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Trans daughter sued by fundie mother....


Crazy Lee
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http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/11/18/trans-daughter-sued-by-mother-for-transitioning/?utm_source=ET&utm_medium=ETFB&utm_campaign=portal&utm_content=inf_10_60_2&tse_id=INF_99062b30b01c11e687e8ddfefce09c02

So, a daughter that doesn't live with her mother anymore, probably because her mother is a hateful fundie who doesn't approve of her "son's" belief that he's a woman, was sued by said mother.

I'd be worried about her legal fees to defend herself but the ACLU will probably pick up the tab... :V

What caught my eye about the story, however, is the law firm representing the mother, who's probably doing it pro-bono. I actually happen to know some things about the law firm. The Thomas More law firm is a conservative religious law firm that, according to their wiki page, has the goals of:

Quote

Its stated goals are to defend and promote America's Judeo-Christian heritage and moral values, including the religious freedom of Christians, time-honored family values, 

In other words, abortion, gays, gay marriage, trans people, Islam, religious freedom and the like. Oh by the way, take a look at their wiki page and the cases they've been involved in. They seem willing to just sue people willy nilly.

The reason I know about this law firm is that, sadly, they're local. The law firm is located at what is known as Domino's Farms, the headquarters of Domino's Pizza, located just outside of Ann Arbor's city limits. This is a bit strange because Ann Arbor is the bluest area of the blue liberal sea that is a large portion of the Detroit area. Not so strange considering that the founder and former owner of Domino's Pizza, Tom Monaghan, was himself a fundie Catholic. He built Domino's Headquarters (still owns the building and land), started the Thomas More law firm, and also built a Catholic planned university town in Florida that has laws based on conservative Catholic beliefs (and is a joke with the locals). Seriously don't know what the fuck's up with Florida anyway.

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5 minutes ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

To be fair the kid wasn't legally an adult and the mother has a point in that she was still in charge of the kid's life.

I believe the article said that the laws in her state permit her to receive medical care without parental consent if she is financially independent, which I would assume she was if that point was brought up in the article and the mother wasn't initially aware of her kid getting something as huge as hormone therapy.

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if the law says the kid is financially independent and therefore not obligated to get consent from anyone else, then the mother doesn't have a leg to stand on.  she's gonna come out looking a fool and wasting everyone's time and money; what did she hope to accomplish if the law was clearly not on her side?  smfh

also i never want to look at that website again

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It is very difficult to read the pink news article, because there are so many adverts that I cannot see the words.

I can see this from @Sarcastic Coffeecup 's point of view. From the mother's perspective the health board is prescribing un-needed and possibly harmful drugs to her child without parental consent. So I can understand the mother's emotional distress, even though I disagree with her.

It is unfortunate that the mother's feelings of protectiveness for her child are at odds with their own interests which, at 17, they are more than mature enough to decide for themselves.

Regarding the Thomas More Law Centre, they sound particularly slimy. I am very glad they lost their defense of creationists teaching biblical literalism in biology classes.

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2 hours ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

To be fair the kid wasn't legally an adult and the mother has a point in that she was still in charge of the kid's life.

We don't know for sure, but the general consensus of readers of the article is that the mother is suing her daughter because of her own personal prejudices and bigotry. If she were suing the kid because she was technically still in charge of her daughter's life, she likely wouldn't misgender her daughter in the video. Just an observation but who knows? This whole situation is very messed up.

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There's no base for the mother's case, legally the kid can do what they want as long as they are independent. I raise doubts if the kid should have all these rights, and so does she.

I completely understand the mother though. Transitioning increases suicide risk substantially and it is very much possible it's been a hormonal imbalance to begin with typical to puberty. Causing irreversible changes one might regret later is a justified concern for a parent. Primarily she is upset the system allows and pays for it, not so much that the kid is trans.

You seem to forget she is also suing the associated agencies and firms that support the kid. The case is also about being able to retain parental rights.

News source is obviously biased and is meant to paint the mother as evil trans hater, treat it with a grain of salt.

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8 minutes ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

There's no base for the mother's case, legally the kid can do what they want as long as they are independent. I raise doubts if the kid should have all these rights, and so does she.

I completely understand the mother though. Transitioning increases suicide risk substantially and it is very much possible it's been a hormonal imbalance to begin with typical to puberty. Causing irreversible changes one might regret later is a justified concern for a parent. Primarily she is upset the system allows and pays for it, not so much that the kid is trans.

You seem to forget she is also suing the associated agencies and firms that support the kid. The case is also about being able to retain parental rights.

News source is obviously biased and is meant to paint the mother as evil trans hater, treat it with a grain of salt.

I didn't know this. I suppose it makes sense, given that hormonal changes in puberty can compromise mood.

Can you post the article you read this in? I have only found it stated indirectly so far as 'potentially increasing likelihood of depression'.
Other possible side effects listed on wikipedia also sound pretty undesirable.

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It seems the mother's less interested in her child becoming a functioning adult with healthy self esteem and more interested in her child forever remaining a child, never growing up and becoming independent.

Also, it seems like "Judeo-Christian" is always code for "fundamentalist Christian."  I've never met or heard a Christian who used it in any other context.

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On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

Transitioning increases suicide risk substantially and it is very much possible it's been a hormonal imbalance to begin with typical to puberty. Causing irreversible changes one might regret later is a justified concern for a parent. 

Dont know how transitioning increases risk of suicide, maybe the typical tension of starting out and social trauma, but overall it decreases suppressed feelings of being trans.

As for irreversible damage, thats hardly irreversible. For a girl, What's irreversible is NOT going on hormones/blockers early, because the more male puberty takes over the more fucked she is. Transwomen are on a timeclock as is, if they dont get treatment sooner rather than later they pass less easily in the future. 

Seriously, any women can easily reverse it by stop taking hormones and go on regular T treatments.

 

...so any aspect that people say hormones is irreversible (for girls) is a flat out lie, detransitioning is fairly easy if someone decides if that's turns out it wasnt what they discovered or figured out for themselves.

 

Any parents who claim hormone treatments (for children) is just people handing out hormone treatment like candy, well, thats not the case at all Most professionals who treat transgender kids go through lots of therapy between child and parent, to determine whether theyre actually trans or just a kid who acts more outside their gender norm.

^^^This part isnt directed at your comment just  random biases in general

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8 hours ago, Saxon said:

Can you post the article you read this in? I have only found it stated indirectly so far as 'potentially increasing likelihood of depression'.
Other possible side effects listed on wikipedia also sound pretty undesirable.

28 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Dont know how transitioning increases risk of suicide, maybe the typical tension of starting out and social trauma, but overall it decreases suppressed feelings of being trans.

I've heard of trans people being more likely to attempt or commit suicide from other people, but never really looked into it. According to this article, which cites this Williams Institute survey:

Quote

Vocativ.com

According to surveys, 4.6 percent of the overall U.S. population has self-reported a suicide attempt, with that number climbing to between 10 and 20 percent for lesbian, gay or bisexual respondents. By comparison, 41 percent of trans or gender non-conforming people surveyed have attempted suicide.

Quote

Williams Institute Survey

Overall, the most striking finding of our analysis was the exceptionally high prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts reported by NTDS respondents across all demographics and  experiences. Based on prior research and the findings of this report, we find that mental health factors and experiences of harassment, discrimination, violence and rejection may interact to produce a marked vulnerability to suicidal behavior in transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. More research on suicidal behavior among transgender and gender non-conforming people is needed.

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9 hours ago, Saxon said:

the health board is prescribing un-needed and possibly harmful drugs to her child without parental consent.

If only there was someone specialised in a certain field to help monitor the possible side effects of taking hormones...

9 hours ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

Transitioning increases suicide risk substantially and it is very much possible it's been a hormonal imbalance to begin with typical to puberty. Causing irreversible changes one might regret later is a justified concern for a parent.

Some changes are irreversible, but not all. Obviously if you have surgery that's irreversible, but it's very rare that someone regrets it aside from if something goes horribly wrong or it just doesn't look like what they were hoping for. I've heard that a few times, especially from guys.

Hormonal changes on the other hand are dependent upon how long you've been taking them and honestly if you've been on hormones for more than a year and don't regret it, chances are you're not going to

I would like to know where the suicide thing comes from though. I tried looking it up, but the only things I've found actually disprove that statement

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Found this, just via Google, and it seems to pertain to a high rate among transgendered youth in general; I'm not sure of what evidence there is that medical procedures/treatments would further increase the risk. I'm guessing there might be some studies on this; I work at a college library, so if I have time, it'd be interesting to see what's out there, on this topic. I may have to ask the Librarian/Subject Specialist in LGBT studies for some help, because now, I'm curious. Social factors seem to play a major role.

(Update: Searching PubMed, ProQuest, and nothing so far on the effects of transitioning on the suicide rates of transitioning individuals. There has to be something, though. One then wonders: How much is caused by the course of treatment, and how much by social or other factors?)

 

"In a new study, 30 percent of transgender youth report a history of at least one suicide attempt, and nearly 42 percent report a history of self-injury, such as cutting.

The Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center study also discovered a higher frequency of suicide attempts among transgender youth who are dissatisfied with their weight.

"Our study provides further evidence for the at-risk nature of transgender youth and emphasizes that mental health providers and physicians working with this population need to be aware of these challenges," says Claire Peterson, PhD, a psychologist at Cincinnati Children's and lead author of the study. "Dissatisfaction with one's appearance and the drive to look different from one's sex assigned at birth is central to gender dysphoria -- the feeling that your gender identity is different from that at birth."

More patients transitioning from female to male reported a history of suicide attempts and self-injury than those transitioning from male to female.

The study is published in Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior, the journal of the American Association of Suicidology.

The researchers analyzed data from the medical records of 96 transgender patients, ages 12 to 22, with gender dysphoria visiting the Transgender Health Clinic at Cincinnati Children's. The clinic has served nearly 500 patients since it opened in 2013.

Fifty-eight percent had at least one additional psychiatric diagnosis in addition to gender dysphoria. Nearly 63 percent indicated a history of bullying, 23.1 percent a history of school suspension or expulsion, 19.3 percent involvement in physical fights and 17.1 percent repeating a grade in school.

The Cincinnati Children's researchers hope that additional studies will shed more light on the relations among weight concerns, eating disorders, self-injury and suicidal behaviors.

Cincinnati Children's started its Transgender Health Clinic to provide an accepting atmosphere and services for patients up to 24 years of age.

Story Source:

Materials provided by Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center. Note: Content may be edited for style and length.

Journal Reference:

Claire M. Peterson, Abigail Matthews, Emily Copps-Smith and Lee Ann Conard. Suicidality, Self-Harm, and Body Dissatisfaction in Transgender Adolescents and Emerging Adults with Gender Dysphoria. Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior, 19 AUG 2016 DOI: 10.1111/sltb.12289"

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As per the question of suicide, there are a number of studies.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Other studies have indicated that acceptance of the immediate family, not friends or colleagues, is a major contributor to suicidality, but neglecting that the suicide rate is still drastically above average. Based on that and the high rate of mental illness in the community, I would think counseling should be advised with other treatments, but that's always required.

Anyway, according to an interview with the local news organization, the mother claimed that she wasn't concerned with the girl's transition, and that the case was about her being emancipated outside of the courts. Which is a pretty dodgy thing to begin with. Emancipation is no small matter and usually requires an investigation of the minor's home life and ability to care for himself, and really isn't a thing to be dispensed on a whim.

http://wreg.com/2016/11/20/minnesota-mom-sues-over-childs-transgender-change/
 

 Also, I have found no indication that the mother was a "fundie" in any of these :v

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4 hours ago, Socketosis said:

I've heard of trans people being more likely to attempt or commit suicide from other people, but never really looked into it. According to this article, which cites this Williams Institute survey:

Okay, so table 5 is the one we want, right?

People who don't want Hormone therapy are the least likely to commit suicide, but I'm going to omit them, because they're obviously not going to be among the cohort getting treatment.

There isn't a significant amount of difference really between lifetime suicide attempt risk among people who wanted hormone therapy and people who have had it, at 40 and 45% respectively.

But I can't tell whether this is informative, because maybe the people who already had therapy represent more severe cases?

 

3 hours ago, willow said:

If only there was someone specialised in a certain field to help monitor the possible side effects of taking hormones...

oh, I didn't present this argument because I found it convincing (I'm not medically literate and hence can't develop a worthwhile opinion on this question at the moment).

I was just trying to imagine what the mother is feeling.

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Oddly, lower incomes are more heavily correlated with suicide risk than HRT. Curious factor. And thanks to @Jtrekkie for posting!

Oh, and I dunno about that mother...she does have a cross necklace on, and has that glassy eyed look of the 'Common Midwestern Christian Fundamentalist', as depicted in the Audubon Guide.

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7 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

I cant judge the mother harshly for her actions as doing so is hypocritical

One is trying to force control of the other.
The other is just trying to do what she wants with herself.
So no, it kind of isn't.

Additionally, HRT isn't a "belief," it's a fucking medical process.

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What I see is one side forcing one side to accept the other, both are equally wrong.

Also I'm not transphobic but there is no physical proof that people are misgendered from birth. If these people like to think they're in the wrong gender... that's perfectly fine but to bend the truth to spare the feelings of others is "for me" wrong

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14 hours ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

I completely understand the mother though. Transitioning increases suicide risk substantially

I'm pretty sure that being sued by your mother to throw you back into the closet while she's holding public press conferences to drag you into the public eye also comes with a substantially increased risk for suicide.

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3 hours ago, Jtrekkie said:

Anyway, according to an interview with the local news organization, the mother claimed that she wasn't concerned with the girl's transition, and that the case was about her being emancipated outside of the courts. Which is a pretty dodgy thing to begin with. Emancipation is no small matter and usually requires an investigation of the minor's home life and ability to care for himself, and really isn't a thing to be dispensed on a whim.

http://wreg.com/2016/11/20/minnesota-mom-sues-over-childs-transgender-change/
 

From what I could tell is that the mother is no longer the legal guardian of the child, and thus cannot make decisions for that child. Perhaps the separation was not legally handled and thus the child is not legally separated from the mother, but the article made it sound like the child was no longer a ward of the mother, thus the mother couldn't make decisions for her anymore.

4 hours ago, Jtrekkie said:

Also, I have found no indication that the mother was a "fundie" in any of these :v

And I do not know if the mother is a fundie or not, but she did hire a conservative christian organization run by "fundies" who practices law based on conservative christian beliefs. Whether she picked the law firm because she shared those beliefs, or the law firm offered their services I do not know. However, it would be strange that the law firm would know of her desire to sue. I would think the mother either sought the law firm out, or they were the only ones who would take her case. And as I said, the lady lives in Minn and the law firm is in the Detroit area, and those are a pretty good distance apart. Most people pick local law firms.

Lady picks conservative christian anti-gay law firm? I have to wonder WHY she chose that specific one.

 

31 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

What I see is one side forcing one side to accept the other, both are equally wrong.

The mother is telling the daughter "You have to do what I want you to do" when they are supposedly legally separated. You can't just force other people to do things because your morals say it's wrong.

41 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

Also I'm not transphobic but there is no physical proof that people are misgendered from birth. If these people like to think they're in the wrong gender... that's perfectly fine but to bend the truth to spare the feelings of others is "for me" wrong

And don't tell me you're going to start with that same shit I hear from AM conservative talk radio when they're trying to win the trans debate... "Liberals claim they are pro science, claim the other side ignores science, yet lives in a fantasy world. They say you can be any gender you want, and ignore DNA, and external genitalia. Who's the ones who are being logical and factual and scientific now?" Because that's the argument I hear from them, all the time.

And "Spare the feelings of others"? How about just being a nice person? Someone would rather be called a certain way, just be a nice dude and non-confrontational and go along with their wishes. It's not going to cause you any pain and suffering.

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1 hour ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

What I see is one side forcing one side to accept the other, both are equally wrong.

Also I'm not transphobic but there is no physical proof that people are misgendered from birth. If these people like to think they're in the wrong gender... that's perfectly fine but to bend the truth to spare the feelings of others is "for me" wrong

a transgender person going about their business isn't forcing anything on anyone.  if you want to call them by the gender you want them to be, that's on you. 

anyway, have this

 

as for the mother's intentions, if she's just concerned about the people in charge of the medical treatments or the emancipation procedure... why'd she sue the 17-year-old?

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42 minutes ago, Crazy Lee said:

"Liberals claim they are pro science, claim the other side ignores science, yet lives in a fantasy world. They say you can be any gender you want, and ignore DNA, and external genitalia

I'm a right. I can be conservative yet be tolerant.

also being nice is subjective, if they're a transgender and is whiny little bitch, then they don't deserve my respect

The amount of times people here bashed me for "misgendering" people when it was just an honest mistake

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

I'm a right. I can be conservative yet be tolerant.

also being nice is subjective, if they're a transgender and is whiny little bitch, then they don't deserve my respect

The amount of times people here bashed me for "misgendering" people when it was just an honest mistake

 

 

 

 

If you are socially liberal in some or most while being fiscally conservative, it would technically make you a Liberal Republican. 

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27 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

I'm a right. I can be conservative yet be tolerant.

Yes. And you can be conservative in some ways and not others. Socially liberal, fiscally con, foreign policy liberal, small gov con. Being that you're gay, I assume you're not conservative about that aspect, because that tends to be believing that gays shouldn't marry, or even shouldn't be allowed to have sex. I would think that being gay would give at least some sympathy towards trans people or other LGBT people since both gays and trans tend to be harassed and oppressed by the same groups of people.

Plus, since you brought up no proof of being trans, there is also no physical proof of people being gay either. I don't see anything physical about you that states that you want to have sex with men. So, you could be making all of that shit up. You could be bending the truth. Living a fantasy. Genitalia and sexual attraction evolved so the males and the females of the species could create offspring; homosexuality does not create offspring so it's illogical.

34 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

also being nice is subjective, if they're a transgender and is whiny little bitch, then they don't deserve my respect

People are whiny bitches whether or not they're trans. The number of whiny bitches who are not trans outnumber the ones who are. 

35 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

The amount of times people here bashed me for "misgendering" people when it was just an honest mistake

Here? I haven't seen this personally.

Was it really an honest mistake though? I guess it would depend on if you didn't know and accidentally labeled them the wrong gender, as opposed to knowing their trans and knowing what they want to be called and still ignoring that request and calling them by the opposite.

I have seen way too many people who are trans or allies get angry for an actual mislabeling. I accidentally mislabel people. It happens. I think those who are trans should look at the intent of the person. If it was an accident, let it go or gently correct them. If it's something where they want to mislabel because they want to be a dick to people, then you could get angry.

5 minutes ago, Zeke said:

If you are socially liberal in some or most while being fiscally conservative, it would technically make you a Liberal Republican. 

Or, possibly a libertarian.

2 minutes ago, Zeke said:

No problem. being left or right in your party's just kind of a side dish of being a Republican or Democrat.

There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats (like the dixiecrats). In fact the GOP used to be liberal, the Dems used to be conservative for the most part.

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12 minutes ago, Crazy Lee said:

Being that you're gay, I assume you're not conservative about that aspect, because that tends to be believing that gays shouldn't marry, or even shouldn't be allowed to have sex. I would think that being gay would give at least some sympathy towards trans people or other LGBT people since both gays and trans tend to be harassed and oppressed by the same groups of people

Fantasizing my boyfriend to grow a vagina counts for anything? :V
 

Again I don't have problem with transgender it's what they do. I have certain disagreements with them trying to change the current status quo like transgender restroom, now... I don't want to touch that subject because it's rather black and white

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55 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

I'm a right. I can be conservative yet be tolerant.

 

55 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

if they're a transgender and is whiny little bitch, then they don't deserve my respect

I don't think you quite understand what that word means. Might wanna refresh your understanding of the english language a bit.

55 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

The amount of times people here bashed me for "misgendering" people when it was just an honest mistake

I'm pretty sure that's not the issue most people here have with you, nor have I seen people on this site completely lose their shit over pronouns,
but sure why not.

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1 hour ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

also being nice is subjective, if they're a transgender AND is whiny little bitch, then they don't deserve my respect

 

15 minutes ago, Vae said:

I don't think you quite understand what that word means. Might wanna refresh your understanding of the english language a bit.

OK :V

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3 hours ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

Also I'm not transphobic but there is no physical proof that people are misgendered from birth.

Except there are studies that back up the claim that gender and sex are developed separately, or at the very least that gender doesn't always correlate to sex

1 hour ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

Again I don't have problem with transgender it's what they do. I have certain disagreements with them trying to change the current status quo like transgender restroom, now...

The funny thing about the whole trans bathroom thing is that cis people basically manufactured a problem where none previously existed

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If you sue your own kid, I think you should loose your legal guardianship over them.

 

10 minutes ago, willow said:

The funny thing about the whole trans bathroom thing is that some cis people basically manufactured a problem where none previously existed

 

FTFY

There's a small subset of any given population that likes to get up in other peoples' business. I doubt many would have cared either way, let alone even noticed, if a fuss hadn't been made over it.

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1 hour ago, willow said:

Except there are studies that back up the claim that gender and sex are developed separately, or at the very least that gender doesn't always correlate to see

--------

The funny thing about the whole trans bathroom thing is that cis people basically manufactured a problem where none previously existed

I can understand that due to social and enviromental factors people will soon develop their gender but telling us that some people was "born" in the wrong gender is rather stupid. where is the genetic evidence of this?

---------

Regardless.. There are still people who pursue third gender restrooms so the case still stands

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8 hours ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

What I see is one side forcing one side to accept the other, both are equally wrong.

Also I'm not transphobic but there is no physical proof that people are misgendered from birth. If these people like to think they're in the wrong gender... that's perfectly fine but to bend the truth to spare the feelings of others is "for me" wrong

A lot of hot air has been generated about this point, so I thought I would just paraphrase a wikipedia article. :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure

A lot of researchers consider gender dysphoria to result from sexually dimorphic brain structures (parts of the brain that differ between men and women) undergoing the 'wrong' developmental pathway.
Differences in brain structure between men and women become apparent as they grow up, and it is thought that the maturation pathway of the brain is at least in part pre-determined by foetal hormone levels.
If this idea was right, it would mean that transgendered people's condition is determined prenatally.

Brain structure can be modified in adult life, depending on experience, so a small number of scientists have argued that experiences in one's upbringing determine gender identity. How can we tell which hypothesis is right?

It turns out that the ratios of the lengths of the fingers is a good measure of prenatal hormone exposure, and that this also varies in a distinct fashion between trans and cis people, whereby trans people have ratios much more like their gender identity than their physical gender.

This is consistent with at least a large amount of transgender people's condition being the result of a prenatal hormone imbalance, which prompts their brains to develop as if they belong to the opposite gender, resulting in the mismatch of external genitals and gender identity.
 

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13 hours ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

I'm a right. I can be conservative yet be tolerant.

also being nice is subjective, if they're a transgender and is whiny little bitch, then they don't deserve my respect

The amount of times people here bashed me for "misgendering" people when it was just an honest mistake

Depends what you mean by "whiny little bitch", someone politely saying to you what gender you are is one thing, while a tumblr-tier dumbass who shrieks that their bank account shouldnt have their gender on it and throws a fit is another.

I know plenty of trans people who wont go out of their way to correct people if they dont pass or try to pass, they just let it pass and live their life until they get to that point where they can.

Any people who are physically aware and socially aware of life arent going to be making any obnoxious demands for their snowflake complexes

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14 hours ago, Crazy Lee said:

There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats (like the dixiecrats). In fact the GOP used to be liberal, the Dems used to be conservative for the most part.

 

I know that, but there are also some who exist that are part of either party that still lean conservative or liberal. Unfortunately, you say that you are a republican that's socially liberal (i.e. support transgender rights, etc), and you'll get a mouthful of piss from the far right. 

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12 hours ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

I can understand that due to social and enviromental factors people will soon develop their gender but telling us that some people was "born" in the wrong gender is rather stupid. where is the genetic evidence of this?

If one looks to genetic evidence for every issue that appears in biology, one would quickly find themselves lost and without answer. A human biologist, for example, would have difficulty finding a gene that explains my ability to speak English rather than Xhosa. My genes do predispose me to an ability to use language, but which language I use is entirely the result of sociocultural factors.

As that is as it is, one would have to provide a clear definition of gender to decide whether or not genetic observations are needed to evidence anything.

One might use the definition used by the American Psychological Association, where "Gender refers to the attitudes, feelings and behaviors that a given culture associates with a person's biological sex." One might also consider where the American Medical Association notes, "Gender includes more than sex and serves as a cultural indicator of a person’s personal and social identity."

While genes may play a role in the development of the other factors mentioned, it is true that both the APA and AMA associate gender most directly with sociocultural factors. Because of this, one would find it impossible to find genes that result in the cultural and societal conditions that create gender, and one cannot develop a gender.

It is important to note, though, that gender is treated as a separate issue from gender identity, gender expression, and gender dysphoria by the APA and AMA. According to the APA, gender identity, gender expression, and gender dysphoria are

  • "a person’s deeply‐felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or male; a girl, a woman, or female; or an alternative gender that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics,"
  • "the presentation of an individual, including physical appearance, clothing choice and accessories, and behaviors that express aspects of gender identity or role," and
  • "discomfort or distress related to incongruence between a person’s gender identity, sex assigned at birth, and/or primary and secondary sex characteristics."

Of the three, gender identity and gender dysphoria are very likely to result from biological factors, and one can develop both a gender identity and gender expression. Because of this, I assume you mean to use gender expression when you say "their gender" and gender dysphoria when you say "'born' in the wrong gender."

In noting that, I would argue that conditions of identity and expression don't need a genetic cause to be observed and recognized. I don't believe there has been a specific genotype identified that always predisposes one to a love of pears or a genotype that always predisposes one to schizophrenia, but I'm pretty sure both are treated as real and worth acting on.

If you insist, though, you could find whether or not such evidence exists by jumping onto Google, talking to your doctor, talking to any psychologists you know, reading through the information the APA and AMA have on it, grabbing a psychology text from your local library, grabbing a human biology text from your local library, or any number of other ways.

From experience, I'm pretty sure they would all tell you that all conditions impacting identity and/or expression are highly influenced by genetic factors, and sociocultural factors often serve as triggers rather than causes.

tl;dr: The people who provide and present such evidence use those words differently, and why genetic evidence - or even any evidence at all? Does lack of evidence for your assertion mean it isn't a thing?

Quote

“It was brought to my knowledge that my son [sic] began receiving hormone replacement treatments from Park Nicollet Health Services to transition from male to female, with medical assistance paying for this.

This is how wars get started.

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1 hour ago, MalletFace said:

-Snip-

Fine. I can accept the fact that there are studies that supports prenatal misgender but what I'm gathering they're currently all hypothesis. Call me a cunt or whatever but I remain skeptical until no conclusive study shows otherwise. Also with this brought to light, I have mixed feelings about these so called "studies". It's like these studies are aimed to find out the factors causing transgenders. such study would lead conservatives to believe that there are controllable variables to trangenderism and homosexuality

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1 hour ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

Fine. I can accept the fact that there are studies that supports prenatal misgender but what I'm gathering they're currently all hypothesis. Call me a cunt or whatever but I remain skeptical until no conclusive study shows otherwise. Also with this brought to light, I have mixed feelings about these so called "studies". It's like these studies are aimed to find out the factors causing transgenders. such study would lead conservatives to believe that there are controllable variables to trangenderism and homosexuality

Any cure for homosexuality would also reveal the cure to heterosexuality.

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