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22 hours ago, #00Buck said:

Your identity should not be based upon physical items. 

If your identity has to do with things you own, wear, or buy you really have no identity.

If someone takes away your items then your identity ceases to exist.

Who you are should be internal and should be expressed to the world by your thoughts, words, and actions. 

That is real identity.

The other thing is just fashion. 

I'v always found the people who try the hardest to look interesting on the outside are the most boring people on earth. 

Fashion is a poor substitute for personality. Those who are slaves to fashion have very little personality. 

I don't agree with this. Physical items are an important part of most cultures and identities.

People just don't need to constantly be expressing their identity all day long.

they don't need to clean them every day, potentially more than once a day, and often do a poor job at keeping them from getting irritated or infected. LOL I JUST GOT THIS PIERCING A FEW DAYS AGO proceeds to rub filthy fingers all over it.
 

Gross...body modification is one of the worst parts of western culture. Sticking pieces of pretty metal through flesh, is something one would expect of a primitive tribe of island savages.

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1 minute ago, PastryOfApathy said:

Maybe just maybe, one's identity is comprised of both physical characteristics as well as their personality/culture and all that.

 Deprive me of food and I will actually die; I am completely materialistic.

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6 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Gross...body modification is one of the worst parts of western culture. Sticking pieces of pretty metal through flesh, is something one would expect of a primitive tribe of island savages.

Not sure if trolling or being willfully ignorant.

Glass lobe plugs have been found with mummies from Ancient Egypt, among other far from savage cultures.

As far as not expressing your identity all day long, you know that expression can be done in degrees of severity right? Fucking lol

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1 hour ago, Clove Darkwave said:

Not sure if trolling or being willfully ignorant.

Glass lobe plugs have been found with mummies from Ancient Egypt, among other far from savage cultures.

As far as not expressing your identity all day long, you know that expression can be done in degrees of severity right? Fucking lol

It surprises me that mature cultures still often practice body modification, such as piercing, scarification, genital scarring and so on. I think it's a behaviour which harks right back to tribal peoples either trying to distinguish themselves from competing tribes with distinct permanent marks, or expressing hierarchy within the tribe- as you mentioned, the ancient Egyptians used genital scarring for both; either to make their men unpalatable to non-Egyptian woman (?and the reciprocal) or to distinguish priests and make them 'cleanly'. 

I think it's unfortunate that some forms of cosmetic body modification have been retained in western culture, or been re introduced from other cultures which have interacted with the west. As you pointed out, there is an associated risk of infection and I personally think that widespread notions such as 'women must have pierced ears' devalue the natural beauty of the human form. At least those forms of body modification are usually consensual though...many are not.

In short, it is extremely weird that lots of westerners think that burying pieces of mineral in their skin makes them look better. It very much reminds me of this sort of shit:

 

piercing_hist_1.jpg

24e5d229c2d794af12a94a26c3db5902.jpg

mursi31.jpg

hqdefault.jpg

Unnecessary body modification is simply the worst.

 

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27 minutes ago, Saxon said:

It surprises me that mature cultures still often practice body modification, such as piercing, scarification, genital scarring and so on. I think it's a behaviour which harks right back to tribal peoples either trying to distinguish themselves from competing tribes with distinct permanent marks, or expressing hierarchy within the tribe- as you mentioned, the ancient Egyptians used genital scarring for both; either to make their men unpalatable to non-Egyptian woman (?and the reciprocal) or to distinguish priests and make them 'cleanly'. 

I think it's unfortunate that some forms of cosmetic body modification have been retained in western culture, or been re introduced from other cultures which have interacted with the west. As you pointed out, there is an associated risk of infection and I personally think that widespread notions such as 'women must have pierced ears' devalue the natural beauty of the human form. At least those forms of body modification are usually consensual though...many are not.

In short, it is extremely weird that lots of westerners think that burying pieces of mineral in their skin makes them look better. It very much reminds me of this sort of shit:

 

piercing_hist_1.jpg

24e5d229c2d794af12a94a26c3db5902.jpg

mursi31.jpg

hqdefault.jpg

Unnecessary body modification is simply the worst.

 

Why is it unfortunate what we like to do? It doesn't affect you if we put metal all over ourselves.

The risks of infection are very low too.

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23 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I think it's unfortunate that some forms of cosmetic body modification have been retained in western culture, or been re introduced from other cultures which have interacted with the west. As you pointed out, there is an associated risk of infection and I personally think that widespread notions such as 'women must have pierced ears' devalue the natural beauty of the human form. At least those forms of body modification are usually consensual though...many are not.

In short, it is extremely weird that lots of westerners think that burying pieces of mineral in their skin makes them look better. It very much reminds me of this sort of shit:

Your personal taste has no bearing on other people, or what other people find aesthetically appealing.

It's similar to the neckbeardy complaints I've heard by men numerous times on the internet about how women "look better without too much makeup" and "shouldn't wear so much," without realizing that women aren't wearing makeup to appeal to their standards.
They do it simply because they like it, themselves, for the most part.

Personally, depending on the piercings, I feel like they "spice up" the face a little bit. Same thing with makeup, albeit makeup tends to be less permanent.
The plain human face is something I find a bit boring.
And although it does create holes in the skin (Something I don't personally mind the feeling of, and something that's not gonna get infected if you take care of it properly.), it's about the same as any other kind of jewelry.

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On 13 May 2016 at 5:52 PM, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Is it really that difficult to willingly accept a dress code? I mean if you want your green hair and snakebites so bad just go to school as a hairstylist or graphic designer or something.

 

Cater your look to your career choice, its not that hard

 

And if it really IS that hard, then you should evaluate if youre priority is looking pretty/badass 24 hours a day or if you actually want to get over it for 8 hours a day, get paid to live, and be as special and unique as you want to off the clock

This isn't fair to say at all. Why should someone have to choose between looking the way that makes them happy and doing the job they always wanted to do?

I should just quit med school next week and switch to a hair stylist course =V

Glad that no one cares if I go in all my finery to lectures and stuff, but what bothers me is that for the practical exams (and this is NHS policy basically too) we are allowed all the tattoos we want because we can't get rid of them (so basically, they merely tolerate our tattoos), but we have to take out our piercings.

The problem is my piercings aren't removable. That's not up or debate to me. Theyre just as much a part of my as my eyes or my bones. 

When im qualified I'm going to fight this system as hard as I can because putting my piercings back in won't make me any less of a good doctor. The amount of people who've said to me that it's wonderful or refreshing that I look how I do in this line of work is huge but I gotta dress down in case one person decides that that makes me bad at what I do.

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48 minutes ago, Vae said:

Your personal taste has no bearing on other people, or what other people find aesthetically appealing.

It's similar to the neckbeardy complaints I've heard by men numerous times on the internet about how women "look better without too much makeup" and "shouldn't wear so much," without realizing that women aren't wearing makeup to appeal to their standards.
They do it simply because they like it, themselves, for the most part.

Personally, depending on the piercings, I feel like they "spice up" the face a little bit. Same thing with makeup, albeit makeup tends to be less permanent.
The plain human face is something I find a bit boring.
And although it does create holes in the skin (Something I don't personally mind the feeling of, and something that's not gonna get infected if you take care of it properly.), it's about the same as any other kind of jewelry.

I think the personal standards of other people affect the group's definition of beauty, and that this is very unfortunate when it leads people to distort their anatomy in order to conform to that standard. Chinese foot binding is a very sharp example of that. History has a litany of other such examples, such as the use of poisonous lead compounds to whiten the skin, or corseting. Even in the modern skin-lightening creams are incredibly popular in much of Africa, even though they can cause severe irritation or even the incipience of cancers...the greatest irony with all of these examples is that they all endeavoured to 'correct' bodies which were never flawed in the first place.

The human form is acceptable as it is, and does not need to be spiced up with scars and embedded trinkets.

1 hour ago, Alexxx-Returns said:

Why is it unfortunate what we like to do? It doesn't affect you if we put metal all over ourselves.

The risks of infection are very low too.

The most unfortunate aspect is that widely expected standards sometimes get forced on people. For instance the USA most men are still circumcised.

Fortunately in England the pressure to make daughters get their ears pierced and stitched back seems to have abated; my Mum had her ears pierced after her mother insisted, and always regretted it because it gave her uncomfortably scars. Her mother also tried to make her have her ears pinned back (they aren't even any different to average), but she resisted.

As far as individual's choices go, I agree that it's their personal decision to augment their bodies, although I think there is some capacity for people who work in the body modification industry to take advantage of their clients, and that this needs to be closely watched and regulated (It was only recently that cosmetic surgeons in England were banned from offering 'buy one get one free' offers for surgical 'corrections' )

This isn't fair to say at all. Why should someone have to choose between looking the way that makes them happy and doing the job they always wanted to do?

I should just quit med school next week and switch to a hair stylist course =V

Glad that no one cares if I go in all my finery to lectures and stuff, but what bothers me is that for the practical exams (and this is NHS policy basically too) we are allowed all the tattoos we want because we can't get rid of them (so basically, they merely tolerate our tattoos), but we have to take out our piercings.

The problem is my piercings aren't removable. That's not up or debate to me. Theyre just as much a part of my as my eyes or my bones. 

When im qualified I'm going to fight this system as hard as I can because putting my piercings back in won't make me any less of a good doctor. The amount of people who've said to me that it's wonderful or refreshing that I look how I do in this line of work is huge but I gotta dress down in case one person decides that that makes me bad at what I do.

...I suspect that this is hygiene related, rather than part of a conspiracy forcing doctors to abandon their identities.

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16 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I think the personal standards of other people affect the group's definition of beauty, and that this is very unfortunate when it leads people to distort their anatomy in order to conform to that standard. Chinese foot binding is a very sharp example of that. History has a litany of other such examples, such as the use of poisonous lead compounds to whiten the skin, or corseting. Even in the modern skin-lightening creams are incredibly popular in much of Africa, even though they can cause severe irritation or even the incipience of cancers...the greatest irony with all of these examples is that they all endeavoured to 'correct' bodies which were never flawed in the first place.

The human form is acceptable as it is, and does not need to be spiced up with scars and embedded trinkets.

I don't know how something like Chinese foot binding or corsetry have anything to do with getting a relatively harmless, sterile piercing at a reputable place that knows what they're doing.
Getting a piece of metal in your face does not impact your ability to function, except in extreme cases.

None of my piercings (lip, nose, eyebrow, and ears) have caused any kind of actual complications, save for some swelling when they were initially put in.
And that quickly went away.

I will state again that your personal tastes have no bearing on other people, or what other people should or should not do with themselves.
And understand it for what it is: a difference in preference. Because that's all that it is.

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@Alexxx-Returns

If you manage to reform the system of the higher-ups or if you find managements are widely accepting of such things then go right ahead,

 

But really, if you arent a boss you cant decide what you want, even if its unfair. Good luck trying to get a job in your field you want and then nobody hires 

Lots of places are still pretty accepting and lenient of some piercings, tattoos but many still arent. And if people want to complain to those particular managers about it I doubt it'd have much affect. It might if you protest it rather mturely and reach a compromise, It depends entirely on them

I think something amount of years ago if you tried to be a pierced up tatted up doctor you'd be out of luck and no one would hire you without doing lots of cover up or removal.

 

If it wasnt apparent I have nothing against piercings and tattoos and like them myself but the ones who make the rules arent me and might...and Im not one to give up money for the sake of a job I dont like the aesthetics of. Dress code is as part of a career outlook as salary is.

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9 hours ago, Clove Darkwave said:

I work in a body piercing jewelry store, so naturally I don't have this problem at all. In fact not wearing a uniform is how people know I work there. Go figure.

In the years I've seen piercings 5 days a week, yeah I'm going to agree that they can be an issue with cleanliness because some people are convinced that they don't need to clean them every day, potentially more than once a day, and often do a poor job at keeping them from getting irritated or infected. LOL I JUST GOT THIS PIERCING A FEW DAYS AGO proceeds to rub filthy fingers all over it.

On the other hand, retainers exist for all piercings in both clear bio-acrylic and glass. Lobe piercings have a wide variety of flesh-tone hiders made by Khaos. Most employers just ask you to make an effort to conceal them, the ones that won't accept that are kind of just being a dick and are likely the ones that take issue with any tattoos period as well. My favorite are the double-morons that won't let staff wear retainers and instead demand they cover it with bandages, because that's totally less obvious and less diseased looking.

However speaking as someone with experience in management, I can also say that their motivations are sometimes motivated more by having the least amount of bullshit to deal with. They don't like people any more than you do and really just want less problems to deal with.

Pretty much this. Some people are really filthy. I've seen people walking around with things like paperclips and safety pins in their piercing holes. It's also kind of off putting if you're talking to a customer and you won't stop using your tongue or fingers to play with your lip ring. It's kind of crappy because now we have a situation of "A few gross morons killed it for every one." And given the choice between weeding out people who are irresponsible or just banning all of it they'll ban all of it because that's what's easiest. 

Our Food Lion used to not really enforce their piercing policy and let people come in with lip rings and nose rings and such but I'm going to guess, like my manager friend from Wal-Mart said, that people came in with infections and then handled the produce or they lost some of their jewelry in the store. 

Jobs aside, I think people should do whatever they want with their bodies. Tattoo and pierce that shit to your heart's content. 

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22 minutes ago, Vae said:

I don't know how something like Chinese foot binding or corsetry have anything to do with getting a relatively harmless, sterile piercing at a reputable place that knows what they're doing.
Getting a piece of metal in your face does not impact your ability to function, except in extreme cases.

None of my piercings (lip, nose, eyebrow, and ears) have caused any kind of actual complications, save for some swelling when they were initially put in.
And that quickly went away.

I will state again that your personal tastes have no bearing on other people, or what other people should or should not do with themselves.
And understand it for what it is: a difference in preference. Because that's all that it is.

They're more extreme examples, which I'm using to demonstrate that the societal notion of beauty can become very distorted, such that people have preferences for things which are really quite odd.

We might look at somebody from the remote Congo with a stretched lip and think 'that is really odd'. They would probably look at westerners with ear gauges and nose rings and think the same thing.

So western notions of beauty also have arbitrary distortions. Some of these distortions are thankfully trivial, like ear piercing. Some of them will probably make future generations doubt our civility, such as the north American predisposition to circumcise and the recent proliferation of fake breast implants. 

If you manage to reform the system of the higher-ups or if you find managements are widely accepting of such things then go right ahead,

 

But really, if you arent a boss you cant decide what you want, even if its unfair. Good luck trying to get a job in your field you want and then nobody hires 

Lots of places are still pretty accepting and lenient of some piercings, tattoos but many still arent. And if people want to complain to those particular managers about it I doubt it'd have much affect. It might if you protest it rather mturely and reach a compromise, It depends entirely on them

I think something amount of years ago if you tried to be a pierced up tatted up doctor you'd be out of luck and no one would hire you without doing lots of cover up or removal.

 

If it wasnt apparent I have nothing against piercings and tattoos and like them myself but the ones who make the rules arent me and might...and Im not one to give up money for the sake of a job I dont like the aesthetics of. Dress code is as part of a career outlook as salary is.

I suspect that, if heavily tattooed doctors are not favoured for any reason, it is that tattoos entail a risk of blood infection.

People are banned from donating blood for a certain amount of time after a tattoo, because the risk of communicating infection is non-negligible.

Hence a surgeon who continues to have more tattoos could be regarded as putting their patients at risk, because accidental cuts could communicate blood diseases.

I would be surprised if there is any formal recognition of that though; English surgeons with HIV were recently permitted to begin operating again (they were formerly banned because of the risk of the communication of blood diseases through accidental cuts).

 

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54 minutes ago, Alexxx-Returns said:

When im qualified I'm going to fight this system as hard as I can because putting my piercings back in won't make me any less of a good doctor.

Even though infections relating to piercings are often not reported, it has been found that there is likely an increased risk of minor infection in medical professionals with piercings - recent or not. It has also been found that the risk of a spread of infection increases when one has or is exposed to another person with a piercing. The risk tends to increase when one handles their piercings or handles the pierced area. Here's an article that kind of touches on some of this.

The increased risk is minor, but the importance of that slight increase is up to those that run the facilities. There are worries that piercings could aid in spreading more than minor infections, though, but nobody reports piercing infections.

I really don't care whether or not somebody has a piercing, though. I tend not to even notice them unless they are hilariously ridiculous.

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1 minute ago, MalletFace said:

Even though infections relating to piercings are often not reported, it has been found that there is likely an increased risk of minor infection in medical professionals with piercings - recent or not. It has also been found that the risk of a spread of infection increases when one has or is exposed to another person with a piercing. The risk tends to increase when one handles their piercings or handles the pierced area. Here's an article that kind of touches on some of this.

The increased risk is minor, but the importance of that slight increase is up to those that run the facilities. There are worries that piercings could aid in spreading more than minor infections, though, but nobody reports piercing infections.

I really don't care whether or not somebody has a piercing, though. I tend not to even notice them unless they are hilariously ridiculous.

MalletFace knew this. I knew this.

I am fucking disappointed that a Medical student didn't know this and wanted to 'fight the system' over it.

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3 hours ago, MalletFace said:

Even though infections relating to piercings are often not reported, it has been found that there is likely an increased risk of minor infection in medical professionals with piercings - recent or not. It has also been found that the risk of a spread of infection increases when one has or is exposed to another person with a piercing. The risk tends to increase when one handles their piercings or handles the pierced area. Here's an article that kind of touches on some of this.

The increased risk is minor, but the importance of that slight increase is up to those that run the facilities. There are worries that piercings could aid in spreading more than minor infections, though, but nobody reports piercing infections.

I really don't care whether or not somebody has a piercing, though. I tend not to even notice them unless they are hilariously ridiculous.

 

3 hours ago, Saxon said:

MalletFace knew this. I knew this.

I am fucking disappointed that a Medical student didn't know this and wanted to 'fight the system' over it.

I didn't know any of that because they are teaching us far more important things right now. If there was any real hygiene problem with piercings, healthcare professionals wouldn't be allowed even the 1 stud in each ear that they are allowed.

I haven't read that article. I'd like to, but I can't right now. I get the impression from what you said that:

The ones at biggest risk in this setting are the ones who get the piercings. That's fair, if you work in that environment that's not surprising. If you're sensible I reckon you'd be extra vigilant during the healing time.

If you fiddle with your piercings and then touch a patient, you're putting them at a higher risk of infection. I get the feeling that a doctor who doesn't practice proper hand hygiene/infection control has way bigger problems if they can't get something that basic right. That is what they teach us in med school- wash your hands before touching patients.

If it was such a huge hygiene problem, they wouldn't let nurses and HCAs have them too. Many of us had piercings where I worked as a HCA, and letting your NURSES have multiple piercings is far, FAR worse for the patients than letting the doctors have multiple piercings because the nurses have far more patient contact.

Its cultural. You're allowed what is deemed an appropriate way of presenting yourself and that's all there is to it.

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6 hours ago, Saxon said:

It surprises me that mature cultures still often practice body modification, such as piercing, scarification, genital scarring and so on. I think it's a behaviour which harks right back to tribal peoples either trying to distinguish themselves from competing tribes with distinct permanent marks, or expressing hierarchy within the tribe- as you mentioned, the ancient Egyptians used genital scarring for both; either to make their men unpalatable to non-Egyptian woman (?and the reciprocal) or to distinguish priests and make them 'cleanly'. 

I think it's unfortunate that some forms of cosmetic body modification have been retained in western culture, or been re introduced from other cultures which have interacted with the west. As you pointed out, there is an associated risk of infection and I personally think that widespread notions such as 'women must have pierced ears' devalue the natural beauty of the human form. At least those forms of body modification are usually consensual though...many are not.

In short, it is extremely weird that lots of westerners think that burying pieces of mineral in their skin makes them look better. It very much reminds me of this sort of shit:

I hear ya. I can't believe we're still not all wearing gray unisex jumpsuits and obtaining all of our required nutrients through Soylent. If you're going to assert that people, in general, should not follow their own preferences in how they appear because those preferences can sometimes be damaging or coerced, then follow through.

As you well know, humans usually develop distinct identities, and being visually oriented, they tend to express themselves in their appearance. For some, this may be as absurd as wearing long pants and a heavy jacket in tropical climates. Others may simply opt to put discrete pieces of metal in their ears.

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On May 12, 2016 at 3:51 PM, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Here's an idea...maybe consider your career path before you get certain kinds of piercings, and once you do land a permanent/mostly permanent job it'd be wise to find one with a cool boss that doesnt mind piercings and then proceed to make near-permanent changes to your body.

 

If you work in an office then tough luck if you want a bunch of piercings at work, but if you actually did work at a piercing shop thats probably the easiest way to be certifiably pierced to your hearts content

While that makes sense, and is quite accurate to a degree, I must say it's a rather depressing philosophy to live by.

I want to get up in the morning and put on what makes me content, not prepare myself as a suitor to the system.

5 hours ago, Saxon said:

The human form is acceptable as it is, and does not need to be spiced up with scars and embedded trinkets.

I agree.

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27 minutes ago, Endless/Nameless said:

While that makes sense, and is quite accurate to a degree, I must say it's a rather depressing philosophy to live by.

I want to get up in the morning and put on what makes me content, not prepare myself as a suitor to the system.

I agree.

I think I understand, then. My original assertions were a bit harsh. It just never occured to me that it wasnt all that difficult to choose a career path that allows the self expression you want

Not only that lots of employers do allow leeway, such as having skin-colored tunnels when at work or moderate tattoos

 

In the end its all about reform and how soon society is able to accept people's self expressions (and the fact that it does not detract from theor work capabilities)

 

But until then I find it really inconvenient to be upset at corporate for being bullies when I could just express myself off the clock, and somewhat on the clock...and actually get a job with a uniform I would like.

I mean heck, I would get an armsleeve but even at the most recent place I want to try getting work at they have a 'no visible tattoos' policy. Its a shame but Im content with getting tattoos in less noticeable places

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On 5/13/2016 at 0:52 PM, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Is it really that difficult to willingly accept a dress code? I mean if you want your green hair and snakebites so bad just go to school as a hairstylist or graphic designer or something.

 

Cater your look to your career choice, its not that hard

 

And if it really IS that hard, then you should evaluate if youre priority is looking pretty/badass 24 hours a day or if you actually want to get over it for 8 hours a day, get paid to live, and be as special and unique as you want to off the clock

Lol As a hairstylist...I can assure you that, chances are, green hurr would not be happening and the owner of the salon would be up ur cockhole to change it.

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14 hours ago, Saxon said:

It surprises me that mature cultures still often practice body modification, such as piercing, scarification, genital scarring and so on. I think it's a behaviour which harks right back to tribal peoples either trying to distinguish themselves from competing tribes with distinct permanent marks, or expressing hierarchy within the tribe- as you mentioned, the ancient Egyptians used genital scarring for both; either to make their men unpalatable to non-Egyptian woman (?and the reciprocal) or to distinguish priests and make them 'cleanly'. 

I think it's unfortunate that some forms of cosmetic body modification have been retained in western culture, or been re introduced from other cultures which have interacted with the west. As you pointed out, there is an associated risk of infection and I personally think that widespread notions such as 'women must have pierced ears' devalue the natural beauty of the human form. At least those forms of body modification are usually consensual though...many are not.

In short, it is extremely weird that lots of westerners think that burying pieces of mineral in their skin makes them look better. It very much reminds me of this sort of shit:

 

piercing_hist_1.jpg

24e5d229c2d794af12a94a26c3db5902.jpg

mursi31.jpg

hqdefault.jpg

Unnecessary body modification is simply the worst.

 

I think with the exception of earrings, most piercings aren't done for the purpose of looking beautiful. most people get them because they look cool. B

I also don't think they'll ever become a standard of beauty. The general consensus most people have when it comes to piercings is that they're not aesthetically pleasing. Earrings are again, the only exception 

 

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9 hours ago, Alexxx-Returns said:

 

I didn't know any of that because they are teaching us far more important things right now. If there was any real hygiene problem with piercings, healthcare professionals wouldn't be allowed even the 1 stud in each ear that they are allowed.

I haven't read that article. I'd like to, but I can't right now. I get the impression from what you said that:

The ones at biggest risk in this setting are the ones who get the piercings. That's fair, if you work in that environment that's not surprising. If you're sensible I reckon you'd be extra vigilant during the healing time.

If you fiddle with your piercings and then touch a patient, you're putting them at a higher risk of infection. I get the feeling that a doctor who doesn't practice proper hand hygiene/infection control has way bigger problems if they can't get something that basic right. That is what they teach us in med school- wash your hands before touching patients.

If it was such a huge hygiene problem, they wouldn't let nurses and HCAs have them too. Many of us had piercings where I worked as a HCA, and letting your NURSES have multiple piercings is far, FAR worse for the patients than letting the doctors have multiple piercings because the nurses have far more patient contact.

Its cultural. You're allowed what is deemed an appropriate way of presenting yourself and that's all there is to it.

>> Fuck Hygiene; it's culture.

8 hours ago, Onnes said:

I hear ya. I can't believe we're still not all wearing gray unisex jumpsuits and obtaining all of our required nutrients through Soylent. If you're going to assert that people, in general, should not follow their own preferences in how they appear because those preferences can sometimes be damaging or coerced, then follow through.

As you well know, humans usually develop distinct identities, and being visually oriented, they tend to express themselves in their appearance. For some, this may be as absurd as wearing long pants and a heavy jacket in tropical climates. Others may simply opt to put discrete pieces of metal in their ears.

This is a slippery slope fallacy.

I said that I think body modification is a surprisingly archaic practice that our culture retains. I didn't say that everybody else should be forbidden from doing it, because I think that's unfortunate.

Furthermore your argument fails because plenty of behaviours and preferences are prohibited because of the amount of damage or coercion that is involved. The severity of the potential harm determines whether it is a good idea to actually ban something or not.

But I suppose that if you want female genital mutilation to be banned, then you obviously also want ear piercing to be banned and everybody should only eat approve nutrition pills. :V

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14 hours ago, Saxon said:

I think the personal standards of other people affect the group's definition of beauty

So your argument can be boiled down to "Degeneracy" is that it?

That you're attempting to draw parallels between something like a septum piercing and Chinese Foot-Binding is giving the impression that you don't know the first thing about what you're talking about and instead reach for reactionary material to further your opinion of "Stop wearing that it makes me uncomfortable".

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6 minutes ago, Clove Darkwave said:

So your argument can be boiled down to "Degeneracy" is that it?

That you're attempting to draw parallels between something like a septum piercing and Chinese Foot-Binding is giving the impression that you don't know the first thing about what you're talking about and instead reach for reactionary material to further your opinion of "Stop wearing that it makes me uncomfortable".

No, my argument doesn't boil down to degeneracy; that's a strawman.

The existence of more extreme forms of body modification, which were widely practiced even in advanced cultures, shows that societal notions of beauty can be distorted a huge amount. Do you agree with that?

Minerals embedded in the skin is an example, when you step outside of our own cultural bubble you look back it makes us look very much just as alien as any other tribe. Do you agree with that?

I think that the different distortions different cultures have show that these different notions of beauty are arbitrary. Do you agree with that?

Intact bodies in their natural state have nothing wrong with them.  Do you agree with that?

I feel bad for people who think they need to distort their flesh in order to look good or reaffirm their identity, to be honest, although I am uncertain you'd  be able to empathise with that because you work in a body modification shop, so you have a vested interest. 

I think you would at least agree though that the standards should not be forced on other people; that nobody should be pressured or made to have their body modified in order to adhere to an arbitrary cultural cosmetic standard.

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In stating all of these potentially agreeable ideas, I'm trying to find a point and can't.

 

I'd also like to point out your "fuck hygiene it's culture" quip is awfully short sighted when that only reflects the closing statement. Should be worth noting that she makes a rather good point about health codes existing, but for some reason not outright removing those who have pierced ears/body modification. at the least don't insult her and then disregard the point she makes when she replies.

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9 minutes ago, Saxon said:

No, my argument doesn't boil down to degeneracy; that's a strawman.

The existence of more extreme forms of body modification, which were widely practiced even in advanced cultures, shows that societal notions of beauty can be distorted a huge amount. Do you agree with that?

Minerals embedded in the skin is an example, when you step outside of our own cultural bubble you look back it makes us look very much just as alien as any other tribe. Do you agree with that?

I think that the different distortions different cultures have show that these different notions of beauty are arbitrary. Do you agree with that?

Intact bodies in their natural state have nothing wrong with them.  Do you agree with that?

I feel bad for people who think they need to distort their flesh in order to look good or reaffirm their identity, to be honest, although I am uncertain you'd  be able to empathise with that because you work in a body modification shop, so you have a vested interest. 

I think you would at least agree though that the standards should not be forced on other people; that nobody should be pressured or made to have their body modified in order to adhere to an arbitrary cultural cosmetic standard.

Your entire argument is one massive strawman, Saxon. So it has been from the very beginning when you opened on with how much it grosses you out. This subject is about simple body piercings in the work environment.

That being said and to steer this thread back on topic, I've never had my piercings be infected or filthy because I choose to educate myself on how to take care of them. There's an amazing amount of ignorance, sometimes willful, on this particular topic due in part to irresponsible """"piercers"""" and due also in part to lazy people who probably don't maintain other forms of hygiene either. Like Red Lion said earlier, it's a few assholes who ruin it for everyone and is more or less what is holding most places back.

But it's not the absolute, either. Here where I live it's rather common to see food industry workers with visible piercings, and the Renown Hospital here allows nurses to have piercings as well. Hygiene is everyone's responsibility and is ultimately what is needed. Unfortunately people just don't want to learn! Societies problems forever.

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16 hours ago, Saxon said:

It surprises me that mature cultures still often practice body modification, such as piercing, scarification, genital scarring and so on. I think it's a behaviour which harks right back to tribal peoples either trying to distinguish themselves from competing tribes with distinct permanent marks, or expressing hierarchy within the tribe- as you mentioned, the ancient Egyptians used genital scarring for both; either to make their men unpalatable to non-Egyptian woman (?and the reciprocal) or to distinguish priests and make them 'cleanly'. 

I think it's unfortunate that some forms of cosmetic body modification have been retained in western culture, or been re introduced from other cultures which have interacted with the west. As you pointed out, there is an associated risk of infection and I personally think that widespread notions such as 'women must have pierced ears' devalue the natural beauty of the human form. At least those forms of body modification are usually consensual though...many are not.

In short, it is extremely weird that lots of westerners think that burying pieces of mineral in their skin makes them look better. It very much reminds me of this sort of shit:

Unnecessary body modification is simply the worst.

How the fuck is getting your ear pierced at Wal-Mart or something even remotely comparable to the Chinese forcibly disfiguring their women?

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1 hour ago, Clove Darkwave said:

Your entire argument is one massive strawman, Saxon. So it has been from the very beginning when you opened on with how much it grosses you out. This subject is about simple body piercings in the work environment.

That being said and to steer this thread back on topic, I've never had my piercings be infected or filthy because I choose to educate myself on how to take care of them. There's an amazing amount of ignorance, sometimes willful, on this particular topic due in part to irresponsible """"piercers"""" and due also in part to lazy people who probably don't maintain other forms of hygiene either. Like Red Lion said earlier, it's a few assholes who ruin it for everyone and is more or less what is holding most places back.

But it's not the absolute, either. Here where I live it's rather common to see food industry workers with visible piercings, and the Renown Hospital here allows nurses to have piercings as well. Hygiene is everyone's responsibility and is ultimately what is needed. Unfortunately people just don't want to learn! Societies problems forever.

'I didn't make a strawman; you made a strawman'.

Very sophisticated argument.

How the fuck is getting your ear pierced at Wal-Mart or something even remotely comparable to the Chinese forcibly disfiguring their women?

So ear piercing and other forums of cosmetic scarring are also disfigurements, just less severe. What exactly people view as disfigurement is subjective and  is determined by their cultural norms; some people accept really rather severe forms of disfigurement as new standards of beauty.

All of these body modification practices ultimately hark back to some tribal dreaming time, back when the most primitive humans began scarring themselves to denote status or become distinguished. So the existence of body modification in the west is, to me, a reminder that even very advanced societies still retain characteristics right from their most primitive roots.

I think it is a shame that, all through human history, lots of people have scarred themselves to do that, because there isn't anything amiss with the intact human body...and it is still undervalued, to be honest. 

Saying 'I don't like piercings' results in a huge tirade of angry posters. Other users in this thread have said they think the human face is 'boring' and needs to be 'jazzed up' with scars and pieces of metal- really quite a horrible thing to say. Nobody bats an eye about that.

 

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3 hours ago, Saxon said:

'I didn't make a strawman; you made a strawman'.

Very sophisticated argument.

So ear piercing and other forums of cosmetic scarring are also disfigurements, just less severe. What exactly people view as disfigurement is subjective and  is determined by their cultural norms; some people accept really rather severe forms of disfigurement as new standards of beauty.

All of these body modification practices ultimately hark back to some tribal dreaming time, back when the most primitive humans began scarring themselves to denote status or become distinguished. So the existence of body modification in the west is, to me, a reminder that even very advanced societies still retain characteristics right from their most primitive roots.

I think it is a shame that, all through human history, lots of people have scarred themselves to do that, because there isn't anything amiss with the intact human body...and it is still undervalued, to be honest. 

Saying 'I don't like piercings' results in a huge tirade of angry posters. Other users in this thread have said they think the human face is 'boring' and needs to be 'jazzed up' with scars and pieces of metal- really quite a horrible thing to say. Nobody bats an eye about that.

 

Surely it's also a reminder that it's therefore something very human to do. If humans throughout all of our existence have been changing our bodies for whatever purpose, maybe that's natural to us. I mean... what IS natural? is it the intact skin we're born with? Is it the part of our brain that makes us put markings on our bodies to define ourselves?

Here's a controversial opinion - I don't think pregnancy and childbirth are at all natural. They're a massively fucked up means to an end and massively fuck up the body. One of those things that evolved JUST enough to not [always] kill the person involved. That sounds crazy, right? Because it IS a natural thing. It's not pretty, but it's definitely nature.

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36 minutes ago, Alexxx-Returns said:

Surely it's also a reminder that it's therefore something very human to do. If humans throughout all of our existence have been changing our bodies for whatever purpose, maybe that's natural to us. I mean... what IS natural? is it the intact skin we're born with? Is it the part of our brain that makes us put markings on our bodies to define ourselves?

Here's a controversial opinion - I don't think pregnancy and childbirth are at all natural. They're a massively fucked up means to an end and massively fuck up the body. One of those things that evolved JUST enough to not [always] kill the person involved. That sounds crazy, right? Because it IS a natural thing. It's not pretty, but it's definitely nature.

For the purpose of the discussion, an intact body is the 'natural' mode and cosmetic disfigurements are man made. One would hardly say that silicon breasts are natural 'because people have been customising their bodies since the dreaming time' or that discarded coke-cans are natural, because humans have always been discarding objects.

The natural human form doesn't have anything objectively cosmetically wrong with it , even if some users here say that it is 'boring'. So attempts to improve it by adding disfigurements or scars strike me as misguided. I suppose people who end up regretting their body modifications can sympathise with that perspective.

 

On the subject of childbirth, the reason that it is so dangerous in humans is because of the relatively recent evolution of large brain sizes, which makes it difficult for the head of the foetus to pass through the hips. The hips cannot broaden to accommodate this massive head, because they are mechanically constrained by the requirements of bipedal locomotion.

At least we have a better situation than Hyenas, in which two thirds of first pregnancies end in the death of the kitten and one sixth end in the death of the mother, because the mother gives birth through a tubular psuedo-penis. Pseudo-penis structures are actually surprisingly common in nature, even existing in some monkey species, including some sub-groups of humans, such as the khoisan african women, who have a 10cm pseudopenis made from extended labia (a natural occurrence in this group).

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I've had piercing regret. An eyebrow piercing that just wasn't working out for me so I removed it, left quite a visible scar.

Oh well, life goes on. I've got numerous scars all over, some much larger than others, from misfortune life has thrown my way. I don't see any reason why I should care. Life is going to mutilate you before it's all over, and above all...

We're all going to be just as ugly when we're dead.

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@Saxon, I for one tend to agree with you on this topic.

But you've made your point by now. We respect your intelligent opinions, but you need to learn how to move on; you don't always have to get the last word. You're damaging both your argument and your reputation this way. 

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10 hours ago, Saxon said:

So ear piercing and other forums of cosmetic scarring are also disfigurements, just less severe. What exactly people view as disfigurement is subjective and  is determined by their cultural norms; some people accept really rather severe forms of disfigurement as new standards of beauty.

All of these body modification practices ultimately hark back to some tribal dreaming time, back when the most primitive humans began scarring themselves to denote status or become distinguished. So the existence of body modification in the west is, to me, a reminder that even very advanced societies still retain characteristics right from their most primitive roots.

I think it is a shame that, all through human history, lots of people have scarred themselves to do that, because there isn't anything amiss with the intact human body...and it is still undervalued, to be honest. 

Saying 'I don't like piercings' results in a huge tirade of angry posters. Other users in this thread have said they think the human face is 'boring' and needs to be 'jazzed up' with scars and pieces of metal- really quite a horrible thing to say. Nobody bats an eye about that.

You have to be pretty dense to not see the world of difference between a tiny, mostly non-noticeable hole in the cartilage of your earlobe and crippling the legs in a way that makes it literally impossible to walk normally.

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10 minutes ago, PastryOfApathy said:

You have to be pretty dense to not see the world of difference between a tiny, mostly non-noticeable hole in the cartilage of your earlobe and crippling the legs in a way that makes it literally impossible to walk normally.

You just asked me this question: :\

10 hours ago, PastryOfApathy said:

How the fuck is getting your ear pierced at Wal-Mart or something even remotely comparable to the Chinese forcibly disfiguring their women?

I already explained why ear piercing reminded me of other more extreme forms of body modification.

I shouldn't have bothered.

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I think piercings are okay and all, but I definitely prefer tattoos. They're like beautiful (if you invest in 'em) little stories on your skin you can take with you anywhere. 

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On 5/14/2016 at 10:23 AM, Alexxx-Returns said:

This isn't fair to say at all. Why should someone have to choose between looking the way that makes them happy and doing the job they always wanted to do?

I should just quit med school next week and switch to a hair stylist course =V

Glad that no one cares if I go in all my finery to lectures and stuff, but what bothers me is that for the practical exams (and this is NHS policy basically too) we are allowed all the tattoos we want because we can't get rid of them (so basically, they merely tolerate our tattoos), but we have to take out our piercings.

The problem is my piercings aren't removable. That's not up or debate to me. Theyre just as much a part of my as my eyes or my bones. 

When im qualified I'm going to fight this system as hard as I can because putting my piercings back in won't make me any less of a good doctor. The amount of people who've said to me that it's wonderful or refreshing that I look how I do in this line of work is huge but I gotta dress down in case one person decides that that makes me bad at what I do.

Jumping into this a bit late, but here's my two cents.

I've more or less gone through what you're experiencing and from what I understand the whole point of them making you remove piercings in clinical duties is a mixture of hygiene and patient comfort. People in the medical field are exposed to all sorts of nasty shit on a perpetual basis and you're just asking to get an infection when you keep piercings. Hand hygiene helps, but you cant control all the incidental projectile bodily fluids that WILL happen to you in your career.

And you're absolutely correct that it is also a cultural thing. People in the medical field are expected to look and act as professionals. And the cultural perception of a professional in someone clean cut and well dressed. The purpose of this is to instill trust in you in the patient. You have to keep in mind that the majority of people who utilize health care are the elderly. Their cultural perception is that people with tattoos and piercings are low class/drug/gang related, so its harder for them to trust you to be capable of taking care of their most precious possession: their body. The old often fear change and suffer from degrees of dementia and you're just adding a new layer of undo stress to them when they're already sick and you come in all tatted out and pierced. Yes, it sucks not getting to express yourself the way you want to, but part of being a professional is being willing to put aside your own comfort to do what needs doing. Its why we're held to a higher standard in society. I imagine this issue will lessen on its own with time as our generation ages given our generation's more willing acceptance of tattoos and piercings as the norm.

Tldr: my two cents~ You and Saxon are both right. Its matter of hygiene and culture.

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15 hours ago, Saxon said:

The natural human form doesn't have anything objectively cosmetically wrong with it , even if some users here say that it is 'boring'. So attempts to improve it by adding disfigurements or scars strike me as misguided. I suppose people who end up regretting their body modifications can sympathise with that perspective.

Quote

mis·guid·ed

ˌmisˈɡīdəd/

adjective

adjective: misguided

having or showing faulty judgment or reasoning.

You are implying that your personal taste is factually correct. It is not.
It is a difference in taste, and that's all it is, as has been repeated to you several times. And that difference in taste is no better or worse than someone else's.

No one is forcing someone else to get piercings. Even though I do personally like a little bit of extra ornamentation on the face, that in no way implies that I feel like other people should get piercings. I got mine because I wanted them, and that was solely my decision to make.
That is what I like, that is what I wanted, and whether or not you or anyone else agrees with that is not something I give a shit about, because you're not nearly important enough to be in a position where your personal feelings on that situation matter regarding what someone else does with their appearance.

My eyebrow piercing rejected a year after I got it.
Yeah, it left a scar. That scar's still there, 14 years after it happened. Abloo-bloo-bloo. I don't regret getting it. I'm an adult. I'll live.

 

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Just an observation of identity in general that I've seen to be true.

Anyone who is naturally born a seven out of ten or better on the attractiveness scale pushes their identity in the direction that the majority of people find attractive. 

Anyone born a one to four out of ten are unaffected by fashion in any way. Unless of course it happens that they are part of some kind of subculture in which case they wear the uniform of their subculture. They aren't really anti-fashion but they also don't follow it at all either. However, they dress cleanly and groom themselves properly. They won't show up to a social event dressed inappropriately. So they know the rules of identity and apply them to be respectful. These also tend to be people who go through life being valued more for who they are than what they look like. Their identity has more to do with personality than any other group of people. 

The really weird category is the people who are a five to six out of ten. These people know they will never be a ten. They will never get close to ten. They could struggle to be a six or seven if they wanted to. Instead they run in the opposite direction and dive down to a four or a three. They don't wear clean clothes, they don't groom themselves, and they are not anti-fasion but more anti-appropriate. They will show up to social events dressed inappropriately. The more negative attention they get the more they move down the attractiveness scale. 

In other words there is a momentum to identity. Those who start off well keep it moving and send their identity in a direction where the most people will get along with them. Those who start of in the middle tend to send their identity backwards. Those who start off poorly are immune to the whole thing. They almost don't have to participate at all. 

Maybe plain or average people try to slide down the scale to the bottom so they too don't have to participate in the upward identity spiral either? They participate in behaviours that are engineered to eliminate the possibility of having a maximum number of friends. They isolate themselves and make their group smaller and smaller and that group does the exact same thing to the point where the "rules" of their identity almost start to strangle everyone in that group. 

There are of course exceptions but from what I've seen being plain or average is far more damaging to people than being beautiful or unattractive. 

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I really hate how every imposition or insult these days has to fall under the umbrella of "oppression" or "microaggressions" or bigotry.

Your boss can no longer be an ass; he has to be a sexist, privileged ass, and that has to become the basis for a whole bloody federal case against said boss.

But I digress. Self-expression is important. Physical appearance is but one facet of self-expression, but for many people, it's an important and powerful one. So, I'm not so cynical and burned out as to say that everyone just needs to shut up and be happy about having to wear identical grey jumpsuits because "appearance doesn't matter."

However, you can survive not being able to be your unfiltered pure self all the time, and you can discover alternative outlets for self-expression besides and beyond physical dress and appearance. It's not the end of the world if your boss doesn't let you wear your nose ring or Iron Maiden shirt.

I roll my eyes at people who whine and gripe about not getting to be 100% "authentic" or "honest" every minute of every day, and I definitely roll my eyes at naive youngsters who are apparently shocked and horrified by the revelation that many jobs frown on piercings, tattoos, dyed hair, or general "unprofessional dress."

That said, it's fine to feel a little annoyed, disappointed, or dismayed about having to meet bullshit standards or not getting to be authentic or honest, as long as you accept the reality that them's the breaks and them's the rules, whether you hate 'em or love 'em.

And yes, many dress codes do have a number of bullshit policies that are rooted in outdated, small-minded, silly, and/or even counterproductive ideas about what constitutes "professional dress," and why it is important to be dressed "professionally." I certainly resent it when an organization or institution cares more about how people look than what they know or what they do.

Certainly, I think it's silly that someone can't have pink hair or a visible tattoo because of some outdated and stupid stigma from my grandma's day.
 

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Successful beautiful person here.

If you consider how you dress up your flesh prison to be a significant component of your identity then I and every other person of substance in existence probably wants nothing to do with you because you're vain and vapid. It's not that we're all conformist clones who have no identity, it's just that we couch our identities in what we do and what we believe and not how successfully we stand out at a glance.

Hope that helps, thanks.

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1 hour ago, Zaraphayx said:

Successful beautiful person here.

If you consider how you dress up your flesh prison to be a significant component of your identity then I and every other person of substance in existence probably wants nothing to do with you because you're vain and vapid. It's not that we're all conformist clones who have no identity, it's just that we couch our identities in what we do and what we believe and not how successfully we stand out at a glance.

Hope that helps, thanks.

People still need to bathe. 

If you smell like bigfoot's dick nobody cares about your identity. 

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