All these new mods

[evan]

16 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

Having read this, tbh, if you have a problem with how some of the mods work, then, why not when the next vacancy needs to be filled, I dunnoo...

Become one?

you just said that to people in a thread who did apply for those positions (Vae, Brass, Newt)

[Gamedog]

we need more than four mods.

 

19 minutes ago, willow said:

sounds bad, man. 

But that makes it easier to say the mods aren't doing their job

Ive wasted too much time trying to get shit done here.

Here, this is the last time ill ask for help. if this isn't answered, y'all aint doing your jobs:

why arent our reports replied to, to show ANY SIGN of it going through, being accepted, being worked on? I'm tired of reporting someone and hoping it wasn't lost in the fucking abyss. Even a simple "thank you, we will handle it" will suffice.

 

it honestly looks like nobody is fucking working

[FenrirDarkWolf]

Just now, evan said:

you just said that to people in a thread who did apply for those positions (Vae, Brass, Newt)

I don't even know who actually applied to be a mod. I don't follow any of the politics of the forums. I just play games.

[evan]

 

Just now, FenrirDarkWolf said:

I don't even know who actually applied to be a mod. I don't follow any of the politics of the forums. I just play games.

Then accusing people of not trying to affect the mod team is absurd when they tried to fit the process and weren't selected.

[willow]

@Gamedog

we can do that in the future if you want.

Just now, FenrirDarkWolf said:

Even if they're not mods here, but they know that bunch of other people aren't comfortable with something and have to back it up, I still don't understand why they just don't report the things.

it's a double edged sword. if we closed it before people would have probably complained

and to be fair, we did say that people needed to refrain from talking about folks who were either in relationships or just uncomfortable with it.

but in all honesty, people saying that they've talked to others outside of the thread about how uncomfortable they are with a thread or something is really vague. that could be they've talked to one or two people or a dozen.

[Luka]

Alas, I seem to have missed the drama!

[FenrirDarkWolf]

Just now, Luka said:

Alas, I seem to have missed the drama!

Missed it? There's ALWAYS drama on Phoenix Forums!

Missed today? Come back tomorrow! There'll be a whole new set!!

[evan]

Look, I'm not usually one to succeed at unifying opinion, and honestly with how stagnant some of us seem to be on the topic, there's no way that would ever happen. I'm gonna just throw my two cents out and stay out.

For one, I'm currently talking to several people who can confirm that one of those reports was not a troll, for starters and that should be in discussion currently. Second, passing the blame on the bystander effect is fair, but it's also ignoring the fact that people tried to resolve it by opting out or other means. The people who felt the entire topic needed to be removed did, or at the least are now accountable if they didn't. I got one offhand comment that I took wrong, and we resolved our differences without having to take the thread down. That doesn't mean that every fucking person who gets unwantedly tagged in that thread will. 

On the mod situation; displacing the problem of people feeling as though the site is grossly understaffed is not a personal attack. Referring to your personal lives being busy only proves that there is a problem. If the work is unrealistic for the number of people working here, why is it only that many working here? Failing to acknowledge that possibility seems to almost suggest that it's too difficult or that the mod staff feels they wouldn't have the personality to work with anyone else, and I seriously doubt that that's the sole reason.

I'm trying to avoid injecting my opinion on the fuck thread because honestly that's about as likely as getting this forum to agree on other shit like catcalling and at some point debating whether an inside joke should be allowed to tag others is going to turn into one of the biggest wastes of anyone's time. If you want to waste your time, be my guest, but at some point there's another reality at hand, which is dealing with how the triad of certain users, users of dissenting beliefs, and mods all interact. If that isn't at least acknowledged, then we can keep expecting petty drama for stupid fucking reasons until 2112. Whether or not this action is right or wrong is one discussion, but people being disgusted should raise the question of whether it is people who should just expect to enjoy socializing here, or people who validly want to be included in a way that doesn't marginalize their personal comfort.

 

1 minute ago, willow said:

it's a double edged sword. if we closed it before people would have probably complained

and to be fair, we did say that people needed to refrain from talking about folks who were either in relationships or just uncomfortable with it.

but in all honesty, people saying that they've talked to others outside of the thread about how uncomfortable they are with a thread or something is really vague. that could be they've talked to one or two people or a dozen.

different people would have complained. if the moral you're basing your decision on is "whether or not people complain", then that's not addressing the fact that this forum is so disjointed in opinion that no single decision will ever be accepted unanimously.

you're right that that is fair and some discourse was handled by simply talking it out. 

i'll go ahead and be forward and at least say that i was pretty fucking uncomfortable, and even when trying to run with what was known to be a joke i felt as though there was a hint of honest reason to be cautious. after discussing it with the other users, i don't feel this way anymore, but i also wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the comfort levels of those around you unless you're absolutely certain that they're out of place or unwarranted.

[Newt]

1 hour ago, evan said:

you just said that to people in a thread who did apply for those positions (Vae, Brass, Newt)

I actually did not apply to become a moderator, though I would consider doing so if the opportunity presented itself again.

[evan]

Just now, Newt said:

I actually did not apply to become a moderator, though I would consider doing so if the opportunity presented itself again.

my bad, but the point still stands about Vae, who's been incredibly vocal on the topic.

[FenrirDarkWolf]

1 minute ago, evan said:

my bad, but the point still stands about Vae, who's been incredibly vocal on the topic.

As I said, I didn't even know who's applied for mod, so I do apologise if it sounded like I was accusing people.

[evan]

1 minute ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

As I said, I didn't even know who's applied for mod, so I do apologise if it sounded like I was accusing people.

understood. the tone seemed attacking which is why i chose to speak, but it seems i misinterpreted you.

Edited March 29, 2016 by evan

[Spot]

Well, y'know, there is always Weasyl, where everything gets done the way it should in a timely manner. 

[FenrirDarkWolf]

Just now, evan said:

understood. the tone seemed attacking which is why i chose to speak.

Sorry, I didn't really mean to sound that way, I was just curious about why they didn't choose to report anything they've heard from others, no matter how few or how many there were.

Eh, as I said, it's not my place to judge what others do.

[Toshabi]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Well, y'know, there is always Weasyl, where everything gets done the way it should in a timely manner. 

 

 

 

[Mentova]

3 minutes ago, evan said:

Look, I'm not usually one to succeed at unifying opinion, and honestly with how stagnant some of us seem to be on the topic, there's no way that would ever happen. I'm gonna just throw my two cents out and stay out.

For one, I'm currently talking to several people who can confirm that one of those reports was not a troll, for starters and that should be in discussion currently. Second, passing the blame on the bystander effect is fair, but it's also ignoring the fact that people tried to resolve it by opting out or other means. The people who felt the entire topic needed to be removed did, or at the least are now accountable if they didn't. I got one offhand comment that I took wrong, and we resolved our differences without having to take the thread down. That doesn't mean that every fucking person who gets unwantedly tagged in that thread will. 

On the mod situation; displacing the problem of people feeling as though the site is grossly understaffed is not a personal attack. Referring to your personal lives being busy only proves that there is a problem. If the work is unrealistic for the number of people working here, why is it only that many working here? Failing to acknowledge that possibility seems to almost suggest that it's too difficult or that the mod staff feels they wouldn't have the personality to work with anyone else, and I seriously doubt that that's the sole reason.

I'm trying to avoid injecting my opinion on the fuck thread because honestly that's about as likely as getting this forum to agree on other shit like catcalling and at some point debating whether an inside joke should be allowed to tag others is going to turn into one of the biggest wastes of anyone's time. If you want to waste your time, be my guest, but at some point there's another reality at hand, which is dealing with how the triad of certain users, users of dissenting beliefs, and mods all interact. If that isn't at least acknowledged, then we can keep expecting petty drama for stupid fucking reasons until 2112. Whether or not this action is right or wrong is one discussion, but people being disgusted should raise the question of whether it is people who should just expect to enjoy socializing here, or people who validly want to be included in a way that doesn't marginalize their personal comfort.

 

different people would have complained. if the moral you're basing your decision on is "whether or not people complain", then that's not addressing the fact that this forum is so disjointed in opinion that no single decision will ever be accepted unanimously.

you're right that that is fair and some discourse was handled by simply talking it out. 

i'll go ahead and be forward and at least say that i was pretty fucking uncomfortable, and even when trying to run with what was known to be a joke i felt as though there was a hint of honest reason to be cautious. after discussing it with the other users, i don't feel this way anymore, but i also wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the comfort levels of those around you unless you're absolutely certain that they're out of place or unwarranted.

The user who was accused of making a troll report came forward and the person who sent the chat log recanted his statement and said it was a misunderstanding. I apologized to the person for the misunderstanding.

Also we most likely will add more mods since ley got run off the forum by a bunch of angry people. Also, at least some of the people were making at least somewhat personal attacks at willow for not immediately taking care of things when she was at work.

[evan]

2 minutes ago, Mentova said:

Also we most likely will add more mods since ley got run off the forum by a bunch of angry people. Also, at least some of the people were making at least somewhat personal attacks at willow for not immediately taking care of things when she was at work.

Again. problem worth addressing instead of amalgamating those who are annoyed with those who choose to just be malicious.

But you specifically pointed out you are going to look for more mods, so at least there's progress.

Edited March 29, 2016 by evan

[Mentova]

Just now, evan said:

Again. problem worth addressing instead of amalgamating those who are annoyed with those who choose to just be malicious.

I mean I just said that we're most likely going to bring more people in to replace the person lost. We can't bring anyone in at the moment since one of the mods is on vacation and can't give their input. What more do you want?

[FenrirDarkWolf]

tbh, no matter who becomes mod, SOMEONE will still be upset.

Because nothing they do or don't do ever seems to make anyone happy.

[evan]

Just now, Mentova said:

I mean I just said that we're most likely going to bring more people in to replace the person lost. We can't bring anyone in at the moment since one of the mods is on vacation and can't give their input. What more do you want?

Referring to the negative culture. I acknowledged what you said about the spot.

 

I just get the impression that after a while there's a pattern of extremely vicious users who just exist and are theoretically toxic and somehow when others say something that gets referenced somehow. And that's just going to misrepresent the people who do have a problem with something going down.

[Spot]

To be fair, this is the price you pay for re-electing virtually the same staff from the old FAF. 

But nooooo you wanted a place of your own. A place where you could shitpost to high heaven if you so chose to. A place where you could be racist, spam, bully or whatever uncivilized shit you wanted to get up to, and the mods of old allowed that in spades and thus, here they are running the show. So what did you expect?

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mr. Fox

[evan]

7 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

tbh, no matter who becomes mod, SOMEONE will still be upset.

Because nothing they do or don't do ever seems to make anyone happy.

What I've said about this is that something should be done to understand this. I feel like we just say that, then let everything continue to turn into a shitfest and not understand how to be consistent on these principles. Someone has to make concrete decisions and I don't think that happens at all.

There's no reason for people to always agree, but there's no reason to act like it's okay to then not have anything to agree upon.

Who is "someone?" Is it a valued member of the community? An over the top SJW? A racist? If the problem is that someone is complaining period, then we'll always have a problem.

2 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

To be fair, this is the price you pay for re-electing virtually the same staff from the old FAF. 

But nooooo you wanted a place of your own. A place where you could shitpost to high heaven if you so chose to. A place where you could be racist, spam, bully or whatever uncivilized shit you wanted to get up to, and the mods of old allowed that in spades and thus, here they are running the show. So what did you expect?

Okay I need someone's help here. When was there an election and why did I manage to, just like real elections, do my demographic justice by not showing up?

Edited March 29, 2016 by evan

[Spot]

2 minutes ago, evan said:

Okay I need someone's help here. When was there an election and why did I manage to, just like real elections, do my demographic justice by not showing up?

It was awhile back, Zeke made a note of it in the header.

[evan]

Just now, Mr. Fox said:

It was awhile back, Zeke made a note of it in the header.

Was that when Willow Clove and Ley were selected? I swear that was up to the mods, not the users. 

 

I might be insane now.

[Mentova]

7 minutes ago, evan said:

Referring to the negative culture. I acknowledged what you said about the spot.

 

I just get the impression that after a while there's a pattern of extremely vicious users who just exist and are theoretically toxic and somehow when others say something that gets referenced somehow. And that's just going to misrepresent the people who do have a problem with something going down.

Well, there is a group of rather vocal, sometimes toxic users who stir up trouble. We can tell the difference between them and people actually voicing concerns. Just because we defend ourselves from some of the accusations made against us doesn't mean we completely brush them off as a result of the mentioned group.

[Mentova]

Just now, evan said:

Was that when Willow Clove and Ley were selected? I swear that was up to the mods, not the users. 

 

I might be insane now.

No we never had, and never will, have an election for new mods. That would turn into a popularity contest and this place would go deeper into hell than it already is :V

I think before when this place first got put together we had a "are you ok with the old mods returning?" question or something? Maybe? My memory is shit.

[evan]

Just now, Mentova said:

Well, there is a group of rather vocal, sometimes toxic users who stir up trouble. We can tell the difference between them and people actually voicing concerns. Just because we defend ourselves from some of the accusations made against us doesn't mean we completely brush them off as a result of the mentioned group.

I just have to ask why you bring them up now of all times, then. You specifically referenced getting personal insults for not cleaning the threads up in time. If it is from a group of people who you do not categorize as toxic, then it may not be worth referencing them in the same statement where you refer to Ley leaving.

 

I'm sorry to be nitpicky, but statements like the one I picked on tend to give me the impression that it's supposed to undermine the way in which people have a problem with certain things happening.

[Spot]

4 minutes ago, evan said:

Was that when Willow Clove and Ley were selected? I swear that was up to the mods, not the users. 

 

I might be insane now.

No, it was a community vote, but the votes were based more on popularity than credentials or experience.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mr. Fox

[FenrirDarkWolf]

I think headaches like this is why most normal forum members who could possibly do a good job wouldn't even consider being a mod.

[evan]

3 minutes ago, 6tails said:

A couple months back-ish, and school, perhaps?

Probably, and probably.

2 minutes ago, Mentova said:

No we never had, and never will, have an election for new mods. That would turn into a popularity contest and this place would go deeper into hell than it already is :V

I think before when this place first got put together we had a "are you ok with the old mods returning?" question or something? Maybe? My memory is shit.

Touche. I just do wonder if there could be a popular vote done in comparison to moderator discretion.

aka "the forum likes these people the most and this resonates with our judgment" but obviously if the voting is fucked just ignore it and those who complain are therefore people who should be rightfully shut down on the topic.

1 minute ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

I think headaches like this is why most normal forum members who could possibly do a good job wouldn't even consider being a mod.

I don't feel like you're not trying to be attacking and your previous statement was a guise to hide the fact that I called you out on it.

Edited March 29, 2016 by evan

[willow]

(it's he..)

2 minutes ago, evan said:

On the mod situation; displacing the problem of people feeling as though the site is grossly understaffed is not a personal attack. Referring to your personal lives being busy only proves that there is a problem. If the work is unrealistic for the number of people working here, why is it only that many working here? Failing to acknowledge that possibility seems to almost suggest that it's too difficult or that the mod staff feels they wouldn't have the personality to work with anyone else, and I seriously doubt that that's the sole reason.

 

Not to say it isn't a problem, but I kind of felt like some people overreacted just a tiny bit. I only brought up that I was working during the spambot thing because I think it's a bit unfair to say someone shouldn't be a mod because they basically didn't do something fast enough. It happens and at least we didn't wait 72 hours to let it sit.

other than that, the workload isn't that terrible

Quote

different people would have complained. if the moral you're basing your decision on is "whether or not people complain", then that's not addressing the fact that this forum is so disjointed in opinion that no single decision will ever be accepted unanimously.

you're right that that is fair and some discourse was handled by simply talking it out. 

i'll go ahead and be forward and at least say that i was pretty fucking uncomfortable, and even when trying to run with what was known to be a joke i felt as though there was a hint of honest reason to be cautious. after discussing it with the other users, i don't feel this way anymore, but i also wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the comfort levels of those around you unless you're absolutely certain that they're out of place or unwarranted.

oh no it's not the matter of whether people would complain or not (I think I'm missing a part of that statement though), just that we were trying to see if people could be reasonable about it after being told they needed to not talk about fucking people who weren't comfortable with it. I'd also like to throw out that of the reports we got, two were valid 'I don't want to be talked about' reports but then we just got people saying it was creepy..which isn't totally grounds to close a thread.

could we have closed it once people started arguing? yes probably. but like I mentioned, we wanted to try and come up with some middle man solution because it was pretty 50/50 more or less between people who didn't care and people who did.

 

[Fantasma]

... alot of you guys make it sound like our moderation team has magical psychic powers to know how to please everyone and react instantaneously to any issue.

They are people who do their best to try to keep the peace and due to not always being on the forums due to work and such heavily rely on users communicating to them their needs and concerns.

Part of it is that we need to communicate our desires clearly and consistently, that most of the time the mod team must act retroactively as compared to having the luxury of seeing the future, and frankly we as a whole want to have our cake and eat it too. We want no shitposting, but we want to shitpost. We want to be able to make all the jokes we want, and yet not have others make them about us.

... my point is the mod team is only half of the dynamic at play here and they can't do our job.

[Mentova]

2 minutes ago, evan said:

I just have to ask why you bring them up now of all times, then. You specifically referenced getting personal insults for not cleaning the threads up in time. If it is from a group of people who you do not categorize as toxic, then it may not be worth referencing them in the same statement where you refer to Ley leaving.

 

I'm sorry to be nitpicky, but statements like the one I picked on tend to give me the impression that it's supposed to undermine the way in which people have a problem with certain things happening.

I bring them up because I'm irritated with how people are quick to talk down to the mod team here, myself included, instead of voicing their opinions in a polite fashion. That doesn't mean their complaints are invalid of course.

[evan]

7 minutes ago, willow said:

(it's he..)

Not to say it isn't a problem, but I kind of felt like some people overreacted just a tiny bit. I only brought up that I was working during the spambot thing because I think it's a bit unfair to say someone shouldn't be a mod because they basically didn't do something fast enough. It happens and at least we didn't wait 72 hours to let it sit.

other than that, the workload isn't that terrible

oh no it's not the matter of whether people would complain or not (I think I'm missing a part of that statement though), just that we were trying to see if people could be reasonable about it after being told they needed to not talk about fucking people who weren't comfortable with it. I'd also like to throw out that of the reports we got, two were valid 'I don't want to be talked about' reports but then we just got people saying it was creepy..which isn't totally grounds to close a thread.

could we have closed it once people started arguing? yes probably. but like I mentioned, we wanted to try and come up with some middle man solution because it was pretty 50/50 more or less between people who didn't care and people who did.

 

That I agree on. In that regard that's when the question of a user's rights come into play. It falls into the problem of constantly imperfect standards. Anything less than immediate is seen as a problem.

I still think just to make sure that the people who notice it for long enough to be an issue to remain silent, extra staff may be good to have around. While the problem was solved in a reasonable amount of time, not every user gets to see that reasonable process happening. For them they just see 20 minutes of that thread continuing to exist and the problem not seemingly 100% solved.

 

The rest of what you said I pretty much either agree with or can see the reasoning for. And that's the reasoning that sometimes just flat out doesn't come across in discussions, and for that reason that's why a lot of people are hot and bothered. It's a matter of understanding which users you're alienating with which decision.

Sometimes it does have to come down to a strong decision though. At some point trying to take a non action implies a certain level of preferential determination. The reasoning is appreciated and definitely something worth taking into consideration, and I believe you did make a post attempting to keep the situation calm? It's just a matter of representing the people you feel best represent the forum.

5 minutes ago, Mentova said:

I bring them up because I'm irritated with how people are quick to talk down to the mod team here, myself included, instead of voicing their opinions in a polite fashion. That doesn't mean their complaints are invalid of course.

For me personally I feel like you just dichotomize me. You mentioned that in reply to me so I feel inherently in that position whether or not I'm guilty of it. I don't know where polite begins and honest ends and I'm not sure if that matters if it's a large summation of the forum.

6 minutes ago, Johanna Waya said:

... alot of you guys make it sound like our moderation team has magical psychic powers to know how to please everyone and react instantaneously to any issue.

They are people who do their best to try to keep the peace and due to not always being on the forums due to work and such heavily rely on users communicating to them their needs and concerns.

Part of it is that we need to communicate our desires clearly and consistently, that most of the time the mod team must act retroactively as compared to having the luxury of seeing the future, and frankly we as a whole want to have our cake and eat it too. We want no shitposting, but we want to shitpost. We want to be able to make all the jokes we want, and yet not have others make them about us.

... my point is the mod team is only half of the dynamic at play here and they can't do our job.

This will never happen trying to appease everybody. This is what we're trying to do and this is why people are leaving. They believed that they were in the group of people whose desires would be represented, and when the time came they were not. This is the whole point of this thread. The people complaining are often different people complaining each time. 

The simple matter of a non-conforming society needs to be more apparent to those who comment on complaints being brought forth.

Edited March 29, 2016 by evan

[Spot]

2 minutes ago, Johanna Waya said:

... alot of you guys make it sound like our moderation team has magical psychic powers to know how to please everyone and react instantaneously to any issue.

They are people who do their best to try to keep the peace and due to not always being on the forums due to work and such heavily rely on users communicating to them their needs and concerns.

Part of it is that we need to communicate our desires clearly and consistently, that most of the time the mod team must act retroactively as compared to having the luxury of seeing the future, and frankly we as a whole want to have our cake and eat it too. We want no shitposting, but we want to shitpost. We want to be able to make all the jokes we want, and yet not have others make them about us.

... my point is the mod team is only half of the dynamic at play here and they can't do our job.

Yeah that's pretty much it. Everyone is it blame here and the mods generally bend to the will of the community. Really what we need is a shadow moderator.

[FenrirDarkWolf]

6 minutes ago, evan said:

I don't feel like you're not trying to be attacking and your previous statement was a guise to hide the fact that I called you out on it.

But who am I going to attack lol

I was just stating that there's always someone who'll be a problem, you said so yourself.

And stating that this is headache, well... just look at this cluster-fuck.

[evan]

2 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

But who am I going to attack lol

I was just stating that there's always someone who'll be a problem, you said so yourself.

And stating that this is headache, well... just look at this cluster-fuck.

It's just tiring dealing with the complaints about the complaints because generally the complaints about the complaints are just as loud as the complaints themselves and then after a while of course it's a clusterfuck because those who preach non-confrontational attitudes are getting confrontational with those who just want a clear answer on whether their perspective on a topic will be supported or not based on previous precedents.

And honestly this is the first time anyone has given me straight answers on stuff like this in a while.

Edited March 29, 2016 by evan

[DevilishlyHandsome49]

If I may put in my 2 cents

I'm not really sure what's going on with this forum as far as tone goes. One week everyone's in on a joke and goofs about. Another week, some people aren't into the joke and want some wholesome topics. The next week, everyone's sick of serious topics or joke topics. It seems like its either we're stepping on thin ice to not hurt anybody or we're trampling them. It especially confuses me when there are posters who get on people about having a stronger backbone when it comes to certain things on this site, yet they'll get offended by something, even if that something may be a joke. Are we all able to tell whether we're joking here or not anymore? Did the "Which Forum Member Would You Fuck Thread" need a :V at the end of it so that we could tell what the joke was? I'm not trying to sound insensitive but I truly have now idea what people's stance on this is, cause it changes all the time.

As for the mod situation, there needs to be more mods, period. It baffles that out of all the people who applied (myself included) only what, 2 more got added to the established moderation team? Then when one of them left, there wasn't a replacement or an add on to it.

I've been on a forum where the mods aren't around as much or active. You think this spam is bad? It can get much much worse. People coming in to see how un-moderated the site is, you're gonna start seeing threads with new members posting explicit pictures and CP. Now, it hasn't gotten that bad but it always could if measures aren't taken.

But as @Johanna Waya said, outside of the spam, we the users have to take responsibility for the stuff we post as well...that is, once we find out where everyone stands with each other.

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by DevilishlyHandsome49

[evan]

I need to go to bed but I'll say this before I go

 

The reason I'm pressing about any of this right now is because we're doing the thing we always do when complaints arise. They get shot down in some way because the definition of what is and isn't okay changes repeatedly. There's no clarity on what is actually alright and isn't since our rules are general conventions reliant on who complains first, so every time drama comes up it just simply boils down to a matter of someone needing to complain loud enough.

I'm not against shutting down complaints. I'm against it always being different each time, inconsistent, or worse, doing what's happening now which is trying to solve it in a public forum where everyone gets their input on the situation. If Fleece is in the wrong based on what you think is and isn't okay, then personally I wouldn't care if you close the thread. Maybe some people would, and would complain. But you have to make a decision as to what that population is.

People were genuinely, genuinely put in a strange position in that thread. Do you want them to take personal actions and understand that that is where that action stays, or is it just going to be an "I'm going to let this entire situation slide" sort of thing, which tells nobody what is actually okay and isn't? If the thread gets left open but is watched and individual action is taken, cool! But it honestly seemed like nobody had made a decision that was concrete and communicated with those involved, more so a wishy washy answer that seemed to lack a response to any specific person.

Dev is on point because he's pointing out a lack of moral ambiguity, a lack of demographic identity, and a refusal to admit that something could be done about that fact. I have no idea what should be done about each of these examples of discourse on Phoenix because there's no consistency on what you should expect mods to do, nor should you expect there to be consistency on what's okay and what's not between users. 

Above anything, if I want to be here, that alone needs to change. If certain things are gonna be fine and others aren't, and that doesn't suit my pallette, at least I know. But the personality of the forum changes too consistently to make any sense. Some things are wrong based on the week of the year and that's why people keep leaving; One second they feel that this personal line won't be crossed, and then it is and no precedent was set.

Understand that your demographic is varied, and please acknowledge that fact at least. And that's a statement for everyone to consider.

[Fantasma]

What has hurt is the most is we haven't made a clear vision for what we want this place to be, we try to please everyone even when they have drastically different visions on what is and is not appropriate, and what our focus should be.

 

To be honest, I'm starting to fall out of these forums as wonderful as you people are I simply do not see myself as having a place here.

 

[evan]

I'm pretty much out. I'm busy and the reality is that if there's some social outlet I need to fulfill, the one that can't even identify with itself isn't it.

[FenrirDarkWolf]

5 minutes ago, Johanna Waya said:

What has hurt is the most is we haven't made a clear vision for what we want this place to be, we try to please everyone even when they have drastically different visions on what is and is not appropriate, and what our focus should be.

 

To be honest, I'm starting to fall out of these forums as wonderful as you people are I simply do not see myself as having a place here.

 

I've thought about leaving many times, but I stay because I love playing forum games mostly.

But I do agree that the people and the personality of this forum is too inconsistent as of now. Things do need to get better, but...

Edited March 29, 2016 by FenrirDarkWolf

[Spot]

3 minutes ago, 6tails said:

Well, if you guys leave, what's the point of trying to fix shit? Those making the complaints known and then leaving gives pretty much zero fucking incentive to try to improve.

Someone mentioned forum users needing to look at themselves. Might I suggest taking that advice, first?

You might have that backwards. If people leave it is because the system is not working and that something needs to be done to fix it. At least that's how I see it.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mr. Fox

[FenrirDarkWolf]

It could go both ways. It might be an incentive to go "fuck it" and not change, or realise that something does need to change.

But even then, I feel like leaving wouldn't really help anyway, because when a new wave of people come in, something would probably need to change again.

It's a never-ending cycle of users vs. mods.

It's government.

[Spot]

25 minutes ago, 6tails said:

If the only people that care enough to say something leave, then the typical happening is that it is assumed the other forum users are fine with the status quo, and nothing improves.

But what if the status quo wants anarchy? Many times we've seen situations dealt with that falls well within the forums rules and regulations only to have blowback from it because "muh freedom". 

The point I'm making is is that the ones addressing concern are the ones that know something is wrong. Mods barely make an attempt anymore to keep topics on track, or give warning to those that try to derail them; as clearly seen in this very thread.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mr. Fox

[willow]

I really need to go to bed but I'll say this before I go:

if we want to actually hammer out a legitimate vision for these forums, it needs to be done without the insults and snide comments. we also need to think about what we're willing to sacrifice in order to actually have a forum rather than a cesspit. because that's kind of the thing that hinders progress. people want all the things they liked about the old FAF and want to emulate them here, but also want this place to be its own entity and have some semblance of order.

somewhere in that equation, something has to go. if it means setting boundaries or whatever then so be it.

and I'll probably put up a post about electing new mods later today, but it's almost 2 in the morning and I need to sleep.

[PastryOfApathy]

Apparently a bunch of shit happened while I was asleep so seeing as I'm partially responsible (having made the thread in question), I feel obligated to respond to this whole mess.

I never intended to make anybody uncomfortable or to give people a venue to make others uncomfortable, and if I did I sincerely apologize. The thread was genuinely made as a joke and in making it I made a conscious effort to frame it as such, however it appears that I failed and let thing things get out of hand and as a result allowed people to be put into uncomfortable situations they in no way deserve to be in. I'm not a mod, but it's still my thread so I share some of the blame for that whole shitshow.

Seriously in retrospect it was kind of a dumb idea, but I didn't think nor want any of this to happen.

[Gamedog]

2 hours ago, willow said:

@Gamedog

we can do that in the future if you want.

yes please

[Draconas]

honestly, for what it's worth, I am glad that our current mods even deal with our bullshit in their free time that could be spent doing something else honestly, kudos to @Mentova and @willow for sticking around

[FlynnCoyote]

What did happen with Lemon?