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Rant - Potentially SJW Friend


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So there's this friend of mine...

Known them for quite some time, ever since I started checking out my friendly local gaming stores.  It's probably been... 8-10 years since they've been an acquaintance?  Anyway, throughout most of the time this person was a dude - comic geek, neck-beardy behavior, fanboy obsessiveness, even shared a few conversations lamenting regressive/extremist feminism.  Seriously, this person wouldn't have been more of a dude unless they were lewd with two foods while shouting 'swood.'

Earlier this year they told me they were transitioning, and changed their name this summer.

Yeh... Kinda caught me off-guard as well.

But, hell, their body, their decision, yes?  Not gonna pass any judgement on the whole transgendered thing, since I've already met a handful, both from within and outside the furry community.  Things have been relatively smooth, but lately I'm noticing certain... warning signs.  I think some of you may know what I'm getting at: using phrases like 'privileged white male' and 'the patriarchy,' with less and less irony, praising all femininity and scoffing at 'macho bullshit,' casual misandry, boycotting/forsaking certain products or franchises because someone higher up did a bad thing, etc.  Things almost came to a head when they got into a discussion/argument with myself and a couple other friends about how there aren't any women in Warhammer 40k.  Except for Howling Banshees, Sister of Battle, some entire Guard regiments, and numerous characters and inquisitors from the stories.  Oh but Sisters would have to be an expensive, special order army - meanwhile this friend is special ordering female dwarf models from third party companies to act as replacements for the predominantly (read:exclusively) male dwarf models, and hasn't said a word of complaint about that.  But I digress; feminism and 40k is something that can easily fill a topic on its own.  Point is, I could easily feel the tension in the room rising while we debated, until we obligatorily distracted ourselves and went off on tangents.

The thing I'm getting at is that I'm starting to see this 'Tumblrina/SJW' rhetoric leaking in, and I'm trying to figure out what to do before this results in some friendship-shattering argument.  It's not like I can just split off with this one person and walk away, since they live where I hang out with most of my other friends.  Outright attacking their viewpoints is probably only going to make this person dig their heels in, and knowing their 'fanboyism' with their like/dislike of certain franchises, I can only assume that mentality will take hold of their politics and we would just end up shouting at each other and going nowhere.

Anyone got anything?

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Your guess is as good as mine, but here's some tentative thoughts:

Your friend is going through an uncertain and challenging time, and they may be trying to figure out who they are, who they're going to be, and who's going to support them.

They may have discovered a supportive community in the Tumblr SJW crowd, or the online feminist scene, or the like, and these people may have been the first ever to validate their identity as a trans person. Don't discount or dismiss the power of that kind of validation and support.

I think it's important to keep in mind that not everyone who uses those terms is automatically a full-blown SJW. Don't get prematurely hostile or huffy with your friend because of what you assume they think or believe. Someone can value social justice or use some of the lingo without being an SJW, so it's unfair and inappropriate to accuse someone of being an SJW for caring about these issues or using some of the language. As a trans person, they definitely have legitimate reasons to feel angry about injustices and attitudes that are all-too-real.

It's also important to remember that people will often test the water without permanently committing to an identity (like being an SJW) or a community (like Tumblr), especially when they're young.

My sense is, your friend may appreciate and benefit from your support and friendship at this time, provided that their behavior towards you and yours doesn't become toxic or abusive. I'd generally avoid getting into serious or contentious debates over social justice, feminism or Tumblr stuff, but you can gently and non-defensively offer counter-thoughts or alternative opinions that can potentially help to break open the echo chamber, so to speak (assuming your friend is in an echo chamber, of course).

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Don't feed that kind of conversation. Make it perfectly clear if you have to that you support their right to have their own opinions, but you are in no way shape or form obligated to share or support those views. Your sanity is your priority, let them decide if they value your friendship enough to agree to disagree. Trust me on this, spending too long walking on eggshells for other people will not do you any favours in the long term, because I can almost guarantee that when the first disagreement happens between you, everything you've held onto will surface.

 

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this is a hard topic to comment on because "sjw" isn't like, a real group of people who exist it's just sort of a super nebulous demographic that sometimes encapsulates every trans person, sometimes every person with dyed hair, but more often than not translates to "ppl I disagree with on the internet"

so you'll have to forgive me for relying entirely on the examples you provided in your OP

It's important to remember in your friendship with her that she's going to have a lot of different experiences than you do, by virtue of not just being a woman but by being trans as well. She is going to have for instance a different relationship with masculinity, a cis man might be completely comfortable with the concept, but a trans woman is someone who has had masculinity forced upon them, and it sounds like she's only now just sort of finding her own place to like, not be what she's been pressured to be right. That's where your "casual misandry" and "Praise for the feminine" comes from, you're talking to someone who has had masculinity forced on them for however many years of their life and now they're fighting back against it

"privilege" and "patriarchy" are concepts that are easy to ignore when you benefit from them. They're things that she's going to be more aware of because they're obstacles in her life, she's going to be suffering from both misogyny and transphobia her whole life (and their intersection, transmisogyny). I think on some level it's a sign of her trust in you that she's complaining about these oppressive systems with you. Putting myself in her position from what you've been saying, you're "one of the nice guys" that fedorables on OK cupid aspire to be. She's going to complain about systems that work to hold her down and she's going to make blanket statements about cis ppl and men because of it, but I think you can be safe in the assumption that she's not talking about specifically you, or that she might even think you're a specific exception

I mean shrug that last part's a reach but what I'm trying to say is... a woman talking and thinking critically about subjects like privilege and patriarchy isn't something for you to be afraid of

as for the anxiety of a political argument that ruins your friendship... it's important to sort of recognize the seriousness of a lot of social justice topics. There's sort of an idea going around that people are "sjws" because they want to be morally superior to everyone else, or because they were indoctrinated by the cuck army or w/e, but most all of the people I've known who have been called "sjws" (including myself) hold their political opinions out of necessity and circumstance. She's going to talk to you about how it sucks to be a woman under patriarchy, and she's going to talk to you about how much it sucks to be trans in a cisnormative society, how much it sucks to deal with sexism and transphobia and their intersection which can potentially be deadly even for her right

so it's important just that you recognize she's going to be coming from a different perspective than yours and she's going to be talking about things that you might not be aware at all are Things, problems that you didn't even know were problems because you've never had the necessity to think about them. And that's okay! She's not going to murder you for anything incorrect you do, like calling her A Transgendered (;3). You're going to get in debates but as long as you treat her with respect and recognize that she's going to be more exposed to Certain Issues than you then you should be just fine

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You also do have to remember somebody can't change themselves over night, it's small steps.

They realized they are a woman inside but haven't been through the process of changing who they are - so as annoying as they were before, they will be now in different ways until they change eventually.

Like did stop being sometimes brutish and petulant instantly upon starting my transition?

No, it's a transition and it takes time.

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I associate with people who have all sorts of political opinions, including people who hold the archetypal social justice warrior points of view.
It doesn't stop me being friends with them, and if we get into discussion I reason with them just as I would with anybody else.

I think people who perceive themselves as belonging to disadvantaged groups have to be careful not to develop a persecution complex and then blame everything that goes wrong in their life on ineffable systems of oppression. For example I know one trans person who deliberately avoided applying to certain colleges because they heard a rumour that those colleges have a right-wing disposition. They were making their own worries about disadvantage come true.

People who begin viewing themselves as victims first and people second, as part of a society in which the majority of people are problematic sinners, need to be reminded that the majority of people are good and helpful and reasonable, and not all out to get them.

 

 

 

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I agree to an extent with what amps is saying, she has definitely been pressured her entire life by male standards so she's quite satisfied to the ideals given by feminism, although I would disagree with her if these experiences have pushed her into bitter territory

My suggestion is you politely tell her point blank that her blanket statements and political standing gets annoying to hear after awhile, that you dislike hearing of it, and that you value her friendship/peership and do not want to cause negative arguments so it would be in her best interest to keep political discussions off the table

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Better a social justice warrior, than a social injustice warrior: Putin, Ted Cruz, Trump, the far right groups popping up across Europe, the far-right radicalism roiling the middle east, and beyond---I'd be more worried about a person who began tilting to a more right-wing, less inclusive, reactionary point of view that seeks to limit the basic rights of others, of which the world offers many examples.

Also, I think, too often, the term, 'SJW' is just thrown out, with no real context; one doesn't see the opposite term tossed around at all, that I've seen, despite evidence to the contrary, which is to say, there are in fact people working against social justice, for whatever reasons, from religion to greed to fear.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Fossa-Boy said:

Better a social justice warrior, than a social injustice warrior: Putin, Ted Cruz, Trump, the far right groups popping up across Europe, the far-right radicalism roiling the middle east, and beyond---I'd be more worried about a person who began tilting to a more right-wing, less inclusive, reactionary point of view that seeks to limit the basic rights of others, of which the world offers many examples.

Also, I think, too often, the term, 'SJW' is just thrown out, with no real context; one doesn't see the opposite term tossed around at all, that I've seen, despite evidence to the contrary, which is to say, there are in fact people working against social justice, for whatever reasons, from religion to greed to fear.

 

 

I agree with some parts of this and not others. I agree that the far-right groups and populists are worse and it's irritating that a lot don't seem to mind when a presidential candidate says 'Oh yeah, first amendment rights...who really needs those?'.

I disagree that 'SJW' has no context; social justice warriors often all share a very similar suite of opinions and you can easily recognise them by the common language they share in their attempts to sound intellectual, because the SJW movement started in Universities and draws from a pool of feminist 'research'.

Problematic, homosocial, hegemony, patriarchy, cisnormative, non-binary, decolonize, micro-aggresion and so on.

 

Here's an infamous paper, in which the author lays out her belief that providing disabled people with carbon fibre prostheses, so that they can enjoy sport, predisposes them to be hateful towards women:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273793754_CARBON_FIBRE_MASCULINITY

 

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52 minutes ago, Saxon said:

You definitely don't have to. :c

It usually works that way. As my friends went down the BLM/feminist/cultural appropriation/SJW/Hillary Clinton route, we kind of stopped talking entirely.

every once in a while I'll get a like from them on tumblr but that's the extent

im surprised they still even follow me given the shit I post lmao

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24 minutes ago, Gamedog said:

It usually works that way. As my friends went down the BLM/feminist/cultural appropriation/SJW/Hillary Clinton route, we kind of stopped talking entirely.

every once in a while I'll get a like from them on tumblr but that's the extent

im surprised they still even follow me given the shit I post lmao

political views don't need to dictate a friendship. it all depends on how those involved view it; how important those views are to them, and how they react to those who disagree.

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21 minutes ago, Falaffel said:

political views don't need to dictate a friendship. it all depend on how those involved view it; how important those views are to them, and how they react to those who disagree.

I've found that to be very true...some of my closest furry friends have some pretty starkly opposite views, and it's good, at some point, to agree to disagree, and move beyond such matters. And this is also true of friends and co-workers outside of the furry realm.

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I'd like to point out a friendly reminder that an SJW in tumblr tier/interweb definition standards is in no way the same thing as an activist for equality

A SJW is someone who pushes for social change so far to the degree that instead of equal factors they tend to push to the other end of extremes, putting minorities on pedestals while bringing down and devaluing other parties, namely things like the article Saxon posted and things like the ye old iconic phrases "check your priveledge, cis scum", "die cis scum" etc.

 

If someone wants social change thats fine but if they want to devalue/bring down/defame those who did nothing wrong (throwing innocent people into a guilty "whole" based on traits they have they cannot control), then theyre going ass backwards into it

 

If that friend is the kind of person thats really upset and also passionate about people harmed by culture thats one thing, if they bitterly bring everyone else down because of it and throw out a whole bunch of obnoxious terminology its another

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7 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

A SJW is someone who pushes for social change so far to the degree that instead of equal factors they tend to push to the other end of extremes, putting minorities on pedestals while bringing down and devaluing other parties, namely things like the article Saxon posted and things like the ye old iconic phrases "check your priveledge, cis scum", "die cis scum" etc.

d75.jpg

 

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I wonder if they feel like they need to become like that in order to find acceptance during their transition. They don't, obviously, but maybe an SJW planted the seeds in their mind. I'd try to remain friends, and show that the SJW stuff isn't necessary.

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One of the best ways to avoid a friendship-shattering argument about any topic is to earnestly research and study your friend's opposing opinion, your own opinion, and the opinions of others.

Find out the similarities and differences between Hobbesian, Lockean, Proudhonian, Rousseauian, Humean and any other theories of social contract you can find. Delve into the various ideas of justice, the state, and historical analysis from Kant, to Plato, to Hegel, to Marx, and anyone in between or without. Find out what moral relativism, moral nihilism, and moral skepticism really are. Look into logical positivism and how that applies to theories of social justice. Search for influential individuals who would have been called SJWs - and nearly were, but were called much worse - such as Norman Thomas, Martin Luther King, Jr., Harvey Milk, and Angelina Grimké. Take the analyses and theories I talked about earlier - among others - and compare them to the lives of these activists. Take those same theories and analyses and bring them with you when you look up the socioeconomic conditions of individuals during the time the works were created and the socioeconomic conditions of individuals living now.

Did Hobbes and Locke need to account for changes that increasing industrialization would bring to the role and function of government? Did Proudhon and Marx underestimate the ability of dominant socioeconomic structures to maintain themselves? Are Plato and Humes of any significance in the modern world? Did the predictions about social change made by Marx and Hegel come true? Does Kant's name sound slightly dirty when some people pronounce it? Which activists failed to see their changes through? Which activists succeeded in bringing about change? How did they go about it? What does this say about earlier ideas?

What about modern thinkers that I've failed to mention? What about modern activists? What about you and your friend?

And that's just a grain of salt in the shaker. I've only mentioned philosophy and activism, but biology, psychology, economics, sociology, linguistics, and more fields than I care to count here are involved in social justice.

Being an educated friend - or anything, really - takes a lot of work, which is why most of us - probably including your friend - are okay with just having a big and useless argument that results in moving apart.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ C'est la vie

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I doubt Martin Luther King would have argued in favour of segregated spaces for different races in Universities. That's like..the exact opposite of what his dream speech was about.

Goldsmiths and University College London are both real English Universities. I was told I should apply to Goldsmiths, by my teachers.

Quoting from UCLU: "We at UCLU stand in solidarity with Bahar Mustafa and the network and are disappointed in the decision to now allow ‘white allies’ to attend such events."

They're genuinely angry that they can't choose what races of people are allowed to attend certain University events. :\

Read the whole trainwreck here:

http://uclu.org/articles/safe-and-self-defining-spaces-solidarity-with-goldsmith-su-bme-network

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4 hours ago, Falaffel said:

political views don't need to dictate a friendship. it all depends on how those involved view it; how important those views are to them, and how they react to those who disagree.

That's why we're all still on friendly terms. I never let it dictate my friendship with them, it's just one of those friendships where you kind of grow apart, you know?

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sometimes just going with it solves more things than resisting. usually then you find the lines they actually mean and the ones they can live with, especially when they know you're coming from a place of good will, rather than the potential idea of an aggressor that's been developed from having these views

 

often we forget that if someone believes they are being acted towards aggressively, telling them they are aggressively wrong may not do very much

 

if it still doesn't work out, maybe that's okay. just gotta be willing to see where things go, though.

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I have friends and acquaintances across the political spectrum--including some people who might be considered low-key Status Quo Warriors/anti-SJWs, and people who might be considered low-key SJWs.

What ultimately makes or breaks the deal for me is whether the other person is fundamentally ethical, rational, honest about their own motives and values, and capable of civil discussion without resorting to automatic attacks or abuse.

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as annoying as it can be sometimes, I honestly feel that SJW is on the lower end of the "Worst Things Your Friends Could Become" spectrum. mostly because the term itself is often so vaguely defined. but I digress

if she's gonna be one of those who constantly goes on about privilege and misogyny, it may be better to just talk to her or ask her what's up.

but being highly critical of things like a lack of female dwarves or whatever is just that, being critical. you can either have a discussion about it or be like "meh" and move on

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At the end of the day, is anything that she's doing worth starting a fight over though? Aside from kneejerk "OHNOES IT'S THE TUMBLR!" shit?
Does her ranting about female exclusion in boardgames have any impact on anything of relevance?
And why does it?

These are the things you need to figure out, and sort where your priorities lie.

I'm not gonna tell you just to be friends with her anyway, because that's not my decision to make. That's not anyone else's decision to make. That's yours.
And if it causes issues in your social circle, those consequences are also yours.
Understand that.

Ask yourself why this "SJW stuff" bothers you, to begin with.


Also, on the matter of her age and history, those mean nothing.
I didn't start exploring my gender identity until really late in life because I just wasn't comfortable enough to except in small doses.
These things generally don't just "come out of nowhere." They're just usually closeted for personal reasons.

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2 hours ago, MalletFace said:

One of the best ways to avoid a friendship-shattering argument about any topic is to earnestly research and study your friend's opposing opinion, your own opinion, and the opinions of others.

Find out the similarities and differences between Hobbesian, Lockean, Proudhonian, Rousseauian, Humean and any other theories of social contract you can find. Delve into the various ideas of justice, the state, and historical analysis from Kant, to Plato, to Hegel, to Marx, and anyone in between or without. Find out what moral relativism, moral nihilism, and moral skepticism really are. Look into logical positivism and how that applies to theories of social justice. Search for influential individuals who would have been called SJWs - and nearly were, but were called much worse - such as Norman Thomas, Martin Luther King, Jr., Harvey Milk, and Angelina Grimké. Take the analyses and theories I talked about earlier - among others - and compare them to the lives of these activists. Take those same theories and analyses and bring them with you when you look up the socioeconomic conditions of individuals during the time the works were created and the socioeconomic conditions of individuals living now.

Did Hobbes and Locke need to account for changes that increasing industrialization would bring to the role and function of government? Did Proudhon and Marx underestimate the ability of dominant socioeconomic structures to maintain themselves? Are Plato and Humes of any significance in the modern world? Did the predictions about social change made by Marx and Hegel come true? Does Kant's name sound slightly dirty when some people pronounce it? Which activists failed to see their changes through? Which activists succeeded in bringing about change? How did they go about it? What does this say about earlier ideas?

What about modern thinkers that I've failed to mention? What about modern activists? What about you and your friend?

And that's just a grain of salt in the shaker. I've only mentioned philosophy and activism, but biology, psychology, economics, sociology, linguistics, and more fields than I care to count here are involved in social justice.

Being an educated friend - or anything, really - takes a lot of work, which is why most of us - probably including your friend - are okay with just having a big and useless argument that results in moving apart.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ C'est la vie

Don't stick your dick in crazy is a thing for a reason. 

 

15 minutes ago, Vae said:

At the end of the day, is anything that she's doing worth starting a fight over though? Aside from kneejerk "OHNOES IT'S THE TUMBLR!" shit?
Does her ranting about female exclusion in boardgames have any impact on anything of relevance?
And why does it?

These are the things you need to figure out, and sort where your priorities lie.

I'm not gonna tell you just to be friends with her anyway, because that's not my decision to make. That's not anyone else's decision to make. That's yours.
And if it causes issues in your social circle, those consequences are also yours.
Understand that.

Ask yourself why this "SJW stuff" bothers you, to begin with.


Also, on the matter of her age and history, those mean nothing.
I didn't start exploring my gender identity until really late in life because I just wasn't comfortable enough to except in small doses.
These things generally don't just "come out of nowhere." They're just usually closeted for personal reasons.

 

From experience, there's a good idea and bad idea scenario for the people mentioned in OP.

 

 

Good Idea:

Occasionally talking about social issues that are on your mind. 

 

Bad idea:

Make every topic of discussion about social issues.

 

 

I wanna say going on and on and on about the same topic every day isn't really healthy communication tbh. 

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13 minutes ago, Toshabi said:

Don't stick your dick in crazy is a thing for a reason. 

Enlightenment minds like Hume, Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Hegel, and Kant aren't considered out there, though.

They're more like standard fare. I haven't heard any saying about sticking one's dick in standard fare.

Is there one? I want there to be one.

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Just now, MalletFace said:

Enlightenment minds like Hume, Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Hegel, and Kant aren't considered out there, though.

They're more like standard fare. I haven't heard any saying about sticking one's dick in standard fare.

Is there one? I want there to be one.

Penis. 

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2 hours ago, MalletFace said:

One of the best ways to avoid a friendship-shattering argument about any topic is to earnestly research and study your friend's opposing opinion, your own opinion, and the opinions of others.

Find out the similarities and differences between Hobbesian, Lockean, Proudhonian, Rousseauian, Humean and any other theories of social contract you can find. Delve into the various ideas of justice, the state, and historical analysis from Kant, to Plato, to Hegel, to Marx, and anyone in between or without. Find out what moral relativism, moral nihilism, and moral skepticism really are. Look into logical positivism and how that applies to theories of social justice. Search for influential individuals who would have been called SJWs - and nearly were, but were called much worse - such as Norman Thomas, Martin Luther King, Jr., Harvey Milk, and Angelina Grimké. Take the analyses and theories I talked about earlier - among others - and compare them to the lives of these activists. Take those same theories and analyses and bring them with you when you look up the socioeconomic conditions of individuals during the time the works were created and the socioeconomic conditions of individuals living now.

Did Hobbes and Locke need to account for changes that increasing industrialization would bring to the role and function of government? Did Proudhon and Marx underestimate the ability of dominant socioeconomic structures to maintain themselves? Are Plato and Humes of any significance in the modern world? Did the predictions about social change made by Marx and Hegel come true? Does Kant's name sound slightly dirty when some people pronounce it? Which activists failed to see their changes through? Which activists succeeded in bringing about change? How did they go about it? What does this say about earlier ideas?

What about modern thinkers that I've failed to mention? What about modern activists? What about you and your friend?

And that's just a grain of salt in the shaker. I've only mentioned philosophy and activism, but biology, psychology, economics, sociology, linguistics, and more fields than I care to count here are involved in social justice.

Being an educated friend - or anything, really - takes a lot of work, which is why most of us - probably including your friend - are okay with just having a big and useless argument that results in moving apart.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ C'est la vie

I just want to say that I read this in enough detail to find the Easter egg. <3

Enlightenment minds like Hume, Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Hegel, and Kant aren't considered out there, though.

They're more like standard fare. I haven't heard any saying about sticking one's dick in standard fare.

Is there one? I want there to be one.

 

I cited Immanuel Kant in one of my examined pieces for University, because he was one of the first people to come up with the nebula theory of planetary and star formation.

...unfortunately I think he also believed that the moons of Saturn were inhabited by monkeys with greater intelligence than Isaac Newton...fella was off his friggin' nut.

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9 minutes ago, Saxon said:

...unfortunately I think he also believed that the moons of Saturn were inhabited by monkeys with greater intelligence than Isaac Newton...fella was off his friggin' nut.

It was more like the idea that planets closer to the Sun might have less intelligent beings, but the twist is that he meant Africans and Greenlanders when he said monkeys. He only believed the monkeys part.

All Enlightenment thinkers were more than a little off when it came to race; though, they aren't that far from where most of the people I know are. The most sad thing about the Wikipedia article for scientific racism is that a huge chunk of the people discussed in it were Enlightenment thinkers that people constantly quote and discuss.

Capture.PNG

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Your situation sounds similar to an experience I've had with one of my friends.

I have a friend who I've known since the 4th grade. We used to hang out at each other's houses all the time throughout the years and play video games together. Sometimes, we'd go to the movies or just sit and talk. Other times, we might watch anime together. Basically anything that close friends might do. Sometime during highschool he started going to websites like "The Mary Sue" and when GamerGate started up he complained how they were hurting the industry. Later one he started watching Anita Sarkeesian videos.  Sometime about 2 years ago he announced that he was trans, and so she's been taking the time to transition like that. Like you, while strange and seemingly out of the blue, I shrugged it off. It admittedly makes it hard for me to hang out with her, just because its kinda strange and makes me a little uncomfortable. I know I shouldn't feel that way, so I ignore that. We still talk and hang out on occasion and I've even gone to the movies with her. It was fun. Still, most of the things she talks about nowadays are all about trans issues and feminism and such. A lot of her personality seems to be missing in favor of activism. No more talk about airing anime or new video games or anything like that. Its kinda disappointing. Still, on the rare occasion we do talk, everything is still pleasant. I have her on Facebook though, and she seems to be increasing in extremism though. Like, she liked someone's post about how white people shouldn't listen to rap music and unironically sharing comic strips from Assigned Male. While still telling me that I should reading and interacting in discussions on The Mary Sue. I just kind of shrug this off and say I'll look into it, but I really don't want to. Added to this, she's now in college going for a Gender Studies degree. :/ 

I find it hard to relate to her anymore, and occasionally I get mad at something she posts online and I have to just hold my tongue because I don't want to ruin our friendship over differing beliefs. To help with this, I unfollowed her on facebook (but still have her as a friend) so that way we can continue to talk and interact whenever and I don't have to get frustrated all the time or be bothered by differing beliefs. If we do talk, I just try to change the subject if something gets brought up that could start and argument.

I don't believe that friends need to agree with each other all the time or even most of the time in order to be friends. You just need to enjoy each other's company. Don't let opposing views get in the way, and always remember that its okay and sometimes the better decision to just drop and argument if it seems like its heading in a bad direction. At the end of the day, your friend is likely still herself. You aren't talking to a totally different person, even if it may seem like it. Just stick to enjoying each other's common interests and such.

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4 hours ago, Saxon said:

I doubt Martin Luther King would have argued in favour of segregated spaces for different races in Universities. That's like..the exact opposite of what his dream speech was about.

King was the president of a African American-only conference for discussing and dismantling the oppression faced by African Americans. Whites were not supposed to take part in most meetings if any at all, especially local leadership meetings. I believe that is actually still the case with the SCLC because they don't think their job is done.

MLK would routinely be called an SJW as a pejorative under most modern definitions, and he advocated for exactly that kind of space. I believe you're misunderstanding the intent of his message in that speech.

He is abhorring the notion of the existing systemic dehumanization of African Americans through things like - but not limited to - segregation, but he never once condemns the idea of oppressed peoples meeting in protected spaces. In fact, the end of his speech is structured after spirituals created and repeated with the intent that whites were not to participate. He actually ends his speech with the words of one such spiritual.

Its a shame MLK didn't live to see the term actually used, or he would likely have shut down any comparison of safe spaces to segregation when 'safe spaces' were used to dismantle segregation itself.

22 hours ago, AyGee said:

It's not like I can just split off with this one person and walk away, since they live where I hang out with most of my other friends.

The only solution is to stop hanging out with them all.

Stop hanging out with anybody.

Hang out on the forums.

But that situation does seriously mean you either need to live and learn with your differences, or you need to outright tell them how you feel about the situation.

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28 minutes ago, MalletFace said:

King was the president of a African American-only conference for discussing and dismantling the oppression faced by African Americans. Whites were not supposed to take part in most meetings if any at all, especially local leadership meetings. I believe that is actually still the case with the SCLC because they don't think their job is done.

MLK would routinely be called an SJW as a pejorative under most modern definitions, and he advocated for exactly that kind of space. I believe you're misunderstanding the intent of his message in that speech.

He is abhorring the notion of the existing systemic dehumanization of African Americans through things like - but not limited to - segregation, but he never once condemns the idea of oppressed peoples meeting in protected spaces. In fact, the end of his speech is structured after spirituals created and repeated with the intent that whites were not to participate. He actually ends his speech with the words of one such spiritual.

Its a shame MLK didn't live to see the term actually used, or he would likely have shut down any comparison of safe spaces to segregation when 'safe spaces' were used to dismantle segregation itself.

The only solution is to stop hanging out with them all.

Stop hanging out with anybody.

Hang out on the forums.

But that situation does seriously mean you either need to live and learn with your differences, or you need to outright tell them how you feel about the situation.

Then I guess I can't agree with him, if he envisioned a future with 'race x only' spaces.

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16 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Then I guess I can't agree with him, if he envisioned a future with 'race x only' spaces.

In an inherently white supremacist society there needs to be spaces where someone can escape whiteness. This is especially true for organizations which themselves are meant to radically oppose white supremacy, white people are confronted with a conflict of interest. That's why THIS was such a big thing. White supremacy is not challenged by placing white people in positions of power within the black community

"safe spaces" are not "segregation" outside its base dictionary definition. An "office of multicultural affairs" on a university campus is no where near comparable to living under jim crow

Does it really bother you this much that people who have special needs might have areas designed wholly around accommodating those needs

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7 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Then I guess I can't agree with him, if he envisioned a future with 'race x only' spaces.

The idea is that oppressed peoples meet in order that "...one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal'... And this will be the day - this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning: My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. / Land where my fathers died, land of the Pilgrim's pride, / From every mountainside, let freedom ring!"

The idea is not that oppressed peoples meet in order that "...our children are stripped of their self-hood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating: "For Whites Only."

It is carried out with the understanding that "...we will not be satisfied until 'justice rolls down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream,'" and that "[Negroes] must stand up amid a system that still oppresses us and develop an unassailable and majestic sense of values. We must no longer be ashamed of being black."

It is a means to an end, not an end itself.

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1 minute ago, MalletFace said:

It is a means to an end, not an end itself.

Exactly. "safe spaces" of every kind exist only as a means of coping with societal oppression, and would no longer be needed if those oppressions were dismantled

Without white supremacy we wouldn't need a campus to have an "office of multicultural affairs", without sexism and transphobia (and the endemic rape which follows) we wouldn't need a campus to have a "center for women and trans people" or women's shelters

there are resources that ppl sorely need whose necessity is only brought about by systematic oppression. Trying to deny accommodations for those needs is not only hella malicious, but it also does nothing to challenge the status quo or dismantle those oppressions

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Next time you see your friend, try to shift the conversation away from SJW topics. Maybe talk about fun things, like video games and rock music. Maybe talk about automobiles, or about sports. There has to be some shared interest that isn't "MUH PATRIARCHY". Making pleasant conversation is key to a healthy friendship.

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8 minutes ago, LazerMaster5 said:

Next time you see your friend, try to shift the conversation away from SJW topics. Maybe talk about fun things, like video games and rock music. Maybe talk about automobiles, or about sports. There has to be some shared interest that isn't "MUH PATRIARCHY". Making pleasant conversation is key to a healthy friendship.

The problem is that if someone goes 'full SJW', using the derogatory definition of the term, none of those topics are safe. My first boyfriend and I had a horrible falling out partly because they would use literally every topic to segue into something SJW-related, like it was some kind of weird religion.

it was terrifying

I have no idea how to help you Aygee, I hope it works out and you still remain friends with them :<

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Everyone appreciates having a sanctuary where they can let down their guard and be themselves. Getting to hang out with people who understand and share your life situation can be especially refreshing and heartening for minorities and marginalized people who are used to having to conform to the demands of the world, while often receiving very little accommodation in return.

But, you also need to know how to cope with the larger world, and I believe people benefit from at least being able to interact with diverse people and navigate situations that aren't catered to them. If you stay inside your comfy bubble, you can become complacent, entitled, and excessively touchy about anyone or anything that might disturb your "safe space."

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On the subject of w40K, there's always checking places like thingiverse, shapeways, and myminifactory for some female figures if she has access to a 3D printer. Printing a figurine at places that offer 3D printing services can be affordable. 

On the subject of SJWs- I feel like it has become a dismissive/pejorative word for "liberal" like views to the point it's basically becoming somewhat meaningless and disrespectful. You don't have to support their views and you can always agree to disagree without becoming uber-defensive. 

 

 

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This is one of those situations where you just have to wait and see what happens. Could be that your friend, now going through her transition, is trying to prepare for potential waves of misogyny and transphobia that she's been warned about by people on tumblr and the like. It's also possible that that as time passes and her life adjusts to all of the changes that her SJW tendencies will burn out a little. She'll value your friendship, have discussions with you that involve listening to your side of things and to a point agreeing to disagree if a compromise can't be reached.

Or she could go the opposite and start obsessing over social injustice to the point where she becomes a toxic black hole of negative energy, draining the life out of you, making you feel guilty for just existing. This is what happened to me when one of my friends got sucked into the whole keyboard warrior trend. She may take what was once an equal friendship and stagger it into her being a victim and you being privileged. She may remind you every day that she is lower on the social ladder than you and even if it's true her resentment and animosity will eventually just overwhelm you until you be come completely numb and stop caring about her pain all together. This will be because her pain is always going to overshadow yours. If you dare to be unhappy she will one up you every time by reminding you that you'll never have it as bad as she does. She will gaslight you, she will verbally attack you for ignoring her because you've gotten tired of the same cycle of walking on eggshells and taking her hostility without returning it and then when you FINALLY leave her she'll not even wonder why, she'll just assume you're a privileged asshole and you can't handle the truth. Because by then it won't occur to you that you CAN be hurt by the way she treats you. For her friendship is no longer a two way street because your social status now determines the worth of anything you say or do and to her your opinions are now worthless. You don't have a voice that matters to her anymore, in a paradoxical turn of events you are now more valuable than her on a social level but infinitely less valuable on a personal one. 

On of the problems with being friends with a tumblrina sjw type is that they forget life exists on an individual level, it is all about categories, labels and class. This is where they start being really toxic. They actually forget that you're a person and will use your race/class/gender/sexuality to completely dismiss your feelings while expecting you to bend to every little complaint. Molehills become mountains because now it's her vs society and if someone cuts in line or does something generically assholish it's a personal attack instead of just a random incident of douchiness. 

The things that makes it so hard to take a lot of these young, dumb, tumblr sjw types seriously is their lack of actual life experience, their oversimplification of complex issues and this ongoing vibe that the world is made of victims and predators and they get a perverse sense of self-righteousness out of their victimhood. 

Your friend is going through a very harrowing stage in her life, be supportive and understanding because she DOES need that but do not let her use her transition as an excuse to ignore, belittle or otherwise treat you as anything less than her friend. Because no matter how hard her life is (and there is no denying it is hard) you don't just stop mattering as a person. Don't worry to much about changing opinions or points of view, watch for how she treats you as her friend and then decide whether your relationship can be salvaged. As long as you two still care about each other you can have your disagreements.

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wowie thats a lot of words tfl;dfr

if you like a person well enough you can be friends without agreeing on everything
base your relationship on mutual enjoyability rather than politics and opinions
also do your best to not engage them on sensitive topics, for both of your sanities sake
there's better things to care about, don't be a worrier
and don't feed the worry

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10 hours ago, Another Ampers& said:

In an inherently white supremacist society there needs to be spaces where someone can escape whiteness. This is especially true for organizations which themselves are meant to radically oppose white supremacy, white people are confronted with a conflict of interest. That's why THIS was such a big thing. White supremacy is not challenged by placing white people in positions of power within the black community

"safe spaces" are not "segregation" outside its base dictionary definition. An "office of multicultural affairs" on a university campus is no where near comparable to living under jim crow

Does it really bother you this much that people who have special needs might have areas designed wholly around accommodating those needs

Back in the mid twentieth century, you would have had a point that the USA was a white-supremacist society.

However 21st century England is not a white supremacist society, and yet there are University students living in England insisting they should have the right to exclude white people from University events, because they feel they need a safe space to escape their 'whiteness'.

Honestly, the idea of typing 'blackness' or 'whiteness' itself feels weird. As if black people's personalities are defined by being black or white people's personalities are defined by being white...it's friggin' weird.

 

10 hours ago, MalletFace said:

The idea is that oppressed peoples meet in order that "...one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal'... And this will be the day - this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning: My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. / Land where my fathers died, land of the Pilgrim's pride, / From every mountainside, let freedom ring!"

The idea is not that oppressed peoples meet in order that "...our children are stripped of their self-hood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating: "For Whites Only."

It is carried out with the understanding that "...we will not be satisfied until 'justice rolls down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream,'" and that "[Negroes] must stand up amid a system that still oppresses us and develop an unassailable and majestic sense of values. We must no longer be ashamed of being black."

It is a means to an end, not an end itself.

 

So would you agree that University endorsed racially segregated places have no place in 2016, especially in European countries which never had segregation in the first place
Oh...actually, my mistake. There was legally mandated racial segregation in England...between the Anglo-Saxons and the Celtic-Britons...before the establishment of the Aztec Empire.
The first time anybody living has seen 'race x not allowed' stickers in England, being sponsored by public bodies that should be accountable to government, is in Universities.

I think that some very privileged university students like to pretend they are disadvantaged so that they can enjoy feeling like they are part of a movement.

For example, take Bahar Mustafa, the Goldsmiths University officer who famously banned white people or men from attending her talks. She lives in a £450,000 home, far beyond what many people in England could ever dream of...and has the gall to describe herself, the girl who lives in a mansion, as 'working class'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahar_Mustafa_race_row_incident

Exactly. "safe spaces" of every kind exist only as a means of coping with societal oppression, and would no longer be needed if those oppressions were dismantled

Without white supremacy we wouldn't need a campus to have an "office of multicultural affairs", without sexism and transphobia (and the endemic rape which follows) we wouldn't need a campus to have a "center for women and trans people" or women's shelters

there are resources that ppl sorely need whose necessity is only brought about by systematic oppression. Trying to deny accommodations for those needs is not only hella malicious, but it also does nothing to challenge the status quo or dismantle those oppressions

Ehhh...You also think there is a systematic program of eugenics operated by the US government against the deaf, so I don't think you have a very stringent standard of evidence to prove the existence of any system, do you? Do you even have a clear idea of what the word system means?

Systems are well organised schemes which operate in accordance with a set of rules; a game of chess is 'systematic', for example.

Given that Universities in the USA have lower entry requirements for ethnic minorities, rather than ignoring somebody's race when considering their application, it's rather impossible to claim they're being systematically disadvantaged and oppressed by American Universities, because the system is transparently designed to offer them a systemic advantage in their application: that is one of its governing rules.

Of course, the repercussions of this systemic differential treatment of race may not be positive overall even for the people they specifically try to benefit; I imagine that some people who benefit may feel like they have to doubt whether they succeeded on their own merit, or because they were admitted in order to improve a University's racial diversity public image.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Vae said:

At the end of the day, is anything that she's doing worth starting a fight over though? Aside from kneejerk "OHNOES IT'S THE TUMBLR!" shit?
Does her ranting about female exclusion in boardgames have any impact on anything of relevance?
And why does it?

These are the things you need to figure out, and sort where your priorities lie.

I'm not gonna tell you just to be friends with her anyway, because that's not my decision to make. That's not anyone else's decision to make. That's yours.
And if it causes issues in your social circle, those consequences are also yours.
Understand that.

Ask yourself why this "SJW stuff" bothers you, to begin with.


Also, on the matter of her age and history, those mean nothing.
I didn't start exploring my gender identity until really late in life because I just wasn't comfortable enough to except in small doses.
These things generally don't just "come out of nowhere." They're just usually closeted for personal reasons.

From reading the OP, it sounds like it was the female friend who was getting heated and potentially starting a fight, not the OP himself.

 

Also, girls are fags.

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