Genderfluid/Agender UK teen can't get bank account, has to choose gender on forms

[willow]

32 minutes ago, Crazy Lee said:

It's possible people may have been trans or gender fluid for the whole of human history but had no label to describe how they felt. Or were too fearful to come out as how they felt until recently.

at the risk of sounding kind of dickish, I almost feel like that's kind of obvious.

51 minutes ago, Troj said:

Honestly, I'd like to know why, specifically, the bank wants to know your gender, and if they can accomplish the same goal(s) by collecting some other type of personal information.

I feel like the sex/gender question is one of those arbitrary questions everyone feels they need to ask. regardless of if it's relevant or not. but I guess like you said, it's mostly for identity theft purposes

that being said, I got a shirt and a bag for signing up with my bank :u

[Saxon]

4 hours ago, Troj said:

Honestly, I'd like to know why, specifically, the bank wants to know your gender, and if they can accomplish the same goal(s) by collecting some other type of personal information.

I can understand the hospital caring about this, because your biological sex has some bearing on what medical issues you might experience.

If you want to know someone's gender for marketing purposes, or for the purpose of identity-theft-prevention, then you can probably ask a different type of question to get the same results.

Personally, I'd just mark my biological sex and go on with my day, but I don't have pronounced gender dysphoria, and I'm conflict-averse and go-with-the-flow as a general (but not absolute) rule.

In fact, couldn't the bank just ask "sex" instead of "gender?" If this sort of dilemma becomes commonplace, I imagine you could request both sex and gender, theoretically.

If somebody has pronounced gender dysphoria, such that ticking a box on a form causes them physical discomfort, that is their lookout and they should change. They should not expect all of society to feel guilty about not accommodating their esoteric and ridiculous problem with forms. :\

If banks did ask for gender, the next thing to happen would be hoards of sanctimonious twits complaining that 'they should not need to know my gender' or that the list of genders offered doesn't include their own esoteric label.

You can't please those sorts of people; the only way to win is to ignore them.

[Troj]

The balancing act is this:

Trans people have a genuine concern in this regard. To recognize that concern is much less painful and inconvenient for the rest of us than our refusal to compromise or budge is for a trans person.

But yes, some kids have climbed on the "I identify as toaster-kin" bandwagon, which means your "check-the-box" gender options will always make Godel shed a tear, while allowing people to write in their gender will potentially result in tons of meaningless static and hard-to-parse data.

But, from a marketing and sales standpoint, refusing to let people identify as toaster-kin might cause you to lose customers, whereas letting them identify as such might earn you new and more loyal customers. (Of course, an entirely different set of customers might leave in a huff if you chose to acknowledge gender-nonconforming folks, so you have to do some cost/benefit analysis here.)

[Toshabi]

I'm Croc-kin so I agree.

[Troj]

Oddly, I feel this ties in with one of the things I alluded to in my post:

 

[Zeke]

17 hours ago, Crazy Lee said:

What, the whole tumblr thing, or gender dysphoria/transgender thing in general?
Homosexuality has been around since forever. Only recently has it become a major thing in western society. It's possible people may have been trans or gender fluid for the whole of human history but had no label to describe how they felt. Or were too fearful to come out as how they felt until recently.

Native Americans in the Northwestern and Southwestern tribes had a term for Transgender or gender fluid. It is called "Two-Spirit".

[Zaraphayx]

13 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Native Americans in the Northwestern and Southwestern tribes had a term for Transgender or gender fluid. It is called "Two-Spirit".

Yeah and look what happened to them. :^)

[willow]

7 hours ago, Troj said:

The balancing act is this:

Trans people have a genuine concern in this regard. To recognize that concern is much less painful and inconvenient for the rest of us than our refusal to compromise or budge is for a trans person.

But yes, some kids have climbed on the "I identify as toaster-kin" bandwagon, which means your "check-the-box" gender options will always make Godel shed a tear, while allowing people to write in their gender will potentially result in tons of meaningless static and hard-to-parse data.

But, from a marketing and sales standpoint, refusing to let people identify as toaster-kin might cause you to lose customers, whereas letting them identify as such might earn you new and more loyal customers. (Of course, an entirely different set of customers might leave in a huff if you chose to acknowledge gender-nonconforming folks, so you have to do some cost/benefit analysis here.)

what irks me about the kin being regarded as a gender as well as stuff like fae- and voidgender, is that the people who argue these are legitimate non-binary genders have a very poor grasp on what gender actually is

hell, they don't even really understand what actual transphobia is. but it's kind of a buzzword now so you can certainly goad a whole bunch of people into either believing that the stuff you made up is legit or making the ones who disagree stay quiet when you say they'll be labelled as a transphobic bigot if they don't agree

[Toboe]

16 hours ago, Saxon said:

If somebody has pronounced gender dysphoria, such that ticking a box on a form causes them physical discomfort, that is their lookout and they should change. They should not expect all of society to feel guilty about not accommodating their esoteric and ridiculous problem with forms. :\

If banks did ask for gender, the next thing to happen would be hoards of sanctimonious twits complaining that 'they should not need to know my gender' or that the list of genders offered doesn't include their own esoteric label.

You can't please those sorts of people; the only way to win is to ignore them.

Because it is brought up by someone stupidly overreacting* it can't be a minor thing? "They did not give any good reason?" Sure, but completely denounce a topic because it has been touched by them seems a bit outlandish.

And the question "what do they need it for" DOES make sense under Datensparsamkeit (Data-frugality? Link is in english, but doesn't have a good translation for that term, either).

 

*Did not read the link, so not gonna make a statement if they did or did not, but assuming they did...

[Vallium]

I have a hypothesis, Historically speaking, transgenderness probably only vaguely existed in the form of crossdressers and anyone secretly presenting as the sex biologically differing from their own.

Seeing as its an internal condition before we had a name for a bit Im assuming they either coped in those ways (seeing as surgery and therapy was pretty nonexistent)...or didnt live long enough 

I always assume this is the reason why we have many common conditions like depression and the like, 

...if you werent a stable human being, science didnt help keep you alive and in stable capacity, natural selection took you out.

[Toshabi]

12 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

I have a hypothesis, Historically speaking, transgenderness probably only vaguely existed in the form of crossdressers and anyone secretly presenting as the sex biologically differing from their own.

Seeing as its an internal condition before we had a name for a bit Im assuming they either coped in those ways (seeing as surgery and therapy was pretty nonexistent)...or didnt live long enough 

I always assume this is the reason why we have many common conditions like depression and the like, 

...if you werent a stable human being, science didnt help keep you alive and in stable capacity, natural selection took you out.

Science officially rules.

[Zeke]

3 hours ago, Zaraphayx said:

Yeah and look what happened to them. :^)

Still around?

[Crazy Lee]

4 hours ago, Troj said:

Oddly, I feel this ties in with one of the things I alluded to in my post:

 

They keep mentioning neo-liberalism... but from their description it sounds more like libertarianism or classical 19th century liberalism... small government, privatization, free markets and trade, lassiz faire, personal freedom and liberty, the market will fix everything.

 

On 5/5/2016 at 8:00 PM, Vae said:

The lines between gender and the application of gender roles basically didn't apply to a lot of my life growing up.
I was never expected to be "the girl." I went hunting. I went camping. I rolled around in the dirt. I collected bugs. I punched people for kicks. I had a shitload of dinosaurs and trucks and assorted things as a child.

I can put on a dress and still feel like a dude.
Hell, I wore makeup and a purse today, and went shopping, and still felt like a dude. Granted, I didn't actually present, because I didn't want awkward questions from my sole mode of transportation.

Honestly that sounds more like transgender than genderfluid.


I have noticed for a while that the vast majority of genderfluid or non-binary types I have seen out there have been bio-female (I think this is a term I'm going to try to get people to use regularly, it means what you have between your legs not your gender identity). Also, the vast majority of other special snowflake types also tend to be bio-female. I personally only know of two bio-male who are fluid. I don't know if this is actually the case (having not looked down anyone's pants), or if maybe I'm being confused by large armies of neo-feminist tumblr women who label themselves with such labels as to feel special about themselves.

I have considered that the possibility is because of gender roles and sexism in the world. In society, with women having certain gender expectations, with women feeling victimized constantly, with rape and sexual assault, bio-females may feel more comfortable identifying as the male gender. If you look at how society treats women as weaker, with calling someone a "pussy" when they're cowardly, or saying things like "Throw like a girl" or "hit like a girl" or "____ like a girl", perhaps feeling more manly, more aggressive, or just not "weak" may be more comfortable. 

At least, that is what I feel may account for the disparity of way more biological females being genderfluid, genderqueer, non-binary, agender and the like. Which is why I wondered if genderfluid was people saying they don't "feel" like typical gender roles... "I don't feel like a woman, or like society expects a woman to feel and be like (girly, sexy, weak)" or "I don't feel like a man, or how society expects a man to feel and act like (masculine, tough)". It's probably more than just this but it may be part of it.

[Photoshop Amateur]

On 5/3/2016 at 11:24 PM, Conker said:

Eh. I mean, I guess of asexuality can exist then being agender is no different.

I dunno. I'm not going to say much on this topic because I personally believe it's just one giant load of horse shit among other things. Though the only thing I will say is that asexuality is real but from my knowledge it's usually due to either:

 

Chemical imbalance

or

Past traumatic experiences

 

So really, a lot of this retarded shit can be linked to imbalances of chemicals in the brain or being severly mistreated as a child but this is just my opinion on it and all I will say. Otherwise I'll just rant on about it.

[Conker]

2 hours ago, Photoshop Amateur said:

I dunno. I'm not going to say much on this topic because I personally believe it's just one giant load of horse shit among other things. Though the only thing I will say is that asexuality is real but from my knowledge it's usually due to either:

 

Chemical imbalance

or

Past traumatic experiences

 

So really, a lot of this retarded shit can be linked to imbalances of chemicals in the brain or being severly mistreated as a child but this is just my opinion on it and all I will say. Otherwise I'll just rant on about it.

Yeah but chemical imbalances are the cause to a lot of things. Our bodies are nothin' but chemistry.

I could theoretically go see a doctor and get a bunch of tests done and maybe find a chemical imbalance as to why my sex drive is super low/don't really want to fuck anyone. Maybe it's testosterone, or maybe it's something else. Whatever.

Thing is, my lack of needing to stick my dick in a hole doesn't hinder me at all other than, "i guess I should figure out a label for this."

Though sex and gender themselves are really different in conversations like this, so this is probably a tangent.

[Half-Note]

Kudos to the banks for not catering to the irrational needs of young adults.

[Cingal]

Alternative title:

 

Snowflake grows up in England and finds it only snows once a year, if you're lucky.

[Vallium]

9 hours ago, Crazy Lee said:

They keep mentioning neo-liberalism... but from their description it sounds more like libertarianism or classical 19th century liberalism... small government, privatization, free markets and trade, lassiz faire, personal freedom and liberty, the market will fix everything.

 

Honestly that sounds more like transgender than genderfluid.


I have noticed for a while that the vast majority of genderfluid or non-binary types I have seen out there have been bio-female (I think this is a term I'm going to try to get people to use regularly, it means what you have between your legs not your gender identity). Also, the vast majority of other special snowflake types also tend to be bio-female. I personally only know of two bio-male who are fluid. I don't know if this is actually the case (having not looked down anyone's pants), or if maybe I'm being confused by large armies of neo-feminist tumblr women who label themselves with such labels as to feel special about themselves.

I have considered that the possibility is because of gender roles and sexism in the world. In society, with women having certain gender expectations, with women feeling victimized constantly, with rape and sexual assault, bio-females may feel more comfortable identifying as the male gender. If you look at how society treats women as weaker, with calling someone a "pussy" when they're cowardly, or saying things like "Throw like a girl" or "hit like a girl" or "____ like a girl", perhaps feeling more manly, more aggressive, or just not "weak" may be more comfortable. 

At least, that is what I feel may account for the disparity of way more biological females being genderfluid, genderqueer, non-binary, agender and the like. Which is why I wondered if genderfluid was people saying they don't "feel" like typical gender roles... "I don't feel like a woman, or like society expects a woman to feel and be like (girly, sexy, weak)" or "I don't feel like a man, or how society expects a man to feel and act like (masculine, tough)". It's probably more than just this but it may be part of it.

Yes but what every female has to come to realize is just because society had roles and expectations for the longest time that they didnt fit, it doesnt mean they arent a woman. You can still be masculine/butch/boyish whatever and still be a girl. Society is starting to back the female role through feminism/egalitarianism/whatever-the-frick-you-want-to-call-equality. Someone who is female or male isnt going to not be female or male because they dont fit a common role. 

At some point you have to realize you dont need the label to describe your personality (Im strong and tough and like sports so Im a boy)...I say this very loosely since its not my place to judge who is and isnt and its rather some vague opinion but I guess in order to be """truly trans""" one likely must experience some kind of desire or drive to change some or more physical aspects of their physical sex to match the opposite sex to their own (the whole idea of transgender to begin with). I cant quite understand myself why one would call themself trans and have no desire to change any aspect...

[willow]

13 hours ago, Crazy Lee said:

 

Honestly that sounds more like transgender than genderfluid

Gender fluid falls under the transgender umbrella....

[Endless/Nameless]

2 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Yes but what every female has to come to realize is just because society had roles and expectations for the longest time that they didnt fit, it doesnt mean they arent a woman. You can still be masculine/butch/boyish whatever and still be a girl. Society is starting to back the female role through feminism/egalitarianism/whatever-the-frick-you-want-to-call-equality. Someone who is female or male isnt going to not be female or male because they dont fit a common role. 

At some point you have to realize you dont need the label to describe your personality (Im strong and tough and like sports so Im a boy)...I say this very loosely since its not my place to judge who is and isnt and its rather some vague opinion but I guess in order to be """truly trans""" one likely must experience some kind of desire or drive to change some or more physical aspects of their physical sex to match the opposite sex to their own (the whole idea of transgender to begin with). I cant quite understand myself why one would call themself trans and have no desire to change any aspect...

I don't watch sports and I like to listen to Joni Mitchell. Does that mean I'm a girl? :0 

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

[Dr. Doggo]

if gender is a spectrum maybe everyone could pick their place on it in the same way we use boring hex codes for the colour spectrum and the fad would die out immediately and we'll just be left with psychological problems that we accept as real

idk why there needs to be special identifiers for people who just feel as if they're a bit butch for a traditional lady, or feel like a bit of a jelly-wristed fairy for a traditional man, or need to invent another word for "hmm I'm a man and I like women and I only want to have serious relationships with women but i also like getting it up the arse from a nice big lumberjack on occasion but im not really attracted to them emotionally" and campaign to get it put into the oxford dictionary and link arms with people like you as you collectively deny that you're just bisexual

if you seriously sexually identify as doubleplegic quadraspazxual or whatever other made-up crap, you need a psychiartrist, not yet another bloody box to tick

to me it seems like a small fraction of young people of this generation are just starved for identity or purpose in general and all these made-up terms being embraced because of that. its like retarded teenage fads of days gone by like saying "i dont like skater dudes or hipsters but im not an emo or a goth oemg educate urself im CYBERGOTH get it right you bigoted fossils" in the face of their concerned parents

 

[Feelwell]

8 minutes ago, Sir Gibby said:

if you seriously sexually identify as doubleplegic quadraspazxual or whatever other made-up crap, you need a psychiartrist, not yet another bloody box to tick

 

I identify as doubleplegic quadraspazxual and find this very insulting. Check your privilege.

Who wants to bet when these gender issues are resolved the world will have to debate species and the otherkin will rise and we'll need to petition for otter x husky marriage and stuff?

[Wax]

18 minutes ago, Sir Gibby said:

if you seriously sexually identify as doubleplegic quadraspazxual or whatever other made-up crap, you need a psychiartrist, not yet another bloody box to tick

to me it seems like a small fraction of young people of this generation are just starved for identity or purpose in general and all these made-up terms being embraced because of that. its like retarded teenage fads of days gone by like saying "i dont like skater dudes or hipsters but im not an emo or a goth oemg educate urself im CYBERGOTH get it right you bigoted fossils" in the face of their concerned parents

it also takes away the seriousness of people who suffer extremely real, genuinely horrible gender dysphoria.

[Vallium]

2 hours ago, Endless/Nameless said:

I don't watch sports and I like to listen to Joni Mitchell. Does that mean I'm a girl? :0 

35 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

2016

>boy

girl

boy

in game terms youre totally screwed pick one, dammit

girl

boy or girl

not a gender

Just fucking pick one

 

[Toboe]

1 hour ago, Sir Gibby said:

to me it seems like a small fraction of young people of this generation are just starved for identity or purpose in general and all these made-up terms being embraced because of that. its like retarded teenage fads of days gone by like saying "i dont like skater dudes or hipsters but im not an emo or a goth oemg educate urself im CYBERGOTH get it right you bigoted fossils" in the face of their concerned parents

Ignore the stupids and discuss the rest? But that would be productive! Can't have that, have to bring that idiocy up when and wherever. :V

Seriously can't stand giving that bull too much attention.

[Ratmomma]

Whoa nelly, this thread was a ride to read up to this point right here. I can't be bothered to go find what I'm about to quote, because it's 1am and I'm a lazy fuck, but on the first page (I think), a post had mentioned the slew of identifiers that are around now (xi/xir/hir/toaster/vorewhore/fae/faeself/shitpostlet/etc/etc^2), and I can't help but think to a big stink on dA (and this has risen again alongside this identifier storm on Tumblr) a few years ago when labeling yourself with a psychiatric disorder was the fun, new, hip patch to slap on your profile to make you look unique, special, exceptional, or someone worthy of special recognition, asspats, donation money/art/points, pity parties. Want attention? Say you have schizophrenia. Want some gullible twit to buy you that game on steam? Holy shit, I just developed bipolar I disorder! LOOK AT HOW SPECIAL AND UNIQUE I AM WITH MY PSYCHIATRIC DISORDER, EVERYONE! NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME! I'M SO SPECIAL EVERYONE!

I can't help but see a similar thing happening with these personal identifiers right now. I feel that all these extraneous labels make actual people with actual fucking gender dysphoria look like fake as those who make up shitty fashion statement identifiers, and that's not alright. It's not alright for people to give themselves a psych disorder for pity/attention points, and that applies to these oddball identifiers as well. They take away legitimacy from the people that actually suffer from whatever psych disorder, or actually have gender dysphoria, or are actually transitioning or already have.

[Red Lion]

Problem with kin-gender. Half of the shit they come up with is shit I don't even believe in.

I do not believe in unicorns, dragons, griffons or anything else that doesn't exist so asking me to acknowledge your "Dragon gender" as a real thing is impossible, the best I'd be able to do is humor you and agree that you believe you're a dragon. Nothing in your biology can be dragon, no hormone, brain chemical or dna chromosome can equate to dragon. It's just not possible. You can however be any mix of male and female hormones and chromosomes which can cause you to feel like you are both, neither, or one or the other. So adding a whole long list of random genders that may not even be based off of things that exist is going to be really inconvenient for pretty much everyone involved. Not to mention with the battle for transgender rights going on catering to some pimply little shitbag who says his pronoun is "fae" is like rubbing salt in a wound. Years of fighting just to try and be viewed as a normal male/female suddenly undermined by some tumblr brat who pulled something out of his ass cause he thought it sounded cool. There's a punch in the gut if there ever was one. 

That said I can buy having an "other" box for people that are biologically intersex or identify as a third gender or who even aren't sure what gender they'd fall under. We don't need to get crazy by putting lions and tigers and bears on the form but maybe a third box for people who don't quite fit the binary physically or mentally wouldn't hurt. 

I also find that a lot of genderfluid people don't feel discomfort over their physical selves, they just have an issue with conventional gender roles, and frankly that's not the same as being transgender so I don't feel it actually should count towards a legitimate gender related identity. Gender roles are social, not biological, they may have evolved from biological functions back in the day but there is no real physical obligation to conform to one and choosing to defy gender roles doesn't make you a different gender. Doesn't mean there are no truly genderfluid people who don't fit the biological binary, but how you feel about your physical self and your gender should not be a product of society since society is a changeable factor.  

[Saxon]

The Fursona box on my passport only has 3 species of fox to choose from. :C

 

[Vallium]

...not to say gender roles dont affect someone who's already trans. Its just adding more stress to someone to conform to something they arent even just because its what they physically are

Stringent gender roles cam harm anyone, really. But if you say youre trans just because of gender roles it kind of isnt the same

...Im no expert but this is shiz I pick up by being attentive to what is and isnt what makes up a concept. 

[Lopori]

If banks and other such things instist on asking for gender I really don't think it's that's much of a stretch to add a third category on forms. Believe it or not non-binary dysphoria is as real as binary trans, it's very confusing because I don't know what I want, I my body wouldn't feel 100% right no matter what I was born with, I do want to take T and make my body more adrogynous though. And saying "just pick bio sex hur" does not take into account intersex people, either. It's true that until this changes this person should just get the account under F, but still try and work to change the system afterwards. 

I can't stand rabid SJW-isms myself but simply asking for a legal recognition of a third gender is really not a huge deal. I don't believe we need all those subcategories and labels that tumblr lists because labels are overrated yo. When applied correctly some labelling can be comforting, you know where you stand. And I find it hypocritical when binary trans people poo-poo third genders because at one point they were also poo-pooed by some cis folks. It's just like when some gays and lesbians shun bisexuals for betraying their camp and being petty over it. Do I scream and shout when someone forgets to call me they/he, or scream oppression when I get deadnamed? No of course not I'm not a twat. But I still get rightly upset lbecause even if I politely corrected them people would think I'm a special snowflake. Anything people don't understand because they don't experience it is dismissed as "special snowflake" and "SJW". As an anti-SJ I find other anti-SJs just as obnoxious as SJs. 

[Elektranine]

lol there is no such thing as genderfluid or agender or any such shit as that. You are either a boy or a girl. Special snowflakes

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

27 minutes ago, Elektranine said:

lol there is no such thing as genderfluid or agender or any such shit as that. You are either a boy or a girl. Special snowflakes

 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Elektranine said:

lol there is no such thing as genderfluid or agender or any such shit as that. You are either a boy or a girl. Special snowflakes

[MuttButt]

It'd be nice if humans weren't so keen on sorting themsleves into categories and groups and labels, and we could like whatever we please, be friends with, be attracted to, and love anybody we want to without preconceptions bieng attached to us based on our looks, our color, and our genitals. But that's just wishful thinking huh?

I think both extremes (the bigoted conservatives and tumblr SJW types) are ridiculous and until we get all of this biz sorted out y'all can just refer to me as a matty :3

 

 

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, MuttButt said:

It'd be nice if humans weren't so keen on sorting themsleves into categories and groups and labels, and we could like whatever we please, be friends with, be attracted to, and love anybody we want to without preconceptions bieng attached to us based on our looks, our color, and our genitals. But that's just wishful thinking huh?

I think both extremes (the bigoted conservatives and tumblr SJW types) are ridiculous and until we get all of this biz sorted out y'all can just refer to me as a matty :3

 

 

too pure for this world, my sweet cinnamon roll

[Augmented Husky]

The bank should have read this book :V

[Crazy Lee]

On 5/7/2016 at 3:28 AM, Red Lion said:

I also find that a lot of genderfluid people don't feel discomfort over their physical selves, they just have an issue with conventional gender roles, and frankly that's not the same as being transgender so I don't feel it actually should count towards a legitimate gender related identity. Gender roles are social, not biological, they may have evolved from biological functions back in the day but there is no real physical obligation to conform to one and choosing to defy gender roles doesn't make you a different gender. Doesn't mean there are no truly genderfluid people who don't fit the biological binary, but how you feel about your physical self and your gender should not be a product of society since society is a changeable factor.  

That's what I've wondered, if many genderfluid are just rejecting gender roles, or you have to be a certain way to be a man, and you have to be a certain way to be woman. Society has set up these conditions where you're no a real man/woman unless you do stuff, dress in a way, ect. At least that might explain why the majority of genderfluid I see were originally born female.

[Lopori]

Re AFAB genderfluids: It's really hard to say who are merelly rejecting gender roles and cross dressing or whose neurology actually changes between male and female. That does actually happen tbh, the mind can't really stay consistent over a whole life time it changes non stop. I had long moments in childhood when I was fairly girly. It wasn't until puberty set in that I started to feel a disconnect from my physical sex that fluctated constantly between male and andrgoynous. There is a social implication to whatever body parts you have, I do wonder if I would be so hellbent on hiding my female characteristics if people didn't assume what I was because of them? I'm with muttbutt on this one. I wish people would see me as an androgynous man regardless of my presentation and body parts but it's not going to happen. I love hyper girly aesthetics but so do a lot of cisguys, and that's why I have heaps of social dysphoria moreso than physical. 

There is something neurological that happens in gender fluid people, there is a bunch of research done on it. Granted much of it is fucking around with the hormones in rats but still. Fluidity of one's sexuality is already proved as a thing, why not gender identity? Children in particular are the most fluid gender wise. I do wonder if I have slightly higher male hormones in me considering the post-puberty onset. I am kinda hairy for a bio female. 

Sometimes I get the vibe from young AFAB genderfluids that come across like they're just cross dressing and taking on a new role. I see nothing wrong with that personally but I cannot call it trans per se, I believe you need either/both physical.and social dysphoria (I don't believe you have to dislike you body though, just feel a disconnect from it.) But even non-conformity is an identity in itself, just not necessarily a trans one? Of course some people disagree and don't think you need dysphoria but much of the time they just want in on something that they think looks cool. It's not cool though it's a shitshow for the people experiencing it. >.< I have met young people who request certain pronouns and call themselves genderfluid because they like to change their clothing styles (in their words not mine), of course I'm going to respect it even if I am quietly side-eyeing the whole thing, I'm not a dick.

On 19/05/2016 at 8:43 AM, Elektranine said:

lol there is no such thing as genderfluid or agender or any such shit as that. You are either a boy or a girl. Special snowflakes

Watch where you're going with that edge you're going to take someone's eye out, love. 

[FlynnCoyote]

Oh our species is doomed. Nobody wants to be the sex they were born as anymore. We'll have to resort to cloning and mass produced IVF facilities to continue the species, which will only further the problem because there will be no people with definitive gender roles to raise those offspring. :v

It will be hilarious.

[MuttButt]

9 hours ago, FlynnCoyote said:

Oh our species is doomed. Nobody wants to be the sex they were born as anymore. We'll have to resort to cloning and mass produced IVF facilities to continue the species, which will only further the problem because there will be no people with definitive gender roles to raise those offspring. :v

It will be hilarious.

With a population of 7 billion and growing, dwindling food and water supplies, overfishing, climate change, poverty, etc etc etc. I think the less people starting families and pumping out babies, the better.

[Ricky]

On 5/3/2016 at 6:02 PM, Conker said:

From what I gather, genderfluid are people whose gender changes based on the day, mood, phase of the moon, etc. They'll feel like a woman one minute and a man the next. So basically it's like being trans only you match half the time.

Sure, then the obvious thing to do is pick the one they "feel like" at the time, or at least closet to.

It's a fad, plain and simple. Kids rebel, now the next edgy thing is gender norms.

Great, have fun not getting a bank account. What a martyr :V

On 5/5/2016 at 7:25 PM, Troj said:

In fact, couldn't the bank just ask "sex" instead of "gender?" If this sort of dilemma becomes commonplace, I imagine you could request both sex and gender, theoretically.

I'm sure whoever wrote that wasn't thinking specifically of LGBT-specific definitions of the term "gender."

Most people think of sex when they hear gender.

[Lucyfish]

2 minutes ago, Ricky said:

I'm sure whoever wrote that wasn't thinking specifically of LGBT-specific definitions of the term "gender."

Most people think of sex when they hear gender.

Actually the "LGBT-specific" definition has been the dictionary definition for many decades now. Just because people have been using the word wrong for years doesn't mean the government should.

[Ricky]

3 minutes ago, Lucyfish said:

Actually the "LGBT-specific" definition has been the dictionary definition for many decades now. Just because people have been using the word wrong for years doesn't mean the government should.

They are using it correctly:

Quote

 

Definition of gender

1  a :  a subclass within a grammatical class (as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical formsb :  membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclassc :  an inflectional form showing membership in such a subclass

2  a :  sex <the feminine gender>

    b :  the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

 

 

[Conker]

11 minutes ago, Ricky said:

Sure, then the obvious thing to do is pick the one they "feel like" at the time, or at least closet to.

It's a fad, plain and simple. Kids rebel, now the next edgy thing is gender norms.

Great, have fun not getting a bank account. What a martyr :V

 

For the record, I'm not saying that's what a genderfluid person feels is false or that I don't believe them; what I am saying is that there are times to be prudent, and creating a bank account is one of them.

[Lucyfish]

4 minutes ago, Ricky said:

They are using it correctly:

 

None of that says that "sex" and "gender" are the same thing. Sex is still separate as the physical traits and genes of your birth, while gender is a social construct. They are very separate.

[Rabbit Head]

5 minutes ago, Lucyfish said:

None of that says that "sex" and "gender" are the same thing. Sex is still separate as the physical traits and genes of your birth, while gender is a social construct. They are very separate.

This is a true thing that's taught in psychology classes.

At least the one I attended.

[Ricky]

12 minutes ago, Conker said:

For the record, I'm not saying that's what a genderfluid person feels is false or that I don't believe them; what I am saying is that there are times to be prudent, and creating a bank account is one of them.

I know, and I completely agree on both points.

As far as a fad, for the record I think that is why it's become such a big thing.

I don't think it's true in every case.

It's like the asexual label. I see that used very frequently these days, and in most cases by people 15 years old or younger.

That's not even old enough to know what you want, let alone to know for a fact you don't want anything.

12 minutes ago, Lucyfish said:

None of that says that "sex" and "gender" are the same thing. Sex is still separate as the physical traits and genes of your birth, while gender is a social construct. They are very separate.

Do you not see "sex" as the definition, there? I put it in huge red letters and it is the very definition, itself.

Here's another:

Quote

1.1 The members of one or other sex

 

6 minutes ago, Rabbit Head said:

This is a true thing that's taught in psychology classes.

At least the one I attended.

That would be the LGBT-specific definition I was referring to. It's in the dictionary too, but it's a separate definition:

https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

Using it in the context of sex is perfectly reasonable, since that is also a definition (see huge red text, above).

[Lucyfish]

Just now, Ricky said:

Do you not see "sex" as the definition, there? I put it in huge red letters.

You're thinking of a thesaurus. The reason "sex" is there at the front is because dictionaries include words with multiple definitions to indicate that that particular definition is IN REGARDS to sex. The definition itself comes after, which is the characteristics typically assigned to a certain sex.

Typically.

TYPICALLY.

CHARACTERISTICS.

TYPICALLY.

FUCK.

[Conker]

2 minutes ago, Ricky said:

I know, and I completely agree on both points.

As far as a fad, for the record I think that is why it's become such a big thing.

I don't think it's true in every case.

It's like the asexual label. I see that used very frequently these days, and in most cases by people 15 years old or younger.

 

Goddamn. I'm 27 and I use that label and I still dunno if ti's actually true or not. It's just easier than going to therapy.