Honesty Helps

[Eggdodger]

I had a very surreal dream last night that felt more like a philosophical exploration than a series of events.

There were three tables in a hallway, and I was sitting at a middle one talking with a friend. To the left of me is this beautiful, beautiful girl talking with her friend. I could still tell she was trans, but she passed so much better than me. On my right was a girl who was obviously trying to pass but... didn't.

I had different, but similar reactions to both of them. I kept peeking at the girl on my left because I wanted to see what she was doing right (and the friend I was talking to was on my left). I avoided eye contact with her, though, because frankly I didn't feel worthy of being in her presence. She did likewise in ignoring me even though we both knew we knew. I figured if I passed well enough for her not to feel like I'd give her away, she would have started the conversation.

The girl on my right, however, saw me and decided I was a fine person to talk to. I turned around to face her as she addressed me in her cheery falsetto voice and I just could not bring myself to make eye contact with her. There wasn't a pleasant place to focus on on her unshaven, caked-with-makeup face, so I looked at the table instead. My friend eventually cut her off and said something along the lines of, "I know what you're going for but you don't need to use so much makeup on one side of your face." The girl on my right looked extremely hurt, made a whiny noise and slumped in her chair. I turned around to face my friend, and the girl on the left was nodding in approval.

This dream addressed a couple of things. First off, I may not pass perfectly but I've come a long way from... that. Second, and even I struggle with this: people who aren't passing or who could pass better really need to know or they'll carry on in ignorance. Some people would rather be nice and hope the trans person eventually figures it out on their own, but other people won't be as nice about it as you, so you really need to tell them straight-up while they're still in a safe environment. Even if you're not comfortable giving unsolicited advice, if they ask you a question about themselves, there's no reason to sugarcoat it. Some advice for any transfolk reading this: this sort of feedback usually comes from a place of love. If they're being honest with you, it's because they want to see you be the best you that you can be. Try not to have a deep visceral reaction to it or you might not get honest answers in the future.

[Vallium]

tbh Im of the opinion that if you can make it as androgynous, the rest is up to behavior, presentation, and style.

 

People like to attach a gender to things, they do this with children and animals even though children are androgynous and dogs lack visible indication to the human senses of gender differentation. Both are given genders by people based on what we put on them, a bowtie on the neck says "male" whereas a bow on the hair says "female".

Once you break enough visible physical boundaries to be neutral and you give people visible cues to work with, the more you can pass.

 

Sadly having to confide in things like color and fashion is a little rigid but if you dont have enough natural male or natural female characteristics to go with you have to play these cues. I know a lot of ftms that would rather have long hair but in the early stages they cant do this because their face is not yet masculinized, long hair reads more as female.

 

 

Congrats on your revelation dream though, Im glad you feel youve come a long way, in, if you think about it, a relatively short time

[Saxon]

2 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

dogs lack visible indication to the human senses of gender differentation.

...do I have a super power I wasn't aware of?

 

Anyway, I don't really know what to make about some transgender people's ambition to pass as the opposite sex. It feels like seeking an affirmation in others that shouldn't really need to be sought and one that is principally determined by aspects of physical appearance that are beyond a person's control.
I would also not interrupt a transvestite to tell them they are not passing, because who knows- they might not be trying to pass anyway, they might just be comfortable being perceived as a transvestite. .

I suppose cisgender people also seek affirmation from others for their physical appearance, despite constantly being told that it is our inner goodness that matters.

[Vallium]

1 hour ago, Saxon said:

...do I have a super power I wasn't aware of?

Well I mean...the main difference is size, but this isnt always obvious unless you have a male and female dog side by side for size comparison, the rest is mainly dogs communicate by scent, after all. 

Its easier for humans to communicate male/female difference amongst each other because we read facial structure and body structure to read these signs

[Vae]

1 hour ago, Saxon said:

Anyway, I don't really know what to make about some transgender people's ambition to pass as the opposite sex. It feels like seeking an affirmation in others that shouldn't really need to be sought and one that is principally determined by aspects of physical appearance that are beyond a person's control.

I would also not interrupt a transvestite to tell them they are not passing, because who knows- they might not be trying to pass anyway, they might just be comfortable being perceived as a transvestite. .

I suppose cisgender people also seek affirmation from others for their physical appearance, despite constantly being told that it is our inner goodness that matters.

1. Transvestites and transgender are not the same thing.

2. Whether we want it to be or not, and whether or not we think we're "past" it as a society or not, gender plays a pretty big role in how people are perceived and treated. Moreso if you're "not normal" by not fitting neatly and directly into the binarisms we've come to expect out of those concepts.
Passing is an attempt to fix and avoid negative treatment for not following the concept of "It was born with a penis so it's a boy / it was born with a vagina so it's a girl." And in some cases just to feel more comfortable in your own skin, since body dysphoria also tends to play a big role in transgender issues.

[Toshabi]

I didn't read your thread at all, but I honestly think that buying your cousin that tin of Moose Munch popcorn would probably mean a lot to him. I've known a lot of people who suffer from having nothing to snack on in their idle time. Most snacks usually don't last that long, but the can of Moose Munch I acquired recently has been keeping my munchies at bay for the past 5 days. Its a lot in such a small tin of popcorn, so I honestly think you should give it a shot for him. If not, you can always give Toshabi a can of Moose Munch for next year's Christmas holiday. 

[Feelwell]

6 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

People like to attach a gender to things, they do this with children and animals even though children are androgynous and dogs lack visible indication to the human senses of gender differentation. Both are given genders by people based on what we put on them, a bowtie on the neck says "male" whereas a bow on the hair says "female"

 

Honestly my mind just likes to be organized so it wants something to fill in for gender, along with name or nickname, approximate age and stuff like that. It's stuff I honestly don't care about (for the most part, I guess name is important usually) but otherwise I find it hard to remember people. Sorta like a corrupted file. If stuff is missing, it's harder to read.

You're right though, people do try and attach gender to thing.

But their are totally identifiable traits of the gender of most dogs. For example my friends dog has eyelashes that hollywood celebrities would kill for.

[Eggdodger]

5 hours ago, Saxon said:

Anyway, I don't really know what to make about some transgender people's ambition to pass as the opposite sex. It feels like seeking an affirmation in others that shouldn't really need to be sought and one that is principally determined by aspects of physical appearance that are beyond a person's control.
I would also not interrupt a transvestite to tell them they are not passing, because who knows- they might not be trying to pass anyway, they might just be comfortable being perceived as a transvestite. .

I suppose cisgender people also seek affirmation from others for their physical appearance, despite constantly being told that it is our inner goodness that matters.

My assertions were upon the assumption you are friends with this person and you know they are actively attempting to pass as the gender they identify as. If you don't know them, I reckon you would have the tactfulness to keep mum, as they might take a comment of that nature from anything less than an acquaintance as hostile regardless of your intent.

Anything else I had to say, Vae beat me to it already. I'm passing for me. If I were passing for something more nebulous like "society", I wouldn't be weightlifting.

[Saxon]

8 hours ago, Vae said:

1. Transvestites and transgender are not the same thing.

2. Whether we want it to be or not, and whether or not we think we're "past" it as a society or not, gender plays a pretty big role in how people are perceived and treated. Moreso if you're "not normal" by not fitting neatly and directly into the binarisms we've come to expect out of those concepts.
Passing is an attempt to fix and avoid negative treatment for not following the concept of "It was born with a penis so it's a boy / it was born with a vagina so it's a girl." And in some cases just to feel more comfortable in your own skin, since body dysphoria also tends to play a big role in transgender issues.

I'm sure there are some people who are both transvestites and transgender, and I can't really presume to know whether someone who I can tell is dressed as the opposite sex is one, the other, or both.

I think we should redress social expectations about gender. We should be doing that anyway, right?

 

9 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Well I mean...the main difference is size, but this isnt always obvious unless you have a male and female dog side by side for size comparison, the rest is mainly dogs communicate by scent, after all. 

Its easier for humans to communicate male/female difference amongst each other because we read facial structure and body structure to read these signs

I can tell boy and girl dogs apart because boy dogs have a wing-dang-doodle. This is a 'visible indication of gender differentiation', as you put it. ;3

 

My assertions were upon the assumption you are friends with this person and you know they are actively attempting to pass as the gender they identify as. If you don't know them, I reckon you would have the tactfulness to keep mum, as they might take a comment of that nature from anything less than an acquaintance as hostile regardless of your intent.

Anything else I had to say, Vae beat me to it already. I'm passing for me. If I were passing for something more nebulous like "society", I wouldn't be weightlifting.

 

God, imagine telling someone they're not passing as a girl and it turns out they were born a woman.

[Vallium]

3 hours ago, Saxon said:

I'm sure there are some people who are both transvestites and transgender, and I can't really presume to know whether someone who I can tell is dressed as the opposite sex is one, the other, or both.

I think we should redress social expectations about gender. We should be doing that anyway, right?

 

I can tell boy and girl dogs apart because boy dogs have a wing-dang-doodle. This is a 'visible indication of gender differentiation', as you put it. ;3

 

 

God, imagine telling someone they're not passing as a girl and it turns out they were born a woman.

im talking about other secondary sex traits besides the genitalia, at a glance you wouldnt tell the sex of an animal based on visible traits like you would another person, and besides that once the genitalia is checked people will establish if its a boy or girl and attach gender traits to it like pink or blue. If you put a pink collar on a boy dog and go out in public people who arent looking too closely will read this as female.

 

Im not trying to make this a complicated thing, mang. Im just noticing a trend in animal ownership and peoples insistance of attaching gendered traits to species that wouldnt otherwise care :T and it is to the point of insistance too, 

 

...in fact my whole point was from childbirth to other species we people tend to overemphasize gender roles on someones physical traits, its as if people find it odd if something androgynous is read the wrong way since most people in public not looking at your genitals for indication.

[Jtrekkie]

I for one am not very good at sexing humans. It is however pretty easy to see if makeup is applied incorrectly or if someone could use some tips dressing. The idea, I think, is to help your friends out where you can instead of falsely flattering, since any flack received from the public at large is not going to be so charitable.

On the nature of social expectations for genders, the fact is that they exist. Not everyone wishes to stand out, and for some people standing out is not in their best interests. 

 

Also, please avoid looking at other people's pet's genitals when you meet them. Another silly social standard, I know, but it can get weird.

 

[Feelwell]

3 hours ago, Jtrekkie said:

I for one am not very good at sexing humans. It is however pretty easy to see if makeup is applied incorrectly or if someone could use some tips dressing. The idea, I think, is to help your friends out where you can instead of falsely flattering, since any flack received from the public at large is not going to be so charitable.

On the nature of social expectations for genders, the fact is that they exist. Not everyone wishes to stand out, and for some people standing out is not in their best interests. 

 

Also, please avoid looking at other people's pet's genitals when you meet them. Another silly social standard, I know, but it can get weird.

 

How else will we know if it's an alien in a dog costume? 

Looking under the dog is the only way we can see the zipper.

[FlynnCoyote]

10 hours ago, Jtrekkie said:

Also, please avoid looking at other people's pet's genitals when you meet them. Another silly social standard, I know, but it can get weird.

I have never known anyone to do this nor has it occurred to me to do this. I usually just ask what the pet's name is and it's usually a solid enough assumption from there.

[Vallium]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:16 AM, FlynnCoyote said:

I have never known anyone to do this nor has it occurred to me to do this. I usually just ask what the pet's name is and it's usually a solid enough assumption from there.

In a vet clinic I worked at someone named their female dog Ray, while the name Ray could be neutral enough my coworker was a little dissapointed or offended they gave a girl dog a boy name

[Feelwell]

Wait wait wait just remembered:

 

Okay good.