Theological discussions

[Clove Darkwave]

13 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

The age of the writings of Genesis don't mean the belief in God is only that old though. Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, they all believed in God and followed Him and they lived far before Moses did (who is believed to have written the book of Genesis). Like I stated belief in God goes all the way back to the beginning of creation. 

If your looking for an actual date or timeframe that can open a whole different discussion. When did Abraham exist? We know he was the tenth generation from Noah but further from that its hard to say. Even harder to ascertain when Cain or Able existed (first recorded offering of worship to God). So again belief in God has existed since creation began. I am not sure hows that is dogging a question. Its also worth noting that we are basing on manuscripts, what is written. We cannot know how old oral tradition is. We know Adam and Eve passed down the knowledge of God but clearly that wasn't written down in a manuscript, it was passed down orally.

Okay fine, since writings and artifacts of Atum existed more than 3,000 years before yours did that also means oral traditions of Atum existed before yours did. Therefore Atum, Shu, Tefnut, Nut, and Geb created the world. We can play this game all night Rukh.

Remember boys and girls, Atum ejaculated into his own mouth for your sakes. Don't forget to say thanks.

[Saxon]

46 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

 

I hope I don't need to point out that some Scripture is poetic. Its also a very good practice to use context when reading Scripture, so see what it says before and after the passage in question. In regards to Genesis chapter 1, verse 6 you quoted. Here is 1: 6-8.

Then God said, “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.” 7 And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters of the earth from the waters of the heavens. 8 God called the space “sky. Using the NLT

And evening passed and morning came, marking the second day.

 

First what does firmament (KJV) or space (NLT) mean. What was the word being translated from in ancient Hebrew. Raqia is whats being translated here. Using Strong's Concordance you can see the definition is an extended surface, an expanse. What definition of the heavens are being used in the passage? Is the heavens being used to reference God's dwelling place or the heavens as the expanse of the sky? These are some of the other questions that should be asked. Without even digging very deep a possible conclusion could be that the expanse of the sky is being spoken of. The waters of the earth being water on the surface and the waters of the heavens being clouds and precipitation.
 

Really Saxon I expect a bit better to be honest, the lets pick up a Bible passage without context gets really, really old.

You said you 'believe in the scripture. All of it.' I'm glad you don't; you seemingly dismiss anything you know is ridiculous as poetry, but I'm going to talk about archaeology to show you that the authors of the bible actually believed the world was a disk floating in a sea, with a dome above it that held out a second ocean. 

As an aside there are more fundamental problems with genesis than the firmament, such as the Earth's existence preceding the Sun's, when it is known that the reverse is true. Bizarrely there are 4 days of creation before the Sun is created, which is very puzzling given that you can't have day and night without the Sun. 

We don't need to dismiss this as 'poetic' because we know that at the time this scripture was written it was widely believed that the earth was a flat world with a firmament spread above it, that held out an ocean of water, which explained why the sky is blue. This view traces its origins to the Ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians*, the Mesopotamians are likely the source of the flood myth too, because their lands, of what we now call Euxinia were rapidly submerged when the straits of Bosporous formed seven thousand years ago.   The firmament contained vaults for rain to pour through, and the stars spread across the firmament would occasionally come loose and fall to Earth, which is how ancient people explained shooting stars. 

Given that the idea of a dome with vaults precedes Christianity and was widespread all over the near east, this makes the meaning of the word 'firmanent' very obvious in the bible, and the fact they refer to it separating two groups of waters conforms to this theory; those are the two oceans the Egyptians described. 

The biblical concept of the Earth was something like Heironymous Bosch's dome world:

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Ancient_Near_East

[Rukh Whitefang]

1 minute ago, Clove Darkwave said:

Okay fine, since writings and artifacts of Atum existed more than 3,000 years before yours did that also means oral traditions of Atum existed before yours did. Therefore Atum, Shu, Tefnut, Nut, and Geb created the world. We can play this game all night Rukh.

Remember boys and girls, Atum ejaculated into his own mouth for your sakes. Don't forget to say thanks.

Okay so not sure if if I am being hard to understand here. Belief in God has existed since God created man. Since the beginning. So I am not sure how another belief can precede the beginning of time.  Not sure how or why your being so adamant (insert belief here) is older than belief in God (YAHWEH). We have no idea how long ago Issac existed, we don't know the exact time frame of Jacob. We know Abraham was 10 generations after Noah. And we have no idea the exact age of Adam and Eve other than it was the beginning. If your basing on manuscripts we have on hand we know that Genesis was written during the time of Moses. Yet it tells stories of faith of people who existed long before the time of Moses. So how can you even attempt to put a time frame on something like that?

[Saxon]

56 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Christianity itself and its age? Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism in a nutshell. But belief in God goes all the way back to the beginning in Genesis with Adam and Eve and those who followed. Its recorded that early of offerings being made to God in adoration and worship.  Noah has been called a man of faith, same with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. And they all existed before the time of Moses when the 10 Commandments and Levitical laws were written. So, my response is faith in God is as old as creation itself. And that basis is they all believed in the same promise. The promise that God said He would send someone to save His people.

Edit: Just realized I didn't answer the second half of your question, sorry about that. In regards as to why I agree with only one way for salvation, its because I firmly believe that truth cannot contradict itself. There cannot be multiple contradictory ways to heaven in my opinion. Jesus stated quite clearly "I am the way the truth and the life, no one can come to the Father except through me."

Adam and Eve demonstrably didn't exist though, because we now know that we evolved in East Africa, as recorded by a collection of fossils in the East African rift valley.

Since Adam and Eve didn't exist, there can have been no original sin and there is hence no need for a saviour. 

 

More over, we know that belief in the 'one true Judeo-Christian god' doesn't go back to the origin of the universe, because if you go back far enough Judaism originally began as a polytheistic religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism

Archeaeologists actually know how Judaism emerged, so they know it doesn't go back to the very beginning. 

 

Okay so not sure if if I am being hard to understand here. Belief in God has existed since God created man. Since the beginning. So I am not sure how another belief can precede the beginning of time.  Not sure how or why your being so adamant (insert belief here) is older than belief in God (YAHWEH). We have no idea how long ago Issac existed, we don't know the exact time frame of Jacob. We know Abraham was 10 generations after Noah. And we have no idea the exact age of Adam and Eve other than it was the beginning. If your basing on manuscripts we have on hand we know that Genesis was written during the time of Moses. Yet it tells stories of faith of people who existed long before the time of Moses. So how can you even attempt to put a time frame on something like that?

Except man wasn't created, and the beginning was long before man was ever around to see it. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by Saxon

[Feelwell]

On 3/23/2016 at 8:57 PM, Clove Darkwave said:

 

Remember boys and girls, Atum ejaculated into his own mouth for your sakes. Don't forget to say thanks.

 

[Clove Darkwave]

4 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Okay so not sure if if I am being hard to understand here. Belief in God has existed since God created man. Since the beginning. So I am not sure how another belief can precede the beginning of time.  Not sure how or why your being so adamant (insert belief here) is older than belief in God (YAHWEH). We have no idea how long ago Issac existed, we don't know the exact time frame of Jacob. We know Abraham was 10 generations after Noah. And we have no idea the exact age of Adam and Eve other than it was the beginning. If your basing on manuscripts we have on hand we know that Genesis was written during the time of Moses. Yet it tells stories of faith of people who existed long before the time of Moses. So how can you even attempt to put a time frame on something like that?

Okay so not sure if I am being hard to understand here. Belief in Atum has existed since Atum created everything. Since the beginning. So I am not sure how another belief (like yours) can precede the beginning of time. Not sure how or why YOU'RE being so adamant (God) is older than belief in Atum (ATEM). We have no idea how long ago the oldest Pharoahs existed, etc. etc.

So how can you even attempt to put a time frame on something like that?

lol

[Saxon]

Yet if I did that, no one would thank me. _{ungrateful little.....}

You're on a furry forum; you'd become our new God. 

[Toboe]

3 minutes ago, Saxon said:

You said you 'believe in the scripture. All of it.' I'm glad you don't; you seemingly dismiss anything you know is ridiculous as poetry, but I'm going to talk about archaeology to show you that the authors of the bible actually believed the world was a disk floating in a sea, with a dome above it that held out a second ocean.

Meh, I'd say that 'belief' in the bible can mean both into it's tales having true morals to being historically correct.

Even if that allows moving the goalpost.

5 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Okay so not sure if if I am being hard to understand here. Belief in God has existed since God created man. Since the beginning. So I am not sure how another belief can precede the beginning of time.  Not sure how or why your being so adamant (insert belief here) is older than belief in God (YAHWEH). We have no idea how long ago Issac existed, we don't know the exact time frame of Jacob. We know Abraham was 10 generations after Noah. And we have no idea the exact age of Adam and Eve other than it was the beginning. If your basing on manuscripts we have on hand we know that Genesis was written during the time of Moses. Yet it tells stories of faith of people who existed long before the time of Moses. So how can you even attempt to put a time frame on something like that?

Seems a bit self referential to use the bible as a source to date the beliefs it talks about. When someone wrote it into the bible, the writer could have made it up or exaggerated/misinterpreted.

 

7 minutes ago, Feelwell the Rabbit said:

Yet if I did that, no one would thank me. _{ungrateful little.....}

If you made a video of it...

[Saxon]

Somehow no religion managed to spot this. 

Curious, right? 

[Endless/Nameless]

1 hour ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Yeah I saw those posts and honestly I couldn't disagree more with all of them. The OT isn't just there for historical context. Its there because its just as important as the rest of the Bible. Everything in the OT points forwards to Jesus.

To be fair, I never meant to say that the Old Testament is totally irrelevant. I was just trying to make my point as simply as I could, which was that Christians are not under the Hebrew law as set forth in the Books of Moses, and our "lifestyle" [I dislike that term...] isn't the same as the warlike one often portrayed in the OT. I trimmed the fat to keep things concise. I also believe the whole Bible, and I know there is still much of merit in the Old Testament.

I'm trying to stay out of this thread so I don't become the Rassah of religion. That's not what I joined this forum for. But I've still been reading all your Great Posts.™

[Clove Darkwave]

1 minute ago, Saxon said:

Somehow no religion managed to spot this. 

Curious, right? 

Look, it took Nüwa a long time to get around to making humans out of clay alright? Leave her alone she's so cute.

[Feelwell]

On 3/23/2016 at 9:19 PM, Toboe said:

If you made a video of it...

 

[Saxon]

1 minute ago, Clove Darkwave said:

Look, it took Nüwa a long time to get around to making humans out of clay alright? Leave her alone she's so cute.

Early Greek ideas about the origin of biodiversity are so depressing, because they start so well and then go so wrong. 

'Life began in the sea, and the first complex life forms were fish'

Wow! It looks like the Greeks knew what they were talking about!

'The fish hauled themselves onto land and vomited out fully grown humans,'

 

[Rukh Whitefang]

30 minutes ago, Saxon said:

You said you 'believe in the scripture. All of it.' I'm glad you don't; you seemingly dismiss anything you know is ridiculous as poetry, but I'm going to talk about archaeology to show you that the authors of the bible actually believed the world was a disk floating in a sea, with a dome above it that held out a second ocean. 

As an aside there are more fundamental problems with genesis than the firmament, such as the Earth's existence preceding the Sun's, when it is known that the reverse is true. Bizarrely there are 4 days of creation before the Sun is created, which is very puzzling given that you can't have day and night without the Sun. 

We don't need to dismiss this as 'poetic' because we know that at the time this scripture was written it was widely believed that the earth was a flat world with a firmament spread above it, that held out an ocean of water, which explained why the sky is blue. This view traces its origins to the Ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians*, the Mesopotamians are likely the source of the flood myth too, because their lands, of what we now call Euxinia were rapidly submerged when the straits of Bosporous formed seven thousand years ago.   The firmament contained vaults for rain to pour through, and the stars spread across the firmament would occasionally come loose and fall to Earth, which is how ancient people explained shooting stars. 

Given that the idea of a dome with vaults precedes Christianity and was widespread all over the near east, this makes the meaning of the word 'firmanent' very obvious in the bible, and the fact they refer to it separating two groups of waters conforms to this theory; those are the two oceans the Egyptians described. 

The biblical concept of the Earth was something like Heironymous Bosch's dome world:

 

I stated that I believe in Scripture, all of it. And I stand by that statement wholeheartedly. You however are taking a passage out of context and running with it. I am very familiar with this tactic, I showed you what the original language of the translation was and meant and gave you a possible conclusion based on that. You have completely ignored that and somehow came to the conclusion that because I am not ripping Scripture passages out of context like you are then I can't possibly believe in all of Scripture. Just please stop with that.

Your basing your idea not off of what Scripture has said, going back to the ancient Hebrew texts, but of your own believe that because other groups of people believed in X, that must mean they believed in X in the Bible. The word Firmament is found in the KJV, which is old English. If you want a more direct Hebrew to English translation of that passage I recommend using the ESV translation. Its harder to understand but its usually a more direct translation.
You see other translation translate Raqia as an expanse, space, canopy, vault, dome. So what then?  What about other passages that state the Earth is a sphere found in Psalms if I remember correctly? I have to again point at using context.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Rukh Whitefang

[Saxon]

11 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Okay not sure what the attitude is for but its not needed at all. If discussions cannot be had without restoring to vitriolic comments then I see no reason to continue in conversation.

I stated that I believe in Scripture, all of it. And I stand by that statement wholeheartedly. You however are taking a passage out of context and running with it. I am very familiar with this tactic, I showed you what the original language of the translation was and meant and gave you a possible conclusion based on that. You have completely ignored that and somehow came to the conclusion that because I am not ripping Scripture passages out of context like you are then I can't possibly believe in all of Scripture. Just please stop with that.

Your basing your idea not off of what Scripture has said, going back to the ancient Hebrew texts, but of your own believe that because other groups of people believed in X, that must mean they believed in X in the Bible. The word Firmament is found in the KJV, which is old English. If you want a more direct Hebrew to English translation of that passage I recommend using the ESV translation. Its harder to understand but its usually a more direct translation.
You see other translation translate Raqia as an expanse, space, canopy, vault, dome. So what then?  What about other passages that state the Earth is a sphere found in Psalms if I remember correctly? I have to again point at using context.

I don't think you can claim to believe in 'all of it' if you believe that half of it is poetry. What do you make of contradictions?

I think you're ignoring the archaeological context in order to dismiss genesis as poetic. The Egyptians and Mesopotamians had very similar models of the Earth, with a two ocean system and a firmament, so it's clear that this is what is described in genesis. Notice that even if you substitute the word 'firmanent' with 'space', 'canopy', dome' or 'vault' that the meaning remains; the ancient Hebrews thought that they lived inside a giant snow globe that was submersed in a blue ocean. 

Later verses continue to describe the snow-globe world, such as Isaiah 40:22 which portrays the earth as a disc with a canopy spread over it 'like a tent'. 

If you're going to excuse the ancient Jews' mistakes as poetry why not excuse the Egyptains' same mistakes as poetry and worship Ra? Your standards of evidence aren't very high if they rely on neglecting the archaeological context to make your favoured religion look good. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by Saxon

[Rukh Whitefang]

21 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Adam and Eve demonstrably didn't exist though, because we now know that we evolved in East Africa, as recorded by a collection of fossils in the East African rift valley.

Since Adam and Eve didn't exist, there can have been no original sin and there is hence no need for a saviour. 

 

More over, we know that belief in the 'one true Judeo-Christian god' doesn't go back to the origin of the universe, because if you go back far enough Judaism originally began as a polytheistic religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism

Archeaeologists actually know how Judaism emerged, so they know it doesn't go back to the very beginning. 

 

Except man wasn't created, and the beginning was long before man was ever around to see it. 

From where I am standing Adam and Eve did exist, and the creation is how it happened. That's my belief and that's what I work from to give answers about what I believe. Take that as you will. I will try and answer questions regarding my beliefs as best I can as long as actual discussions are productive and not turned into a crap fest.

19 minutes ago, Clove Darkwave said:

Okay so not sure if I am being hard to understand here. Belief in Atum has existed since Atum created everything. Since the beginning. So I am not sure how another belief (like yours) can precede the beginning of time. Not sure how or why YOU'RE being so adamant (God) is older than belief in Atum (ATEM). We have no idea how long ago the oldest Pharoahs existed, etc. etc.

So how can you even attempt to put a time frame on something like that?

lol

And the point of this is what Clove? Clearly you and I have differing beliefs, you asked a question and I have you an honest answer. Thats all. You don't agree, I guess end of story? Posting something like this when someone is actually trying to have an actual legitimate discussion is exactly why I was hesitant to even jump into this thread.

[Clove Darkwave]

I see Rukh gave up. That's cool, since he can't make an argument that I can make for Kemetism in turn that supersedes it. I figured there would be no real answer to how one can be that way and I was right.

So let me go ahead and close what I have to say. Afterall, it's about time to say goodbye to Ra and Khepri for the day. And I do like me some Khepri Sun at the end of the day.

This insistence that your faith is the one true whatever and the only one that if ever did existed is exactly the problem everyone has with it, along with the insistence that your heaven is the truth etc. etc.

I for one am quite fine with the idea that your heaven is a heaven that people that follow your particular quantum 4th dimensional being get to see at death. Because hey other religions have heavens too and quite frankly I think some of them are better, and have nicer more kindly gods and other entities. In fact, I'd rather spend eternity in the Duat than five minutes in Jewish/Christian/Islamic heaven. It's a pretty okay place actually, could watch Anubis escort people and still get to say hello to Ra every day. Not to mention Thoth is around. I could talk to Thoth for a thousand years and not get bored.

Also I hear the Jade Emperor of Taoism is a pretty cool guy. That 226,800,000 years has made him pretty nice.

If any god exists, they all do. (I like the idea in Neil Gaiman's American Gods that they do indeed and in fact new gods of modern ideas have arisen) I'm not an atheist nor am I able to believe in any of them, but I do think that if we ever find them that'd be the coolest thing to ever happen. And I'd really like to give Isis a hug, she's like the sweetest mother ever. Toriel on steroids.

By the by, Druidic ideas have a striking similarity to quantum ideas.

[Conker]

1 hour ago, Clove Darkwave said:

But those ideas are more than three thousand years younger than the writings and ideas of Kemetic belief. According to them, Atum arose from the watery abyssal chaos Nu (or Nun) and from there he created Shu and Tefnut who from there created Nut and Geb who are all together along with their children responsible for keeping the order of creation so that Ma'at is upheld.

Geb was in the hearts and minds of humanity for longer than Yaweh or any other name you wish to call Him has even been an idea. So please answer my question rather than dodging it.

I wish to know more about these deities. Where might I find them (aside from wikipedia)?

I'm an atheist, and in my younger years I was a bit of an anti theist, but I also kind of love religious myth. Got Paradise Lost and the Metamorphosis on my bookshelf. I really want more. Lots of fun to be had. Plus I get to feel really smart and pretentious.

[Feelwell]

I remember when we were debating gods in the closet on this thread.... This escalated quickly.

[Saxon]

4 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

From where I am standing Adam and Eve did exist, and the creation is how it happened. That's my belief and that's what I work from to give answers about what I believe. Take that as you will. I will try and answer questions regarding my beliefs as best I can as long as actual discussions are productive and not turned into a crap fest.

And the point of this is what Clove? Clearly you and I have differing beliefs, you asked a question and I have you an honest answer. Thats all. You don't agree, I guess end of story? Posting something like this when someone is actually trying to have an actual legitimate discussion is exactly why I was hesitant to even jump into this thread.

So you dismiss the snow-globe world as poetry but the equally wrong Adam and Eve story is right? 

Palaeontology proves that there wasn't an Adam and Eve. Modern genetics which trace our ancestry show that there could have been no Adam and Eve. 

Do you just ignore these fields of science? What about the important medical implications which have resulted from knowing how humans fit into the tree of life? 

 

If it's intellectual debate you're after...I hate to break it to you, but no intellectual progress was ever made by agreeing to disagree. It is made by amassing evidence to prove or discredit different ideas. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by Saxon

[Conker]

War. War never changes. Furries debating religion. Furries debating religion never changes.

[Feelwell]

3 hours ago, Conker said:

War. War never changes. Furries debating religion. Furries debating religion never changes.

Make a game with that as the tagline, and I will buy 1000 copies.

One THOUSAND.

[Saxon]

2 minutes ago, Conker said:

War. War never changes. Furries debating religion. Furries debating religion never changes.

Furries cannot help debating religion; they hear there's yiff in hell. 

[Feelwell]

3 hours ago, Saxon said:

Furries cannot help debating religion; they hear there's yiff in hell. 

The more terrifying thought, what if there isn't yiff in hell?

[Endless/Nameless]

ITT: Smartypants masturbation. :^)

[ArielMT]

4 hours ago, Rhíulchabán said:

AMIDOINITRITE?!?~

Only if they have safewords.

8 minutes ago, Feelwell the Rabbit said:

I remember when we were debating gods in the closet on this thread.... This escalated quickly.

The only reason my goddess is in the closet is she's trying not to giggle like a mischievous child while spying who picks up the next golden apple tagged "for the fairest."  (Or maybe it's "for the most righteous," I don't know anymore.)

[Rukh Whitefang]

19 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I don't think you can claim to believe in 'all of it' if you believe that half of it is poetry. What do you make of contradictions?

I think you're ignoring the archaeological context in order to dismiss genesis as poetic. The Egyptians and Mesopotamians had very similar models of the Earth, with a two ocean system and a firmament, so it's clear that this is what is described in genesis. Notice that even if you substitute the word 'firmanent' with 'space', 'canopy', dome' or 'vault' that the meaning remains; the ancient Hebrews thought that they lived inside a giant snow globe that was submersed in a blue ocean. 

Later verses continue to describe the snow-globe world, such as Isaiah 40:22 which portrays the earth as a disc with a canopy spread over it 'like a tent'. 

If you're going to excuse the ancient Jews' mistakes as poetry why not excuse the Egyptains' same mistakes as poetry as worship Ra? Your standards of evidence aren't very high if they rely on neglecting the archaeological context to make your favoured religion look good. 

Genesis is not meant to be a scientific writing of creation. It has poetic parts written in it, its written in ways that those people could easily understand..  Genesis is written from the perspective of a human observer. Read further on in the Bible and people that bats were birds. Again Genesis is not meant to be a scientific manuscript, it was written from a human perspective, and people have misinterpreted what that perspective has meant. The Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo's theory that the earth was round. And its not because the Bible teaches that, its because the culture taught that. And they aligned Scripture with what the world taught.  I believe there is a passage in Isaiah and Job that speak of the earth being a sphere. You have to remember that people have come to wrong conclusions or conclusions that are not able to be made regarding creation. You have to be able to distinguish from literal, poetic, metaphoric and so on.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Rukh Whitefang

[Clove Darkwave]

16 minutes ago, Conker said:

I wish to know more about these deities. Where might I find them (aside from wikipedia)?

I'm an atheist, and in my younger years I was a bit of an anti theist, but I also kind of love religious myth. Got Paradise Lost and the Metamorphosis on my bookshelf. I really want more. Lots of fun to be had. Plus I get to feel really smart and pretentious.

Well here's a blog you can look at: http://kemeticallyspeaking.weebly.com/

But it's a bit hard for me to point you in any one direction. This is a lot of stuff I've learned in various scraps, blogs, twitters, websites, books, and scholarly articles. I'd suggest that you could just spend an evening doing a Google search and learning all that you can. Be mindful that the information takes a long time to sort out because we're talking about people who had thousands and thousands of years to work at this and Egyptian deities are known to merge for a time for one reason or another and share a domain.

You could PM me questions too I guess.

Anyway yes this discussion is rapidly turning absolutely silly and I've had my fun, so I'm going to post really fun stuff about Kemetic gods in here.

 

 

 

[Saxon]

10 minutes ago, Feelwell the Rabbit said:

The more terrifying thought, what if there isn't yiff in hell?

That's why it's hell. D: 

 

Regards Rukh's discussion, I find it very frustrating that I am berated as an idiot who 'takes things out of context' for talking about the snowglobe earth...(obviously that's poetry, what an idiot I must be! ) given that he accepts an equally silly idea, that all humans are the result of generations of horrible incest from a clay man and a woman made from his penis bone*. Wouldn't it make sense to dismiss that as poetry too, if that's the game we're playing?

 

*The Hebrew word for the bone taken from Adam resembles their word for 'Bacculum' or penis bone, which is present in many other animals. When Yehoweh takes Adam's bacculum he gives Adam his 'first scar', there is a tell-tale scar on the ventral side of the penis, running to the anus (you can check this on yourself, girls have one too, running along their perineum). 

Hebrews didn't think Eve was made from a rib, they thought that God took Adam's penis bone (duh, because this is a bone associated with reproduction) and used that to craft Eve, which explains why men don't have this conspicuous bone. 

6 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Genesis is not meant to be a scientific writing of creation. It has poetic parts written in it (not all of its poetic though).  Genesis is written from the perspective of a human observer. Read further on in the Bible and people that bats were birds. Again Genesis is not meant to be a scientific manuscript, it was written from a human perspective, and people have misinterpreted what that perspective has meant. The Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo's theory that the earth was round. And its not because the Bible teaches that, its because the culture taught that. And they aligned Scripture with what the world taught.  I believe there is a passage in Isaiah and Job that speak of the earth being a sphere. You have to remember that people have come to wrong conclusions or conclusions that are not able to be made regarding creation. You have to be able to distinguish from literal, poetic, metaphoric and so on.

How do you tell which parts are poetic? Clearly you're not deciding by comparing them to real world evidence. :\ 

Galileo didn't come up with the theory that the Earth was round; that was Eratosthenes of Ancient Alexandria. Galileo came up with the theory of heliocentricity, that the earth orbited the sun, instead of the whole universe rotating about the fulcrum of the Earth. 

The Catholic Church believes that the whole cosmos rotated about the Earth because the bible described the Earth as being 'fixed' and 'immovable'. The Church also believes that all heavenly objects were perfect spheres made of the fifth element, quintessence, and were therefore mightly pissed off when Galileo used a telescope to show them mountains on the moon. 

Many Catholic priests refused to even look through the telescope. If you refuse to consider fossil evidence that shows humans evolved, just like every other beast, then how are you any different? 

Edited March 24, 2016 by Saxon

[Clove Darkwave]

[Saxon]

11 minutes ago, Endless/Nameless said:

ITT: Smartypants masturbation. :^)

When I'm debating someone who thinks Galileo came up with the theory of a round Earth, yeah I do begin to feel like I'm an intellectual only engaging them for sport. :\ 

[Strongbob]

3 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Hebrews didn't think Eve was made from a rib, they thought that God took Adam's penis bone (duh, because this is a bone associated with reproduction) and used that to craft Eve, which explains why men don't have this conspicuous bone. 

 

That makes so much more sense now!   Are you saying that the bible was essentially censored so they didn't have to use the words 'penis bone'.  That is hilarious!

[Saxon]

Just now, Strongbob said:

 

That makes so much more sense now!   Are you saying that the bible was essentially censored so they didn't have to use the words 'penis bone'.  That is hilarious!

Unfortunately not; the word for 'rib' and 'bacculum' happen to be similar in Hebrew, because they both derive from the same Hebrew word for 'thin rod of bone', so they sounded similar. 

 

[Rukh Whitefang]

16 minutes ago, Saxon said:

 

Regards Rukh's discussion, I find it very frustrating that I am berated as an idiot who 'takes things out of context' for talking about the snowglobe earth...(obviously that's poetry, what an idiot I must be! ) given that he accepts an equally silly idea, that all humans are the result of generations of horrible incest from a clay man and a woman made from his penis bone*. Wouldn't it make sense to dismiss that as poetry too, if that's the game we're playing?

 

*The Hebrew word for the bone taken from Adam resembles their word for 'Bacculum' or penis bone, which is present in many other animals. When Yehoweh takes Adam's bacculum he gives Adam his 'first scar', there is a tell-tale scar on the ventral side of the penis, running to the anus (you can check this on yourself, girls have one too, running along their perineum). 

Hebrews didn't think Eve was made from a rib, they thought that God took Adam's penis bone (duh, because this is a bone associated with reproduction) and used that to craft Eve, which explains why men don't have this conspicuous bone. 

Never berated you nor intentionally called you an idiot. In fact I thought I made sure to be careful and be neutral in order to have an actual discussion. Its simply not stated in the Bible what people believed on the earth if the sky was a snow globe or if the world was flat. Its only written in a way that was easy for people of the time to understand. In metaphors that most people could easily comprehend. When the Bible does speak scientifically, such as the earth being round (book of Isaiah and Job), or ocean currents (Psalms) its there. But context is needed before an assumption can be made.

Also regarding Adam's rib. The story of Adam and Eve is translated from the original ancient Hebrew language (different than modern Hebrew) and the original Hebrew word used for rib is tsela, which means 'side.' There is no word in the Hebrew for rib at all. It is the same thing for the word 'hand'. In the Hebrew the same word for 'hand' is used for 'arm'. It can designate the entire arm from the shoulder to the finger tips.

This is from Strong's Concordance. http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6763.htm

Edited March 24, 2016 by Rukh Whitefang

[Clove Darkwave]

My face when my grandfather is on the phone telling me I have a "duty to God to convert everyone here to Christianity and get us all in church":

 

[Strongbob]

1 minute ago, Saxon said:

Unfortunately not; the word for 'rib' and 'bacculum' happen to be similar in Hebrew, because they both derive from the same Hebrew word for 'thin rod of bone', so they sounded similar. 

 

So this is yet another example of a small but arguably meaningful mistranslation of the original Hebrew texts?  Makes you wonder how many other mistranslations and other edits there are in the bible (Answer - a lot).

[Endless/Nameless]

Just now, Clove Darkwave said:

My face when my grandfather is on the phone telling me I have a "duty to God to convert everyone here to Christianity and get us all in church":

4real??

[Clove Darkwave]

1 minute ago, Endless/Nameless said:

4real??

Yes :\

[Saxon]

Just now, Rukh Whitefang said:

Never berated you nor intentionally called you an idiot. In fact I thought I made sure to be careful and be neutral in order to have an actual discussion. Its simply not stated in the Bible what people believed on the earth if the sky was a snow globe or if the world was flat. Its only written in a way that was easy for people of the time to understand. In metaphors that most people could easily comprehend. When the Bible does speak scientifically, such as the earth being round (book of Isaiah and Job), or ocean currents (Psalms) its there. But context is needed before an assumption can be made.

Also regarding Adam's rib. The story of Adam and Eve is translated from the original ancient Hebrew language (different than modern Hebrew) and the original Hebrew word used is tsela, which means 'side.' There is no word in the Hebrew for rib at all. It is the same thing for the word 'hand'. In the Hebrew the same word for 'hand' is used for 'arm'. It can designate the entire arm from the shoulder to the finger tips. This is from Strong's Concordance.

...It is stated, I have provided two examples where the world is described as a disc with a canopy stretched over it. Archaeologists know that near eastern people had thought the world looked like this for centuries before hand, so why would the Jews suddenly have a modern globe model? 

Isaiah, far from describing the Earth as round, describes it as a 'circle of land' with a 'canopy spread over it' 'like a tent'...how does that sound like a globe to you? 

The 'Ocean' currents described in Psalms are the well known Mediterranean sea currents which had been observed for centuries before hand...so no brownie points for spotting those. If they had spotted the deep western return flow currents, which oceanographers of the 20th century predicted before their discovery, then that would have been impressive...but let's use that fact to make things clear; Stommel and Munk predicted these currents using their brains, they didn't have divine wisdom. 

 

This is the paper which argues that in the Jewish creation myth, Eve is made from a Baculum, which may be of interest to you: http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/28/gilbert_zevit.php

 

[Endless/Nameless]

Just now, Clove Darkwave said:

Yes :\

Ambitious bugger

[Conker]

22 minutes ago, Clove Darkwave said:

Well here's a blog you can look at: http://kemeticallyspeaking.weebly.com/

But it's a bit hard for me to point you in any one direction. This is a lot of stuff I've learned in various scraps, blogs, twitters, websites, books, and scholarly articles. I'd suggest that you could just spend an evening doing a Google search and learning all that you can. Be mindful that the information takes a long time to sort out because we're talking about people who had thousands and thousands of years to work at this and Egyptian deities are known to merge for a time for one reason or another and share a domain.

You could PM me questions too I guess.

Anyway yes this discussion is rapidly turning absolutely silly and I've had my fun, so I'm going to post really fun stuff about Kemetic gods in here.

 

I don't suppose they can make it easy and just have their own version of the Bible with all their characters in one book? I imagine any translation would be hard as fuck to read, but if I can get through Paradise Lost, I feel like I can get through anything

Same goes for Norse myth too. Fuckin' Thor and Loki are bomb as fuck.

See, tha'ts the problem with the Bible. All the characters are boring/bland. No one is drinking from a mile long mead trough.

[Rukh Whitefang]

2 minutes ago, Clove Darkwave said:

My face when my grandfather is on the phone telling me I have a "duty to God to convert everyone here to Christianity and get us all in church":

 

Yeah no. His duty is to live like Christ and tell other people about Jesus, he (your grandfather) can't convert anyone, especially forcibly.

1 minute ago, Strongbob said:

So this is yet another example of a small but arguably meaningful mistranslation of the original Hebrew texts?  Makes you wonder how many other mistranslations and other edits there are in the bible (Answer - a lot).

Regarding Adam's rib. The story of Adam and Eve is translated from the original ancient Hebrew language (different than modern Hebrew) and the original Hebrew word used for rib is tsela, which means 'side.' There is no word in the Hebrew for rib at all. It is the same thing for the word 'hand'. In the Hebrew the same word for 'hand' is used for 'arm'. It can designate the entire arm from the shoulder to the finger tips.

This is from a Bible concordance, so I have no idea where Saxon is even getting this from, but its utterly false.

[ArielMT]

1 minute ago, Clove Darkwave said:

Yes :\

Is your grandfather's church one where churchgoers can tithe with credit cards?

[Zeke]

1 minute ago, ArielMT said:

Is your grandfather's church one where churchgoers can tithe with credit cards?

[Conker]

Eh while I'm here:

I read this a few days ago and found it fun http://www.theliberatedmind.com/2012/08/the-devil-satan-and-lucifer-whats.html?m=1

I can't claim much to the research since it's mostly Wiki articles, but I'll still go around and quote it as fact since i'ts a thing I read on the internet.

[Saxon]

5 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Yeah no. His duty is to live like Christ and tell other people about Jesus, he (your grandfather) can't convert anyone, especially forcibly.

Regarding Adam's rib. The story of Adam and Eve is translated from the original ancient Hebrew language (different than modern Hebrew) and the original Hebrew word used for rib is tsela, which means 'side.' There is no word in the Hebrew for rib at all. It is the same thing for the word 'hand'. In the Hebrew the same word for 'hand' is used for 'arm'. It can designate the entire arm from the shoulder to the finger tips.

This is from a Bible concordance, so I have no idea where Saxon is even getting this from, but its utterly false.

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/28/gilbert_zevit.php

It's from a professor of Biology and professor of Biblical literature and was first published in the American Journal of Medical Genetics in 2001. 

(You should actually look claims up and check them before you dismiss them as 'utterly false'.)

Edited March 24, 2016 by Saxon

[Clove Darkwave]

4 minutes ago, Endless/Nameless said:

Ambitious bugger

More like irritatingly persistent and insulting.

4 minutes ago, Conker said:

I don't suppose they can make it easy and just have their own version of the Bible with all their characters in one book? I imagine any translation would be hard as fuck to read, but if I can get through Paradise Lost, I feel like I can get through anything

Same goes for Norse myth too. Fuckin' Thor and Loki are bomb as fuck.

See, tha'ts the problem with the Bible. All the characters are boring/bland. No one is drinking from a mile long mead trough.

You should talk to my spouse @Sparkyopteryx to learn about Asatru (I think I spelled that right?) Did you ever hear about the time Loki made Thor wear a dress?

2 minutes ago, ArielMT said:

Is your grandfather's church one where churchgoers can tithe with credit cards?

Wouldn't surprise me.

1 minute ago, Zeke said:

If you donate a book Thoth buys you a library!

[Conker]

@Clove Darkwave I did! There was drinking in that story too. Though there's drinking in most stories involving Thor. He's pretty cool that way.

[Taikugemu]

4 hours ago, ArielMT said:

GODS ARE ASLEEP, POST SIN

[Endless/Nameless]

Just now, Zeke said:

My mom once got a mass-mailing letter from Andrew Wommack stating that he wanted to build a new building, but that the money he needed was in our wallets. 

She never paid attention to a televangelist again.