Derin Darkpaw Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Saxon said: Recognising the execution of apostates and homosexuals as barbaric isn't 'problematic colonial thinking'. I was not defending such executions and your attempt to attack my points based on that is nothing but a straw man. @6tails Saying that particular event started this situation would be to ignore the relations between various European nations and those same Muslim nations that were taking place long before the United States even existed. Also your blurb about Islamic views on slavery is a gross oversimplification of that matter that you are using to justify the viewpoint of Islamic nations as barbaric. Edited February 12, 2016 by Derin Darkpaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Just now, 6tails said: Not even. I've got my copy of the Qur'an, shall I go ahead and read you the passage about the abd and ma malakat aymanukum directly or shall I let you read for yourself to discover the truth? Well, just so you can read, it's 24:32. You're even told to PIOUSLY submit yourself to slavery. Or you can read an actual account of how slavery was viewed and used historically throughout the Islamic and Muslim word rather then rely on taking a single passage from one book and using it justify bigotry towards a population. Slavery in Islam arose entirely out of a historical context that already condoned slavery not just in Muslim nations but worldwide. There are also several ways in which Islam attempted to make the practice of slavery less common place by urging, without actually commanding, kindness to the slave (IV:36; IX:60; XXIV:58) and recommends, without requiring, his liberation by purchase or manumission. The freeing of slaves is recommended both for the expiation of sins (IV:92; V:92; LVIII:3) and as an act of simple benevolence (II:177; XXIV:33; XC:13). Again saying that slavery is some how a problem endemic to the religion of Islam ignores the historical context under which the practice of slavery originated both in Muslim countries and world wide. http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexInsane Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) I sometimes wonder if we just took all our politicians and sent them to Iraq with a note saying 'We're sorry', would they leave us alone? I somehow doubt it. Plus, we'd probably get dismembered body parts back in the mail and that's just gross. Nobody wants to open a severed head at breakfast. Edited February 12, 2016 by AlexInsane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Did It For The Cat Girls Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) 23 hours ago, Saxon said: Recognising the execution of apostates and homosexuals as barbaric isn't 'problematic colonial thinking'. It is when you're aiming to change certain aspects of those countries by supporting terrorist elements (America's unique, muted relationship with ISIS), when you overthrow relatively competent national leaders in honor of your own geopolitical interests (NATO's destruction of Libya and the overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi), or when you assist in establishing an alien state on lands that were owned by someone else for centuries (the West's undying, unconditional support of Israel and its instrumental role in its creation). Hell, that's not even you trying to change these societies for some sort of nefarious motive veiled as the "greater good". This is outright domination. It really doesn't matter if a Muslim nation violently rejects the promotion or presence of homosexual activities or homosexuals themselves. Those are Muslim nations, not secular Western ones. Westerners aren't very much interested in abiding by the dictates of Sharia Law (and rightfully so), but I'll confidently posit that many observers of the Islamic faith, Middle Easterners, or non-Westerners on the aggregate aren't precisely fond of Western cultural mores either. To expect them to unconditionally adore and venerate everything about the West is wanton insanity. My own allergy to Islam is why I passively support the expulsion of violent Muslims from Western lands, but the nonsense that I've been subjected to in the Alt-Right sphere of the internet (and on this forum) is causing my supportive "Go team West! This non-white stands with you!" zeal to voraciously deteriorate at a geometric rate. And the backlash swelling in Europe isn't discriminative in any way. If the day comes when all non-native (see: non-white) "Europeans" are forcibly shown the door, the treatment dolled out will not differentiate between the Arabic Muslim whose ancestors have resided in that continent for two-hundred years and the newcomer that's been there for all but two days. And as for Muslims being either forced into tightknit ethnic/religious enclaves by stout language and employability barriers or by forming them of their own accord, the phenomenon of "natural segregation" unfolds here in the states as well: Everyone in the US (with a few noteworthy exceptions to the grain) more or less speaks the same language, eats the same food, and wears the same overall dress--yet notice how everyone pretty much does what humanity has been doing for tens of thousands of years: clustering amongst in-group members while consciously and unconsciously keeping out-group members..well...out. You and several other posters on this forum are innately talented abstract thinkers, but you all's understanding of how people work is fantastically weedy. Your stoic belief that the Western way is the ideal way is flat-out ridiculous and simply doesn't hold up to empirical or anecdotal scrutiny when one looks at how different peoples have responded to various Western cultural, administrative, philosophical, and religious concepts. The results normally turn out to be either interesting yet insignificant "successes", dismal failures, or outright rejection followed by sparks of violence. It's fine to harbor pride in your civilization's accomplishments (even though the meat of Western progress was cooked up by the English, the Germans, and the French while everyone else save for perhaps the Greeks, the Italians, and the Portuguese freeloaded), but all of this self-victimization mixed with egotistical chest-thumping is absurd. Edited February 13, 2016 by I Did It For The Cat Girls 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 10 hours ago, 6tails said: That's beyond simple. It's called human laziness. Why do the work when you can make someone else do it? There's no historical ANYTHING required to know that this specific inherent part of our nature is the root cause and origin. I don't entirely get what point you are trying to make here, but one can note that slavery historically existed within Muslim countries well before the creation of Islam as a religion. Islam did not create the practice of slavery within Muslim countries it simply responded to it. If you would actually take the time to read the link I posted you would see that it could in fact be argued that the creation of Islam led to radical improvements in the way slaves were treated within the Muslim world. It turns out the history and practice of slavery within Muslim countries is very different from the way the institution of slavery was used in the Western world. If one wants to discuss the topic of Islamic views on slavery it would help to educate oneself on the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 10 hours ago, Saxon said: " Its so easy and tempting to label other cultures as barbaric and in need of being saved through assimilation into our more enlightened culture, but we need to realize this line of thinking as the problematic colonial thinking that it really is." Some other cultures truly do have barbaric practices. Some of our own culture's history has seen barbaric practice. Accusations of barbarism are often warranted, and not a colonial over-hang. Many Islamic nations do have cultures which we would justifiably call barbaric. That's why it's such a joke that Saudi Arabia is the chair of the UN human right's council, when they violate human rights every which way every and each day. :\ Indonesia is the only 'Muslim nation' I can think of which isn't like this. Even Malaysia arrests men for not praying enough, and sends apostates to Saudi Arabia to be crucified. Again its tempting and easy to look outwardly and label negative behavior we see in others as something that is unique to them, but if you took the time to examine many liberal nations you would see similar abuses of human rights. The United States for example is very fond of creating extrajudicial areas in which they can detain individuals without evidence and then subject them to various forms of torture. Again within the United States people are denied basic liberty, freedom, and tragically too often their very life on flimsy pretense of supposed justice when only about 5-10% of cases actually go to trial. However when this behavior is seen within the Muslim world it is treated as emblematic of some sort of inherent failure of their culture. The practices you are referring are terrible and we should speak up against them and strive to see them ended, but we shouldn't use them as justification for viewing an entire culture as some how inferior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, 6tails said: There's a reason the term Barbarian is used to denote something horrible. Historically speaking, slaves in captured areas that were once Roman or similar territories were treated like shit, only the ones in/from traditionally Muslim countries got the better treatment, and we've got written documentation in Jefferson's own era and writing and those of his crew testifying to that. In fact, even your own link notes that Greek and other non-Muslim slaves had far fewer rights than Muslim slaves, and often received far harsher punishments. I'm willing to bet there are some accounts from those that survived/were freed somewhere in historical archives that would back up my assertions. But again to claim that their culture is inferior, which is what the word barbaric means and implies in this context, because they had the same disgusting practice of slavery as was seen throughout the world and history is just plain wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, 6tails said: They didn't have the same practice as you seem to have not noticed you have pointed out. In western cultures, slaves got ONE METHOD of treatment. Muslim countries? Muslim slaves got fair treatment, any non-Muslim got shit on. Pretty discriminatory and barbaric, if you ask me, adding classism into slavery. Yeah and slaves had legal recourse if they were mistreated and if it was found that a master mistreated a slave there were circumstances under which freeing the slave would become mandatory. Also if a slave in the Muslim world had children the children would not be separated from their family and if the father became free the children would also become free. This is just a small example of some of the differences. Their are a number of ways in which slavery within the Muslim world could be seen to be both better and worse then slavery within the Western world. However using the fact that they practiced slavery in the past as some sort of justification to label their entire culture as inferior or backwards is disingenuous. Also you have failed to demonstrate that the religion of Islam is the cause of this practice of slavery which is what your original argument was based on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 13 hours ago, Saxon said: Recognising the execution of apostates and homosexuals as barbaric isn't 'problematic colonial thinking'. You have to baby fundamentalists because they are kind of literally delusional and explain these positive things in your religious beliefs are ok but these negative things in your religion are not acceptable. We need that badly in non-muslim nations too sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half-Note Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 On 12.2.2016 at 0:35 PM, Vitaly said: Just find out which side bans bacon and choose the opposite. Hey I'll pick foreskin and bacon over annoying feminists on the Internet any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 You gotta love how these arguments descend into nitpicking over something that happened 2,000 years ago. The point is a bunch of people are being assholes today. What are we going to do about it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakar-Kerarmor Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 20 minutes ago, #00Buck said: You gotta love how these arguments descend into nitpicking over something that happened 2,000 years ago. The point is a bunch of people are being assholes today. What are we going to do about it? Blame our political opponents off course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamedog Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 this is simply cultural enrichment. every first-world country should embrace this culture of shunning women and keeping them away from all other humans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 50 minutes ago, Gamedog said: this is simply cultural enrichment. every first-world country should embrace this culture of shunning women and keeping them away from all other humans I personally like the touch of making them wear a black sheet that covers the entire body in the sweltering hot sun of the hottest region on earth. Must be so comfortable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamedog Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, #00Buck said: I personally like the touch of making them wear a black sheet that covers the entire body in the sweltering hot sun of the hottest region on earth. Must be so comfortable! girls are stupid, throw rocks at them Edited February 13, 2016 by Gamedog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monochromatic-Dragon Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I guess the only thing that trumps women's rights for the far left college crowd is appearing "not Islamophobic" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonnaise Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 1 hour ago, #00Buck said: I personally like the touch of making them wear a black sheet that covers the entire body in the sweltering hot sun of the hottest region on earth. Must be so comfortable! It's not like the girls get to go outside a lot anyway. :v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Looks like you need some Murica in Germany again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfyAmbassador Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 This has got to be fake: http://www.mmnews.de/index.php/politik/65238-linke-vergewaltigung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toboe Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 @WolfyAmbassador This? A fake? How could that ever be?! Don't you see all that evidence? There is no way that they made it up! :V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 15 hours ago, 6tails said: I bet you that applied mostly to the Muslim ones, and even for those that caused serious harm and mistreatment it, there was no proscribed punishment for the master. Still barbaric. Classist. Favoritist. Plenty of words that can be used. All are pretty much accurate no matter which direction the conversation may go. So basically what you are telling me is that without any evidence in favor of it and in fact in spite of evidence against it you will continue to assume the worst in order to support your argument. Also @Gamedog and @Monochromatic-Dragon how about instead of creating and attacking a straw man and assuming things about what I or other members of what you call the "Far Left" believe you talk to them and actually address their arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamedog Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Derin Darkpaw said: So basically what you are telling me is that without any evidence in favor of it and in fact in spite of evidence against it you will continue to assume the worst in order to support your argument. Also @Gamedog and @Monochromatic-Dragon how about instead of creating and attacking a straw man and assuming things about what I or other members of what you call the "Far Left" believe you talk to them and actually address their arguments. I don't think I've ever talked to you in my whole life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 53 minutes ago, Gamedog said: I don't think I've ever talked to you in my whole life. Well we conveniently seem to both have the time to fix that should we desire. You seem to think that by attempting to argue against Islamophobia and bigotry people are some how endorsing the negative treatment of women that sadly occurs within Muslim countries. Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victrum Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 A couple of weeks ago I used a train to go to my classes, and there were a couple of kids sitting behind me. Those kids were really annoying, they were the kind of kids who watch montage parodies with the volume cranked all the way up. Anyway, when we reached our first stop, some arab kids passed by and threathened those mlg kids with some weird stuff. I heard threats about knifes and ak-47-s. Granted I'm from a poor area with lots of random shit, but that scares me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakar-Kerarmor Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Derin Darkpaw said: Well we conveniently seem to both have the time to fix that should we desire. You seem to think that by attempting to argue against Islamophobia and bigotry people are some how endorsing the negative treatment of women that sadly occurs within Muslim countries. Why is that? Now, I don't presume to speak for Gamedog, but I think it's something like this. Every time we see mistreatment of women, (in forms) which would be unacceptable in our western culture, any criticism is shut down as being 'Islamophobic'. Some of us are just fucking sick of hearing "muh culture" as an excuse for shitty behaviour, especially from people who appear to rank 'brown' over 'female' in the Oppression Olympics. If you agree that negative treatment of women is a bad thing, why would you defend the people who keep doing it? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarra Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Build a wall. Ask questions later. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 46 minutes ago, Hakar-Kerarmor said: Now, I don't presume to speak for Gamedog, but I think it's something like this. Every time we see mistreatment of women, (in forms) which would be unacceptable in our western culture, any criticism is shut down as being 'Islamophobic'. Some of us are just fucking sick of hearing "muh culture" as an excuse for shitty behaviour, especially from people who appear to rank 'brown' over 'female' in the Oppression Olympics. If you agree that negative treatment of women is a bad thing, why would you defend the people who keep doing it? It is possible to detest the oppression of women within Muslim countries without attempting to demonize an entire culture. I do not defend the oppressive patriarchal* system of government that takes choice away from women and seeks to oppress them at almost every turn. However I do not use my distaste of that aspect of their governance to label an entire group of people as barbaric or some how inferior. I feel that using such language contributes to an air of bigotry and prejudice within the Western world that causes a lot of harm to an other wise vulnerable population i.e. the minority of Muslims and Islamic people within said Western world. Since this forum is composed primarily of posters that reside within the Western world I will usually be taking the stance of opposing the labeling of Muslims and Islamic people, but it is all a matter of context. If I were to be confronted by some one who earnestly demanded or supported the oppression of women I would argue just as vociferously against that position. *While I do not generally condone the use of the term patriarchy as it is used by the Feminist and other movements I do however feel it is appropriate to describe the governance of these countries because in this case we really honestly do have a government that is run exclusively by men and does actively attempt to curtail the rights of women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 13 hours ago, Joel said: Looks like you need some Murica in Germany again I miss cowboy Reagan. :C Everyone forgets he was a movie star. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastryOfApathy Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 6 minutes ago, Butters said: I miss cowboy Reagan. :C Everyone forgets he was a movie star. He's rounding up drug-dealing commies in heaven now. ;_;7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Just now, PastryOfApathy said: He's rounding up drug-dealing commies in heaven now. ;_;7 He didn't go to heaven, Pastry, don't be silly. He's in Goldman Sach's Superheaven for the rich and famous. He's probably being served by all an black staff and drinking cocktails as we speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitaly Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, Mayonnaise said: It's not like the girls get to go outside a lot anyway. :v I even know why Edited February 14, 2016 by Vitaly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakar-Kerarmor Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Derin Darkpaw said: It is possible to detest the oppression of women within Muslim countries without attempting to demonize an entire culture. Off course it is. I have no problem with Islamic culture, as far as food, music, dress, religious expression, and customs as a whole are concerned. The problem occurs when I say "Here is an example of misogynistic* assholery done by Muslims." I get labelled as a dirty racist islamophobe who wants to kill all brown people. And it's not like I only focus on Muslims, I detest all forms of bigotry (except against elves). That is my problem with the term Islamophobia. If you think someone is being a racist dickhead, call them a racist dickhead. Don't invent a special word for one particular culture, and don't use it to deflect any and all criticism. *: Actual misogyny, not the tumblr variant. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamedog Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 11 hours ago, Derin Darkpaw said: Well we conveniently seem to both have the time to fix that should we desire. You seem to think that by attempting to argue against Islamophobia and bigotry people are some how endorsing the negative treatment of women that sadly occurs within Muslim countries. Why is that? The thing is when you argue "against islamophobia", you're defending the negative treatment of women shats happening with these women is wrong and should not be tolerated at all and yet here you are defending this religion why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 6 hours ago, Hakar-Kerarmor said: Off course it is. I have no problem with Islamic culture, as far as food, music, dress, religious expression, and customs as a whole are concerned. The problem occurs when I say "Here is an example of misogynistic* assholery done by Muslims." I get labelled as a dirty racist islamophobe who wants to kill all brown people. And it's not like I only focus on Muslims, I detest all forms of bigotry (except against elves). I can't speak about previous conversations you have had with other individuals in the past as I do not know what you or the other individuals said. What gets me to speak out is not when people say "Here is an example of misogynistic assholery done by Muslims.", but when they say something along the lines of "Here is an example of misogynistic assholery done by Muslims and this is indicative of an inherent inferiority of their culture and/or religion." The former can be seen as a reasonable critique of some action that needs to be addressed while the latter as I keep arguing contributes to an existing attitude of bigotry. Muslims within the Western world are a vulnerable minority who are too often the victims of bigotry and this bigotry seemingly stems, at least partially, from the viewpoint that their culture is some how inferior. So I want to help people understand that while their actions may not mean they are Islamophobic they can indirectly contribute to the bigotry and violence that are perpetrated against Muslim/Islamic people. I know that I myself have not argued that any one in this thread is as you put it "a dirty racist Islamophobe who wants to kill all brown people." I personally try to be very careful with my words so as to avoid labeling people so when people try to attack my arguments on the grounds of what other individuals in the past have said to them I find it rather frustrating. 7 hours ago, Hakar-Kerarmor said: That is my problem with the term Islamophobia. If you think someone is being a racist dickhead, call them a racist dickhead. Don't invent a special word for one particular culture, and don't use it to deflect any and all criticism. The problem there is that people previously in this thread were already complaining about the use of the term racist to refer to Muslim/Islamic people so to avoid taking this entire thread down a tangent on the definition of race I decided to attempt to move that discussion to a separate thread. Please know that it is not my intent to invent special words I am only attempting to find words that people will not argue against the use there of, but it seems I may be caught in a kind of damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. 3 hours ago, Gamedog said: The thing is when you argue "against islamophobia", you're defending the negative treatment of women shats happening with these women is wrong and should not be tolerated at all and yet here you are defending this religion why? I previously addressed those points in a response to Hakar-Kerarmor earlier. 10 hours ago, Derin Darkpaw said: If I have this forum figured out you should be able to go directly to relevant post by clicking the arrow in the top right of this quote box 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 On 2/13/2016 at 1:54 PM, 6tails said: And if you'd really like to get into it, I've got my 4 years of Latin+Greek studies, where the Barbary Wars and lots of Muslim/Greek/Roman interaction were covered alongside the languages. I think I still have those books in storage. I remember getting a few detentions for making jokes at the poor fucker's expense. I'm sure I could find those particular passages that got my smart-ass mouth to open. Yes please, I love a good story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Did It For The Cat Girls Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, Derin Darkpaw said: Muslims within the Western world are a vulnerable minority who are too often the victims of bigotry and this bigotry seemingly stems, at least partially, from the viewpoint that their culture is some how inferior It (supposedly) stems from the disproportionate amount of violent and non-violent crime that Muslims commit in many Western European countries. There's a reason why these Muslim guys are so incredibly rowdy, however. Check out the map below. Notice how the most polygamous countries in the world reside within the Middle East and Africa. Now, check out this map: It's not a perfect fit, but there are some correlations that stand out. The Middle East (and much of North Africa) may seem nonviolent, but those areas are governed by draconian judicial mechanisms (Sharia Law, for example), tribal law, and clan retribution that help to curtail male antisocial behavior. When these control systems are relaxed or eliminated (as they largely were in Western European countries over the course of several centuries), entropy ensues, as the economic migrants and refugees that have been saturating Europe are mostly young, ambitious men of fighting age who hail from polygynous lands. Finding themselves in monogamous societies where each man and woman (for the most part) has access to a mate of sufficient quality, it soon becomes bitterly clear to these dynamic lads that there are few or no aspiring wives for them to groom and dine (as all available suitors have been gobbled up by the natives), blunting their reproductive prospects and in turn impelling them to heed the sultry siren's call of their inner male by engaging in risky, dysfunctional conduct that your local Swedes, Germans, or English aren't precisely fond of. Terrorism, rape, homicide, and robbery are some of these behaviors. It's even worse when you mix in a bit of unemployment because you then ultimately wind up with something like Nigeria's Boko Harem. British Journalist Matt Ridley touches on polygyny's disparaging impact on any society that has practiced it for an expansive stretch of time. Anthropologist Peter Frost has some neat stuff to look at as well if you're interested. I can't link to anything specific right now because the secure, filtered government connection that I'm utilizing doesn't permit me to access most of his personal blog. Edited February 15, 2016 by I Did It For The Cat Girls 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 The homicide map is crap. Nations simply under report crime so they look good on a map. Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan should be glowing bright red. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamedog Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Their culture is inferior to ours simply because it's so fucking barbaric and belongs in the Stone Age Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troj Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) The Left needs to understand that multiculturalism, tolerance, and mutual respect can only survive if everybody plays by a common set of rules. While leeway can and should be given to a degree, that you are an oppressed minority does not exempt you utterly from abiding by the social contract. I'd even go as far as to say that for humanity itself to continue to progress, survive, and thrive, as a species, we need to agree on a common, but reasonably flexible, set of agreements, rules, and values. If you believe, say, that illness is caused by demons instead of germs or parasites, that people of other races or tribes are literally evil or demonic, that your religion is the One and Only, that homosexuality is demonic or unnatural, that men and women need to be kept separate from one another and held to wildly social different standards which entail unequal rights, or that raping a virgin will cure you of AIDS, sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to join the rest of the world in a global society, then you don't get to bring those false beliefs with you. But, Derin's point is well-taken that too many discussions about Islam and Muslims veer off into disingenuous concern-trolling and outright xenophobia, and innocent Muslims do sometimes get caught in the crossfire. The average person is grossly ignorant about Islam, and this ignorance can lead to some rather dark places. Edited February 15, 2016 by Troj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinharia Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 28 minutes ago, Troj said: The Left needs to understand that multiculturalism, tolerance, and mutual respect can only survive if everybody plays by a common set of rules Many of us do understand this, but idealist members within the movement ensure that reasonable demands are viewed "As evil racism" thus keeping many quiet. We need more vocal people in the Left who aren't purely idealists but also take realism into account. But then the majority of our activists are 16 - 30. Young and full of idealism. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troj Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 15 minutes ago, Kinharia said: Many of us do understand this, but idealist members within the movement ensure that reasonable demands are viewed "As evil racism" thus keeping many quiet. We need more vocal people in the Left who aren't purely idealists but also take realism into account. But then the majority of our activists are 16 - 30. Young and full of idealism. Yep, and because they're young, idealistic, and inexperienced, they tend to misjudge people's motives, and the depths to which human beings can sink. I remember when the Nation of Islam showed up to my campus during a community conversation about the Muhammad cartoons. One dude in particular basically bullied everyone into polite, deferential silence as he ranted for 30 minutes about how Christianity condones homosexuality and drunkenness, and Muslims are trying to wage a "jihad" against depravity and sin. Notably, the women who came with the group stared at the floor in total silence as these guys (especially the one) ranted and raved. Meanwhile, my classmates all smiled and nodded politely. If people were offended, they certainly never shared it with me. Well, and what you've noticed is an age-old story: in attempt to avoid somebody else's excesses and mistakes, people will go whole-hog in the complete other direction, even if that also leads to equally-bad excesses and mistakes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Did It For The Cat Girls Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) On 2/15/2016 at 10:31 PM, #00Buck said: The homicide map is crap. Nations simply under report crime so they look good on a map. Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan should be glowing bright red. This doesn't really take away from my main point. The correlation between polygyny and violence is known. You are perhaps on to something, however: many (if not most) Middle Eastern countries--in contrast to Western European ones--have incredibly frail central states that are perpetually disempowered by the strong genealogical clan systems that hold these tattered states "together". I sincerely doubt that the Afghan government is entirely honest or transparent, but the threat of having your entire family wiped out by a mortar shell or sucked into an eternal blood feud if you happen to slight the honor of some chieftain's prized daughter does aid in stemming the tide of ungovernable male violence that is all too common in these sorts of lands. It isn't just polygyny that holds the Middle East (and a sizable chunk of the African continent) "back", however; these folk's cultural insistence on engaging in first-cousin marriage is an additional obstacle. This births an elevated degree of genetic relatedness between clan members but badly enfeebles the relative relatedness between non-clan members. You cannot run a liberal, democratic society off of this mating and familial system because each clan is largely out for its own self-interest and could care less of a hoot about the welfare of the greater society at large. To them, other clans (and when placed in the context of the individual, other people) cannot be trusted, cannot be relied upon, and cannot be placed in positions of authority. Democracy isn't going to flower in a society that can't maintain a reasonably high echelon of trust. Many people are going to ignore the unique cultural attributes of the Middle East's various countries wholeheartedly. They will naively and ignorantly presume that graciously dumping nonsensical notions of feminism, gay rights, and open elections on these people while flooding their lands with Western soldiers and MQ-9 Reapers will somehow metamorphose Iran into Sweden within a minuscule time span of five years. The West has tried subduing these people and changing them into democratic pawns at every attractive opportunity but it fails miserably--and quite hilariously--every single time it is attempted. Short of genetically engineering the ME's denizens into something like this: Or dropping a bunch of these on them: You aren't turning Afghanistan into Sweden anytime soon. Edited February 17, 2016 by I Did It For The Cat Girls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 No but Sweden is being turned into Afghanistan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Did It For The Cat Girls Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Just now, #00Buck said: No but Sweden is being turned into Afghanistan. What does that say about Sweden's indigenous population? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Doggo Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, I Did It For The Cat Girls said: You aren't turning Afghanistan into Sweden anytime soon. but the reverse is looking more likely each passing week i will leave now edit:fuckin shit, buck got there before me. But on the question of what that says about Sweden's own population is... not actually all that much. The democractic process is heavily undermined within the European Union, I'd be inclined to say that it's worse than in the USA. If things like mass third-world immigration were held to a direct referendum, there wouldn't be any going on right now. It wouldn't have even started. In 60s Britain, the Labour party imported a large number of third-world immigrants straight from, uh... west africa, I believe? The public were not asked before this decision was made. In Sweden's case, what you are looking at is the result of a couple decades' programming, information control, stifiling some voices, and legislation after legislation that when combined, effectively make opposition illegal. The problem is not so much the public but I'd say more to do with the representative system. Edited February 15, 2016 by Sir Gibby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 1 minute ago, I Did It For The Cat Girls said: What does that say about Sweden's indigenous population? Nothing. It has to to with the government and bureaucracy that are letting all the migrant in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Käpt'n Posted February 16, 2016 Author Share Posted February 16, 2016 On 15.2.2016 at 11:57 AM, Gamedog said: Their culture is inferior to ours simply because it's so fucking barbaric and belongs in the Stone Age Pretty much... What's worse is that they make no effort to change because they see their religion, which pretty much is their culture, as the ultimate solution to everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willow Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Käpt'n said: Pretty much... What's worse is that they make no effort to change because they see their religion, which pretty much is their culture, as the ultimate solution to everything. I'd argue that this is only true for those who live in the Middle East and not so much for the Muslims who live elsewhere. granted in this case you can make that argument since they're coming straight from Syria and all but it's something to consider. Edit: I'm also saying this because there are some aspects of Muslim culture that are specific to a certain region or country We actually had this conversation yesterday in my German class and our conclusion was that it has less to do with their culture and more to do with the fact that no one's really vein assimilated into the culture. they're just kind of thrown in there with very little education on the land itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Doggo Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 6 minutes ago, willow said: very little education on the land itself. or they just dont give a shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willow Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Just now, Sir Gibby said: or they just dont give a shit true but there will always be people like that I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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