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FlynnCoyote
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38 minutes ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

Cowardice?

No.

Offing oneself is not an act of cowardice. It's extremely hard to do on purpose. Go on, go ahead. Grab a knife and cut yourself. Go on a roof and teeter on the edge. Hesitant? Didn't really go deep? That's your self preservation instinct holding you back.

One of the pillars upon which human behaviour is built, is self preservation instinct. Overcoming that in a deliberate attempt is not easy, and not an act a coward would do. Do you think he wanted to leave his kids and wife behind? Pretty sure that's a no for that, social obligations and love are strong ties. His life must have felt EXTREMELY shitty to even consider leaving them behind.

You can counterargument that it's selfish. But no, it's not really that either. When a person has given up all hope and goes for the last action of their life, do you think they've just suddenly got the idea for suicide? I guara-fucking-tee you that it's not the first time. They've done the selfless act of hanging on still, some for years, some less than that. Nobody has the capacity to do or be what everyone else wants forever.

Another counterargument you could say is that he was well on his way in life, but here's a newsflash, suicide occurs from depression. Depression is an illness, comparable to any physical trauma. Just the same as having a happy life won't bring a lost limb back, neither does a life look good for a person with depression regardless of facts.

I get a little heated when someone says suicide is an act of cowardice. It's more cowardly to call people as cowards when you have no fucking idea what the preceding life is for that person. You have no right.

I understand your passion, but if he didn't want to leave his family so much, why do it? Is it supposed to make things better now that he's gone? Did he make plans to support them? 

If he was depressed why didn't he try to find help? Why didn't anyone reach out? 

I'm may ignorant for questioning what makes a person go so low, but not cowardly.

There is ALWAYS hope, but you have to god damn fight for it.

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Just now, Enigma said:

I understand your passion, but if he didn't want to leave his family so much, why do it? Is it supposed to make things better now that he's gone? Did he make plans to support them? 

If he was depressed why didn't he try to find help? Why didn't anyone reach out? 

I'm may ignorant for questioning what makes a person go so low, but not cowardly.

There is ALWAYS hope, but you have to god damn fight for it.

That's actually way more ignorant to say than you may think it is. I'm willing to bet he DID look for help, and people DID reach out.

The battle of depression can very easily trump all of that, though. You clearly have no real idea what goes into the suffering of people with this infliction.

Sometimes, to that person, there really is no hope. Sometimes the thought is "Sure, I can survive, but why survive if I'm never going to be happy?" You can't force people to be happy. Nobody can. Sometimes the thought of living a full life that has no happiness is a MUCH more horrifying thought than dying early and taking your chances on the afterlife.

You can't judge someone for their struggles, and what those struggles end up doing to them. Instead of shitting on them for the decision they made, you have to try and learn what made them get to that level, and do what you can to mend the damage that was done.

Calling them a coward does nothing but turn the people who loved that person against you, and make you seem like a judgmental asshole.

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In this context, it is easier to judge someone through a peephole than to try and understand why. 
Giving up your self-preservation is one of the toughest battles to fight, even more so when you are battling depression. Not saying that suicide is a good thing to commit it, but there are various reasons why people do it.

To us onlookers, we may mark the person as cowardly because they left behind loved ones and unanswered questions. In truth, no one can truly understand that individual's trial and how they felt before they decided to take their own life. 

 

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1 minute ago, Enigma said:

I understand your passion, but if he didn't want to leave his family so much, why do it? Is it supposed to make things better now that he's gone? Did he make plans to support them? 

If he was depressed why didn't he try to find help? Why didn't anyone reach out? 

I'm may ignorant for questioning what makes a person go so low, but not cowardly.

There is ALWAYS hope, but you have to god damn fight for it.

What makes you think he didn't fight for it?

It is not supposed to make it better now that he's gone. It was meant to end it for him. In his personal world, the bad exceeded the good parts of it so much to a degree where it was unbearable.

We aren't given enough details if he did or didn't make plans to support them.

One of the biggest hurdles to getting help is the fact that it's stigmatised in modern culture. Go to a shrink and you'll always be known as /that guy/. Furthermore help is not always available in the shape it is usable. We all treat our cases differently, and while psych help might work for others, some do not benefit from it, and it can even be harmful in some ways. Petrol to diesel cars works as an analogy here. Perhaps most importantly, the person does not typically want to burden others with his case, or gain attention. I would not be surprised if he didn't seek help since A) it will put a financial and emotional strain on the family, and B) it will label the guy depressed and whatever acts of kindness he gets, he might attribute those to people being nice to him just because he is depressed, which in turn negates them and makes them counterintuitive and it will bring him down even further... Maybe I project a little there, but it might be the case for him there, it's reasonably common.

Hope, for the depressed, is nearly nonexistent. People may acknowledge it exists, but no longer possess the mental facilites to try anymore; repeated failures of their past may hold them back as they've drained their willpower already. Liken it to a swordfight, these people lost a limb and still fought, but when all limbs are gone, what are you gonna do?

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You know, I actually did call a suicide hotline before. The woman that answered said that "My lack of God is the reason why I felt this way. Perhaps I should turn to Him for answers and pray instead of spitting on his gift of life. Do you have a church you can go to?"

That kind of answer's sucky and it just sounds like that the person was either tired as fuck, or wasn't willing to talk at all. There are stories like the aforementioned that people with suicidal thoughts or tendencies hear and it more perpetuates the stigma of blaming than helping.
 

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Just now, Enigma said:

@Sarcastic Coffeecup

@Lucyfish

I don't know his struggles or what led up to his demise. Hell they still don't know if it was a suicide. 

But I believe everyone has the power to pull better themselves. No one is beyond saving.

I believe in the strength of people. 

 

I'm done here.

 

Yes, anybody CAN be saved. But that doesn't mean everyone will be saved, nor does it make them a bad person for succumbing. People try very hard and still come up short. Sometimes, the only thought that gets into someone's mind is they need the suffering to end. It isn't your place to judge.

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12 minutes ago, Enigma said:

I understand your passion, but if he didn't want to leave his family so much, why do it? Is it supposed to make things better now that he's gone? Did he make plans to support them? 

If he was depressed why didn't he try to find help? Why didn't anyone reach out? 

I'm may ignorant for questioning what makes a person go so low, but not cowardly.

There is ALWAYS hope, but you have to god damn fight for it.

Please note before reading this: I do not advocate for suicide, and if you feel suicidal please call your local helpline.

When you have depression, it's like an off switch for everything you feel. You may have more room for negative emotions, such as sadness, but it's mostly apathy. In order to care about anything, this condition makes you fight through a fog of questions like "why am I doing this?" and because you no longer can feel happy, the answer is "I dont know."

It's possible to fight through this fog occassionally, but it takes every ounce of energy you have. It FEELS like an illness, like a cancer eating away at your will. It feels like a clock constantly waiting to tick down. Suicide seems like an inevitability, and your brain tells you that your loved ones see you as a burden. Maybe it convinces you that they'd be much happier once you died, you're the one holding back their happiness.

One can also make the argument that it's selfish to want people alive when they are suffering. For the things they give you? For the connections you feel for them? Because it's a social obligation to live? When cancer patients commit suicide, we may be sad, but there is a quiet understanding surrounding their death. Why is it different for depression?

Suicide is also not bound to human suffering. There are countless herds of horses that committed suicide rather than work to death during colonial migrations. 

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10 hours ago, FlynnCoyote said:

I can understand that in principle. But in his case, I just don't understand why. He hit a low point, but he was well on his way back up and his life was definitely stable.

Not everyone telegraphs everything that's wrong with them. Hell, some things that are wrong with people can't even be expressed properly.
But it does not negate the fact that those things brought someone to feel like continuing exist was not worth it. For his wish to discontinue to override his body's instinctual will to survive.

A lot of people won't understand that. And that's a good thing. It means you haven't been driven to that kind of low, yet.


@ The rest of this thread: Emotional reactions and posturing aside, if you would "never do that," that's great!
Relish that. Appreciate it. It's not a "wrong" decision, but it's still yours to make, and that's respectable.

However, suicide is also someone else's decision to make. We don't like the concept of death because it's scary and a burden and it makes us feel bad, but that shouldn't revoke someone else's personal right to make that decision, if that's what they really want. If that's what they want enough to overcome their personal fears in order to go through with it.

No one should be forced to stay alive as a form of emotional slavery to someone else.
We live our own lives at the end of the day. To consistently fight our own battles in our heads. Saying that people simply can or should get over it is a gross oversimplification of how the mind works, and what the brain is capable of doing to itself.
And if you don't understand that, I will repeat myself: That's a good thing. Appreciate it.
But don't expect the same of everyone else.
And don't expect everyone else to fight those battles persistently for what sometimes amounts to the rest of their lives (which could the better part of a century in some cases) because it hurts you to mourn their loss and fill their gap.

We should encourage people to seek help, naturally.
But shitting on them and their personal decision after the fact accomplishes nothing.

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While I would never condone suicide and would encourage anyone contemplating it to seek professional help, I can understand how someone would get there.  Feelings like loneliness, rejection, loss, and hopelessness, are very powerful emotions and it is extremely easy to go down that dark path when it feels like the only option.  I've looked down that road, it's both an ugly and beautiful place.  Thankfully I chose to walk a better path, but I can sympathies with those that have chosen the dark road.  

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I think people debating the ins and outs of the rational behind suicide are missing Toshabi's earlier point, that people in that situation are often irrational; many of them may in fact be mentally ill ( a reason I take issue with the notion that suicide is an act of autonomy, when it is often the symptom of an underlying disease ).

Returning to the original post though, so little information has been made public to us that we cannot make any confident suggestion about their motive for suicide.

You know, I actually did call a suicide hotline before. The woman that answered said that "My lack of God is the reason why I felt this way. Perhaps I should turn to Him for answers and pray instead of spitting on his gift of life. Do you have a church you can go to?"

That kind of answer's sucky and it just sounds like that the person was either tired as fuck, or wasn't willing to talk at all. There are stories like the aforementioned that people with suicidal thoughts or tendencies hear and it more perpetuates the stigma of blaming than helping.
 

Damn...

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25 minutes ago, Enigma said:

@Sarcastic Coffeecup

@Lucyfish

I don't know his struggles or what led up to his demise. Hell they still don't know if it was a suicide. 

But I believe everyone has the power to pull better themselves. No one is beyond saving.

I believe in the strength of people. 

 

I'm done here.

Irony alert.

Maybe now you have a better understanding on why people give up on things completely. 

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4 minutes ago, Enigma said:

I meant done posting about the topic.

 

I don't give up on things that matter. 

Please know that I envy how strong you feel about this, but that saying suicidal people are cowardly is actively damaging to them. Stigmatizing suicidal idealation causes people to hide "upsetting" behavior, and not seek help when they need it. 

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1 minute ago, Enigma said:

I meant done posting about the topic.

 

I don't give up on things that matter. 

I think the topic did matter to you until you realized nobody agreed with you.

Then you decided it didn't matter and gave up. 

Which is probably how most people go about giving up on things. 

Including life. Saying it doesn't matter. It's common in suicide notes. 

But you'd never give up. That's cowardly and low right? 

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I've known people on the brink before. At a party some seven years ago a friend's girlfriend wandered away from the house. I knew she'd been feeling low beforehand, so after failing to find him in a coherent state, I went after her myself and found her a few blocks away, crying near the edge of the road while staring down oncoming traffic. I had to drag her away and hold her while she was crying her eyes out and going on about hoe she deserved to die. Eventually a few of the others turned up and seeing her like that seemed to sober my friend up pretty fast. Whatever the issue was, I guess she figured it out because they've been fine ever since.

Another friend works in a multi storey warehouse building, and at a low point just last year found himself eying the windows more and more. He worked on one of the higher levels and finding a place to jump was easy. He told me about it, and words happened between us to the point where i was able to coax a promise out of him that he would stick around and give us a chance to make things better.

These two were obvious, they wanted to go but with help managed to pull themselves back. I've known plenty of cases like this. The ones that terrify me are the ones that don't just feel low and stand on the edge periodically. The ones that terrify me are the ones that smile til the end, the ones that you just have no way to anticipate.

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1 hour ago, Saxon said:

I think people debating the ins and outs of the rational behind suicide are missing Toshabi's earlier point, that people in that situation are often irrational; many of them may in fact be mentally ill ( a reason I take issue with the notion that suicide is an act of autonomy, when it is often the symptom of an underlying disease ).

People are irrational by nature. That does not require a mental illness.

Furthermore, people with mental illnesses are not automatically invalids with no sense of personal will or responsibility. Otherwise, literally everyone with one would be a ward of the state.
Having mental illness does not invalidate your ability to make decisions as a person. It does not make you a child.

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3 minutes ago, Vae said:

People are irrational by nature. That does not require a mental illness.

Furthermore, people with mental illnesses are not automatically invalids with no sense of personal will or responsibility. Otherwise, literally everyone with one would be a ward of the state.
Having mental illness does not invalidate your ability to make decisions as a person. It does not make you a child.

Except when it does. 

Some people have mental illnesses that make them incapable of making decisions of any kind. If you're referring to mild or controlled mental illness I agree. If you're talking about people who chop heads off on the bus then I strongly disagree. 

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Just now, #00Buck said:

Except when it does. 

Some people have mental illnesses that make them incapable of making decisions of any kind. If you're referring to mild or controlled mental illness I agree. If you're talking about people who chop heads off on the bus then I strongly disagree. 

There are certain circumstances when it does, which I already accounted for when I said that "it does not automatically make you a ward of the state."

Squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
Etc.

Obviously there are exceptions, but that's implied by common sense.

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10 minutes ago, Vae said:

There are certain circumstances when it does, which I already accounted for when I said that "it does not automatically make you a ward of the state."

Squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
Etc.

Obviously there are exceptions, but that's implied by common sense.

Well in many cases it does in countries with socialized medicine. But you're an American so I'm sure your experience is different. 

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12 minutes ago, Vae said:

People are irrational by nature. That does not require a mental illness.

Furthermore, people with mental illnesses are not automatically invalids with no sense of personal will or responsibility. Otherwise, literally everyone with one would be a ward of the state.
Having mental illness does not invalidate your ability to make decisions as a person. It does not make you a child.

Suicidal feelings are implicated in many mental illnesses, so I have reservations about regarding self destructive feelings that result from those conditions as an expression of autonomy, rather than a symptom of the disease, which could be managed or cured with the correct medical intervention. 

I'm a little bit worried that representing suicide as the ultimate autonomy could lead to people, who experience suicidal feelings, failing to consider the possibility that those feelings are actually indicative of an unresolved mental health problem for which they can seek help.

Of course some people do autonomously decide to commit suicide; people who choose euthanasia instead of a languid death from a progressive terminal disease are an example.

 

 

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Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem...

4 minutes ago, Vae said:

Having mental illness does not invalidate your ability to make decisions as a person. It does not make you a child.

No, but they are often in an impaired emotional state at that time. Its rather callous to call it an act of autonomy when its anything but. Its people being backed into a corner with seemingly no other way out.

Most people that are suicidal DO NOT WANT to actually die. They just see no other solution to their problem. There's a reason suicidal people often tell others that they are thinking about killing themselves or drop little hints that they hope other people notice and ask, "Whats going on?" Depression is a treatable illness. Life circumstances can usually change. Best thing you can do for a suicidal person is reach out to them and not leave them alone.

1 hour ago, Zeke said:

You know, I actually did call a suicide hotline before. The woman that answered said that "My lack of God is the reason why I felt this way. Perhaps I should turn to Him for answers and pray instead of spitting on his gift of life. Do you have a church you can go to?"

That kind of answer's sucky and it just sounds like that the person was either tired as fuck, or wasn't willing to talk at all. There are stories like the aforementioned that people with suicidal thoughts or tendencies hear and it more perpetuates the stigma of blaming than helping.
 

That's really shitty and that woman should be fired. I've worked one of those hotlines before at a psychiatric mental health unit. The people working those lines should simply focus on this: Asking "Do you feel like killing yourself?" "Do you have a plan?" "Do you have what you need to do it?" "Have you thought about when you would do it?" so as to determine risk level. Then simply keep the person talking. Ask them open ended questions about what they're feeling and why they feel that way. Do they have anyone in their life they can talk to? If yes trying to get a hold of that person while staying on the line with the suicidal person. If they have high risk, encourage them to call 911 or go to an emergency room.

The point is to listen attentively, summarize their problems, let them vent, be supportive, and stay calm. Not blame the caller or provide solutions. Simply talk them through it, offer support and get them through their crisis while gently encouraging them to seek help.

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Usually when someone is getting to the point to where they are going to off themselves, what they need most is validation. Advice, criticism, all that can only go so far. At least in my experience, what they want and need is a reason that speaks to them. An excuse to fight through the pain.

"Think of your family and friends" isn't going to mean shit if your family and friends don't bring you the happiness you need to get through the pain. Everyone is different, and everyone is going to have different reasons for getting so low. Everyone is also going to have different ways of getting away from that pain. That's why treating depression is the most personal thing anyone can ever do.

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2 hours ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

Cowardice?

No.

Offing oneself is not an act of cowardice. It's extremely hard to do on purpose. Go on, go ahead. Grab a knife and cut yourself. Go on a roof and teeter on the edge. Hesitant? Didn't really go deep? That's your self preservation instinct holding you back.

One of the pillars upon which human behaviour is built, is self preservation instinct. Overcoming that in a deliberate attempt is not easy, and not an act a coward would do. Do you think he wanted to leave his kids and wife behind? Pretty sure that's a no for that, social obligations and love are strong ties. His life must have felt EXTREMELY shitty to even consider leaving them behind.

You can counterargument that it's selfish. But no, it's not really that either. When a person has given up all hope and goes for the last action of their life, do you think they've just suddenly got the idea for suicide? I guara-fucking-tee you that it's not the first time. They've done the selfless act of hanging on still, some for years, some less than that. Nobody has the capacity to do or be what everyone else wants forever.

Another counterargument you could say is that he was well on his way in life, but here's a newsflash, suicide occurs from depression. Depression is an illness, comparable to any physical trauma. Just the same as having a happy life won't bring a lost limb back, neither does a life look good for a person with depression regardless of facts.

I get a little heated when someone says suicide is an act of cowardice. It's more cowardly to call people as cowards when you have no fucking idea what the preceding life is for that person. You have no right.

This 

All of this.

When you're suicidal you kind of stop seeing the big picture or stop caring. You're hurting right now, you're tired RIGHT NOW. Depression isn't just a matter of being sad. You are sad but you're also tired, sometimes angry, often numb, and there's this unshakable sense of being completely isolated. In a way it is a state of mind but the unfortunate thing about that is that states of mind are much harder to escape than your location, you habits or your financial situation. No matter how your life changes there's no guarantee that the feelings of hopelessness, pointlessness and exhaustion with it all will go away. Talking to a professional can help you identify and manage the problem. Sometimes no matter how much people want to let go they keep sticking around because they have loved ones, because they have responsibilities, because they've been told leaving is selfish and they don't want to be a burden. Consistently suicidal people don't want to cause other people pain so they keep sticking it out while they feel like they're already dead inside. I've had my own struggles with depression, stemming from past trauma that left me with PTSD. Struggling through a period of substance abuse, crippling anxiety and feelings of total isolation I lost myself to the point that my whole identity became fragmented (for lack of a better description). Calling someone a coward because they want to escape being trapped in that cycle just shows that you have no idea how hard a mental illness can hit someone. Yes, with help and the will to keep going people can recover and improve their quality of life. But often it's a life sentence. It will always be there lurking in the background, just waiting to try and claw it's way out and destroy you. 

It's way to easy for people to say "just stick it out" or "don't let it get to you", like it's a passing phase or an internet bully that you can ignore if you try hard enough. People reduce it to something like having a bad day. It's more accurate to describe it as being half-way here. You're present and functioning but you're disconnected from everything around you, you can be in a crowd of people and still feel completely isolated. The sound of a screaming child in the store, flickering lights and the smells of perfumes, make-up, soap and food  overstimulate your senses until you just shut down and give the controls over to auto pilot. That's not LIVING and it's not something you can just snap out of, a change of scenery won't cure it, more money can't fix it, the only things that help are medication and therapy and those won't cure you, they'll just help you manage the symptoms. You can't just "get over it" your mental health is the reality of your life for the rest of your life. I will never condemn someone who wants to escape that. 

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I've come close quite a few times, mainly when it feels like I've run out of options: to dig myself out of financial ruin, be able to live some kinda normal life, where I can afford to see a dentist and maybe have a car get my cornea replaced(transplant), and have a meaningful job, and not be in pain so much.

I've seen numerous therapists, taken a laundry list of medications (SSRIs were the absolute worst, for me), tried a ton of more holistic things...and while I am still alive, the thought of suicide still washes over me sometimes, like an undercurrent, not at all rational, just something that is there.

Sometimes, it will hit suddenly, while I'm waiting on the train platform, and I think of how easy and quick it could be. And that suicide by train is about the most 'successful' of all methods.

Then, other times, there's the times I make plans: Of going out to this beautiful area, where the Gunpowder River is dammed up, into a huge reservoir. The damn has two openings at the very bottom, perhaps 200 or more feet down, where the very cold water shoots back into the river, at great pressure: It's amazing to watch, and walk down by, and feel the cool mist. Up above, signs warn of the dangerous undertow. I have often thought of taking enough Valium to be oblivious, and then, jumping: the cold water, the numbness, the pressure building, and then it seems like a very peaceful thought.

What's held me back? The love of a few people out there, is all. If that runs out, I think I'd pull the plug, pretty quickly.

~

There's also those times when I could have overdosed, maybe should have, but didn't...I've given up those wild ways, but I do recall one night where I had taken all but one of the drugs found in Heath Ledger's body, after the autopsy: I was lucky. I think, that night, I must have taken at least 20-50 mg of Valium, 2 Mg Klonopin, a few 60 mg morphine-sulfate tablets, oral, smoked a lot of weed, did some lines of coke, and drank at least a pint of Beam, probably more.That was in my wild years. I made it out OK, but while I was having fun, I have to wonder: Was I also trying, secretly wishing, to end things? Where is the fine line between suicide and overdose? I almost found it.

But it's a hard thing. I've found there's no easy solutions, and that even with meds which always made me feel like a zombie and killed my sexual 'self', it's no guarantee you'll feel better...talk therapy has helped the most, and kinky sex...but only with somebody I also truely like/love as a friend; has never been able to be some random thing.

It looks like I'll be adopting a very eager, sweet, playful, rubber fox-pet pretty soon, and that has kept me very much alive feeling...more so than most anything. And while this and some other things are keeping me afloat, I still worry: It feels like you're haunted, to live with these things.

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2 hours ago, GarthTheWereWolf said:

 

That's really shitty and that woman should be fired. I've worked one of those hotlines before at a psychiatric mental health unit. The people working those lines should simply focus on this: Asking "Do you feel like killing yourself?" "Do you have a plan?" "Do you have what you need to do it?" "Have you thought about when you would do it?" so as to determine risk level. Then simply keep the person talking. Ask them open ended questions about what they're feeling and why they feel that way. Do they have anyone in their life they can talk to? If yes trying to get a hold of that person while staying on the line with the suicidal person. If they have high risk, encourage them to call 911 or go to an emergency room.

The point is to listen attentively, summarize their problems, let them vent, be supportive, and stay calm. Not blame the caller or provide solutions. Simply talk them through it, offer support and get them through their crisis while gently encouraging them to seek help.

She did ask those questions before the last few, but I felt it very invasive and not to mention rude as fuck to even state that the reason why I felt this way was religious failings which wasn't the point to why I called. I wanted help, not some condescending religious tripe. 

However, there are people who also have the same experiences with either inexperienced people or exasperated "do it faggot" types who either give bad advice, or do not do anything to keep you busy to talk you from doing self-harm. Those types make it hard for the extremely depressed that are tinkering on the edge into the void. They become further withdrawn and conceal it, or they choose to commit suicide anyway because they get the conformation that they are a burden and better off not living.

 

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Those hotlines can be a very mixed bag. I've often felt worse after calling them, and was even once told I wasn't suicidal enough, and they hung up.

I was reminded of a Poem, by Anne Sexton:

The Fury of Abandonment

Someone lives in a cave
eating his toes,
I know that much.
Someone little lives under a bush
pressing an empty Coca-Cola can against
his starving bloated stomach,
I know that much.
A monkey had his hands cut off
for a medical experiment
and his claws wept.
I know that much.

I know that it is all
a matter of hands.
Out of the mournful sweetness of touching
comes love
like breakfast.
Out of the many houses come the hands
before the abandonment of the city,
out of the bars and shops,
a thin file of ants.

I've been abandoned out here
under the dry stars
with no shoes, no belt
and I've called Rescue Inc.;
that old-fashioned hot line -
no voice.
Left to my own lips, touch them,
my own nostrils, shoulders, breasts,
navel, stomach, mound, kneebone, ankle,
touch them.

It makes me laugh
to see a woman in this condition.
It makes me laugh for America and New York city
when your hands are cut off
and no one answers the phone.

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2 hours ago, Zeke said:

You know, I actually did call a suicide hotline before. The woman that answered said that "My lack of God is the reason why I felt this way. Perhaps I should turn to Him for answers and pray instead of spitting on his gift of life. Do you have a church you can go to?"

That kind of answer's sucky and it just sounds like that the person was either tired as fuck, or wasn't willing to talk at all. There are stories like the aforementioned that people with suicidal thoughts or tendencies hear and it more perpetuates the stigma of blaming than helping.
 

ech...:/ My dad once commented on a commercial about prescription medication for depression and said they felt that way because they didnt have God in their life, and Im there thinking 'um, that's not how it works...', because you know, medical depression is literally a physical problem and having God in your life doesnt fix that, youd still just be a depressed Christian...

I dont know why people advocate religion as a band aid for emotional struggle, like, if it works for you good for you but telling other people their life sucks because they arent religious enough is an ass backwards mentality.

Vice versa literally tons of people are super happy and not depressed and they dont subscribe to religions and the like..

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57 minutes ago, GarthTheWereWolf said:

 Asking "Do you feel like killing yourself?" "Do you have a plan?" "Do you have what you need to do it?" "Have you thought about when you would do it?" so as to determine risk level. Then simply keep the person talking. Ask them open ended questions about what they're feeling and why they feel that way. Do they have anyone in their life they can talk to? If yes trying to get a hold of that person while staying on the line with the suicidal person. If they have high risk, encourage them to call 911 or go to an emergency room.

The point is to listen attentively, summarize their problems, let them vent, be supportive, and stay calm. Not blame the caller or provide solutions. Simply talk them through it, offer support and get them through their crisis while gently encouraging them to seek help.

I hope you dont mind me keeping this for reference in the future. I never know what to say, since I've been depressed for 11 years, everything I can think of seems like platitudes. I end up making it worse :/

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1 hour ago, GarthTheWereWolf said:

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem...

Not targeting you since the rest of your post had a lot of good substance to it, but it really bothers me when people just use this cliche as if it's supposed to be helpful. Although technically true in the long term(which could extend for centuries or more depending on how good medical science gets), somebody who is suicidal does not feel their problem is temporary and this little clever ditty is unlikely to convince them otherwise. If anything, they will probably just think you don't understand their problem and are trivializing it by saying something that has essentially become a catch phrase to people who face suicidal thoughts frequently.

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42 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

ech...:/ My dad once commented on a commercial about prescription medication for depression and said they felt that way because they didnt have God in their life, and Im there thinking 'um, that's not how it works...', because you know, medical depression is literally a physical problem and having God in your life doesnt fix that, youd still just be a depressed Christian...

I dont know why people advocate religion as a band aid for emotional struggle, like, if it works for you good for you but telling other people their life sucks because they arent religious enough is an ass backwards mentality.

Vice versa literally tons of people are super happy and not depressed and they dont subscribe to religions and the like..

Religion is a preventative factor when it comes to suicide. Besides the moral qualm that comes from taking your own life it also provides a social support group you can turn to.

With that said, telling someone "You just need more Jesus" is a terrible way to help someone. Whether they're religious or not. Its far better to say, "Hey, I'm here for you. Talk to me. Let me help you." And if you're both religious its fine to add, "Let me pray for you." Whats important is being present for the person <;

Religion isn't a magical panacea that works for everyone.

The right belief is like a good sweater, I think. If it fits you well, it keeps you warm and safe. The wrong fit however can suffocate.

35 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

I hope you dont mind me keeping this for reference in the future. I never know what to say, since I've been depressed for 11 years, everything I can think of seems like platitudes. I end up making it worse :/

Please do <; I made the post with that very thing in mind so that if anyone here does encounter someone that's suicidal they'd be better equipped to handle it.

1 minute ago, Socketosis said:

Not targeting you since the rest of your post had a lot of good substance to it, but it really bothers me when people just use this cliche as if it's supposed to be helpful. Although technically true in the long term(which could extend for centuries or more depending on how good medical science gets), somebody who is suicidal does not feel their problem is temporary and this little clever phrase is unlikely to convince them otherwise. If anything, they will probably just think you don't understand their problem and are trivializing it by saying something that has basically become a catch phrase to people who face suicidal thoughts frequently.

I understand. I never meant that phrase to be something you would tell a suicidal person. Rather, that is what I was taught in nursing school is the outlook medical professionals should take on the subject of suicide. We're there to help the person work their way through the crisis and help them see that death is not the only path there is and that they have other options.

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You know, during all these times where I have thought of, planned out, and a couple times tried to execute, the main pervasive thought was of me failing my loved ones, or indeed being a primary source of their pain.

It started off small and then in basic everything that was tall was a rush I felt, everything sinew was a rope for myself, everything sharp was a warm rush. I'm very very lucky to have loving people in my life to help take me from being damaged and indeed broken in so many ways.

 

 

Sometimes, I think what drives people to suicide is the honesty they have with themselves, and how much of their future they can percieve of their future. It's often coldy rational, as it's clear there aren't many happy endings in life and attempts to fight it and lie to yourself fade in strength as the days go on and you try to plan more for the future.

Some of us deal with it by becoming more irresponsible, financially, sexually, but some of us fear harming others by doing such and believe it may be best to simply leave on a good note.

 

 

I, personally, am alive. I've learned to adjust my expectations for this life to some basic things: I want to be good to my family, friends, strangers and be free of my rather pervasive mental illnesses which some days cut me off from reality into a sea of foreign voices of varying intentions. I don't want to die, I don't want to be a toxic person, I simply want to love and spread warmth.

 

I think the best, absolutely best, thing that can be done is to give somebody hope. Not some flimsy false promise, not a bible, to actually give them the potential for the future to be better even if they alone are too weak to accomplish such..... fact is most of us just want things to be okay and suicide is what happens when it seems we have no way for them to be whether through ourselves or the conditions in which we make our path.

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Suicide is a topic that I really struggle with. I used to believe very firmly that suicide was selfish and cowardly, but my view has changed considerably since I began to study psychology, and since I entered a long term relationship with a person why regularly struggled with suicidal ideation. 

I envy the strength and resolve of people like my girlfriend. You know how back in the day people used to believe that mentally ill people were possessed by demons? There's a very good reason for that. It's like there's a monster in your head that you can't escape, because it's a part of you. It beats you down every day, tells you over and over that you're worthless, unfit to be loved, alone, that the way you feel now is the way it's always gonna be and that there's no hope of things being different. To look somebody in the eye who has dealt with that kind of shit for most of their lives and then call them a selfish coward for finally giving in, to me, is remarkably cruel. How could I ever begin to understand what it feels like to be so dejected that the only escape is jumping into the void? You guys that have the strength to overcome that are amazing to me.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm the selfish one. I don't want anybody to kill themselves, I fucking love you guys and to see your lives snuffed early out would break my heart. I don't want you to suffer, but I don't want you to disappear before you have a chance to experience joy either.  I just wish the way that medical care is run in this country wasn't so fucking cruel to people who don't have money. If you decide to give in I understand why, but I want you guys to hang on so badly, at least until you get the shot at happiness that every human being deserves to me.

I should stop rambling now, im sorry

if you're mentally ill and you have the opportunity to get help, please don't squander it

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5 hours ago, Enigma said:

I don't know his struggles or what led up to his demise. Hell they still don't know if it was a suicide. 

But I believe everyone has the power to pull better themselves. No one is beyond saving.

I believe in the strength of people. 

 

I'm done here.

So you're saying the people who were so beaten down by life that they felt that they couldn't go on...
...should be put down for having felt those feelings? That's supposed to encourage the others? 
With all due respect catfriend, that is incredibly ignorant.

When you see a plant that's about to wither and wilt, do you flick it and insult it? Tell it to straighten up?
No, you brace it up, you water it, you put it in the sun; you come to it's aid.
You give freely of your strength so they can rebuild theirs.  

You nurture.
Not play drill sergeant.

You have a lot to learn if you want to be the helpful force you wish to be. 

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2 minutes ago, Endless/Nameless said:

So you're saying the people who were so beaten down by life that they felt that they couldn't go on...
...should be put down for having felt those feelings? That's supposed to encourage the others? 
With all due respect catfriend, that is incredibly ignorant.

When you see a plant that's about to wither and wilt, do you flick it and insult it? Tell it to straighten up?
No, you brace it up, you water it, you put it in the sun; you come to it's aid.
You give freely of your strength so they can rebuild theirs.  

You nurture.
Not play drill sergeant.

You have a lot to learn if you want to be the helpful force you wish to be. 

When did I ever say kick a person when they're down?

Help them! 

My opinions are my own. But I will never turn my back to someone in need! Don't mistake yourself friend.

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30 minutes ago, MuttButt said:

You know how back in the day people used to believe that mentally ill people were possessed by demons? There's a very good reason for that. It's like there's a monster in your head that you can't escape, because it's a part of you. It beats you down every day, tells you over and over that you're worthless, unfit to be loved, alone, that the way you feel now is the way it's always gonna be and that there's no hope of things being different.

Amusingly enough, back before I had an official diagnosis for the shit that was wrong with me, my friends were convinced I was possessed by demons. (If that sounds very outdated, welcome to small town West Virginia.)

It's a good metaphor, in any case. People underestimate the struggles that those with mental illness deal with. Every. Single. Day.
Give that 10 or 20 years straight, with little to no escape, and you're not gonna have much of a fight left in you, either.
Struggles are easy to assess and dismiss when they're confined within a small scope. Not when you carry them for the majority of your life.

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It's hard, too, because in America, a lot of people just can't afford professional treatment at all, or, are stuck with crappy, sub-par treatment, and few options...so the less wealthy you are, the more helpless you feel, on top of already struggling with feeling helpless...which is not at all easy. That, and the suicide rate here is at something of a 40 year high, as I recall, with people in the 40ish-50 range the most likely to die.

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From my own experience, if it wasn't for the people who love me, I probably wouldn't be around.

Anybody can save a life. You can't save everyone, but it's always worth trying. In the end, no matter what your opinion is, the best thing to do is just support. Try to be there. Let the person know you want to do whatever it takes to help them.

I was ready to die during August of last year. Then the girl who I am now in love with said "No, here's what you're going to do. Drop everything and live with me. I will help you start a life you can enjoy no matter what." Here I am over a year later, and I'm alive. I was saved. I may be going slow, but because of June, I am going.

So yeah, in my experience, the best medicine is support and love. Sometimes you can't stop someone from going out on their own terms, but even if they do then I believe no matter what, that person will still see your help as something positive.

My friend Kenny's last words to me before he stepped in front of a train were "Hey, be nice to my mom." To this day, even though I'm no longer living in California, Kenny's mother treats me like I was her own child. To honor Kenny's memory, we were able to get together enough money to get him added as a playable character to the parody fighting game Divekick. I'm not really religious, but there is a part of my spirituality that says to me that the people we love who have died, via suicide or otherwise, are watching us. Somehow sending us subliminal things in life to help us along. Maybe that love we have for the people we've lost is strong enough to transcend death and give those people true existance and consciousness in our hearts. Maybe my memory, love, and respect for Kenny is Kenny himself. I don't know, I'm weird and rave-y, but I think keeping respect for people in death for what they did in life is the most important thing.

I wish Kenny hadn't taken his own life. I wish he could have opened up and let us do everything we could for him. But I can't pretend to know what was going on in his life. Kenny was high-fuctioning autistic, with an adult younger brother who had even more problems with autism than him, both of them living with their mother who worked her ass off doing everything she could for them both. If I were to take a guess, I'd think that Kenny felt guilty. I think he felt like he was a burden on his mother, who is one of the most loving and hard working people I've ever known. Kenny could have helped with working, but again, he was someone who struggled. It's not uncommon for someone with autism to feel trapped inside their own head. To feel broken, or irredeemable.

Kenny was one of the sweetest, most selfless people I ever met. Everyone was more important than him in his eyes. It's hard to break the thought when all your life you've felt a step below most normal people. I can't call him selfish for what he did, because when he was living all he ever did was give. His life, brain, and experiences all told him that the world would be better without him. That opinion may have been 100% wrong, but his life convinced him there was no other way. I miss him and I believe he should not have done what he did, but I will defend him and the person he was until my own dying breath.

 

Sorry for wall I'm high lol

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