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Feeding your pet vegan food is bullshit


Nova
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So i have read that there are people who food their pet like only vegan food but thats dumb. I mean pets like cats and dogs.

First off all its not healthy for the animals. Animals eat fruits or plants sometimes but not the whole time. They could end up blind or have bone problems.

Also if these people want to feed their animals vegan than these idiots should have bought guine pigs or rabbits instead.

You can't just give a cat or dog something to eat that they aren't supposed to.

 

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Solution: Feed your pets vegan food.

When I say that, what I actually mean is feed your pets food made out of vegans. I fed my dog a diet of vegans for many moons and he is strong like anus of inner-city prostitute. He is the uberhund. Powerful like Boulder rolling downhill.

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16 minutes ago, Saxon said:

To be honest, I find the entire notion of owning pets weird anyway.

I have a pet to keep me company. Why not a girlfriend? Because pets are driven by basic animal instincts. It's part of their charm. They don't lie, have ulterior agendas, offend you and you don't need to mind about hurting their emotions. All you really need is some basic conditioning and a will to love them and take care of their needs and they'll love you back in their own adorable way

As for OP, my dogs is a class A carnivore and won't succumb to eating carrots and such. I tried, she rejects them (but does lick the gravy from leftover veggies) 

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I feel like the GIF in your signature was pretty much your IRL reaction to when you found out about this.

17 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

I've seen this happen.

Vegan woman: I only feed my cat vegan food

Me: but...cats are obligate carnivores. They HAVE to have meat in their diet!

Vegan woman: That's a myth, NOTHING is an obligate carnivore! 

Yep, I've seen it too. Unfortunately in my case, people weren't able to convince the owners and I think they continued to feed their pet a vegan diet.

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6 hours ago, Saxon said:

To be honest, I find the entire notion of owning pets weird anyway.

Yeah but...owning a pet is inherently good for the animal, even though most people get them for companionship after providing their needs for life. But intentionally harming the health of the animal is not just weird, but awful.

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4 hours ago, Red Lion said:

I've seen this happen.

Vegan woman: I only feed my cat vegan food

Me: but...cats are obligate carnivores. They HAVE to have meat in their diet!

Vegan woman: That's a myth, NOTHING is an obligate carnivore! 

Poor cat

 

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5 hours ago, Wax said:

Yep, I've seen it too. Unfortunately in my case, people weren't able to convince the owners and I think they continued to feed their pet a vegan diet.

how is this kind of thing not grounds to have the animals taken away

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5 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Yeah but...owning a pet is inherently good for the animal, even though most people get them for companionship after providing their needs for life. But intentionally harming the health of the animal is not just weird, but awful.

I'm not sure, because most pets come from inbred stocks, and there are many practices I consider pretty horrible, like chopping off their genitals, ears and tails.

Like...I feel that people feeding animals shit diets is the tip of the vast immoral ice berg here.

 

43 minutes ago, Shiro said:

I don't get why people even resort to veganism in the first place. All I can think is, congratulations, you're depriving yourself and your pet of essential nutrients. Life's too short to limit your diet like that.

In my opinion the most reasonable grounds for being a vegan would also lead one not to buy any pets; a considerable reduction in one's carbon footprint. (a dog has a bigger carbon footprint than a 4x4 car)

But other people are also vegans for various other reasons that I would personally consider weak justifications, such as a disdain for industrial scale livestock treatment, or for religious grounds.

 

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This reminds me of the type of idiocy people use when declawing their pets.

What people don't understand is dying is a part of life, and that meat has to go somewhere.

Do I wish that the western countries (USA) reduced their meet depencies so that there would be less routine loss of life and that they only used more moral methods (We only have open range cattle in oklahoma, none of those disgusting feedlot pens), but you know meat tastes good for humand, is neccesary for dogs and cats, and is what it is.

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1 hour ago, Johanna Waya said:

We only have open range cattle in oklahoma, none of those disgusting feedlot pens

 

Yes you do, you have some of the biggest. And all of the cattle on them are open range; open range cattle are the industry standard. Raising cattle on a lot is prohibitevly expensive, unhealthy, and more recently illegal. The only good reason try that I can think of is if there was either a lack of land or the land wasn't arable.

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10 hours ago, Johanna Waya said:

This reminds me of the type of idiocy people use when declawing their pets.

What people don't understand is dying is a part of life, and that meat has to go somewhere.

Do I wish that the western countries (USA) reduced their meet depencies so that there would be less routine loss of life and that they only used more moral methods (We only have open range cattle in oklahoma, none of those disgusting feedlot pens), but you know meat tastes good for humand, is neccesary for dogs and cats, and is what it is.

First of all, I think everybody understands that living things die, so I am calling bullshit

But reading further...This is a very weird justification. Humans breed livestock in order to satisfy a demand for their flesh. It is a synthetic food chain, over which we have total control, rather than unavoidable part of life. 

The synthetic ecosystem that we have contrived to support ourselves has a gigantic carbon footprint and often requires damaging natural ecosystems, in order to make room for the land that we require. It is hence not difficult to see why there is a very good justification for reducing the amount of agriculturally intensive products we make.

We don't need to feed dogs and cats vegan diets to accomplish this- we can just breed fewer dogs and cats. There is an incredibly hypocrisy exhibited in this thread that people will empathise 'oh that poor cat' when they hear it is fed an unsuitable meal. However, when I talk to people who have had their animal's genitals surgically removed, its tail and ears cropped, and so forth, they almost invariably answer 'oh he doesn't mind'. This is a fantastic double standard.
The real ethical issue is actually owning unnecessary animals for human amusement in the first place, because it is outrageously decadent that human beings still starve in a world where we farm cattle to feed our pets.

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These vegans sound like the sort you see buying from holland and barret and lush. Another reason I boycott lush.

Making your dog go vegan is going to make him anaemic.

Making your go vegan and they will go blind and die since for some reason they can't make taurine themselves and get it from food. 

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@Lopaw @Nova

I decided to look this up, because nobody else seems to have posted any sources so far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_food#Vegetarian_or_vegan_food
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_food#Alternative_dog_food

Evidently commercially available vegan or vegetarian dog and cat foods are fortified with essential nutrients like taurine, and are approved by food control officials. So this whole thread turns out to be a non-issue, provided vegans purchase commercially available feeds that are nutritionally approved.

I suppose this means @Vitaly @Red Lion @Wax @WolfNightV4X1 @Yarra @Revates @Gator and @Shiro are all wrong, and did not take any time to check whether their opinions were supported before, in some cases, deciding that pets should be removed from their owners.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Saxon said:

I'm not sure, because most pets come from inbred stocks, and there are many practices I consider pretty horrible, like chopping off their genitals, ears and tails.

Like...I feel that people feeding animals shit diets is the tip of the vast immoral ice berg here.

 

In my opinion the most reasonable grounds for being a vegan would also lead one not to buy any pets; a considerable reduction in one's carbon footprint. (a dog has a bigger carbon footprint than a 4x4 car)

But other people are also vegans for various other reasons that I would personally consider weak justifications, such as a disdain for industrial scale livestock treatment, or for religious grounds.

 

I still dont get your concept that neutering is a bad practice...perhaps vasectomy is a better option and should be more widespread, but overall its helped decrease animal populations, specifically for pet owners who are less responsible and would needlessly let their pets breed on accident, or let their dog escape. Its good for the overall health of the pet community, and makes it so less unwanted animals are killed. It's certainly the moral higher ground over circumcision

Admittedly the pet industry has a bunch of bad breeding practices and standards, as much as docking is unnesscessary its also a painless cosmetic action akin to piercing or other strange cosmetic appearances that even humans do to themselves, I would consider that the tip of the immoral iceberg as opposed to other pet breeding practices like puppy mills and backyard breederd

1 hour ago, Saxon said:

@Lopaw @Nova

I suppose this means @Vitaly @Red Lion @Wax @WolfNightV4X1 @Yarra @Revates @Gator and @Shiro are all wrong, and did not take any time to check whether their opinions were supported before, in some cases, deciding that pets should be removed from their owners.

 

 

I did not, but I was invested in responding to the thread the claim that vegans fed their animals non-nutritional products, if that were the case then that would be an issue...I've never met a vegan but if they explained they fed their animals commercial products proper for their diet, vegan or not, it's a non issue.

I never advocated for them to have their animals taken away either, just that their actions were harmful and they should be educated if that were the case

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4 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

/snip/

I think Gator was the only person who said he wanted pets to be taken away from people who feed their pets a vegan diet.

Anyway, my perspective on neutering is that, if the only convenient way for me to own an animal would require its genitals to be cut off, then you know, I'd rather not own an animal to begin with.
I also think circumcision is immoral, but I feel this is a different discussion.

I think the main problem with the pet industry is that many pets are descended from inbred stock, which condemns many animals to horrible lives full of health complaints.

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3 hours ago, Saxon said:

The real ethical issue is actually owning unnecessary animals for human amusement in the first place, because it is outrageously decadent that human beings still starve in a world where we farm cattle to feed our pets.

Its human nature to care for things, people even cite animals as children. Animals like dogs tend to have similar tendencies of behavior and community with humans, so people see similaries in companionship with them. 

Besides that pet ownership isnt just for the rich, people in poverty and other countries may still sometimes keep pets and feed them scraps, or train them to do a necessary action to help them survive. Its widely a historical component no matter what, pets arent going to go away so what should is how people treat them poorly

 

2 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I think Gator was the only person who said he wanted pets to be taken away from people who feed their pets a vegan diet.

Anyway, my perspective on neutering is that, if the only convenient way for me to own an animal would require its genitals to be cut off, then you know, I'd rather not own an animal to begin with.
I also think circumcision is immoral, but I feel this is a different discussion.

I think the main problem with the pet industry is that many pets are descended from inbred stock, which condemns many animals to horrible lives full of health complaints.

Understood, and I think thats a good opinion, if I knew about that years ago Id feel less bad that we never fixed our animals, and we havent had animals run off. Its just fixed in modern society that fixing is the responsible thing to do. That said though vasectomies are a healthier option if someone is going to own a male dog and it should be highly advocated more if thats the case

 

...that is a huge issue sadly and hopefully with raised awareness in years time those can be remedied

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3 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Its human nature to care for things, people even cite animals as children. Animals like dogs tend to have similar tendencies of behavior and community with humans, so people see similaries in companionship with them.

I don't recall parents wanting their kids genitals destroyed or ears clipped (ok barring some fringe cultures, whatever).

If the reason for destroying their reproductive abilities is to ostensibly stop them from breeding out of control then I question the wisdom of having them as a pet in the first place or importing animals that are destructive for local species.

 

6 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Besides that pet ownership isnt just for the rich, people in poverty and other countries may still sometimes keep pets and feed them scraps, or train them to do a necessary action to help them survive. Its widely a historical component no matter what, pets arent going to go away so what should is how people treat them poorly

Having an animal trained to perform necessary tasks is quite different to having one for your own amusement.

 

19 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I think the main problem with the pet industry is that many pets are descended from inbred stock, which condemns many animals to horrible lives full of health complaints.

Unfortunately it seems that many potential owners (if they can afford it) prefer to go for specific breeds rather than mixtures of many breeds. Good job researching the vegan food by the way ;3

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2 hours ago, Saxon said:

@Lopaw @Nova

I decided to look this up, because nobody else seems to have posted any sources so far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_food#Vegetarian_or_vegan_food
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_food#Alternative_dog_food

Evidently commercially available vegan or vegetarian dog and cat foods are fortified with essential nutrients like taurine, and are approved by food control officials. So this whole thread turns out to be a non-issue, provided vegans purchase commercially available feeds that are nutritionally approved.

I suppose this means @Vitaly @Red Lion @Wax @WolfNightV4X1 @Yarra @Revates @Gator and @Shiro are all wrong, and did not take any time to check whether their opinions were supported before, in some cases, deciding that pets should be removed from their owners.

 

 

I have some doubts that a woman who doesn't believe in the existence of obligate carnivores is actually contentious about her cats diet. 

While vegan cat food does exists it is NOT recommended by most veterinarians. The acidity of the vegetable matter in vegan cat food can lead to urinary issues, even some vegan cat food producers will suggest that you mitigate the risk to your cat by only feeding them a a PARTIALLY vegan diet. If you do feed a cat an all vegan diet you need to make sure they get as much water as possible, it's also recommended that you add a digestive enzyme product to your cat's vegan meal and keep an eye on your cat's urine PH. Just because you CAN feed your cat a vegan diet doesn't mean that it's the best option or that this is what you SHOULD do. Frankly feeding a cat vegan food is not done for the cat's benefit it's done so the owner can feel good about themselves. 

My cat can probably live off of Friskies and Meow Mix for a solid decade and be "fine", but I wouldn't dream of feeding it that garbage. It's full of synthetic taurine. Which is approved by food control officials but doesn't actually give your cat what it needs and even with regular meat based commercial cat food if you don't alternate your dry food with your wet food and change out the kind of food you buy you get cats that don't get enough protein, that don't get enough water, vitamin D or taurine. Occasionally I feed both my cat and dog a little bit of boiled boneless, skinless chicken or mix their food with a few table spoons of low-sodium beef broth. I try to keep their diet as natural and organic as I can while making sure they get what they need out of it.
 

Vegan cat food exists, however it is not the only food you should give your cat. I don't even recommend giving your cat out of the bag meat-based commercial hard food without supplementing it with other things. 

 

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1 hour ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

I don't recall parents wanting their kids genitals destroyed or ears clipped (ok barring some fringe cultures, whatever).

If the reason for destroying their reproductive abilities is to ostensibly stop them from breeding out of control then I question the wisdom of having them as a pet in the first place or importing animals that are destructive for local species.

 

Having an animal trained to perform necessary tasks is quite different to having one for your own amusement.

In a world where humans are the top species and bound to wipe out others, wild or not, I dont see an issue in humans who are aware of other animals in their environment wanting some form  of population control for their well-being. Wildlife researchers do the same thing, introducing things like wolves into yellowstone to curb the steep population of ungulates 

Humans do cruel things like genital mutilation (circumcision)and ear clipping (piercing) to children all the time, its exactly like taking care of children. In fact I'd venture to believe that more adult humans should opt to sterilize themselves into adulthood since they have awareness of population and whether or not having children is viable with the environmental standards so less accidents happen.

 

...as I stated before, pets regardless of necessary or recreational function arent going to go away, so I think its more necessary to regulate how we care for pets rather than the idea of barring people from owning them

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15 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

I have some doubts that a woman who doesn't believe in the existence of obligate carnivores is actually contentious about her cats diet. 

While vegan cat food does exists it is NOT recommended by most veterinarians. The acidity of the vegetable matter in vegan cat food can lead to urinary issues, even some vegan cat food producers will suggest that you mitigate the risk to your cat by only feeding them a a PARTIALLY vegan diet. If you do feed a cat an all vegan diet you need to make sure they get as much water as possible, it's also recommended that you add a digestive enzyme product to your cat's vegan meal and keep an eye on your cat's urine PH. Just because you CAN feed your cat a vegan diet doesn't mean that it's the best option or that this is what you SHOULD do. Frankly feeding a cat vegan food is not done for the cat's benefit it's done so the owner can feel good about themselves. 

My cat can probably live off of Friskies and Meow Mix for a solid decade and be "fine", but I wouldn't dream of feeding it that garbage. It's full of synthetic taurine. Which is approved by food control officials but doesn't actually give your cat what it needs and even with regular meat based commercial cat food if you don't alternate your dry food with your wet food and change out the kind of food you buy you get cats that don't get enough protein, that don't get enough water, vitamin D or taurine. Occasionally I feed both my cat and dog a little bit of boiled boneless, skinless chicken or mix their food with a few table spoons of low-sodium beef broth. I try to keep their diet as natural and organic as I can while making sure they get what they need out of it.
 

Vegan cat food exists, however it is not the only food you should give your cat. I don't even recommend giving your cat out of the bag meat-based commercial hard food without supplementing it with other things. 

 

Any cat that lives outside is going to be eating mice and birds anyway, to be honest.

Although this is bad too, because the effects of cats on wildlife is disasterous. People could keep their cats indoors, but...that's not fair on the cats either.

 

...and you know that this is what natural taurine looks like:

180px-Taurine_zwitterion_ball.png

Compare it to this image of synthetic taurine:

180px-Taurine_zwitterion_ball.png

 

Come on man, this whole 'synthesised chemicals are inherently worse than natural ones' stuff is just plain old pseudo-science. There's actually no chemical difference.

In a world where humans are the top species and bound to wipe out others, wild or not, I dont see an issue in humans who are aware of other animals in their environment wanting some form  of population control for their well-being. Wildlife researchers do the same thing, introducing things like wolves into yellowstone to curb the steep population of ungulates 

Humans do cruel things like genital mutilation (corcumcision)and ear clipping (piercing) to children all the time, its exactly like taking care of children. In fact I'd venture to believe that more adult humans should opt to sterilize themselves into adulthood since they have awareness of population and whether or not having children is viable with the environmental standards so less accidents happen.

 

...as I stated before, pets regardless of necessary or recreational function arent going to go away, so I think its more necessary to regulate how we care for pets rather than the idea of barring people from owning them

Woah woah woah.

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5 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Any cat that lives outside is going to be eating mice and birds anyway, to be honest.

Although this is bad too, because the effects of cats on wildlife is disasterous. People could keep their cats indoors, but...that's not fair on the cats either.

 

...and you know that this is what natural taurine looks like:

180px-Taurine_zwitterion_ball.png

Compare it to this image of synthetic taurine:

180px-Taurine_zwitterion_ball.png

 

Come on man, this whole 'synthesised chemicals are inherently worse than natural ones' stuff is just plain old pseudo-science. There's actually no chemical difference.

 

Even that aside.  ( will have to do more research into that before I make any kind of comment on synthetic vs natural) The rest still stands, dry commercial cat food, vegan and non, is not adequate to support the animal's diet on its own and with a vegan diet you have to be extra careful about your cat's urinary system, protein levels and vitamin D3. 

 

Even if synthetic taurine is completely safe I would rather avoid supplements when natural alternatives are available. 

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15 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Woah woah woah.

...Keyword optional, if youre no longer having children, you can choose to take away your ability to produce. This isnt news and is already practice among older males. In fact with RISUG (although not open to public use) this factor is even reversible, so adult males can be totally unable to reduce until they are ready to. Im not saying they MUST against their will, and naturally many people wont, but if its a common option there it can significantly reduce unwanted pregnancies

Having birthed young in general in an environment that they cannot be cared for is a bad idea, and leads to a lot of struggle

 

 

...I also would add that I dont vouch for male babies to be circumsized either, its just common cultural practice based on religious or supposed health benefits, so it does happen.

Animals arent always comparable to human children, but the way people oftentimes care for them are (a little too much humanization, sometimes)

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4 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

Even that aside.  ( will have to do more research into that before I make any kind of comment on synthetic vs natural) The rest still stands, dry commercial cat food, vegan and non, is not adequate to support the animal's diet on its own and with a vegan diet you have to be extra careful about your cat's urinary system, protein levels and vitamin D3. 

 

Even if synthetic taurine is completely safe I would rather avoid supplements when natural alternatives are available. 

Natural substances include poo, arsenic and crocodiles. Obviously being natural is not a prerequisite for being good.

Anyway, I think we may have reached a common consensus, which is that you can give your pet a vegan diet, provided that you are watchful to make sure he gets everything he needs. So we can't assume that all people who give their pets vegan diets are bad carers.

There is obviously an outstanding range of other problems with pet ownership which probably need their own discussions to address though, like inbreeding and cats' negative effects on bird populations.

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11 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Natural substances include poo, arsenic and crocodiles. Obviously being natural is not a prerequisite for being good.

Anyway, I think we may have reached a common consensus, which is that you can give your pet a vegan diet, provided that you are watchful to make sure he gets everything he needs. So we can't assume that all people who give their pets vegan diets are bad carers.

There is obviously an outstanding range of other problems with pet ownership which probably need their own discussions to address though, like inbreeding and cats' negative effects on bird populations.

good thing I don't feed my pets arsenic or crocodiles but the dog will eat poo if I don't stop him ;P

but yeah, you CAN, I don't think you SHOULD, but you can do it with a lot of work and money. Again even vegan cat food producers will suggest that a partial vegan diet is better than a 100% one but any specialist will also tell you that feeding the cat 100% dry food is bad. So poor feeding habits is not a vegan exclusive thing. Stupid comes in many brands.Granted I think about 80% of people I run into shouldn't keep pets because they're financially not capable of giving the animal proper care and they're irresponsible af. Like those idiots that get mini pigs then wonder why they have a 300 lb farm animal. Or worse, I sometimes help out at a big cat sanctuary and half the tigers and lions there come from nimrods who thought giant wild predators were good pets. BUT I DIGRESS.

I think we can agree on the overall point that pet ownership is a messy and complicated subject and there's no one right or wrong way own a cat or dog so...yay?

 

Tbh I was less upset the lady was giving her cat a vegan diet and more baffled that she denied the existence of obligate carnivores.

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6 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

good thing I don't feed my pets arsenic or crocodiles but the dog will eat poo if I don't stop him ;P

but yeah, you CAN, I don't think you SHOULD, but you can do it with a lot of work and money. Again even vegan cat food producers will suggest that a partial vegan diet is better than a 100% one but any specialist will also tell you that feeding the cat 100% dry food is bad. So poor feeding habits is not a vegan exclusive thing. Stupid comes in many brands.Granted I think about 80% of people I run into shouldn't keep pets because they're financially not capable of giving the animal proper care and they're irresponsible af. Like those idiots that get mini pigs then wonder why they have a 300 lb farm animal. Or worse, I sometimes help out at a big cat sanctuary and half the tigers and lions there come from nimrods who thought giant wild predators were good pets. BUT I DIGRESS.

I think we can agree on the overall point that pet ownership is a messy and complicated subject and there's no one right or wrong way own a cat or dog so...yay?

 

Tbh I was less upset the lady was giving her cat a vegan diet and more baffled that she denied the existence of obligate carnivores.

Given that nobody was quoting sources earlier and we ended up being wrong, could you post a couple?

And I am guessing she didn't know what the word obligate means.

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http://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats?page=2
 

Quote

The risks of feeding dogs or cats vegetarian or vegan diet include:

Inadequate total protein intake (less than the 25 grams per 1,000 calories recommended)

Imbalance of the certain amino acids, such as taurine and L-carnitine (dogs and cats) or essential fatty acids arachidonic acid (cats only), in particular

Deficiency in vitamins and minerals (such as B vitamins, calcium, phosphorus, and iron) that are obtained ideally, or only, through meat or other animal products

 

Quote

“We did see a case of a cat that almost died as a result of taurine deficiency,” says Jennifer Larsen, DVM, PhD, board-certified veterinary nutritionist and assistant professor of clinical nutrition at the University of California, Davis veterinary school. “The owners were feeding a vegan cat kibble, so a commercially available vegan diet, and they were mixing that diet with cooked chicken breast, for some reason, but it was not enough taurine for the cat, obviously, and it resulted in a near-death experience for this animal.”


http://www.vegancats.com/veganfaq.php

 

Quote

Is it true that vegancats.com is telling some people to feed their cats meat?

Yes. After much soul-searching, we have decided to change our official recommedations for certain cats.

Urinary tract problems are fairly common in cats, and because of the relative acidity of meat to vegetable protein, some vegan cats suffer from them.

Although we have been giving advice for some time on how these problems can be minimized while still feeding a completely vegan diet, we have found that many of our customers have not been following this advice. It is imperitive to feed your cat a vegan diet properly for optimal health, as not doing so may jeopardize your cat's well-being (as is the case with improper feeding on any other diet - ideal nutrition is a necessity for optimal health!)

Unless you are very committed to following the advice outlined on our site by feeding your cat a properly balanced diet as per the information below, we recommend that you mitigate the risk of urinary tract problems by feeding males cats only a 25-75% vegan diet and females a 50-100% vegan diet. Of course, many cats (both make and female) will thrive on a simple vegan diet and never have any complicatons from urinary tract infections or crystal formations, you need to be prepared to adjust the diet accordingly for cats who may be prone to such issues.

 

Quote

Because of the greater risk to males, you may want to give your cat some canned meat-based foods (a veternarian-prescribed pH balancing formula is ideal) be given along with vegan food, particularly if they have had any past history of urinary tract issues or crystal formation. Cats who have never displayed any tendencies to develop urinary tract problems can often get by with a fully vegan or nearly all-vegan diet, but you must be vigilant with males due to the urgency of needing proper care if there is blockage due to the formation of crystals in the urinary tract

This is where my "can" vs "should" senses tend to go off.

Yes, you can, and your cat may well be fine. But there's no denying this diet is ultimately riskier and harder to pull off safely than a diet that contains meat. Since you'd only feed your cat vegan food for the sake of your own ideology, an ideology a cat cannot share, I am not supportive of this diet as being the best feeding option for your cat. 
 

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3 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

http://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats?page=2
 

 


http://www.vegancats.com/veganfaq.php

 

 

This is where my "can" vs "should" senses tend to go off.

Yes, you can, and your cat may well be fine. But there's no denying this diet is ultimately riskier and harder to pull off safely than a diet that contains meat. Since you'd only feed your cat vegan food for the sake of your own ideology, an ideology a cat cannot share, I am not supportive of this diet as being the best feeding option for your cat. 
 

Woah, we just entered weird territory. Since when was a pet's participation in one's ideological beliefs a grounds for any of the various ways people treat their animals?

'I didn't used to hit my dog, because I thought it was cruel, but then I realised he didn't have a concept of human ideology'.
'I neutered my cat, but now I regret it, because he does not have a concept of over-population'.

Anyway, yeah I think you've lain out a good argument. If somebody wants to feed their cat or dog a vegan diet, they've got to be smart about it, or supplement it with meat, but a smarter thing would probably be to avoid the issue all together by not buying pets.

 

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39 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

In a world where humans are the top species and bound to wipe out others, wild or not, I dont see an issue in humans who are aware of other animals in their environment wanting some form  of population control for their well-being. Wildlife researchers do the same thing, introducing things like wolves into yellowstone to curb the steep population of ungulates 

The biosphere was doing fine before modern man appeared.

"At the time of the Roman Empire and the birth of Christ, the earth contained ∼1,000 billion tons of carbon in living biomass (10), equivalent to 35 ZJ of chemical energy, mostly in the form of trees in forests. In just the last 2,000 y, humans have reduced this by about 45% to ∼550 billion tons of carbon in biomass, equivalent to 19.2 ZJ. The loss has accelerated over time, with 11% depleted just since 1900 (Fig. 3) (11, 12). Over recent years, on average, we are harvesting—and releasing as heat and carbon dioxide—the remaining 550 billion tons of carbon in living biomass at a net rate of ∼1.5 billion tons carbon per year (13, 14)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4534254/

Yep we certainly know how to take care of the well-being of other forms of life on this planet.

 

42 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Humans do cruel things like genital mutilation (circumcision)and ear clipping (piercing) to children all the time, its exactly like taking care of children. In fact I'd venture to believe that more adult humans should opt to sterilize themselves into adulthood since they have awareness of population and whether or not having children is viable with the environmental standards so less accidents happen.

Perhaps I should've been more specific: most parents don't want their children sterilized. As for population we started going over natural carrying capacity around 9000BC when we began agriculture, if not earlier.

To say that we're in overshoot would be putting it mildly. Unfortunately our system requires continuous growth due to diminishing returns & increasing costs, and this includes increasing workers & customers.

46 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

...as I stated before, pets regardless of necessary or recreational function arent going to go away, so I think its more necessary to regulate how we care for pets rather than the idea of barring people from owning them

They will go away when there aren't enough surplus resources to feed them and their human owners.

 

44 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Although this is bad too, because the effects of cats on wildlife is disasterous. People could keep their cats indoors, but...that's not fair on the cats either.

It's almost like transporting animals to other places is not always wise ^^

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25 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Anyway, yeah I think you've lain out a good argument. If somebody wants to feed their cat or dog a vegan diet, they've got to be smart about it, or supplement it with meat, but a smarter thing would probably be to avoid the issue all together by not buying pets.

Actually I do kind of agree with this point. If you have beliefs that would force you to put an animal at risk or in some other way make you an inadequate carer for your pet and you are not willing to compromise your personal ideals for the sake of your pet's health, should it be an issue, then you do not need a pet. I don't advocate getting a pet purely because you want one, don't get a pet if you can't give it what it needs in terms of food, attention, environment and companionship. 

Also I would say don't BUY pets and don't support breeders. There are plenty of abandoned pets in shelters and rescues that need homes. 

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2 hours ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

The biosphere was doing fine before modern man appeared.

"At the time of the Roman Empire and the birth of Christ, the earth contained ∼1,000 billion tons of carbon in living biomass (10), equivalent to 35 ZJ of chemical energy, mostly in the form of trees in forests. In just the last 2,000 y, humans have reduced this by about 45% to ∼550 billion tons of carbon in biomass, equivalent to 19.2 ZJ. The loss has accelerated over time, with 11% depleted just since 1900 (Fig. 3) (11, 12). Over recent years, on average, we are harvesting—and releasing as heat and carbon dioxide—the remaining 550 billion tons of carbon in living biomass at a net rate of ∼1.5 billion tons carbon per year (13, 14)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4534254/

Yep we certainly know how to take care of the well-being of other forms of life on this planet.

 

Perhaps I should've been more specific: most parents don't want their children sterilized. As for population we started going over natural carrying capacity around 9000BC when we began agriculture, if not earlier.

To say that we're in overshoot would be putting it mildly. Unfortunately our system requires continuous growth due to diminishing returns & increasing costs, and this includes increasing workers & customers.

They will go away when there aren't enough surplus resources to feed them and their human owners.

 

It's almost like transporting animals to other places is not always wise ^^

So....in other words we shouldnt have conservation efforts for wildlife because we dont need humans to help undo the damage to the Earth theyre already ruining? Are you saying ecologists and biologists should stop working?

...and naturally pet ownership will decrease when human resources do, but its not likely to stop in a first world...or even any community with enough resources. So anyone saying people shouldnt have them are having ideals of futility

 

Im really not talking about logical evolutionary predispositions to maintaining the environment or the decline of pet ownership, Im speaking in a modern age in the present tense.

 

Regarding the sterilization of children...well...thats a given. As Ive stated before pets are treated like children, but in the end they are not, theyre different. An adult human can choose contraceptive methods as a means of preventing childbirth, an adult animal cannot, and in captivity its more drastic than in the wild. So of course people wont sterilize children.

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10 hours ago, Saxon said:

I thought the rest of you must have been right because like, 10 of you all agreed and I'm not a dog or cat owner.

How come none of you checked?

maybe it's because they've seen accounts of what many vegan feeders actually give their pets and had those people in mind throughout the discussion

maybe it's because they don't buy that the commercial vegan food is wholly appropriate and you just assumed zero research was ever done

maybe it's maybelline

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1 hour ago, Gator said:

maybe it's because they've seen accounts of what many vegan feeders actually give their pets and had those people in mind throughout the discussion

maybe it's because they don't buy that the commercial vegan food is wholly appropriate and you just assumed zero research was ever done

maybe it's maybelline

I sort of doubt this is based on life experience, because some posters say that they've never met a vegan; I think people were just so confident that they didn't bother checking.

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8 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

So....in other words we shouldnt have conservation efforts for wildlife because we dont need humans to help undo the damage to the Earth theyre already ruining? Are you saying ecologists and biologists should stop working?

Nope, I'm saying that overall we're doing more damage than good to the global ecosystem.

 

8 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

...and naturally pet ownership will decrease when human resources do, but its not likely to stop in a first world...or even any community with enough resources. So anyone saying people shouldnt have them are having ideals of futility

Your faith in countries always having enough resources despite requiring continuous growth on a finite world is almost admirable, hence your previous statement of "pets regardless of necessary or recreational function arent going to go away".

 

9 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Im really not talking about logical evolutionary predispositions to maintaining the environment or the decline of pet ownership, Im speaking in a modern age in the present tense.

Our species doesn't seem to have any evolutionary predisposition to maintaining the complex environment historically or in the present tense. As for the decline of pet ownership I don't recall mentioning pet ownership was going up or down.

 

9 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Regarding the sterilization of children...well...thats a given. As Ive stated before pets are treated like children, but in the end they are not, theyre different. An adult human can choose contraceptive methods as a means of preventing childbirth, an adult animal cannot, and in captivity its more drastic than in the wild. So of course people wont sterilize children.

Perhaps we're arguing over semantics for this one. I think we could agree that in some ways animals are treated like children, and in other ways they're treated worse than prisoners.

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