Flag-Burning: Should it be illegal in the US?

[Fossa]

Well, it didn't take long for this 'issue' to roll around again, despite it having been held a constitutional right in the US for a citizen to burn their flag by the US Supreme Court. 

"Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag - if they do, there must be consequences - perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail!"-Donald Trump, Nov. 29, 2016.

Never-mind that this would violate the 1st, 5th and 8th amendments of the constitution.

Even Scalia supported the idea as a form of free speech. It's hard for me to fathom the sheer lunacy I'm seeing from the incoming administration; I'm expecting more of the same.

"From his perch on the bench, Scalia deftly revealed the contradiction at the heart of Texas’ argument: The government asserted that it banned flag desecration not as a means of censorship, but to preserve its status as a national symbol; Scalia pointed out that its status as a national symbol is precisely why its desecration is such a powerful, and protected, form of expression." -Via Slate

More detail, via NYT

(I figure with all the personal drama, maybe we can switch to political, again, for some variety)

[Hux]

I only care about muh second amendment.

Let's see them try to stop me from burning a flag while I'm flashing my AR-15 butt-ass naked and covered in my own shit.

Cum at me fggtz.

I can do anything with muh second amendment. I can walk naked through a mosque while burning a Quran as long as I have a piece.

I can fuck your mammy's corpse at her funeral and everyone would be powerless to stop me unless they also value muh second amendment.

I want to see some ancaps in this thread.

 

I guess my point is that the second amendment is the only one that matters. The rest are just dumb, meaningless bullshit. Violence is the only thing keeping Uncle Sam from taking me to dinner, telling me I'm pretty, bringing me back his place and violently impaling me with his cock, ie rape.

 

/CONCENTRARED AUTISM

[Vallium]

Lets make it illegal to burn a piece of cloth because it offends me that it represents the thing I like which you dont like

...not to mention people have various reasons for burning said cloths, like a respectful mourning loss of veterans

[littlerock]

But burning the flag is the only acceptable 'retirement' method for disposing of old flags? So, uh. We just expected to leave thousands of shitty flags laying around in boxes? I'mma protest this by burning a flag. That'll do.

[Dr. Doggo]

flags should be partially made with a compound that turns into a noxious gas when exposed to heat

that'll be hilarious

[Fossa]

15 minutes ago, littlerock said:

We just expected to leave thousands of shitty flags laying around in boxes? I'mma protest this by burning a flag. That'll do.

Somehow, I can't get this image out of my head, of this government run flag-storage warehouse, full of all our old, shitty flags.

 

[Hux]

19 minutes ago, Sir Gibby said:

flags should be partially made with a compound that turns into a noxious gas when exposed to heat

that'll be hilarious

Then you'll have another gender queer black muslim communist with asthma applying for disability welfare.

Just soak flags in Zyklon B

[Zeke]

Flag burning's protected by the First Amendment since it is seen as a form of protest.. So if you want to get rid of that, you'd have to do away with the First Amendment, or at least the parts that prohibit different forms of protest and expression. 

Besides, most American flags you purchase are made in China, save for the ones on government property, given to active duty military, or given to grieving families of military or veterans. 

[Osrik]

Beyond the fact that most flag-burning is done by veterans to retire old or worn flags (I used to help with it as part of my Boy Scout troop), the idea that the sanctity of a symbol is of greater importance that a citizen's freedom of expression goes strongly against the idea of individual freedoms in a democratic society.

While I tend to disagree with how readily many will burn flags as a sign of protest for even minor perceived wrongs, flag burning is a legitimate exercise of one's freedom of expression to criticize one's government, displaying a dissatisfaction with its actions and possibly the wider society as a whole. Making such action illegal would be to say that government symbols are more sacred to the country than an individual's freedom of expression, and could signal a dangerous beginning to a clamping down on a citizen's ability to criticize their government.

So, even if you don't agree with the specific form of protest (which in most cases, i don't), it is important that it remains open as a form of protest in regards to maintaining a citizen's ability to criticize their government.

 

[Conker]

No.

[Saxon]

Flag burning is the primary means by which the Boyscouts of America dispose of flags.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/Resources/DisplayingtheFlag/07.aspx

I find some people's emotional attachment to flags confusing. I always viewed artists and politcos' flag burning as a boring cliché, a tired-out trope that upsets nobody, like burning bras.
It was not until I was a teenager that I appreciated some countries invested significant emotion in whatever crazy pattern their country has chosen to represent itself.

Flag burning's protected by the First Amendment since it is seen as a form of protest.. So if you want to get rid of that, you'd have to do away with the First Amendment, or at least the parts that prohibit different forms of protest. 

Besides, most American flags you purchase are made in China, save for the ones on government property, given to active duty military, or given to grieving families of military or veterans. 

I think Donald's comments about wanting to place mosques under surveillance, and wanting to make protest illegal, probably indicate that he doesn't value the first amendment very much anyway.

I think that a lot of people who say they love the constitution are supporters of the second amendment, but often care much less about the other amendments.

 

 

 

 

[Zeke]

1 minute ago, Saxon said:

I find some people's emotional attachment to flags confusing. I always viewed artists and politcos' flag burning as a boring cliché, a tired-out trope that upsets nobody, like burning bras.

Apparently, it upsets extremely loyal patriots who wouldn't mind sacrificing their freedom of speech if it meant "putting those unpatriotic libtards behind bars" for burning the cloth. 

[Saxon]

Just now, Zeke said:

Apparently, it upsets extremely loyal patriots who wouldn't mind sacrificing their freedom of speech if it meant "putting those unpatriotic libtards behind bars" for burning the cloth. 

Burn a Koran wrapped in the American flag and the ultimate paradox will ensue. 

[Zeke]

3 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I think Donald's comments about wanting to place mosques under surveillance, and wanting to make protest illegal, probably indicate that he doesn't value the first amendment very much anyway.

 

Probably not, and people who are blindly loyal do not care as long as they benefit from his policies while he is in office.

2 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Burn a Koran wrapped in the American flag and the ultimate paradox will ensue. 

Dividing by zero?

[Jtrekkie]

It sometimes occurs that the husk outlives the pith. That is what has occurred in this situation.

As for the offense of the thing, such displays have always been cheap on their own, and "discourse" has of late been reduced to mud slinging anyway. Flags are supposed to symbolize a host of ideals (and it probably means different things to different sides), so desicrating them is less of a coherent, pointed protest and more of an attack, which is pretty annoying since there's not much to retaliate against.

[ArielMT]

Showing disrespect to an important and well-respected symbol is never a smart thing to do without an easily justifiable reason, and rightly so in my book, but it must never be made something illegal to do.

Making it illegal to burn the national flag (or to desecrate it in any other way) would only serve to show the nation as so weak it can't survive the disrespect of an otherwise-worthless thing merely symbolizing it.

On another note relating to His Orangeness, I can't think of any crime at all, not even treason, for which a punishment is loss of US citizenship.

[MalletFace]

No; though, should it become illegal, I guess I will burn my first flag.

40 minutes ago, ArielMT said:

On another note relating to His Orangeness, I can't think of any crime at all, not even treason, for which a punishment is loss of US citizenship.

There is no revocation of citizenship for those born in or of the states unless they request it themselves.

There is, however, a precedent for revoking the citizenship of naturalized citizens that join subversive groups such as Americans for Peace, the Civil Rights Congress, and Al Qaeda.

[DevilishlyHandsome49]

Ahhh, this gonna be a fun 4 years

[Toshabi]

Why do libtards always resort to burning things when they throw a tantrum? First the American flag, then trashcans, now New balance shoes? Don't let kids play with matches

[Zaraphayx]

5 hours ago, Hux said:

I only care about muh second amendment.

Let's see them try to stop me from burning a flag while I'm flashing my AR-15 butt-ass naked and covered in my own shit.

Cum at me fggtz.

I can do anything with muh second amendment. I can walk naked through a mosque while burning a Quran as long as I have a piece.

I can fuck your mammy's corpse at her funeral and everyone would be powerless to stop me unless they also value muh second amendment.

I want to see some ancaps in this thread.

 

I guess my point is that the second amendment is the only one that matters. The rest are just dumb, meaningless bullshit. Violence is the only thing keeping Uncle Sam from taking me to dinner, telling me I'm pretty, bringing me back his place and violently impaling me with his cock, ie rape.

 

/CONCENTRARED AUTISM

This but unironically

[LadyRadarEars]

I believe that people have the same right to burn the flag as they do to burn bibles, qurans, or effigies of [Insert Current Atheist Prophet Celebrity Here].

If anything burning the flag isn't all that disrespectful, as the only way to appropriately dispose of an old US flag is to cut the stars from the stripes and then burn both pieces. Most don't do that kind of flag disposal ceremony anymore though.

[MalletFace]

2 minutes ago, Shill Sham said:

Flag burning shall remain legal and protected by the First Amendment.

A slight majority of Americans favor an amendment that allows Congress to criminalize flag burning and excludes flag burning from First Amendment protections, the amendment has nearly gone through Congress several times, and we are approaching the number of states required to ratify an amendment that hold favorable opinions towards such an amendment.

It isn't actually outside the realm of possibility at this point.

[Strongbob]

The entire flag burning controversy is nothing but political distraction.  Everyone look over here while I try and make something illegal that will literally effect no ones life except for those few charged with the burning.  That way the politicians can seem like they are doing important work while the puppet masters rob us all.  Don't get distracted by games.  If it lights, let it burn, especially if it's a giant goat.  

[Troj]

20 minutes ago, LadyRadarEars said:

I believe that people have the same right to burn the flag as they do to burn bibles, qurans, or effigies of [Insert Current Atheist Prophet Celebrity Here].

As do I, but I am much more concerned about book-burning, because as Heinrich Heine said, where they burn books, they eventually burn people. Book burning says, "These ideas must be suppressed."

Privileging symbols above the rights and lives of people in contrast, is idolatry of the most deranged and dangerous sort.

My sense is that slavish adulation of the American flag actually spits in the face of what the flag really represents.

[MalletFace]

19 minutes ago, Strongbob said:

The entire flag burning controversy is nothing but political distraction.

An amendment that changes the function of the Bill of Rights - untouched outside of its expansion to application within the states - is quite the distraction.

[LadyRadarEars]

7 minutes ago, Troj said:

As do I, but I am much more concerned about book-burning, because as Heinrich Heine said, where they burn books, they eventually burn people. Book burning says, "These ideas must be suppressed."

Privileging symbols above the rights and lives of people in contrast, is idolatry of the most deranged and dangerous sort.

My sense is that slavish adulation of the American flag actually spits in the face of what the flag really represents.

Symbolically burning a single book because you believe that the religion (and the nations that follow it theocratically) it represents are reprehensible and evil is different from having a book burning barbecue where you make a giant bonfire in the middle of a clearing, though.

[Gator]

ily donald but plz shut your mouth sometimes hun it's embarrassing

 

[Troj]

1 hour ago, LadyRadarEars said:

Symbolically burning a single book because you believe that the religion (and the nations that follow it theocratically) it represents are reprehensible and evil is different from having a book burning barbecue where you make a giant bonfire in the middle of a clearing, though.

Eh, sure, but for my money, I'd rather sketch chibi Muhammad riding Waddles.

[Cingal]

Donald is in the pocket of Big Flag.

[ArielMT]

2 hours ago, Shill Sham said:

You're right, there is no crime that can result in a person losing their citizenship.  This matter was already settled in 1954 with Trop V. Dulles

Now President-elect Spray Tan could potentially appoint enough sympathetic justices that the Supreme Court can start overruling earlier decisions.  Though that is a whole other issue.

True.  And if anyone doubts that, just look up the Supreme Court case Dred Scott v. John F. A. Sandford.

2 hours ago, MalletFace said:

A slight majority of Americans favor an amendment that allows Congress to criminalize flag burning and excludes flag burning from First Amendment protections, the amendment has nearly gone through Congress several times, and we are approaching the number of states required to ratify an amendment that hold favorable opinions towards such an amendment.

It isn't actually outside the realm of possibility at this point.

Interestingly, the most recent attempt was Senate Joint Resolution 12 of the 109th Congress (S.J.Res 12, paired with H.J.Res 10), a bill co-sponsored by one Senator Hillary Clinton.

[ArielMT]

3 hours ago, DevilishlyHandsome49 said:

Ahhh, this gonna be a fun 4 years

Just think how fun it'll be come January if enough of the EC's electors don't vote for Trump.

[Jtrekkie]

2 hours ago, Troj said:

As do I, but I am much more concerned about book-burning, because as Heinrich Heine said, where they burn books, they eventually burn people. Book burning says, "These ideas must be suppressed."

 

 

To play the advocate, destroying icons is no less malicious. The only difference is that the ideas themselves must be found elsewhere. And just as with books, their ideas can be found within people.

[Toshabi]

3 minutes ago, Jtrekkie said:

 

 

To play the advocate, destroying icons is no less malicious. The only difference is that the ideas themselves must be found elsewhere. And just as with books, their ideas can be found within people.

I wanna say the people burning shit really don't have the spine to do anything more than that. And the ones that do end up acting out on the violent impulses are quick to get shot down. Metaphorically and literally. 

[Fossa]

I almost forgot of that era where they had these huge burnings of Harry Potter books, because, the devil, I guess.

Photo: The congregation of Christ Community Church in Alamogordo, New Mexico, burned Harry Potter books by J. K. Rowling and the supernatural novels of Stephen King, along with CDs and other items deemed to be “the work of the devil”, in December 2011.(KOS)

~

On an ironic note: I imagine these same people would, though, want flag burning to be illegal.

I don't really see the point in burning things to express an opinion, but I don't think it should be illegal. Unless it starts a forest fire, or something. Good thing this Church appears to be a desert-like Breaking Bad sorta place.

[Jtrekkie]

@Fossa-Boy, I remember that, even. There have been some exceedingly uncool happenings in Alamogordo, hence many over-reactions. 

Depending on who you ask.

 

@Toshabi, all you have to do is get enough people behind an idea and they don't need spine.

[Xaende]

9 hours ago, littlerock said:

But burning the flag is the only acceptable 'retirement' method for disposing of old flags? So, uh. We just expected to leave thousands of shitty flags laying around in boxes? I'mma protest this by burning a flag. That'll do.

Exactly. I plan to burn mine when it gets too faded and needs replacing. He probably isn't talking about that, though.

[Fossa]

1 minute ago, Jtrekkie said:

I remember that, even. There have been some exceedingly uncool happenings in Alamogordo, hence many over-reactions. 

Depending on who you ask.

Huh. And here I associated New Mexico with New Age gurus, shamans, dream-catchers, magic mushrooms, UFOs, magic crystals, and crystal meth! I wonder where Alamogordo is. It is a huge fire, there.

[Jtrekkie]

15 minutes ago, Fossa-Boy said:

Huh. And here I associated New Mexico with New Age gurus, shamans, dream-catchers, magic mushrooms, UFOs, magic crystals, and crystal meth! I wonder where Alamogordo is. It is a huge fire, there.

That would be Roswell and Santa Fe. Most of New Mexico is agricultural, but we also have the most PhDs per capita, owing to tech and research. Alamogordo itself is in the South, near White Sands (not terribly far from the Trinity Site.) Today it houses some of the staff of the missile range and some Luftwaffe pilots being trained on Tornados.

 

Also, that is a tiny fire.

[FenrirDarkWolf]

No!

They're fucking expensive!!!

:v

[WileyWarWeasel]

A true American flag will never burn, only get singed.

[Saxon]

I agree with other people that politics has become so muddied with manufactured controversies that it is difficult to tell what is a sincere issue and what is a decoy that politicians hope will distract us from the passage of undesirable laws. 

Even people in warzones are not above using those kinds of tactics; the Iraqi government recently realised people were preoccupied with Mosul...so they decided to ban beer for being 'unislamic', because nobody would notice when ISIS is beheading civilians.

[Zeke]

People burning effigies is a political pastime in the US. From books to flags, to religious symbols, to effigies of US presidents.

10 hours ago, Fossa-Boy said:

I almost forgot of that era where they had these huge burnings of Harry Potter books, because, the devil, I guess.

Photo: The congregation of Christ Community Church in Alamogordo, New Mexico, burned Harry Potter books by J. K. Rowling and the supernatural novels of Stephen King, along with CDs and other items deemed to be “the work of the devil”, in December 2011.(KOS)

~

On an ironic note: I imagine these same people would, though, want flag burning to be illegal.

I don't really see the point in burning things to express an opinion, but I don't think it should be illegal. Unless it starts a forest fire, or something. Good thing this Church appears to be a desert-like Breaking Bad sorta place.

 

There were also mass record burnings in the midwest, too back in the early/late 70's.

14 hours ago, ArielMT said:

Showing disrespect to an important and well-respected symbol is never a smart thing to do without an easily justifiable reason, and rightly so in my book, but it must never be made something illegal to do.

Making it illegal to burn the national flag (or to desecrate it in any other way) would only serve to show the nation as so weak it can't survive the disrespect of an otherwise-worthless thing merely symbolizing it.

On another note relating to His Orangeness, I can't think of any crime at all, not even treason, for which a punishment is loss of US citizenship.

 

Maybe Lord Cheeto and the Fat Korean dictator of the north could become friends. :V

[Faust]

34 minutes ago, Zeke said:

People burning effigies is a political pastime in the US. From books to flags, to religious symbols, to effigies of US presidents.

In the UK we call it 'Bonfire Night'

Burn those flags, America! Burn them! ALLLL of them! You only need the one so that you can march into the Olympic games under it.

...I mean seriously, you guys swear allegiance to the damn thing. It's a bit of fabric for crying out loud. If it grew a mouth and started bossing you about, would you have to obey it? What next, should the Scots swear allegiance to their kilts and treat farting as a bad omen? "Och hoots, man! Me tartan is talking! It's a siiiiiign!"

Ahem. Ugh. Ok I think I went a bit overboard then.

Wait. No. I've got a better idea. Ban flag-burning. If you get pissed off with the government, burn the president instead.

[willow]

No, for reasons already stated.

At this point, if literally every form of peaceful protest (sitting/kneeling, marching, etc.) is going to be ignored or still met with tear gas and rubber bullets, flag burning is the next logical step. At some point people will actually consider why these things are happening instead of passing it off as people not getting their way 

14 hours ago, LadyRadarEars said:

Symbolically burning a single book because you believe that the religion (and the nations that follow it theocratically) it represents are reprehensible and evil is different from having a book burning barbecue where you make a giant bonfire in the middle of a clearing, though.

I'd argue that they're not really that different. They tend to both serve a pretty symbolic purpose. 

As much as I don't like the Bible, I think burning it is still a huge disrespect to Christians. I believe it's much more healthy to criticise it heavily rather than destroy it

[Faust]

21 minutes ago, Sylver said:

Bonus 'murica points if you have a flag pole.

Is that the Polish guy that makes all the flags? He must be rolling in it!

[Troj]

3 hours ago, Zeke said:

Maybe Lord Cheeto and the Fat Korean dictator of the north could become friends. :V

...and Poots MaGoots makes three.

As much as narcissistic megalomaniacs can be friends with anyone, at least.

Oh, and JTtrekkie, true. I think two of the major determining considerations here are who's currently in power, and how ubiquitous or numerous the symbol, icon, or object in question is.

If we take a stand against the destruction of a symbol or icon, it should be because we fear the loss or destruction of the valuable or precious ideas, knowledge, memories, or feelings encapsulated or represented by the symbol or icon, and not because we see the symbol or icon as representing something "sacred" or "holy" that is beyond reproach.

[ArielMT]

11 hours ago, Fossa-Boy said:

Huh. And here I associated New Mexico with New Age gurus, shamans, dream-catchers, magic mushrooms, UFOs, magic crystals, and crystal meth! I wonder where Alamogordo is. It is a huge fire, there.

Alamogordo is in the "way too close to Texas" part of the state.

[DrDingo]

Even if burning a flag makes you a dick, being a dick isn't illegal and it never should be

[MalletFace]

1 hour ago, Sylver said:

Out of curiosity, who here owns a flag? Bonus 'murica points if you have a flag pole.

I don't have a full-sized U.S. flag, but I have a drawer full of miniature flags they hand out everywhere.

Those probably wouldn't burn well, though. Bit of a sad protest to burn those. So sad, in fact, it might ought to be illegal.

[DrGravitas]

My flags consist of miniature ones that some real estate agent in my neighborhood keeps sticking in our yards (with their business card attached) every 4th of July or so.

 

They also give everyone a small pumpkin and pumpkin pie recipe around Halloween...

EDIT: Oh, and I voted no and am depressed that this issue coming is back up again for the hundredth time.