20% if I really liked them. I am however starting to get sick of the amount of places trying to hit up customers for tips. I'll tip waiters or cooks (for those small places I like where the cook also runs the register and brings the food) but I refuse to tip the clerk who walked five feet and handed me a muffin from the case. That's fucking absurd. Edit: Except my hair stylist, I tip him way more. Edited January 25, 2016 by Clove Darkwave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamingGal Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 I actually don't mind tipping as a practice in the United States. Restaurants don't necessarily get away with paying less, either. If you make less than the minimum wage an hour when all your tips are divided hourly, then they have to comp you to the minimum wage. It's required. I just get annoyed that some people don't seem to understand the concept. 10% might have been okay some time back, but 20% is the norm now for a good server, more if they really stood out. I never tip less than 15%, and that's only if the person really fucked everything up. You can't blame the server for slow cook times or food issues necessarily, nor can you blame them for seating issues. The server is simply a go-between for you and the kitchen. Plus you make the situation as easy as you want it. If you're going to be that person who requests to move tables and asks why that table isn't available and bitches saying your bar drink has no alcohol in it and complains about stupid shit, then you've earned the general dislike of the workers and you've made your life hard. If something goes wrong and you're understanding about it and levelheaded, I promise things will go a lot smoother. And if I'm taking you to a table, there's a damn reason. Also, I've seen that video. I heard a Joe's Crab Shack somewhere in the United States was doing away with tipping. We'll see how that works. It's not that I doubt the system because I know Europe does it, but I just.....I'm torn. Yes, they could raise prices a bit and give you a steady pay of $12/hr (which I believe is what they are aiming for at the restaurant), but then look at the servers who are making more than that and are forced to settle for less. You might be scoffing saying that that's not the case, but in some instances it could very well be. At the restaurant I work, a local one that is quite popular, many of the servers (including myself) make about $600 a week. We work 4 days a week or so, and our restaurant is only open 5pm-10pm (11pm on weekends). On the night I made the most, I averaged about $40/hr. If we went own to the no-tipping policy, this would hurt rather than help. Yes, people paying with cash could technically still leave a tip, but most Americans would see the "no tipping required" and accept it as rule. As for credit card payments, the no-tipping policy would take away the tip line. It's an iffy thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I'll give you... Just the tip. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarcastic Coffeecup Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 In EU, a tip is given for exemplary service, which promotes good behavior and practices. I very much prefer this, less hassle in every way and gives meaning to the tip. I've always found the US tipping habits odd, but you also have lower prices in stores and you don't amount the tax until later. Perhaps you guys just like "hidden" fees. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 As I have been working in the service industry it's absolutely terrible that servers make so little money about 2.75 an hour as opposed to being payed a wage you can live off of it honestly shouldn't be the customers job to pay the employee to do theirs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallium Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I agree with coffee...its so weird that we HAVE to tip. It should be a nice gesture rather than a necessity for an employee to make good money because they cant get that from their job alone. But I mean even if the employees did get a good wage I feel like we dug ourselves into a habit/ritual that if people didnt tip at every meal it'd be considered rude. Sure tips are nice, but I always wonder why we never tip the garbage man for a job well done, it just leads me to feel its a requirement in industry rather than an extra show of appreciation for client satisfaction with the employee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endless/Nameless Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I always try to leave at least $2... I usually can't afford much more. If I were rich I'd give everyone $100 lol One thing that I find fusterating is that with all this online shopping and stuff nowadays, people don't tend to carry a lot of cash now (I don't at least). I really hate getting to a restaurant and finding out at the last minute that I don't have anything to tip with. I know some restaurants have that deal where you can write a tip amount on your bill to be taken out with your debit card, but it's confusing as hell, and last time I used it, the charge never even came thru. If we're gonna keep up this tipping tradition, we gotta modernize the way we go about it or something... EVERYONE should make at LEAST minimum wage. It's damn silly they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) If you, as an American, cant afford to tip your server a decent amount, you shouldnt fucking go out to eat because you cant afford that either. Nuff said on that, all arguments on tipping should be banned aside. I personally tip about 25% when I go out, which is rarely because budget. I also tip the pizza guy about 10%. One thing I never do is tip the latte jockeys. You get paid a wage, and you dont do shit that a machine cant do, so you get nothing, coffee fags. Dear Foreigners, your ignorance of our customs doesnt excuse you from tipping, and you are made much fun of after you leave the restaurant, jussayin'. Read a book about the place you are visiting, eh? Edited January 25, 2016 by Azure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 If I eat out, I plan on tipping at least 15-20%, maybe more if the server was being more diligent to the point of being a nanny. If I can't tip, I don't go to restaurants, 'nuff said. However, I do feel that it's an archaic form that needs to be done away with and replace that with an actual living wage instead of 2.50-3 bucks and hour. When I worked in Food service, working on Sundays were the worst and most servers dreaded working that day because you'd get large parties who were loud and demeaning to you and your coworkers. You get a party of 6+ people who are either lousy tippers, asking for you to switch food when they say that "their steak isn't to their liking" when it was cooked 3 times The same way, or would put shit like this on the table: Jesus doesn't pay for gas or rent, you protestant fuckwits! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 7 minutes ago, Zeke said: If I eat out, I plan on tipping at least 15-20%, maybe more if the server was being more diligent to the point of being a nanny. If I can't tip, I don't go to restaurants, 'nuff said. However, I do feel that it's an archaic form that needs to be done away with and replace that with an actual living wage instead of 2.50-3 bucks and hour. When I worked in Food service, working on Sundays were the worst and most servers dreaded working that day because you'd get large parties who were loud and demeaning to you and your coworkers. You get a party of 6+ people who are either lousy tippers, asking for you to switch food when they say that "their steak isn't to their liking" when it was cooked 3 times The same way, or would put shit like this on the table: Jesus doesn't pay for gas or rent, you protestant fuckwits! Sundays and fake jeebus tips were the worst. I once got fired for handing the fake money back to a guy and telling him to keep it cuz it didnt spend at the store. Another thing I'd like to bring up to people who poo-poo tipping or at least appropriately tipping is that if you dont tip, 9 times out of ten the server JUST PAID TO SERVE YOU! That's right folks, because of a little thing called tip-out. Busboys, Hostesses, Bartenders, all of them get a piece of your action, usually about 1% of your sales for each, though the situation is flexible within certain bounds. So if I sold 1,000 dorrah of foods and alcohol to fat white christian pigs, 10 dollars goes to each of those peoples, out of my tips. Which means if you order 100 buxx and tip nothing, I just paid 3 dollars for the pleasure of your awful company. Something you might want to think about when you go to a restaurant next time, you cheap ass fags. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 5 minutes ago, Azure said: Sundays and fake jeebus tips were the worst. I once got fired for handing the fake money back to a guy and telling him to keep it cuz it didnt spend at the store. Another thing I'd like to bring up to people who poo-poo tipping or at least appropriately tipping is that if you dont tip, 9 times out of ten the server JUST PAID TO SERVE YOU! That's right folks, because of a little thing called tip-out. Busboys, Hostesses, Bartenders, all of them get a piece of your action, usually about 1% of your sales for each, though the situation is flexible within certain bounds. So if I sold 1,000 dorrah of foods and alcohol to fat white christian pigs, 10 dollars goes to each of those peoples, out of my tips. Which means if you order 100 buxx and tip nothing, I just paid 3 dollars for the pleasure of your awful company. Something you might want to think about when you go to a restaurant next time, you cheap ass fags. My sister works in DC at one of the upscale restaurants. Her biggest gripe was the rich folks that spend close to 2k on Booze and steak while giving her piss poor financial tips and a less than 10 dollars as a tip. I'd pee in their 200 dollar cognac at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malibu Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Ugh, people who tip poorly are the worst. I usually leave a 20%-30% tip when I go out, since I budget the tip into my meal anyway. Though, I do live in California where I believe servers are already making minimum wage, so not being tipped isn't as bad as other states. I can usually tell when my service is going to be lousy, and if I'm getting a server who takes an hour just to take my drink order when the place isn't packed, I'll usually order my drink, leave a tip, then leave instead of getting bad service and leaving a bad tip. I've had places take literally 45 minutes to get our apps out on a weekday where it wasn't busy, so we just paid, tipped, and left to eat somewhere else. I try not to judge servers too hard because I know they have it rough, it's just a little disheartening to have bad service at a place that has good food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazen Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I tip people who give me shitty service poorly. If you complain about the tip you get nothing. I'm not paying someone to be rude to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyAshes Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Shut up about tipping and tell me where I get a $20 coupon for $63 of food! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Käpt'n Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 8 hours ago, #00Buck said: I'll give you... Just the tip. I wanted to make that joke! >:C 15 minutes ago, Saxon said: Why don't restaurants just pay their staff properly, and have 'it's okay, you don't have to tip; we took care of that already!' written on their bills? I agree, I hate how it's done in the US. The restaurant is their employer, it should be their job to pay them properly and tips should be reserved for excellent service. An exception could be places like posh clubs or casinos were costumers easily pay ridiculously high tips. As for how I handle tips, I only do it when I eat at a better restaurant when the service was exceptionally good. I wouldn't pay someone a tip at a kebap house where he just shaved some meat off of a bigger slab of meat. Or a waiter who did nothing but carrying my pizza literally two meters from the kitchen to my seat. When I order food and it arrives very quickly they can have a tip. But I honestly don't see why I should pay someone an additional 15% of the bill for writing down what I want to eat, telling the chef and then bringing my food to me... I'm not saying that I don't appreciate it, I just think that it is the duty of their boss to pay them for that! Service that I would give tips for are things like asking me what I like to eat and making recommendations according to that, or asking me if I want specific spices or salt on my food. I mean, my own job is centered around service as well and I don't get pissed off at my customers when they don't tip me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onnes Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 28 minutes ago, Saxon said: Why don't restaurants just pay their staff properly, and have 'it's okay, you don't have to tip; we took care of that already!' written on their bills? Given that the alternative to tipping would, in most restaurants, almost certainly be minimum wage, I'm not sure the employees would like that arrangement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willow Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 maybe one day we'll drop the tipping system but I feel like that's just wishful thinking. I don't wanna say it's unfair but it's really shitty regardless especially given the way that people tend to treat waitpersons. and this is part of why I don't work in food service. because the last thing I need is for someone to say that I've been paid in God's love or something. so I work in retail where the worst they can do is ask me if I've been saved or accepted Christ into my heart (it hasn't happened yet but I feel it will soon..) 57 minutes ago, Saxon said: Why don't restaurants just pay their staff properly, and have 'it's okay, you don't have to tip; we took care of that already!' written on their bills? well then there would be no motivation for servers to do a good job with their service. I'm pretty sure that's the only reason why tips are still a thing here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onnes Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 4 minutes ago, willow said: well then there would be no motivation for servers to do a good job with their service. I'm pretty sure that's the only reason why tips are still a thing here The last time I was in a country that didn't tip, I felt like the only way we could get a server's attention was physically grabbing them, assuming we could even find them in the restaurant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyAshes Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 3 minutes ago, willow said: well then there would be no motivation for servers to do a good job with their service. I'm pretty sure that's the only reason why tips are still a thing here Because the paycheque you get in exchange for serving tables at a business, where the quality of service is a deciding factor in weather customers will return, is not motivation in itself? Like, I dunno, I've never worked in a field where there was tipping. Since I'm not getting tipped am I expected to slack off? Look, I'm just saying, I've put 20hrs into a maticulace clean plate since Thursday and if I could have been playing pinball on my phone until tips were on the table, I want someone to tell me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamingGal Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 46 minutes ago, Onnes said: Given that the alternative to tipping would, in most restaurants, almost certainly be minimum wage, I'm not sure the employees would like that arrangement. Refer to my above long post :3 At the restaurant I work at, we make a killing, way more than minimum wage (about 3x for our area) and something like that would screw us over rather than help. As I also stated, most Americans would see the "no need to tip!" thing and not think twice about it. Sadly, most aren't as kind as you'd like to hope. If they knew the "tip" was taken care of, they wouldn't tip on top of that. I once had a customer pay for another customer's meal. The payer tipped about 15%, which was nice and all. Part of me half hoped the other person would tip as well since, well, they came in expecting to spend money and tip, but they took the free food and left. I feel like that would be what everyone would do if tipping was done away with. 1 minute ago, Onnes said: The last time I was in a country that didn't tip, I felt like the only way we could get a server's attention was physically grabbing them, assuming we could even find them in the restaurant. This also. Do you know how much better quality of service you get when the server knows a 20% tip on, say, a $100 meal is a possibility? I know I work my ass off every time because that money is based off my service, and the better, more on time, and kinder my service, the better my tip will be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willow Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 1 minute ago, Onnes said: The last time I was in a country that didn't tip, I felt like the only way we could get a server's attention was physically grabbing them, assuming we could even find them in the restaurant. yeah same. when I was in Austria I usually had to ask for the bill if nobody eventually came over to my table. but it was kind of nice because I didn't feel rushed to get out of the restaurant 1 minute ago, AshleyAshes said: Because the paycheque you get in exchange for serving tables at a business, where the quality of service is a deciding factor in weather customers will return, is not motivation in itself? Like, I dunno, I've never worked in a field where there was tipping. Since I'm not getting tipped am I expected to slack off? Look, I'm just saying, I've put 20hrs into a maticulace clean plate since Thursday and if I could have been playing pinball on my phone until tips were on the table, I want someone to tell me. I didn't say it made sense 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyAshes Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 3 minutes ago, willow said: I didn't say it made sense Oh well, okay then. Yeah. Maybe someone will crank it up a notch then: Your meal service, bought to you by Patreon Donations! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 2 hours ago, GamingGal said: Refer to my above long post :3 At the restaurant I work at, we make a killing, way more than minimum wage (about 3x for our area) and something like that would screw us over rather than help. As I also stated, most Americans would see the "no need to tip!" thing and not think twice about it. Sadly, most aren't as kind as you'd like to hope. If they knew the "tip" was taken care of, they wouldn't tip on top of that. I once had a customer pay for another customer's meal. The payer tipped about 15%, which was nice and all. Part of me half hoped the other person would tip as well since, well, they came in expecting to spend money and tip, but they took the free food and left. I feel like that would be what everyone would do if tipping was done away with. This also. Do you know how much better quality of service you get when the server knows a 20% tip on, say, a $100 meal is a possibility? I know I work my ass off every time because that money is based off my service, and the better, more on time, and kinder my service, the better my tip will be. For one people are not saying that servers should be paid minimum wage. They should be paid the wage appropriate to value they create for the company. If customers are willing to pay you that much in tips on average then there is no reason that they won't be willing to just pay that much for the food itself. Also the quality of your performance as a server is not correlated to the amount of tip you receive. The evidence is fairly clear about this. http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1110&context=articles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamingGal Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 3 hours ago, Derin Darkpaw said: For one people are not saying that servers should be paid minimum wage. They should be paid the wage appropriate to value they create for the company. If customers are willing to pay you that much in tips on average then there is no reason that they won't be willing to just pay that much for the food itself. Also the quality of your performance as a server is not correlated to the amount of tip you receive. The evidence is fairly clear about this. http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1110&context=articles Looking at what Joe's Crab Shack is paying it's servers ($12-$15 depending on their "worth" to the company), it still isn't a step up, but a step down for some instances. As for the value of a server to a company, how is that determined? By how long the server has been there? By how big of a section they can handle? How much they make in tips? How many comments they receive? And what about people who are just hired by the restaurant? How can you determine their worth in an appropriate manner? Sure, the customers might be willing to pay more on their food, but the bottom line is that it would still force some servers to take a pay-cut. And as I've stated, I wouldn't put trust in the customers to still tip if the restaurant was like "nah, we got you covered!" Also, I never said my service correlates to my tip, I simply said it was a driving motivator. What mainly decides tip, if we're completely honest, is the customer. Are they black? White? Hispanic? Young or old? Gay or straight? What's their religion? Believe it or not, these things affect tip the most. Below, I've linked a chart. It shows the same thing I've come to notice. Men tip better, especially gay men and men on dates. Foreign people generally don't tip well, nor do teenagers. Christians, also, tend to tip less. Something about the Lord being the provider and not money, or something like that. I can pretty much see a table sit down and within the few seconds of my spiel I can guess what my tip will be. Sometimes I'm wrong, but generally I'm right. Regardless, the lure of a 20% tip, even if I have a table I'm pretty sure won't tip that much, still drives me to do my best to get that money. Demographic Tipping Chart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinare Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Wait, $12-$15 is still a step down? waaat Until reading this thread I've been 100% on the side of servers, but now I'm starting to question if some aren't being a tad greedy by expecting huge amounts of money when they already make enough for what their job is. I agree that a tip system is stupid and people should not need tips (defeats the purpose of a "tip" then imo), they should be given only if the server did well and as an added bonus, but I do not think it's fair for a job that requires no education to think $12/hr is bad wages. I'd kill for that extra $3.50-$6.50 an hour over what I make and I had to get certification that wasn't free for what I do, not to mention it can be very high stress and physically taxing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamingGal Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 18 minutes ago, Kinare said: Wait, $12-$15 is still a step down? waaat Until reading this thread I've been 100% on the side of servers, but now I'm starting to question if some aren't being a tad greedy by expecting huge amounts of money when they already make enough for what their job is. I agree that a tip system is stupid and people should not need tips (defeats the purpose of a "tip" then imo), they should be given only if the server did well and as an added bonus, but I do not think it's fair for a job that requires no education to think $12/hr is bad wages. I'd kill for that extra $3.50-$6.50 an hour over what I make and I had to get certification that wasn't free for what I do, not to mention it can be very high stress and physically taxing. Yes, $12-15/hr would be a step down for some. You guys, you're thinking of your basic chain restaurants. In fact, the study @Derin Darkpaw quoted listed a lot of chain restaurants (Chilis, Applebees, Red Lobster, etc). I've worked at a Red Lobster before and I can attest that it's quite bottom of the barrel. The people that go there aren't generally wanting to spend extra on a tip. They're the type to ask about the price of all the drinks (since price isn't listed) and fuss about the food; it's just how it is. If you work at a chain like these, then unless you are a known server with a loyal clientele, you're going to have issue making money. I think the most I ever made in my two year stint there was $120 one night, and that was after busting my ass on a 12hr day. These are places where you're more of a go-between for the customer and the kitchen, not much else. Some places, though, are lucrative. In fact, some are very lucrative. Serving is not just what you see at Applebee's or Red Lobster. Serving is running around constantly carrying heavy as shit stuff. It's dealing with a vast clientele and whatever needs they might have. It's taking potential verbal abuse with a smile. It's memorizing an entire menu, generally one that rotates seasonally along with a daily special, as well as knowing individual ingredients and things to look out for in case of allergies. It's being able to answer any question concerning food, wine, tequila, ports, beers, desserts, etc. Serving is a job where you are constantly learning things, some places even taking it so far as to send you to training classes on various things. People say serving requires no education, and while it might not require a degree (although some high end places prefer a hospitality degree), it requires constant learning and relearning of things. You probably think I'm being greedy, but I invite you to step into my shoes one Saturday night where the entire place is sold out, which is around 400 people, and we do three turns of the entire restaurant (basically serving close to 500-600 a night). Nights like that there is no room for fucking up. You can barely hear your tables and you can barely move because everywhere you go there are people. The stress level can rise to astronomical levels seeing as one tiny mistake can throw off your entire night and get all your tables behind. And you don't have just three tables. Oh no, you'll have 6+ per section, generally with two or three 6-tops in each. My point is that for those doing not as well, the pay raise could be good. However, for those doing very well, it would be very harmful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 So from what I can gather from this thread and previous conversations I have had with servers that were in favor of keeping the tipping system their arguments seem to boil down essentially this "But I make so much more money then that. Business won't pay me what I make now." As a response to the this argument it isn't just about you. This is about providing a consistent wage to all employees in a large field. The current system sees individuals being paid less money based on things such as race1. Also the arbitrary nature of tipping leaves many people in a position where they can not form a stable financial plan and can through no fault of their own be put into a position where they are suddenly unable to pay their bills. Also @GamingGal why are using an assumption of 12-15 dollars an hour as what wage you would end up with. The only example we have of wage being set to something like that is a chain restaurant i.e. Joe's Crab Shack as you mentioned. You mentioned that the restaurant you are working at is not a chain restaurant so presumably they could pay their employees more then that. Also I don't understand why people keep wanting to point to Joe's Crab Shack as if this is the first time this has ever happened. It is not and there are examples of businesses that do not allow tipping that pay their employees from 15 dollars an hour at the lowest and it only goes up from there. This article details several business that have adopted a no tipping model and several of them are meeting with great success and opening new restaurants in light of the profits they have generated. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/business/economy/as-minimum-wage-rises-restaurants-say-no-to-tips-yes-to-higher-prices.html?_r=0 1.http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/soin.12056/abstract 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 20%? 25%?! WTF! Used to be 15% was the norm, and I would always tip 18% thinking I was being generous. Tipping also makes the food cost way more than advertised. "Oh look honey, this restaurant isn't too pricey. Things are about $17 a plate." WRONG! Add tax tip and it's in the $20's. Thanks for letting us know restaurant owners have to comp servers to the minimum wage. Maybe after many years of tipping, I should finally quit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Should be grateful they even tip over there, it's not a thing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamingGal Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share Posted January 27, 2016 3 hours ago, Rassah said: 20%? 25%?! WTF! Used to be 15% was the norm, and I would always tip 18% thinking I was being generous. Tipping also makes the food cost way more than advertised. "Oh look honey, this restaurant isn't too pricey. Things are about $17 a plate." WRONG! Add tax tip and it's in the $20's. Thanks for letting us know restaurant owners have to comp servers to the minimum wage. Maybe after many years of tipping, I should finally quit. Even with the restaurant owners having to comp, we still don't see much of that money due to the taxes. I haven't had an actual paycheck the last six months. And so what 20% is now considered the norm? With the rise of cost of living, it only makes sense that the expected tipping amount rise as well. As for the tipping making a restaurant pricey, well, don't go out to eat if you don't automatically factor in the tip. Just that simple. 9 hours ago, Derin Darkpaw said: As a response to the this argument it isn't just about you. This is about providing a consistent wage to all employees in a large field. The current system sees individuals being paid less money based on things such as race1. Also the arbitrary nature of tipping leaves many people in a position where they can not form a stable financial plan and can through no fault of their own be put into a position where they are suddenly unable to pay their bills. Also @GamingGal why are using an assumption of 12-15 dollars an hour as what wage you would end up with. The only example we have of wage being set to something like that is a chain restaurant i.e. Joe's Crab Shack as you mentioned. You mentioned that the restaurant you are working at is not a chain restaurant so presumably they could pay their employees more then that. Also I don't understand why people keep wanting to point to Joe's Crab Shack as if this is the first time this has ever happened. It is not and there are examples of businesses that do not allow tipping that pay their employees from 15 dollars an hour at the lowest and it only goes up from there. This article details several business that have adopted a no tipping model and several of them are meeting with great success and opening new restaurants in light of the profits they have generated. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/business/economy/as-minimum-wage-rises-restaurants-say-no-to-tips-yes-to-higher-prices.html?_r=0 1.http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/soin.12056/abstract No, this argument isn't just about me. I want to see everyone who serves be successful cause I've been in that situation where you make nothing. At the job I had right before this one, in the summer it was way too common to show up for a shift and go home and hour later with no tables because things were just too slow. And on busy nights you could still come out empty if you got a bad section. I'm all about everyone succeeding, but if you look at how other servers feel, a lot of them are echoing the same feelings (apologies for the less than professional site; it was the only one that really bothered to focus on servers). I read a lot of comments on other articles where servers are voicing displeasure at this as well. The no-tipping thing isn't even an attempt to make a server's life easier. It's the restaurant industry trying to allocate more money to give to the BOH. That's where the problem lies, and the forerunners of the movement will say that. The servers make more money than the BOH, chef included, and the industry is trying to fix that. I have total respect for the BOH. They make the food, after all! But putting a cap on what a server can make simply to make it easier for the restaurant to slide money around? It's iffy to me. As a side note, part of the draw of a serving job is the cash money. With the no-tipping policy, you can say goodbye to that, and I can assure you that a lot of people would jump off that bandwagon real quick. There's a big difference in having a wad of cash every night versus a paycheck every two weeks/weekly. Another issue with what you're saying, the whole statement that a few bad nights can leave one unable to make ends meet. Not as true as you might think. Like I've mentioned, restaurants have to comp to the minimum $7.25/hr if your tips and whatnot don't equate to that per hour, which means even a bad week where you make little will still leave you money to live on. Sure, it'll see taxes, but you will still see some of the money. During the summer at my previous job where we did a lot of standing around with no tables, or would have one or two tables a night, I would still have a decent paycheck that made living affordable. Sure, I couldn't afford to go out and eat lobster tail, but I could afford my bills. I know I'm sounding greedy, and I'm trying desperately not to come off in such a way; I just want you guys to see the other side to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 @GamingGal I don't know where you are getting this idea that it is about paying the BOH more and that this isn't really about the servers. Every article I have read and person I have heard talking about this issue has focused entirely on the servers and I know that is why I argue in favor of removing tipping. Unless you are saying that all of the people I have heard are lying about their position and have some secret ulterior motive I don't know why you would say that this isn't about servers. Also again you are bringing up points that no one has argued for. No one wants there to be some sort of hard cap on what servers make. People are not arguing that servers should be locked at a specific amount of money that will never change. Servers should be able to receive raises based on the same criteria as employees in other fields of work. As for the article you posted it was mostly just a rehashing of the same points that the evidence clearly refutes and the parts that weren't are something I about to get into later in this post. Many of the servers quoted in that article were working under the assumption that their quality of work determined the tip they got while we have already established that the evidence shows this is not the case. Then there is the way that the article is just a collection of random quotes from selected servers. We have no idea of what the methodology used to get these responses were. How many servers were asked for an opinion on this? How many responses were not included in the article? These are important questions to answer if we want to gauge the validity of the article. One of the servers quoted in the article is even an author of other articles on the website. That is a clear conflict of interest. Also the article completely ignores the fact there are servers working for some restaurants that have done away with tipping and are very happy with the results. The other point you, other servers I have spoken too, and the servers from that article keep bringing up is that it feels good to get a good tip or come off a hard day work with more money. Of course getting tips feels better and there are large number of cognitive biases and little tricks our brains play to make this seem like the case, but it is important to understand that this is not really true. There is no legitimate reason to view money gained from a paycheck as any different from money gained via tipping. They are both money just the same. All of this and you haven't addressed the issue that tipping leads to discriminatory pay against individuals based on their race. Something that most people agree is morally and ethically wrong and is illegal in the United States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) I wish servers would just start walking off their jobs if they don't pay enough to live off of without the tips. Edited January 28, 2016 by Rassah 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZorroValdez Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 As a delivery driver, it's almost expected that you have to tip. Yet there are folks who don't believe in it and will smile at you while they stiff you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamingGal Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 @Derin Darkpaw Actually, the forerunners of the movement are quoting equaling out payment between the FOH and BOH as one of their main reasons[1-3]. One of their main issues is that there are so many good chefs and cooks, but it's hard to hire them on when the restaurant can only afford to pay them $9.00/hr or so. Compare that to servers making upwards of $40/hr at times and you can see why the BOH would have some issues with this. There is a definite difference in the pay each receives, but, as the saying goes, don't rob Peter to pay Paul. Don't put a cap on one group to raise the payment of another. Instead, why not see what the restaurant can do besides limiting others? As for the quality of service affecting tip, it has been shown to slightly affect tip amount[4]. People are random, which means studying the affect good service has on a tip is hard. It depends on what type of restaurant you go to, if you choose lunch or dinner, as well as things such as the race, gender, and religion of the people you are studying. From my four years experience serving (as well as from what other servers have told me), tipping is affected by good service. There have been times that I've given poor service and received poor tips in return. And then there are times, like tonight, where I gave great service and received wonderful tips and accolades (even being called "the best server they've ever had anywhere"). All of my tips were above 18%. I received one poor tip this evening, which was partially my fault. We were closing and I got caught up in my closing duties, which resulted in a slip of attention. I ended up with a 10% tip. Poor service = poor tip. I agree the article was poorly thrown together, so today I conducted my own little polling of my coworkers (which I'm sure you will find invalid since we all make rather well). There were six others working today besides myself. I approached them all and explained the concept: instead of receiving tips and an hourly pay, you would instead receive a wage starting around $12-15/hr with the possibility of raises based on performance/etc. Everyone immediately balked at the idea, most even stating they would quit serving. They stated the draws of being a server would be gone: cash in hand and chance to leave having made bank. I offered them the idea that with a "salary" you wouldn't need to worry about bad nights, but they all agreed that the draw of a really good night, of feeling accomplished and proud, overruled the idea of a lower, yet steady income. Only one server was willing to consider anything close to the idea. She said she would consider going to a restaurant where a 18% tip was automatically charged to each table, but she wouldn't be happy with the dropping of tips completely. I decided to see what my manager (who is also 50% owner) had to say on the topic. When I asked him, he immediately laughed and said he thought it was one of the dumbest ideas for the service industry. He agreed with me, as well as the other servers, that tipping helps encourage a server to give good service. When you take away that incentive and instead replace it with a set pay, you'll get people who give mediocre service. With a set pay, there's no penalty if you give mediocre service. You might not get rave reviews, but the restaurant won't get any new loyal customers because service is a big factor into if a customer returns. He said to try something: go to a restaurant and at the beginning of the meal tell the server you will be tipping them 15% no matter how good or poor their service is and see what happens. Sure, a server should still give great service, but you'll see servers who decide to slack. After all, their money is already made, so why do anything to go above and beyond? As for the discriminatory pay against individuals based on race, this does happen I'm sure. I used to be the only white girl who worked in a primarily black restaurant, Red Lobster. My customers, along with my coworkers, were either black or hispanic. Since I wasn't able to "bond" with the customers on a racially level, I was sometimes jipped and would make less than my coworkers. Along that same line, there would be times where I would make more, at which point it seemed the customers felt they were being taken better care of because they were being tended to by the only white girl on staff. In the end, though, it leveled out. As with your study, the one you link is a file I have to pay to view, so I wasn't able to read over it. However, I found one[5] that seems to have been done by one of the people, Michelle Lynn, who co-authored your article. When reading the article, I have two major issues with it right off the bat. When they start to detail how they did their gathering of data, they mention they collected surveys from customers who attended lunch at a restaurant that's part of a major chain and is located in the southern United States. As I believe I've stated, lunch shifts will always result in customers who tip less. Bills will generally be cheaper and the people are usually there for a quick in-and-out and are not focused on the service (lunch also tends to bring in the religious on Sundays, who are notorious for not tipping properly). With the restaurant being part of a major chain, this also lessens the experience people are looking for. The chains (generally Red Lobster, Chili's, Applebee's, Olive Garden, etc seem to be chosen for these studies) attract customers who, as I've stated, aren't there seeking 5-star service. They want a good meal, and we're just the go-betweens. There's a reason servers who've worked these places will fuss/joke about the expected $5 tip, which is an actual thing that happens. Got a $100 check? You get a $5 tip! You get a $5 tip! You get the point. As for the location of the study? It's a bit ironic to do a study on racism in the southern United States, a place that is known for being outwardly racist. Having grown up here, I can state that people here are definitely racist, so why base a study on race here? The statistics are bound to be skewed towards racism than, say, if they were set in California or New York. 1. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/10/14/danny-meyer-saying-soon-no-need-to-tip-at-his-new-york-restaurants/73934632/ 2. http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-10-15/u-s-restaurant-tipping-doesn-t-mean-better-quality-restaurants 3. https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/why-some-restaurants-are-doing-away-with-tipping/2015/04/13/cb1b5a86-c299-11e4-9271-610273846239_story.html 4. http://www.tippingresearch.com/uploads/TippingDiaryStudy.pdf 5. http://www.wagehourlitigation.com/files/2015/10/cornell.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexInsane Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 On 1/25/2016 at 8:52 PM, PastryOfApathy said: I don't like it but I live with it. Only problem is that I tend to overtip out of fear of being that guy. At least I'm not one of those assholes that use Jesus to avoid tipping. I've seen things like this and fake credit card shapes with religious shit on them at my place of work. If I ever found out who was leaving them, I'd make them eat their cute little fucking traps. All of em. Without ketchup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 @GamingGal You cant just lump everyone's motivation under a single umbrella. Like I said I desire to do this for the servers and other people desire to do this for the servers. Even if there are people who want to do this to ensure that servers can't make more then the cooks you can't just project that motivation on to everyone that argues for the removal of tips. To continue arguing that point in our current discussion here is disingenuous. As for the study yes people are random, yes conducting studies around tipping is hard, but that doesn't make collecting meaningful data impossible. The study that I originally linked to was actually an analysis of 14 different studies and examined 24 correlations between tipping and service. That is a lot of data to back up the point I was making and even it acknowledged that there is a small link between tipping and service, but the relationship between the two was weak enough to raise doubts about the use of tips to motivate servers, measure server performance, or identify dissatisfied customers. All of which are reasons the restaurant industry in the U.S. cites for its continued use of tips. All your little impromptu poll did was highlight a point I was already making. Yes I understand that servers like tips and that tips feel good, but this isn't about what servers think is better its about what is actually better. A consistent wage may not feel as nice, but its always going to have a better outcome then a fluctuating pay scale based on arbitrary matters mostly outside of the control of the worker. Also a related question to the above point. How much of your tips do you report as income on your taxes? Do you know that all of your tips are legally taxable income? The current system makes it laughably easy for servers to evade proper taxation. This is part of what leads some, not saying you or the people you know specifically, servers to prefer the current system as opposed to a guaranteed rate of pay. The constant assertion that a lack of tips would lead to lazy or poor quality service is demonstrably false. We can look at restaurant that have done away with tipping and see how they still give quality service and are in fact expanding and opening additional restaurants. We can look all around the world to countries that don't allow tipping and see that they still manage to give quality service. If the incentive of a tip was necessary to motivate servers you would not see either of those events occur. As for the issue of discriminatory pay it doesn't matter where the study was done, what restaurant is was performed at, or even what time of day it occurred during as long as it was internally consistent. None of those factors excuse the act of paying an employee less based on their race. Discriminatory pay in the U.S. is illegal no matter where it occurs and is morally disgusting regardless of geographic location or time of day. We know the South tends to be racist, but that doesn't make it acceptable for them to pay black workers less. At the same time your personal experience in regards to discrimination based on your race is also bad. By giving the ability to determine wage to consumers, not holding them accountable for this, and allowing them to do so almost entirely anonymously one opens the door to all sorts of biases and discriminatory practices. Instead by placing the responsibility for pay on the employer, who has to legally keep records of his paying practices, it allows us better monitor for occurrences of discrimination and to being able to hold the individual accountable for their racist wage practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vae Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 In response to one of the points made in the original post, and as someone who tends to have to live cheap because I have to: It's also a possibility that they're only there to begin with because they have the coupons. 25% of $63 is $15.75. $15.75 plus the meal price of $20 brings that up to $35.75. That's kind of a huge amount of difference from $20. That's almost double the meal price. For someone in my financial position, that's absurd. Now obviously I can't speak directly for these people and have no idea what their financial situation or motives actually are, but people's income levels are different. They do things for different reasons. When I go out, it's very rare because I usually have a hard enough time keeping enough food on my table at home to last a month. (Fun fact: $40 is about half a month's worth of food to me.) My point is, just don't dismiss people as all having the same income and the same availability to throw their money around like that. It doesn't have to reflect on you, and it doesn't have to reflect on them being a stingy ass. Some people just can't afford shit like that. And really, like other posts made in this thread, it shouldn't be customer's job to make up for shady wage practices by the part of the businesses. But obviously, servers can't really do anything about that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamingGal Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 @Derin Darkpaw I'm not lumping everyone's opinion of why they want this to happen under one umbrella, but it says a lot when the main people pushing this have the same reason. Their reasoning is a "mainly this, but also that I suppose" to get more backers. But I won't push the point. Can I ask a question without it seeming hostile? Have you ever served before? I feel like some of the people arguing the point are doing so because it DOES sound good if you're not in the industry. All people see is that we make $2.13/hr and that sometimes we have shitty nights. Yeah, sometimes serving sucks. You'll have a night that kicks your ass and customers who run you like a dog, but in the end it turns out worth it. I was talking about this to one of my coworkers who has been serving in multiple different restaurants for 15 years. She did the math on what she WOULD have made with the salaried $12-$15/hr proposed rate verses what she made at the end of her taxes in her past jobs, and even at the high end of $15/hr she still makes/made more serving with the system we have now. And she hasn't always been in the restaurant we are now; she's served in all sorts of places. This article let's a server do the talking as well, and he isn't hopping on the bandwagon either. He makes a lot of the same points I, as well as my coworkers, are trying to make. We take care of those who support us; our management automatically takes the tip-out from our tips, so no one is left with their hand out at the end of the night and servers ignoring them. And, desperately despite what you keep saying and what the surveys say, tipping is affected by service. Ask any server and they will tell you the same thing that I have. Even if you have the nice, sweetest couple in the world at your table, you can easily lose your tip by ignoring them, forgetting things, acting aloof, whatever. But you treat that same table with the utmost respect and attention and know when to give space, you could boost your tip by 10%. It might not be proven in a study, but I promise you that server after server will attest to this. The only time you will see a discrepancy is chain restaurants/lower end ones. If you go to Red Lobster or Waffle House, as I said, you aren't there for 5-star service and most likely haven't considered tip when you decided to go out. But head to a restaurant like the Sundial, which is a upscale restaurant at the top of the Westin hotel here where you are required to wear business casual or won't be seated, you expect top notch service and will tip according to how you are treated. As for how much we report, at the end of the night we cash out with management, which is where we turn in our credit card tips and lay out our cash tips. They total up everything, take out the designated tip-out, and then we keep the rest. Before we leave, we have to clock out and enter in what we made total in take-home tips. All are reported. Yes, I know tips are taxable income. As I said, I've been serving for four years, so this is common knowledge. It's the first thing you're informed of upon being hired. At a chain restaurant I worked at, a brewery, corporate would monthly send an email to the management team. The email would consist of a list of servers who were only reporting tips totaling to their credit card tips. The managers would take this information and confront the servers to get them reporting all their tips again. If your name continued to appear on the list, disciplinary action would be taken. This might not be how it is in all restaurants, but not all servers are skeevy tax-evading people. In regards towards service staying of high quality with no tips, this article echos all the concerns I've stated. The quality of service in a restaurant is solely driven by tips. Even if the table only has a $40 tab, I'm still grinning and laughing with them and telling them all about our food because what little tip they leave for me matters. Even if it's not much, it allows me to at least break even and not lose money. If you tell someone they can have a job and make $30k a year without having to really work for that money, do you really expect the quality to stay? I won't have to memorize what wines pair well with what food item because why should I? No need to go above and beyond for that extra tip because it's already calculated into their meal. Also, it's worth noting that even at Red Lobster, a server will make at least $15/hr on their tables. At my current work, it's normal to make $15/hr on one table, and we have 6-table sections that will turn (fill entirely up) at least twice. That's asking us, and plenty other servers in the same situation, to take a huge pay cut. Serving might not be consistent, but a lot of us make better than you guys seem to think. The only thing I don't have a response for is the instance of racism. Yes, it happens. Yes, it's awful. Do I think no-tipping is the way to handle it? No, not really, especially since some of those servers would probably still make more thru tipping. Do I have a solution for the racism encountered? No, but I wish I did. It's a harsh reality, and it's one I wish didn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 You foreigners are so pissy over your tips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagged Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Reading this thread, it sounds like working as a waiter in USA is basically renting a place from a restaurant to collect "tips" instead of being regularly paid by the boss for your awesome work On 26.1.2016 at 2:11 AM, Onnes said: The last time I was in a country that didn't tip, I felt like the only way we could get a server's attention was physically grabbing them, assuming we could even find them in the restaurant. As someone who lives in a country with no tipping system, this is not how I feel. The waiters are very considerate and hard working. Otherwise, they'd get fired. There also may be total restaurant income provisions involved but I don't know about that. The waiters/waitresses make a much higher minimum wage than in USA, which is seen in the meal and service prices but at least the increase in price is not hidden. That's downright bullshit when you're hiding the actual price of the service in the form of tipping. Another nice thing about not having to tip is that you don't have to think about how much will you tip to get the respect of your waiter. Say goodbye to insecurity! 8 hours ago, GamingGal said: [Snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakar-Kerarmor Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 On 25/01/2016 at 7:50 PM, Azure said: I once got fired for handing the fake money back to a guy and telling him to keep it cuz it didnt spend at the store. This is one of those things I don't understand about 'Murica. It sounds like employees can be fired on a whim for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maug Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, Hakar-Kerarmor said: This is one of those things I don't understand about 'Murica. It sounds like employees can be fired on a whim for anything. Each state has it's own employment laws,If its a 'right to work' state, they can fire you for no reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, Hakar-Kerarmor said: This is one of those things I don't understand about 'Murica. It sounds like employees can be fired on a whim for anything. I was once fired at the end of my first day at a theme park job because when we closed down and i was leaving i jumped over one of those ropes you make people wait in line with. Fired. FOR JUMPING OVER A ROPE. America has ridiculous employment laws and loads of pricks to fill out the management positions. People who were picked on in HS are the worst kind of boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikazuki Marazhu Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 27 minutes ago, Azure said: America has ridiculous employment laws and loads of pricks to fill out the management positions Ahh... The American dream. I tell you, I have friends who lives in the foreign countries who moved to America looking for better lives but ended up worst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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