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UK leaving EU


Saxon
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So, ADF would probably love me, because I think I'm turning to the dark side. I'm increasingly disgruntled with the European Union in general, especially given that I'm now receiving propaganda from the government telling me that I should vote to stay; I'm also seeing youtube advert from the government telling me to read the propaganda pamphlet, if I haven't done already. (obviously they know that most people just put their leaflet in the bin without a second thought)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35987186 

I'm also disappointed that, in my view, the faces that represent the exit campaign are about as affable gonorrhea. 

...But I appreciate that not everyone in the UK might feel the same dissatisfaction as me. 

What are your views; what are the leading issues which would sway you for or against leaving? If you don't live in the UK what do you think of the situation?

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To be honest, that leaflet is one of the few examples of propaganda I actually agree with.

Leaving is just way too much hassle. We get free movement, mass trade, support from other countries, EU healthcare, etc.

We don't know what's gonna happen if we leave. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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I've always been an exit girl. I come from an exit family actually.

What I know of the original referendum is that entering the EU was sold as a great thing for international trade - which can't be denied, but ultimately the people got duped into entering into a huge legal system, having laws the British people didn't vote in forced upon them, and this really sucks.

And just as much that, I know some people think this is stupid but I'm a definite patriot. We're our own island, we stand alone from Europe, we have a totally different culture, everything. I mean, there's a reason people have pushed for this referendum, right? We don't belong in the EU and a lot of people don't want to be there.

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Just now, DrDingo said:

To be honest, that leaflet is one of the few examples of propaganda I actually agree with.

Leaving is just way too much hassle. We get free movement, mass trade, support from other countries, EU healthcare, etc.

We don't know what's gonna happen if we leave. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I don't think we should be sent propaganda, even if I agree with its message, to be frank. In the information age, it's not as if people struggle to access arguments about political matters they're interested in. (although much of the available information is usually heavily biased)

I don't really value the free movement that much; when I was working in a Charity shop over Christmas Polish and Romanian customers tried to rob us. Robbing a charity shop, classy as fuck, eh? 

It's not as if I'll ever want to emigrate to a former soviet block country, and it is surprising that the EU permitted them to enter, given that they don't hold similar values to other European countries and don't have comparable economies. 

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6 minutes ago, Alexxx-Returns said:

And just as much that, I know some people think this is stupid but I'm a definite patriot. We're our own island, we stand alone from Europe, we have a totally different culture, everything. I mean, there's a reason people have pushed for this referendum, right? We don't belong in the EU and a lot of people don't want to be there.

Sounds like Texas vs. the US

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4 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I don't think we should be sent propaganda, even if I agree with its message, to be frank. In the information age, it's not as if people struggle to access arguments about political matters they're interested in. 

We're talking about the British general public, man. The UK is piled high with idiots. I think throwing information at some people will mean the difference between them knowing and not.

Many people don't vote in the elections because they're not bothered to research. UKIP got the amount of votes it did because it attracted the kinds of people who didn't look things up, but felt pride.

And this summer, swarms of people who are clueless would be presented with the power of a yes/no vote on a silver platter.

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3 minutes ago, DrDingo said:

We're talking about the British general public, man. The UK is piled high with idiots. I think throwing information at some people will mean the difference between them knowing and not.

Many people don't vote in the elections because they're not bothered to research. UKIP got the amount of votes it did because it attracted the kinds of people who didn't look things up, but felt pride.

And this summer, swarms of people who are clueless would be presented with the power of a yes/no vote on a silver platter.

On the subject of UKIP, it was super unfair that they achieved an eighth of the vote but only a six hundredth of the seats in the last general election. 

I didn't agree with any of their policies, but it showed our system fails to represent our people adequately. 

Anyway, if we really are all idiots, how can you be sure we aren't all just putting the millions of pounds worth of leaflets right into the bin? 

 

Edited by Saxon
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In 1974 when we entered the EU, it was then called "the common market" or something like that. The opinion polls were 75% AGAINST entering it, but we were entered anyway without any referendum. Until it was fought for in 1975, where the result was a narrow "remain" vote under talk of trade, and Soviet-related scaremongering. It has been quite some time since then, and the EU has taken more and more steps to circumvent the power of our own parliament, and the thought of "public opinion" has always been disgusting to them.

They are nothing more than federalists. They don't care about Britain as anything more than an asset and source of revenue.

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20 minutes ago, Alexxx-Returns said:

I've always been an exit girl. I come from an exit family actually.

What I know of the original referendum is that entering the EU was sold as a great thing for international trade - which can't be denied, but ultimately the people got duped into entering into a huge legal system, having laws the British people didn't vote in forced upon them, and this really sucks.

And just as much that, I know some people think this is stupid but I'm a definite patriot. We're our own island, we stand alone from Europe, we have a totally different culture, everything. I mean, there's a reason people have pushed for this referendum, right? We don't belong in the EU and a lot of people don't want to be there.

And you want to know something else, there are quite a lot of EU countries in the Mainland of Europe thinking exactly the same. But alas, the EU made it all in such a way that leaving will have destructive consequences for economies.

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Just now, weirdfox said:

And you want to know something else, there are quite a lot of EU countries in the Mainland of Europe thinking exactly the same. But alas, the EU made it all in such a way that leaving will have destructive consequences for economies.

But it won't. I forgot his name, but an economist fellow ran a simulation that showed that we will have an 8% reduction of living costs if we leave. The rest is just scaremongering and mostly bullshit. Like if we were to leave the EU, we suddenly won't be able to go on holiday in france! Absolute bollocks. Like hell France would give up a slice on its tourist industry. Like hell Germany will stop selling us cars. Like hell Europe would suddenly bar out one of its largest trading partners because of the referendum result.

We have absolutely nothing to gain in the EU, and more to lose. The parasites in Brussels have already decided to delay various legislations of theirs until after the referendum. Gosh, I wonder why. It's only by leaving the EU will we get to have a say in the TPP/TPIP thing. They don't want us to have an opinion. They don't want us to vote on this. The "fascists" of UKIP have been struggling to get us a second referendum for a very, very long time, while the man who fucks pig faces, whose grandparents owned hundreds of black slaves, has been trying very hard to stop us getting this chance at all. David Cameron's "negotiations" are nothing more than posturing.

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1 minute ago, Sir Gibby said:

But it won't. I forgot his name, but an economist fellow ran a simulation that showed that we will have an 8% reduction of living costs if we leave. The rest is just scaremongering and mostly bullshit. Like if we were to leave the EU, we suddenly won't be able to go on holiday in france! Absolute bollocks. Like hell France would give up a slice on its tourist industry. Like hell Germany will stop selling us cars. Like hell Europe would suddenly bar out one of its largest trading partners because of the referendum result.

We have absolutely nothing to gain in the EU, and more to lose. The parasites in Brussels have already decided to delay various legislations of theirs until after the referendum. Gosh, I wonder why. It's only by leaving the EU will we get to have a say in the TPP/TPIP thing. They don't want us to have an opinion. They don't want us to vote on this. The "fascists" of UKIP have been struggling to get us a second referendum for a very, very long time, while the man who fucks pig faces, whose grandparents owned hundreds of black slaves, has been trying very hard to stop us getting this chance at all. David Cameron's "negotiations" are nothing more than posturing.

That's true :) was more speaking of other countries. England will survive, and tbh, who in their right minds wants to go to France on holiday oO

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10 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

The EU sounds like an even more dysfunctional version of the US tbh

That's basically what it is. The biggest problem with maintaining a federal government in the US is that different states simply want different things.

Now replace US states with different countries that have different economies, and cultures, and languages, and documented histories going well over two thousand years spending most of that time making the continent a warzone...

Edited by Sir Gibby
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7 minutes ago, Sir Gibby said:

That's basically what it is. The biggest problem with maintaining a federal government in the US is that different states simply want different things.

Now replace US states with different countries that have different countries, and cultures, and languages, and documented histories going well over two thousand years spending most of that time making the continent a warzone...

It sounds like a fucking disaster

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31 minutes ago, Sir Gibby said:

But it won't. I forgot his name, but an economist fellow ran a simulation that showed that we will have an 8% reduction of living costs if we leave. The rest is just scaremongering and mostly bullshit. Like if we were to leave the EU, we suddenly won't be able to go on holiday in france! Absolute bollocks. Like hell France would give up a slice on its tourist industry. Like hell Germany will stop selling us cars. Like hell Europe would suddenly bar out one of its largest trading partners because of the referendum result.

We have absolutely nothing to gain in the EU, and more to lose. The parasites in Brussels have already decided to delay various legislations of theirs until after the referendum. Gosh, I wonder why. It's only by leaving the EU will we get to have a say in the TPP/TPIP thing. They don't want us to have an opinion. They don't want us to vote on this. The "fascists" of UKIP have been struggling to get us a second referendum for a very, very long time, while the man who fucks pig faces, whose grandparents owned hundreds of black slaves, has been trying very hard to stop us getting this chance at all. David Cameron's "negotiations" are nothing more than posturing.

Not exactly fair to bring up someone's grandparents? As if they are responsible for that.

Anyway, I've seen so many different claims about the economic impacts of leaving the EU that I am not sure if any of them are veritable.

 

It sounds like a fucking disaster

The upshot is that we haven't had a significant war for a few decades...although maybe we wouldn't have had any wars anyway.  

Sigh, I fundamentally liked the idea of cooperation and inegration with european neighbours, because together we're the world's largest economy and a significant cultural centre...but the soviet block countries do not see eye to eye with the western european countries and, even worse, the european courts have been preoccupied with minutia in the west, rather than significant human rights abuses in eastern europe. 

Edited by Saxon
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Just now, Saxon said:

Not exactly fair to bring up someone's grandparents? As if they are responsible for that.

Anyway, I've seen so many different claims about the economic impacts of leaving the EU that I am not sure if any of them are veritable. 

It was more a jab to the way smear campaigns are held against UKIP, directed to the current ruling party. Don't think too much about it.

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I am quite hard against UK leaving. So is quite a good bunch of well educated people and high status guys within the UK. The average supporter of Brexit is basically relatively poorly educated blue collar worker, which in itself doesn't say anything yet, but it gives a good idea on what the knowledge level of things the average person has on the matter. Feels like majority thinks short term.

For an outsider it seems like UK exiting is sold as a possible solution that would, exaggeratedly speaking, magically fix all your issues (obvs not the case) when all you truly have going for it is basically "It MIGHT get better after the painful separation". What if it would fail though? Ears deep in shit and all you could blame is yourself. But hey, less immigrants amirite? Worth it for sure.

Alternatively you could take a firm stance with the EU and negotiate better deals, which is btw already happening. Right now UK sounds like a child throwing a temper tantrum, sitting in a store aisle when its mum refuses to buy their fave toy, which is hardly surprising when you take a look at how House of Commons behaves itself.

UK leaving the trade laws and common legislature of EU would make international business, traveling and trade much harder than need be and be detrimental to your economy, which is hardly beneficial. Also worth thinking are the implications it would have on other countries that are disgruntled. Worst case scenario more countries vote to leave and the remaining countries can't support EU's weight and it dies out. I dread to think what our eastern neighbours would think of this opportunity to repeat Crimea again.

Personally I side with the people who went to schools, run banks and high status offices rather than the regular chav picked off the streets.

I have a  distaste to EU, I think a bunch of their laws are utter bullshit and make things harder and is just in some cases batshit crazy, but leaving, I think, is not the solution. It's almost a necessary evil.

 

I also have a small bias as I wanted to move to the UK, and being an EU citizen makes it a bunch easier but that doesn't automatically negate everything else I said.

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1 minute ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

I am quite hard against UK leaving. So is quite a good bunch of well educated people and high status guys within the UK. The average supporter of Brexit is basically relatively poorly educated blue collar worker, which in itself doesn't say anything yet, but it gives a good idea on what the knowledge level of things the average person has on the matter. Feels like majority thinks short term.

For an outsider it seems like UK exiting is sold as a possible solution that would, exaggeratedly speaking, magically fix all your issues (obvs not the case) when all you truly have going for it is basically "It MIGHT get better after the painful separation". What if it would fail though? Ears deep in shit and all you could blame is yourself. But hey, less immigrants amirite? Worth it for sure.

Alternatively you could take a firm stance with the EU and negotiate better deals, which is btw already happening. Right now UK sounds like a child throwing a temper tantrum, sitting in a store aisle when its mum refuses to buy their fave toy, which is hardly surprising when you take a look at how House of Commons behaves itself.

UK leaving the trade laws and common legislature of EU would make international business, traveling and trade much harder than need be and be detrimental to your economy, which is hardly beneficial. Also worth thinking are the implications it would have on other countries that are disgruntled. Worst case scenario more countries vote to leave and the remaining countries can't support EU's weight and it dies out. I dread to think what our eastern neighbours would think of this opportunity to repeat Crimea again.

Personally I side with the people who went to schools, run banks and high status offices rather than the regular chav picked off the streets.

I have a  distaste to EU, I think a bunch of their laws are utter bullshit and make things harder and is just in some cases batshit crazy, but leaving, I think, is not the solution. It's almost a necessary evil.

 

I also have a small bias as I wanted to move to the UK, and being an EU citizen makes it a bunch easier but that doesn't automatically negate everything else I said.

 

I think it's interesting you chose an allegory which portrays the EU as being the UK's mum. I think that the notion that individual member states are subservient to their over-arching euro-mother is actually one of the reasons a lot of people don't like being inside the EU. 

I think your muses about Russia possibly exploiting the fragmentation of Europe are valid; I would be concerned about that too. 

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10 minutes ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

take a firm stance with the EU and negotiate better deals, which is btw already happening

This is not happening. Not a single one of Cameron's "deals" are legally binding. When he negotiates with them, he only makes further compromises. Negotiating with the EU didn't work out for Greece, it's not going to work for anyone else. It's nothing more than posturing. He goes in, and comes out with less than before. Meanwhile despite being pressured to fund various other causes such as those regarding Britain's struggling steel industry, he spent roughly the same amount of the desired amount of taxpayer funds on leaflets to every home saying why staying in the EU is such a fabulous idea. Namely, £9-10 million.

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11 minutes ago, Sir Gibby said:

This is not happening. Not a single one of Cameron's "deals" are legally binding. When he negotiates with them, he only makes further compromises. Negotiating with the EU didn't work out for Greece, it's not going to work for anyone else. It's nothing more than posturing. He goes in, and comes out with less than before. Meanwhile despite being pressured to fund various other causes such as those regarding Britain's struggling steel industry, he spent roughly the same amount of the desired amount of taxpayer funds on leaflets to every home saying why staying in the EU is such a fabulous idea. Namely, £9-10 million.

To be fair, Gibby is correct that most of the 'hard won deals' are things we would have been given anyway, things that don't matter or which aren't promises. 

I don't think anything could have worked out for poor little Greece, unfortunately, although they brought much of their failure upon themselves. :\ 

On the subject of the pamphlets, I think that the few million is tuppence in the grand scheme of things for the government, but other groups, such as 'vote leave' and 'stronger together' are only legally allowed to spend a maximum of £7m on their campaigns.

...so it is like rigging the game, before they even start. Fortunately the government wasted the money on pamphlets and shitty youtube adverts. 

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9 minutes ago, Kinharia said:

I'm 50/50 on staying in the EU  or Leaving. On the one hand for my own personal interests it is better to remain. If we leave the UK will break up which is also tempting.

But why would the UK break if they left the EU?

(I am ignorant American, pls explain)

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2 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

But why would the UK break if they left the EU?

(I am ignorant American, pls explain)

Scotland wants to remain within the EU as it benefits them too much. If England was to force the UK out of the EU then they would hold a second independance referendum and then reapply to rejoin the EU if they win. There may be a bit of Welsh nationalism. Should Scotland leave it would leave N.Ireland in a very tricky place and may see it kicked out of what remains of the UK or may vote to rejoin the Irish Republic.

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5 minutes ago, Sir Gibby said:

TBQHWU I think if the English were able to participate in the Scottish referendum, the out vote would definitely win... :P

Lol yes. 

I want my dual Scottish citizenship. Gimme gimme gimme. 

Scotland wants to remain within the EU as it benefits them too much. If England was to force the UK out of the EU then they would hold a second independance referendum and then reapply to rejoin the EU if they win. There may be a bit of Welsh nationalism. Should Scotland leave it would leave N.Ireland in a very tricky place and may see it kicked out of what remains of the UK or may vote to rejoin the Irish Republic.

Norn iron already has too many problems to have even more put on its plate, to be honest. 

Edited by Saxon
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2 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Norn iron already has too many problems to have even more put on its plate, to be honest. 

The place is a shithole. Big drain on the economy. Kick us out, let the economy crumble and then we'll reunite with the rest of Ireland and everyone wins.

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Just now, Kinharia said:

The place is a shithole. Big drain on the economy. Kick us out, let the economy crumble and then we'll reunite with the rest of Ireland and everyone wins.

I'm not even sure if reunification with the rest of Ireland would be a final solution, because some people are bound to feel very angry about that. 

It would be nice if the next generations of people across the whole of Ireland just gradually stopped caring about religious and sectarian politics and the border eventually became just a trivial technicality and then, a memory. 

But that's not going to happen while people continue to get kneecapped or assassinated. :\ 

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I'm pretty much on the fence about whether to stay or leave, the European Union is not only blatantly undemocratic, but it's also economically unstable and has made a mess of some *perfectly good countries (e.g. the prospect of EU membership being a big part of what kick started the conflict in Ukraine), there's no denying things need to change and I think it's irresponsible that we leave our borders open to just anyone at a time like this.

We do have a lot to thank the EU for though, it's because of EU law that workers are entitled to vacation time and aren't made to work ridiculous hours, whether we voted them in or not, the EU has some very reasonable legislation when it comes to welfare and worker's rights, there's no guarantee that those rights will continue to be upheld if the Conservative Party are given free reign. While I think it's absurd that we have to send £55 million a day to Brussels just to have access to their market, I don't trust the Tories to run this country on their own and I think we need a higher authority to keep them in line, and that's what it boils down to for me, hence I'm inclined to stay for the time being.

 

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I was in Scotland during the referendum on independence. The year and so i was there, working with scots, brits, and other European nationals, I learned a few things, and a lot about the so called Brexit. 

The UK is an economic powerhouse. No ifs ands or buts about that. Any instability there is bad for the region and the world. Now, the EU and the EEA was a great idea on paper. However, the failures of smaller countries has put undue stress on larger, more stable ones. Factor in the migration from the middle east, and the ingrained xenophobia, its become nothing short of a cluster fuck.

That being said, as an American, I believe the UK leaving the EU is a terrible idea. Its a cornerpost holding up the entire rotten frame. If it leaves, the whole thing will come crashing down. I made the same argument during the Scottish referendum. I wont speculate on the effects, but I will guarantee they wont be good. Its a very tricky situation. If they stay, shit will get bad. If they leave, shit will get far, far worse.

Do it, pretty much. I am ready for a Max Max world. I WILL RIDE ETERNAL, SHINEY AND CHROME!

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1 hour ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

Should the UK leave the EU...

What would be the effect on the country? Europe? The world?

I do not think I have seen anything on any U.S. news about the possibility of this, so that should show you the general concern of the American people about this event.

The U.S. government may slightly shift its view of the U.K. from a decent ally to a nation that must be protected. That means little in practice for most citizens of either country, but it would mean an increase of U.S. political presence in Europe and an even stronger reason to cry foul if and when Russia does something again. I think they were meddling around where the U.S. was meddling around in the Baltic just the other day, even. Speaking of, Russia would continue to bully around Europe and Asia as they have; the U.K. doing this would be just an extra excuse.

I tried to find information on the likely response of the governments of the major Asian powers, but I could not find much. My guess is that China will continue to bully around the Pacific as it has been, India will care little at all, and Australia will be full of mixed opinions until they all forget it happened. I am not sure about most of the people of these nations, but my guess would be that they would be largely ignorant and apathetic.

I would guess that should sum up the response of most people and governments around the world, though: They probably just don't care. The biggest changes I expect would be in the policies of the larger businesses when it comes to the U.K.

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14 hours ago, MalletFace said:

I do not think I have seen anything on any U.S. news about the possibility of this, so that should show you the general concern of the American people about this event.

Most Americans don't give a flying fuck about Europe except for cute accents and Paris unless something bad happens,.

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On 4/15/2016 at 5:06 PM, Endless/Nameless said:

what-is-the-market-value-of-a-rare-pepe-

That is indeed a very rare pepé.

 

It's a hard choice to make, to find a way to work within the system or to be wrecked by instability until a new and possibly worse system replaces it.

I do agree with universal human and worker rights, but politics and trade should not be forced unless they protect those directly.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just read about this, turns out that regardless of whether or not we decide to stay in the EU, the tories will likely leave the European Convention on Human Rights: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36128318

 

This was the one thing that tipped me in favour of a remain vote, but now that I know it'll be the same either way I'm seriously considering voting to leave.

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