Music and Mathmatics?

[Vallium]

*Mathematics, I swear there is SOMETHING Im good at

Maybe correlation doesnt prove causation but I've known at least two people who were were successful in high level mathematics (If things like Calc are considered high), and along with that they seem to be pretty amazing at composing music, and me being bad at both it seems to blow my mind.

 

 

thoughts on this observation? Its a small sample size, I know.

 

Edited September 27, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1

[Sutekh_the_Steak]

Yeah it's definitely a thing, my maths teacher said one of the side-course she took at university was Maths With Music. Plus I'm really good at both maths and music (performing and theory at least, I've never really tried to compose) too so that's further evidence I guess?

Music is all about counting with the time signatures, note values/intervals, and key signatures and stuff so it's kinda obvious there must be a link when you think about it.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Sutekh_the_Steak

[evan]

There's actually a lot of interesting correlations; there's a few different videos I want to link on the topic

(the mathematics is a little more subtle in this, but it's more about the math that can justify certain philosophies in music using twelve tone music) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4niz8TfY794

(a bit more clearly mathematic, specifically geometry and translating shapes into music) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB6a4nI0BPA

when you start getting into more extended time signatures and polyrhythm, being able to perform arithmetic quickly is very helpful, and for that matter most people dictate a "times table" of rhythms, in which you divide the same beat by a certain number and that creates the rhythmic grid.

there's also some interesting musical compositions involving the likes; John Cage wrote his Third Construction using square roots, so the piece is actually phrased entirely in...5 I believe. it's been a while since i learned about the analysis of the piece.

 

math is also a little more prevalent in electronic music, when it comes to calculating delays to create certain sound effects, figuring out reverb ratios, and so on

Edited September 27, 2015 by evan

[yell0wf0x]

I'm an engineer so I guess I have to be proficient at math or something. And I guess ye could say it does have a correlation cuz sound engineering relies on math on take into consideration everything to produce good sounding music. 

 

Also, synths rely heavily on sine waves and complex square waves/triangular waves. And mastering and multiplexing has some really deep math and electronics shit behind em. 

[Kaizan]

I'm also (almost) an engineer! I took a course in computer music alongside a course in systems engineering and it was really cool to see how much they lined up from a signal processing perspective. Knowing the math behind the sounds in electronic and computer music isnt necessary to produce good music, but it takes alot of the guess work out and it makes it a lot easier to get the sound that you want to make.

[Zaraphayx]

I'm a mathematician and a composer so yeah there's probably something to it.

[BlackElectric]

There may be some correlation, but being good at math doesn't mean you'll be a good composer (and vice versa).

Even though they have some similarities they are two very different things.

[Maug]

Music is essentially nothing but a sub-derivative of mathematics, dealing explicitly with harmonics and patterns.

Now, other mathematical principles do get applied now and then - Tool does this, the Lateralus album was nothing but metaphysical themes built upon mathematical structures.

Sorry. Mathematical perfection is dull. The musicians I know play by ear instead of by mathematical equation. Not every painting uses the golden ratio, not every song needs to follow a perfect pattern. In this age of auto tune and pitch perfection, people seem to forget that music with imperfections and surprises are more interesting them music made by a robot.

[Maug]

I think you're missing what I'm saying. It's not an easy thing to explain, so trying is not going to happen on my end. Go give the whole Lateralus album a whirl, and think of it as more than some attempt at mathematical perfection, because it is far, far from it.

Your comment sounded like this to me : "you don't understand the point I'm making so I'm not going to explain it to you"

I'm no stranger to performing music and understanding music theory, not that I consider myself a 'musician' because I don't anymore.

I own the album you speak of. I have all Tool's albums (I love progressive rock and metal) The titular song is based on the Fibonacci sequence (golden spiral), to my understanding (which can be wrong) that is the only song on the album based on a mathematical concept. I'm not saying that music and math are not compatible, just as math can be used art, but it's not the 'same thing'. Math is axiomatic, music is not. Music is way more flexible.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Maug

[Dijon]

is this what they call "math rock"?

[Maug]

How do you ascribe a sound to soundless text? That seems almost hopelessly assumptive unless you know the person's voice and typical mindset. I would imagine there's more of a tendency for a person to put their own voice and emotions into the words of the other person, than to accurately and truly portray the voice of the one whose words are being read.

You're still missing what I'm saying. There's no mathematical perfection in the Lateralus album, and I never implied such nor was it ever brought up until YOU mentioned it. There's usage of mathematics, as I mentioned, lots of it, but there was NEVER any attempt at reaching any sort of mathematical perfection. That got left up to the fans, who even went so far as to rearrange track orders to 'make things fit better.'

On top of that, 'perfection' is quite subjective from a human viewpoint. What you might consider mathematical perfection I might consider as absolute cacophony.

"The musicians I know play by ear instead of by mathematical equation"

Playing by ear is nothing more than having an innate unthinking understanding of the mathematical progressions. The math is still there, whether or not you're consciously thinking about it. Unless you're playing Jazz, you're following regulated structure almost 100% of the time. Even then, Jazz is still constrained by the math. After all, the notes are mathematically determined.

All I stated originally is that music is math. You came in with YOUR mindset and automatically assumed that I meant that music needs to be perfect, and your whole perfection tirade post directly after quoting my post demonstrates that. In fact, it almost gets down to being insulting by insinuating I'm inflexible.

See, that's why I didn't bother trying to explain - words often fail to accurately portray deeper thought. Instead, you took it as me being some sort of 'better-than-thou' thing. That's fairly insulting, as well.

 

 

 

Why do you think I'm arguing with you about mathematical perfection? that was not my argument. My argument is music is not math, which you have stated. I'm finished with arguing you with this. Also, there is no reason to be presuming. I'm not an idiot, please be respectful and do not talk to me like I could never understand your ideas. I never stated in any post that I thought you where pompous, its a tad disappointing that you would think that

Edited October 11, 2015 by Maug
added a thought