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Autistic suicidal Trans man murdered by police


Crazy Lee
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Okay, seriously. Even in our Soviet Mordorstan cops still capture armed (with actual GUNS) criminals (not suicidal people) alive (badly beaten, but alive). What the hell is wrong with american cops ? Don't they feel bad shooting civilians in cold blood ?

Here, our cops take two bandits alive (with baseball bat and a gun)

 

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3 minutes ago, Therapy Sergal said:

Okay, seriously. Even in our Soviet Mordorstan cops still capture armed (with actual GUNS) criminals (not suicidal people) alive (badly beaten, but alive). What the hell is wrong with american cops ? Don't they feel bad shooting civilians in cold blood ?

Here, our cops take two bandits alive (with baseball bat and a gun).

 

You cannot compare Soviet Russia and the US. Haven't you seen any of the "In Soviet Russia..." memes? xD If you have superior, peak-humans in full riot gear enforcing the law then they will have any easier time putting someone down without deadly force.

Edited by KryptoKroenen
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21 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

I am just sick of all the vitriol against police.

I'm sick of all the abuse of power the police do and keep getting away with. There are cases of someone being brutally beaten or murdered by police at least once a week. And general stuff they do isn't even serving and protecting, it's extorting money for victimless crimes.

21 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Second if you are suggesting that police forces would kill someone who is trying to get corruption under control, you veering down  the conspiracy theory tunnel. 

Of they don't kill, they'll definitely make your life miserable and drive you out. Police departments seem to always get progressively more corrupt until they are forced to be shut down.

11 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

The cops were bum rushed outside of a dark room in the house. 

Why the fuck were they in a dark room in a house in the first place?

 

In the real world, I would try to figure out what's going on first, and shout to ask if anyone was in there and needed help.

Edited by Rassah
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5 minutes ago, Rassah said:

I'm sick of all the abuse of power the police do and keep getting away with. There are cases of someone being brutally beaten or murdered by police at least once a week. And general stuff they do isn't even serving and protecting, it's extorting money for victimless crimes.

Of they don't kill, they'll definitely make your life miserable and drive you out. Police departments seem to always get progressively more corrupt until they are forced to be shut down.

Why the fuck were they in a dark room in a house in the first place?

Corruption and abuse should be dealt with. But your making it sound like every cop is a bad cop. There are good cops and bad cops. That is never going to change. Police departments can try and mitigate it as much as possible, but it will never be gone.

And the cops in the OP were responding to a suicide call and were told a person was in a section of the house armed with a knife. Thats more than likely why their guns were drawn already at their sides (as the videos show thats the best course of action in the moment) when the dude rushed out of a dark room with a knife at them.

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
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2 minutes ago, Therapy Sergal said:

Somebody mentioned in this thread that american police is getting close to para-military ? Is it true ..?

Not even, that's a retarded statement. There are more of them and they are more prone to violence, but they are more out of shape and slacking than ever before. Even a military platoon straight out of bootcamp would wipe them easily.

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1 minute ago, Therapy Sergal said:

Somebody mentioned in this thread that american police is getting close to para-military ? Is it true ..?

It is. The US military budget is way too high, and the Pentagon keeps being forced to buy shit it doesn't need ("jobs program" for senators' districts that have companies making that stuff). So the Pentagon turns around and distributes their extra stuff to the police around the country. That's why our cops have thinks like military assault rifles and actual armored personnel carrier tanks.

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5 minutes ago, Rassah said:

It is. The US military budget is way too high, and the Pentagon keeps being forced to buy shit it doesn't need ("jobs program" for senators' districts that have companies making that stuff). So the Pentagon turns around and distributes their extra stuff to the police around the country. That's why our cops have thinks like military assault rifles and actual armored personnel carrier tanks.

More guns, supplies, and numbers is no reason to compare them to military. They are out of shape and ill-trained. In fact, I'd be willing to be a well-trained group of citizens with AR's could wipe out a score of police officers no trouble at all. Did you know they actually reject your application if you score above a certain mark? If you want to talk about militarized police then look at the SWAT.

2 minutes ago, Therapy Sergal said:

Now you two just contradict each other and aren't making it any easier ...

If it helps I have several good friends in the police force and in the military, if that lends credibility to my claims.

Edited by KryptoKroenen
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1 minute ago, Crazy Lee said:

But that's the thing. The whole purpose of being an officer is to serve the public, not yourself. It's like being a soldier in the military. The point is that you might DIE sometime during your service, which sucks, but it's part of the job.

Look, while I agree with most of what you say, any first responder's responsibility isn't to simply sacrifice their lives for the sake of others.  First responders are generally all members of unions (I'm sure if we look in the US we can find some unionized first responders, cause, ya know 'MERICA!' and all that) and there really ISN'T an expectation to simply sacrifice one's life for another.  They can even flat out refuse to do so.  Their employers can even be fined and held legally responsible for expecting such unreasonable things.  Even in war there as soldiers who refuse blatant suicide missions.

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SS_120704_Court,00.html

But this is the wrong argument.  This isn't 'Well the cops should shoot people like that' vs 'Suck it up and deal with a knife in the chest'.  Nothing can fix what happened to this person but we can ask questions.  We can not just ask if the police acted correctly but also weather they were trained and equipped correctly.  Weather the correct people who should have been there were there.  We have to ask if we, as a whole, can do better in the future from top to bottom.  This includes ensuring access to necessary mental health care for those who need it so as fewer situations like this even happen in the first place.  I don't think 'one bad thing' happened here, I think the damn system is kinda broken.

Here in Canada a case recently came to a legal conclusion (Unless we include the inevitable retrial bid).  A troubled teen high on E pulled a knife and threatened passengers on a street car.  The street car was evacuated and the teen was contained and surrounded by police.  He basically paced the street car like an irate cat and without lunging at constables, one of them fired upon him.  Nine times.  The first one severed his spinal chord.  He was on the ground after the first three shots.  Then a sergeant came up and tased him... Because Cana'Duh!  So that constable was criminally convicted last week though he's yet to be sentenced.  If the TPS had been able to respond faster with a taser equipped supervisor would have tased the kid, the police disarm him, the paramedics scoop him up and he's very ALIVE on Psych ICU instead of a corpse full of .40cal holes.  The system for responding to this was broken, the police were left waiting for someone with a taser, and numb nuts felt like just killing the kid instead of waiting around.  And you can see it.  There isn't just some shakey cellphone camera video; The street cars cameras have been synched up and released to the public with the Toronto Police Service and Toronto Transit Commission radio calls lined up as well.  You can watch the whole thing in detail.  He just.  Fucking.  Kills him.

(Warning: You will watch someone DIE if you watch this video)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/news-video/video-warning-graphic-content-multi-angle-footage-captures-sammy-yatim-shooting/article26936122/

This isn't just murder, this is a system that is broken and needs to be corrected because everything was wrong here.

But you know what?  You still see on news article comments people saying that it's 'what he deserves' for 'not listening to the police'.  There are people who think the system works like this: If you do not obey a peace officer, you should be subject to summary execution in the streets of a Canadian City.  That's the system 'working' to those people.  ...Our legal system thankfully doesn't actually work this way even if our response system is broken.

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5 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Corruption and abuse should be dealt with. But your making it sound like every cop is a bad cop. There are good cops and bad cops.

Good cops? Where are they at? If there were good cops, wouldn't they be reporting on and exposing the bad cops, instead of helping them cover up their shit?

FB_IMG_1449843761456.thumb.jpg.ad696bf2f

8 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Police departments can try and mitigate it as much as possible, but it will never be gone.

Exactly, because police departments are set up with an incentive structure that almost insures corruption over the long term. Why? Because we the people are not their customers. Their pay does not depend on how well they protect us. It does depend on how much they exploit and rob us, with their fines and tickets. We are the product.

12 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

And the cops in the OP were responding to a suicide call and were told a person was in a section of the house armed with a knife. Thats more than likely why their guns were drawn already at their sides (as the videos show thats the best course of action in the moment) when the dude rushed out of a dark room with a knife at them.

That doesn't answer why they didn't ask about the dude, or call out to him before going in.

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12 minutes ago, Therapy Sergal said:

Now you two just contradict each other and aren't making it any easier ...

Are cops stronger than military? No. Do the fat untrained bastards have access to military hardware and play pretend military tactics with things they should have no business playing with?...

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3 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Are cops stronger than military? No. Do the fat untrained bastards have access to military hardware and play pretend military tactics with things they should have no business playing with?...

So they are just well-armed bums, not para-military. Besides, I'm pretty sure regular citizens can get their hands on most of the things cops can.

Edited by KryptoKroenen
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God I have like 100 posts I want to reply to and not enough time to reply to them all...
 

48 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Mythbusters tested at 21 feet and then moved closer. Running with a knife at someone within that range at a person who has to draw a gun and aim, then shoot the knife has a good chance of winning.

I have an issue with Mythbusters. Half the things they do aren't truely scientific, and lack things like a control sample. The're entertaining but shouldn't be used to win an argument.
Also, in that video, the person with the gun has to COCK the gun before firing. The police already have their guns cocked and ready to fire.

Quote

 

and a better video shows why Cops shoot someone with a knife rather than use a taser. And shows that a minimun of 21 feet is necessary to react with a holstered firearm.

So the cops in the OP must have had them already drawn at their sides since the guy was in a room (bedroom) and rushed at them with a knife. Thats the only reason those cops didn't get stabbed.

 

If the 21 foot rule is true in every situation, like that video shows, then in order to truely protect themselves, all cops should walk around with their guns drawn in any situation, and be ready to shoot if the person in front of them even flinches, because else, they may be in danger. 

38 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

These cops were not aware what has going to happen, they were just told to investigate something.

13 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

And the cops in the OP were responding to a suicide call and were told a person was in a section of the house armed with a knife. 

Um, which one was it? Were they told there was a person with a knife or not? If they knew there was a person with a knife that was suicidal BEFORE they entered the house, they could have taken steps to protect themselves before entering the house without using lethal force.

13 minutes ago, Sylver said:

I thought it was a man to woman.

I think woman to man. Born with a female name, now uses a male name.

4 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Look, while I agree with most of what you say, any first responder's responsibility isn't to simply sacrifice their lives for the sake of others.  First responders are generally all members of unions (I'm sure if we look in the US we can find some unionized first responders, cause, ya know 'MERICA!' and all that) and there really ISN'T an expectation to simply sacrifice one's life for another.  They can even flat out refuse to do so.  Their employers can even be fined and held legally responsible for expecting such unreasonable things.  Even in war there as soldiers who refuse blatant suicide missions.

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SS_120704_Court,00.html

But this is the wrong argument.  This isn't 'Well the cops should shoot people like that' vs 'Suck it up and deal with a knife in the chest'. 

You misunderstand me. I don't expect cops to just sit down and let themselves be killed. However, the kind of training I have read that police get is this training that makes them think they're going to die on the job. And because of that they have an itchy trigger finger, and shoot people thinking the person is about to kill them or others. Instead, they should have the training and guts to use NON-LETHAL means to handle a situation even if it means they are risking their lives or safety, and only resort to lethal means if there's absolutely no other choice.

If European countries can have unarmed cops that can handle violent criminals, and most Western European countries are generally low in crime, then it must mean those police know what they're doing, and are well trained. And maybe the US police should look into that and do something similar. There will be situations were guns are necessary but it seems like with the US police it's the first resort, not the last. Any threat, and the guns are out. And with our gun fanatical society that shows our country has some serious shit to deal with.

Dear god you guys are posting fast I can't keep up. :P

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Just now, Rassah said:

I'm pretty sure regular citizens can't buy this Cobb-County-APC.jpg

 

That's the SWAT not the police, there is a difference between the two I hope you know. They never call in the SWAT for ordinary operations.

And actually ordinary citizens CAN get their hands on something like that.

 

 

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1 minute ago, KryptoKroenen said:

Are you really being an apologist for people who try to prank the fucking cops?

I thought the topic was that the police are out of control with their militaristic bullshit? Was I off topic?

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1 minute ago, Rassah said:

I thought the topic was that the police are out of control with their militaristic bullshit? Was I off topic?

They aren't "out of control with their militaristic bullshit" because that statement implies there is something wrong with a militarized police force or authoritarianism, which there isn't. They are out of control because they are poorly trained, unintelligent, and out of shape; hence their go-to option in self-defense becomes lethal force.

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48 minutes ago, Crazy Lee said:

God I have like 100 posts I want to reply to and not enough time to reply to them all...
 

I have an issue with Mythbusters. Half the things they do aren't truely scientific, and lack things like a control sample. The're entertaining but shouldn't be used to win an argument.
Also, in that video, the person with the gun has to COCK the gun before firing. The police already have their guns cocked and ready to fire.

If the 21 foot rule is true in every situation, like that video shows, then in order to truely protect themselves, all cops should walk around with their guns drawn in any situation, and be ready to shoot if the person in front of them even flinches, because else, they may be in danger. 

Um, which one was it? Were they told there was a person with a knife or not? If they knew there was a person with a knife that was suicidal BEFORE they entered the house, they could have taken steps to protect themselves before entering the house without using lethal force.

I

Which is why I posted 2 videos, because Adam Savage was using a 1911 that didn't have the hammer cocked back. The 2nd video shows cops going through training where they were unaware the individual they were speaking to was armed with a knife. And as far as your question about "which is it" you are misreading my post. The video shows cops who were not told the individual had a weapon (training simulation). As far as the OP story the cops responded to a suicide call. They were let in the house and were told the individual had a weapon/dangerous and suicidal. At that point (I am basing this on opinion) the cops drew their guns ans went further into the house looking for the individual. The guy came flying out of a dark room with a knife and the cops reacted accordingly, shooting the assailant. In fact I believe they hit him in the stomach. Which is not necessarily a lethal shot.

There was a police shooting in a city just south of me where the cop shot the suspect in the stomach and lived (idiot ran into a garage and came out pointing an airsoft pistol at the cop). In the case of the OP, the guy happened to die of his wounds. I see this as suicide by cop. My question is, why was a mentally unstable person allowed to get to where they ended up? Hold up in a room wielding a knife?

1 hour ago, Rassah said:

Good cops? Where are they at? If there were good cops, wouldn't they be reporting on and exposing the bad cops, instead of helping them cover up their shit?

 

Exactly, because police departments are set up with an incentive structure that almost insures corruption over the long term. Why? Because we the people are not their customers. Their pay does not depend on how well they protect us. It does depend on how much they exploit and rob us, with their fines and tickets. We are the product.

That doesn't answer why they didn't ask about the dude, or call out to him before going in.

Plenty of good cops, have friends who are city cops. Have friends who are in Vice. These are good people. Most cops are just trying to do their job. Your painting a very large brush against a group of people who go through more stress and duress than you ever have. I will say again, if you think its so bad then go and join up yourself and see how easy of a job it is. But seriously stop the whole knee-jerk reaction that all cops are bad crap. Its pathetic.

And we don't know if the cops did call out or not. They were let into the house by someone who told them the guy had a knife/or was armed. From the training I know regarding calls such as this I believe the cops would call out the guys name. Maybe thats when the guy rushed out of a dark room at the cops. Who knows. We don't have all the information. Making baseless assumptions because you want to blame the cops is just stupid.

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
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Since this is a thread about cops and how supposedly they are the problem, it was just posted online that in Seaside, Oregon a officer was shot and killed while serving a warrant. The  guy who was resisting arrest was shot with a taser and still managed to pull a gun and kill a cop. Just pointing out the taser didn't stop the guy.

 

Official Press Release on Officer Involved Shooting in Seaside

Seaside, Ore. – February 6, 2016 – On February 5, 2016 at 9:22 PM Seaside Sergeant Jason M. Goodding and an additional Seaside police officer made contact with Phillip Ferry, age 55, from Seaside. Ferry was walking down Broadway and was known by the officers to have a warrant for his arrest. Sergeant Goodding and the other officer attempted to place Ferry under arrest for the felony assault warrant. Ferry resisted arrest and the other officer deployed less lethal force (taser). Ferry fired a shot and struck Sergeant Goodding. The other Seaside police officer returned fire and shot Ferry.

Both Sergeant Goodding and Ferry were transported to local hospitals. Sergeant Goodding and Ferry died at the hospitals due to their injuries.

Sergeant Goodding was 39 years of age and lived in the Seaside Community. He is survived by his wife and school aged children. Sergeant Goodding graduated from Sherwood High-School and he earned a Bachelor of Science in Psychology from Portland State University. Sergeant Goodding was hired with Seaside Police Department in April of 2003. During his tenure he worked as a patrol officer, detective, and a patrol sergeant. Sergeant Gooding also dedicated time to his community by coaching several different sports teams within the Seaside area.

Senate Bill (SB) 111 establishes protocols when an agency is involved in an officer involved shooting investigation. SB 111 mandates a separate agency lead the investigation. The Oregon State Police has been asked to conduct the investigation with the assistance of the Clatsop County Major Crime Team. The Major Crime Team is comprised of officers from Seaside Police Department, Astoria Police Department, and the Clatsop County Sheriff's Office, Cannon Beach, Warrenton Police Department, and the Oregon State Police.

There will be no additional information regarding the officer involved shooting until the investigation is completed....

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19 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Since this is a thread about cops and how supposedly they are the problem, it was just posted online that in Seaside, Oregon a officer was shot and killed while serving a warrant. The  guy who was resisting arrest was shot with a taser and still managed to pull a gun and kill a cop. Just pointing out the taser didn't stop the guy.

Your point?  He hadn't drawn a weapon yet and frankly, if both thought the guy was a risk to return fire, even with the taser drawn, the other arresting officer should have had his weapon drawn.  Even in the best case scenario where one of the officers had their weapon drawn, this guy still somehow managed to get a lethal shot off first.  Also, this is a man with a gun who was on the street, not an emotionally disturbed individual who was in their own home where the police were responding and were very well informed in advance of the situation by the 911 call.

You're attempting a pretty apples to oranges comparison here.

 

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14 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Your point?  He hadn't drawn a weapon yet and frankly, if both thought the guy was a risk to return fire, even with the taser drawn, the other arresting officer should have had his weapon drawn.  Even in the best case scenario where one of the officers had their weapon drawn, this guy still somehow managed to get a lethal shot off first.  Also, this is a man with a gun who was on the street, not an emotionally disturbed individual who was in their own home where the police were responding and were very well informed in advance of the situation by the 911 call.

You're attempting a pretty apples to oranges comparison here.

 

My point was was in the third sentence. You know, where I said "Just pointing out the taser didn't stop the guy" People made a stink earlier that tasers were not used. I happened across this story on facebook where a taser was used and didn't subdue an individual. And that individual ended up killing a cop. Its also pointing out that cops have dangerous jobs, where they are threatened on a daily basis. Heck, you should know this since you do those mock drills and such.

You want a more comparative story? Matthew Bolick died from being tased at his house. The guy was mentally unstable and the father called 911 stating "My son is out of control". The police arived and Matthew assaulted one of the officers. The first officer responded by shooting Bolick with a Taser, which had no apparent effect, Bolick then ran into the house, with officers pursuing him.They had to shoot him 4 times with a taser to subdue him. He later died at the scene as a result of being tased that many times. An autopsy concluded he died of what a forensic pathologist described as excited delirium syndrome or acute exhaustive mania.

The family sued the police department for excessive force even though the officers were cleared of any wrongdoing. The lawsuit was settled and remains sealed from the public.

Similar call. Unstable individual, cops were able to use non lethal force and the guy still died. Mathew was not armed. Had he been armed and charged at cops more than likely he would have been shot.

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
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3 hours ago, Rassah said:

Don't call police on people or for help. 

Depends on the officer. :V (I get the sarcasm)
But last time I called the cops on a stalker who was staking me at work, the police said that he was just an admirer. Turns out that admirer wanted to rape me  He followed me on the bus and when I got off and grabed me in an attempt to drag me into the park. I protected myself with a knife and the same cops scolded me and said "I should have called them and screamed for help>:V".

After I was raped?

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Just now, Rukh Whitefang said:

My point was was in the third sentence. You know, where I said "Just pointing out the taser didn't stop the guy" People made a stink earlier that tasers were not used.

So do you feel that if you can find a minority of examples of where tasers failed to stop a minority of subjects had not revealed that they are armed with a firearm, then then tasers should be abandoned and police lethal force should be deployed even if no firearm has yet to be demonstrated?

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Just now, AshleyAshes said:

So do you feel that if you can find a minority of examples of where tasers failed to stop a minority of subjects had not revealed that they are armed with a firearm, then then tasers should be abandoned and police lethal force should be deployed even if no firearm has yet to be demonstrated?

You missed the other news story didn't you? Or did you just ignore it? Just cherry picking at this point?

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Just now, Rukh Whitefang said:

You missed the other news story didn't you? Or did you just ignore it? Just cherry picking at this point?

What about it?  The taser was repeatedly deployed, he died of an unrelated cause as determined by an autopsy, and a civil case was settled out of court.  What is your point?  That tasers are not 100% effective at subduing people?  Because if so, no shit, nothing is 100% effective in every situation, not even firearms, so I don't see how that could be relevant.

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7 hours ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

I like how the cops always seem to shoot to kill. I always read on these and the guy is dead as opposed to just injured

6 hours ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

No warning shots? Not aiming at legs? Why not? Sounds better that than dumping the entire mag to upper torso, but what do I know, I'm not a US cop.

What on earth were they teaching you in the Finnish Defence force?

I thought centre of mass was the general standard everywhere when it came to the use of firearms.

 

6 hours ago, Hux said:

They should've shot the knife out of his hand! Just like in the movies!

You're a funny guy, I like you.

 

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11 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

What about it?  The taser was repeatedly deployed, he died of an unrelated cause as determined by an autopsy, and a civil case was settled out of court.  What is your point?  That tasers are not 100% effective at subduing people?  Because if so, no shit, nothing is 100% effective in every situation, not even firearms, so I don't see how that could be relevant.

Excited delirium is a  condition that manifests as a combination of delirium, psychomotor agitation, anxiety, hallucinations, speech disturbances, disorientation, violent and bizarre behaviour, insensitivity to pain, elevated body temperature, and superhuman strength. Thats not a direct cause of death. It lead to the mans death. But wasn't the direct cause. In regards to the OP how is a cop to know what a mentally unstable person is going to do? How do they know responding to a call if someone is having or is about to have a psychotic episode? Going back on the similar story I gave had Matthew been armed I can guarantee he would have been shot the moment he charged the cops, not tased. In the OP the individual was said to be armed and therefore dangerous. If I was a cop my taser wouldn't be what I grabbed. Why? Because thats known not to work subduing psychotic individuals. I would pull my gun out. Because at that point A) I am thinking about my own safety and B) thinking about what should happen if this individual escapes and runs out into the public.

 

But I still don't see anyone asking how it got to the situation it did. How did this individual get to the point that they were deranged in a room wielding a knife? The mother knew her son was mentally unstable. Was the appropriate care given, was he medicated, was he even on his meds during the altercation? Everyone is pointing fingers at the cops and I'm over hear asking how it even got to the point it did. Was there no sign leading up to this that there was a big problem? Seems to me his mental health network (whatever it was) completely failed him.

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
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4 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

In regards to the OP how is a cop to know what a mentally unstable person is going to do? How do they know responding to a call if someone is having or is about to have a psychotic episode?

Because that's why they called 911 in the first place?  A family member was emotionally disturbed, suicidal and had a knife, so they called 911.  This information is then forwarded to first responders as they are dispatched.  I'm sorry, if you're trying to argue that somehow the police couldn't have known before hand, then I don't think you understand how 911 and first responder dispatching works...  They totally understood.  They responded poorly.

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7 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Because that's why they called 911 in the first place?  A family member was emotionally disturbed, suicidal and had a knife, so they called 911.  This information is then forwarded to first responders as they are dispatched.  I'm sorry, if you're trying to argue that somehow the police couldn't have known before hand, then I don't think you understand how 911 and first responder dispatching works...  They totally understood.  They responded poorly.

You not getting what I am saying. I am saying the cops know they have a mentally disturbed person who is armed who may be suicidal. That does not mean the cops are going to know what that individual is going to do when they arrive. There is a big difference and I think you missed what I was saying. Had the person not been armed then tasers would have been used. But since the individual was armed and the cops had to locate them, they pulled their weapons out because a taser would not be useful in that scenario (reaction time and such). Not to mention the failure rate of tasers on mentally disturbed people. They were completely justified pulling their sidearms. Problem is, they dude bum rushed them from a dark room before they even had a chance to probably even speak with him. They reacted instinctively.

For all we know had the cops not had their guns drawn the guy wielding the knife could have killed or wounded one of the cops and then been shot by the other officer. So the story might have ended with either 2 dead or one dead and one wounded. And since I provided evidence that tasers don't always work, especially on mentally disturbed people what else should they have used? Their beanbag shotgun? Not exactly good to use in close quarters against a knife wielding mentally unstable person Tear Gas? I supposed that may have have worked gasing the house, unless the individual ran at the cops with the knife still...

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
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1 hour ago, KryptoKroenen said:

that statement implies there is something wrong with a militarized police force or authoritarianism, which there isn't

GTFO!

1 hour ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Plenty of good cops, have friends who are city cops. Have friends who are in Vice. These are good people. Most cops are just trying to do their job. 

Did you read the quote I posted? Here it is again.

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Sorry, there are no good cops. At best, they are just "following orders" to do bad things. And we know plenty of other people who used the excuse that they  "were simply following orders" to commit some pretty awful atrocities. Saying they're just doing it for the money makes it worse.

Oh, and "join to make it better?" Is that something like this?

b8Mq18v.jpg

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1 minute ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Not to mention the failure rate of tasers on mentally disturbed people.

Actually, let's mention this since you are attempting to establish it as fact.  What is their failure rate when used upon those who are emotionally disturbed?  If this is going to be a deciding factor that 'a taser is worthless on suicidal people or those with Asperger's' then what is the information you have on this?  Obviously you can't just be going by the two examples you've cited.  The first one doesn't even cite why the taser didn't work, or even if they just MISSED.  Your second example cites what the articles call an extremely rare condition. so surely you must have much more information, I imagine something statistical of that nature, of the ineffectively of tasers emotionally disturbed persons.  So please, before you continue, I must ask for the information that you are using to make this statement.

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16 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Actually, let's mention this since you are attempting to establish it as fact.  What is their failure rate when used upon those who are emotionally disturbed?  If this is going to be a deciding factor that 'a taser is worthless on suicidal people or those with Asperger's' then what is the information you have on this?  Obviously you can't just be going by the two examples you've cited.  The first one doesn't even cite why the taser didn't work, or even if they just MISSED.  Your second example cites what the articles call an extremely rare condition. so surely you must have much more information, I imagine something statistical of that nature, of the ineffectively of tasers emotionally disturbed persons.  So please, before you continue, I must ask for the information that you are using to make this statement.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/tasers-no-longer-non-lethal-alternative-law-enforcement

According to the ACLU since 2001 500 people have died from being tased.

http://www.tricitytribuneusa.com/tasers-not-always-100-percent-effective/

This article states that the first shot has a 69% sucess rate of working (when it connects)to subdue someone and it goes up the 2nd and third shot. But thats if the taser's barbs connect with the individual. Now Not sure if any stats have been put together for the sucess rate of tasers against mentally unstable persons, but I would like to see if such a stat exists.

 

Tasers are not a guarantee non lethal weapon. They have killed people, and they don't always connect the first shot. And they don't always stop a crazed person having a psychotic episode. Most tasers are a one shot deal too and have to be reloaded every time with a new cartridge. Which is not easy to do under duress or if an armed individual is bearing down on you.

 

Edit: So far I haven't been able to find any stat regarding the effectiveness of tasers on mentally unstable people. What I have found however are multiple stories about how the tasers didn't do what they were supposed to do and lethal force ended up being used on the mentally disabled. And this isn't a U.S only thing. Finding news articles from New Zealand and the UK.

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
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6 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/tasers-no-longer-non-lethal-alternative-law-enforcement

According to the ACLU since 2001 500 people have died from being tased.

http://www.tricitytribuneusa.com/tasers-not-always-100-percent-effective/

This article states that the first shot has a 69% sucess rate of working to subdue someone and it goes up the 2nd and third shot. But thats if the taser's barbs connect with the individual. Now Not sure if any stats have been put together for the sucess rate of tasers against mentally unstable persons, but I would like to see if such a stat exists.

 

Tasers are not a guarantee non lethal weapon. They have killed people, and they don't always connect the first shot. And they don't always stop a crazed person having a psychotic episode.

I'm still not seeing your argument here.  So Tasers can be lethal?  No shit, it's a conductive energy weapon.  So an any kind of physical contact carried out by a police officer.  Your point?  they aren't non-lethal, they are 'less lethal'.  Unfortunate things happen and always will, but the effort should always be to minimize those incidents as much as possible.  Let's not bother to list how many times usage of firearms killed people in America since 2001?  I think we can all agree that the answer is 'A whooooole lot more than 500'.

You said that Tasers were less effective against emotionally disturbed persons.  You didn't say that they were not 100% effective, you were specificly stating that they were less effective against emotionally disturbed people.  "Not to mention the failure rate of tasers on mentally disturbed people."  your exact words.  Now, please, explain why they are specifically less effective on emotionally disturbed persons as I already asked. Please don't reply with something that does not explain that.  You are using that to justify shooting people so back it up with some real info.  If you can't back it up... Why do you want to shoot them?

Edited by AshleyAshes
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1 minute ago, KryptoKroenen said:

What an intellectual, informed, and open-minded response. :)

Sorry, I could go into why authoritarianism is bad, building up from a foundation of positive, negative, and natural rights, and discuss historical examples of the evils of authoritarianism, but that would take pages and completely derail the thread. So, authoritarianism is bad, mkay?

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1 hour ago, Rassah said:

Sorry, I could go into why authoritarianism is bad, building up from a foundation of positive, negative, and natural rights, and discuss historical examples of the evils of authoritarianism, but that would take pages and completely derail the thread. So, authoritarianism is bad, mkay?

Why don't you PM me then if you are so convinced of your position, yet so concerned about derailing the thread at the same time. ;)

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Just now, KryptoKroenen said:

Why don't you PM me then if you are so convinced of your position, yet so concerned about derailing the thread at the same time. ;)

I also don't want to waste my time on someone who thinks Hitler was a swell guy.

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