"Is my art bad???"

[Tsuujou]

Yes.
It's wholly irredeemable rubbish for dumpster people. You have shitty tonal values, garbage anatomy, you know fuck all about any sort of perspective, you have the color theory of a decrepit dog, you vomit out mediocre designs that makes Kancolle look like Blade Runner, and just in general boast ludicrously weak fundamentals. You are ass tier and every time you put the pen down to draw, your hand-me-down Wacom Bamboo begs for damnation. Quit trying. You're a fuck awful artist.

Is this the answer people want when they ask this question? I have several people (that for some reason hold me to some weirdly high standard) that ask me this expecting a real answer. That is exactly how stark they are about it. I'm not even close to kidding. Let's break this down.

"Is my art bad?"

What purpose does this serve? IF the asker is serious and wants an honest answer, they should be satisfied with a yes or no, right? It is a yes or no question. But what would any answer help them with? If I say "yes, your art is bad", then that only confirms a depressing suspicion about their efforts or dents any remaining confidence. If I say no, well then I'm just pandering which I imagine is what the asker wants in the first place and that does nothing for growth either. But I try not to assume that immediately. Personally, I don't think validation is a bad thing to want if you work hard, but this is the worst way to seek it. It's one of those awkward things you ask someone that puts them in this weird social dilemma. Ever have one of those people that's a needy wreck just come from nowhere and ask "DO YOU HATE ME!?" It's almost scary...

I just find the question extremely unproductive. There are way better things to ask in a similar vein.
Is something off about my work? Am I doing X correctly lately? Do you know a resource to improve X? 
I am more inclined to give you wholesome answers where I can (and feel I have the authority to) if you don't blindside me with a loaded question like "is my art bad".

I really can't stand this or questions like it.

[Vae]

I hate questions of this vein.
"Do you hate me?" "Am I a bad person?" "Am I ugly?"
It's just a shitty manipulation ploy to get shallow, forced reassurance. Because if you say at point blank "yes", you're gonna look like a dick.

I like to just answer everything of this nature the same way, in that if they have a problem, they should fix it.
Art is no different.
If you feel like your art is bad, study the areas that you're lacking. If you don't, it's your own damn fault.
Same thing goes for personal appearance, personality, and the like. If you have an issue, fix it or stop asking my opinion.

[SirRob]

Is my art bad?

[Saxon]

Eh, it's easy to feel that one's art is irredeemably shit, so I can see where these questions come from.

 

Is my art bad?

 

You're bad in general. Bad boy. >:C go stand in the corner.

[Socketosis]

29 minutes ago, Vae said:

I hate questions of this vein.

But you hate everything.

[Strongbob]

'Is my art bad?'

'Have you been drawing for less than ten years?  Yes?  Then your art is bad.  Skill takes time and effort.  You will only improve by struggling through the shit and putting in the hours.'

 

[Vae]

15 minutes ago, Socketosis said:

But you hate everything.

I do hate everything,
but I hate this more than some other things.

Shit is worse than piss, etc.

[Saxon]

24 minutes ago, Strongbob said:

'Is my art bad?'

'Have you been drawing for less than ten years?  Yes?  Then your art is bad.  Skill takes time and effort.  You will only improve by struggling through the shit and putting in the hours.'

 

Some people do improve considerably quicker than others.

[Strongbob]

13 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Some people do improve considerably quicker than others.

True, but those people aren't generally the ones who are asking if their art is bad.  

[Saxon]

15 minutes ago, Strongbob said:

True, but those people aren't generally the ones who are asking if their art is bad.  

I actually know of some proficient artists who have crises of confidence and regularly delete their whole galleries. I feel frustrated with them and sorry for them at the same time.

I kind of just want to hug them.

[Strongbob]

16 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I actually know of some proficient artists who have crises of confidence and regularly delete their whole galleries. I feel frustrated with them and sorry for them at the same time.

I kind of just want to hug them.

This is a good point and it brings up the bigger question of self worth and mental health within the art world.   If you can't see value and take pride in your own work, even your good work, then you may be struggling with issues like depression and may need some professional help.  

[Vae]

15 minutes ago, Strongbob said:

This is a good point and it brings up the bigger question of self worth and mental health within the art world.   If you can't see value and take pride in your own work, even your good work, then you may be struggling with issues like depression and may need some professional help.  

I don't think it warrants professional help unless it actually impedes your ability to live or draw at all, period.

I have really lofty goals, and strict-ass standards I place on myself, but that's more of a motivator to improve than anything.
Gotta kick your own ass before you can get to the places you want to be.

[Saxon]

27 minutes ago, Strongbob said:

This is a good point and it brings up the bigger question of self worth and mental health within the art world.   If you can't see value and take pride in your own work, even your good work, then you may be struggling with issues like depression and may need some professional help.  

Eh, I don't know. I guess it might be symptomatic of low self esteem that could be associated with a disorder, but I'm not really familiar with psychiatry so I have no idea. *shrug*

[Strongbob]

16 minutes ago, Vae said:

I don't think it warrants professional help unless it actually impedes your ability to live or draw at all, period.

I have really lofty goals, and strict-ass standards I place on myself, but that's more of a motivator to improve than anything.
Gotta kick your own ass before you can get to the places you want to be.

This attitude will serve you well.  Keep going. 

6 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Eh, I don't know. I guess it might be symptomatic of low self esteem that could be associated with a disorder, but I'm not really familiar with psychiatry so I have no idea. *shrug*

I'm not a psychiatrist either, but pretty much everything can be defined as a disorder from some perspective.  And since we are talking about furries here our starting position is already a bit questionable.

[Saxon]

4 minutes ago, Strongbob said:

This attitude will serve you well.  Keep going. 

I'm not a psychiatrist either, but pretty much everything can be defined as a disorder from some perspective.  And since we are talking about furries here our starting position is already a bit questionable.

I would hope not, lol.

[Strongbob]

1 hour ago, Saxon said:

I would hope not, lol.

This is totally totally true.  Kelly Ann Conway told me.  

[Rabbit Head]

What even is constructive criticism. 

That's what I imagine people are looking for when they ask that. Constructive Criticism. 

jesus. 

[Vae]

14 minutes ago, Rabbit Head said:

What even is constructive criticism. 

That's what I imagine people are looking for when they ask that. Constructive Criticism. 

jesus. 

Asking a vague "Is my art bad" points to literally nothing specific that the person wants to improve upon. "Bad" can be a million different things. "Bad" is also going to differ upon the individual artist's goal, and what they're trying to convey with their work.

Constructive criticism is generally geared more to specific areas, like anatomy, lighting, and movement.
If that's the way people are trying to seek out actual constructive criticism, it's either insanely dense or insanely selfish, considering just how many areas that question needs to cover all at once.

[Saxon]

I think you guys are over interpreting a comment which people make because they feel bad.

[Rabbit Head]

31 minutes ago, Vae said:

Asking a vague "Is my art bad" points to literally nothing specific that the person wants to improve upon. "Bad" can be a million different things. "Bad" is also going to differ upon the individual artist's goal, and what they're trying to convey with their work.

Constructive criticism is generally geared more to specific areas, like anatomy, lighting, and movement.
If that's the way people are trying to seek out actual constructive criticism, it's either insanely dense or insanely selfish, considering just how many areas that question needs to cover all at once.

If that's the case, then do this.

"is my art bad?"

"What do you mean? In what way?"

Had to use two whole brain cells for that one, let me tell you.

 

 

[Falaffel]

1 hour ago, Rabbit Head said:

What even is constructive criticism. 

That's what I imagine people are looking for when they ask that. Constructive Criticism. 

jesus. 

If they want that, then they should ask specifically for it instead of acting like some beta cuck who doesn't have  the confidence to draw a straight line without breaking down. 

I can guarantee you that most of the people who ask "is <blank> bad" are only looking for a boost in confidence. Sometimes they're looking for an excuse to quit. 

11 minutes ago, Rabbit Head said:

If that's the case, then do this.

"is my art bad?"

"What do you mean? In what way?"

Had to use two whole brain cells for that one, let me tell you.

You're either hopelessly optimistic, or you don't know how people work. Either way, that doesn't work how you think it does. 

Yes, challenging someone's question will sometimes make them back down. You're making them think instead of emotionally spew words at you in hopes you'll save them from their crippled self esteem. However, again, i can tell you for a fact that it will not always work as desired . I've had that approach backfire many times. As soon as i didn't give them an answer they wanted, they disregarded everything i said and ran with whatever unhinged belief they already had. 

[Tsuujou]

9 minutes ago, Rabbit Head said:

If that's the case, then do this.

"is my art bad?"

"What do you mean? In what way?"

Had to use two whole brain cells for that one, let me tell you.

 

 

The thing I'm getting at is that the person asking isn't looking for that which is why the question is pointless.

[Saxon]

Are we really calling people beta cucks now?

._.

[Tsuujou]

5 hours ago, SirRob said:

Is my art bad?

You know, come to think of it, I haven't seen a drawing from you in literally 3-4 years. Last I even saw you draw, I was in a stream where you were doing little snakes. 

5 hours ago, Saxon said:

Eh, it's easy to feel that one's art is irredeemably shit, so I can see where these questions come from.

I understand the internal conflict and self doubt 100%. Feel it constantly. Self deprecating comments are common and just the general statements like "damn, I'm bad" are one thing. I don't usually care if it's not a constant thing. But It's like Vae said. I just find when people directly come to me with any sort of question like this to be a cheap ploy. 
The people that ask me this the most do it repeatedly. It just gets obnoxious. lol

Also, the beginning rant was hyperbole. Just clearing that up. 

[Rabbit Head]

9 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Are we really calling people beta cucks now?

._.

Yup, they are. Very good people we have on this forum. 

[FenrirDarkWolf]

I think the main question is;

"How do we know if they're asking it seriously, or if they're looking for approval?"

Because some people, like me, don't exactly KNOW what they're supposed to be looking for to improve their art. Granted, it could be said a better way, but some people (again, like me), don't know how to speak words properly.

[Vallium]

Oh, honey *snaps fingers* I KNOW my art is bad

I just do it for the lulz

[FenrirDarkWolf]

Just now, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Oh, honey *snaps fingers* I KNOW my art is bad

I just do it for the lulz

but Val, you can do like, dynamic poses and shit

I can't x_x

[Vallium]

Just now, FenrirDarkWolf said:

but Val, you can do like, dynamic poses and shit

I can't x_x

d'aaaaaaw

I have potential~ 

I still love your shit too, though. You and your BF are hella artsy.

[Tsuujou]

Not understanding the combative replies to each other. Not really a crazy topic to get combative over.

[Saxon]

8 minutes ago, Tsuujou said:

You know, come to think of it, I haven't seen a drawing from you in literally 3-4 years. Last I even saw you draw, I was in a stream where you were doing little snakes. 

I understand the internal conflict and self doubt 100%. Feel it constantly. Self deprecating comments are common and just the general statements like "damn, I'm bad" are one thing. I don't usually care if it's not a constant thing. But It's like Vae said. I just find when people directly come to me with any sort of question like this to be a cheap ploy. 
The people that ask me this the most do it repeatedly. It just gets obnoxious. lol

Also, the beginning rant was hyperbole. Just clearing that up. 

Yeah I got that the opening post was hyperbole; I didn't really get the impression that you actively wanted to shit all over these artists.

I kind of felt like we were being led into exotic territory when comments like 'fix your personal appearance' were made (how are people meant to fix being born with a face they don't like anyway?) and people began calling each other cucks. s:

 

I also am going to say that I think a flip side of this whole art confidence situation exists, where some artists are nasty people and get satisfaction from telling aspiring artists how bad they are. 'I can't wait for this girl to ask me what I think of her work, so that I can put her in her rightful place as my inferior'. I see that sometimes and it confuses me.

[Tsuujou]

1 minute ago, Saxon said:

I also am going to say that I think a flip side of this whole art confidence situation exists, where some artists are nasty people and get satisfaction from telling aspiring artists how bad they are. 'I can't wait for this girl to ask me what I think of her work, so that I can put her in her rightful place as my inferior'. I see that sometimes and it confuses me.

Oh Christ, this absolutely is a thing and that shit is a special kind of terrible. 
I see people who make their e-peen bacon on Tumblr being "critique" blogs where they just target a random artist and, without notifying them, tagging them, or privately messaging them, utterly trash their work in every terrible way they can. Then they hide behind the "you can't take criticism" card when they get their bullshit called out. Sometimes it's not even artists. But when it is like a talented artist, that pisses me off. Because if you're so good and think someone's bad, help them. 

That's a good rant for another day. I just made this thread because it's something fairly common this week directed at me.

[Fossa]

I was thinking that artists in general have tended to be fairly moody sorts, who are often very self-critical, even in the mainstream art world; I was pondering Van Gogh, who suffered a great deal from depression, killed himself, and considered himself a failure, even though his art grew to be highly esteemed, and now, paintings sell for upwards of $80 million. Art, and if it's 'good' is a pretty thorny issue, to me. And Jackson Pollock wrestled with a lot of demons, and also pretty much killed himself, and even if people think his work looks like a huge mass of scribbles, they've fetched upwards of $140 million...there is a certain arbitrary, and also competitive side to the 'normal' art world, which I think is also mirrored in the furry art world, on a smaller scale.

So when somebody asks such a question, I have to wonder more about their inner state of mind, the very nature of self-esteem, 'value', both personal and monetary, and I can't say it bothers me that maybe they've hinted at being depressed or something in a roundabout way. And if they do wanna talk about art, I'm all ears. But I can also see where it may be annoying, when you do try to help, and they don't really listen.

[Vae]

39 minutes ago, Rabbit Head said:

If that's the case, then do this.

"is my art bad?"

"What do you mean? In what way?"

Had to use two whole brain cells for that one, let me tell you.

Two brain cells would also tell you that the responsibility of specifics should come from the asker. This is an extra, completely unnecessary step, when you're already asking for someone else's time and attention, which they are not by any means required to provide you.

Advice given for the sake of your benefit as an artist is a generosity. Do not expect more than is owed, which is nothing.

More often than not, you also get vague "I dunno. I just wanna know." responses in that specific case. I know. I've had this conversation with many people before I got sick of it.
Worse yet, as Kea already stated, you get people who just throw a shitty attitude back, because literally the only thing they actually wanted was validation.
"I don't think my anatomy's bad."
Well then don't fucking ask me.

[Saxon]

9 minutes ago, Fossa-Boy said:

I was thinking that artists in general have tended to be fairly moody sorts, who are often very self-critical, even in the mainstream art world; I was pondering Van Gogh, who suffered a great deal from depression, killed himself, and considered himself a failure, even though his art grew to be highly esteemed, and now, paintings sell for upwards of $80 million. Art, and if it's 'good' is a pretty thorny issue, to me. And Jackson Pollock wrestled with a lot of demons, and also pretty much killed himself, and even if people think his work looks like a huge masses of scribbles, they've fetched upwards of $140 million...there is a certain arbitrary, and also competitive side to the 'normal' art world, which I think is also mirrored in the furry art world, on a smaller scale.

So when somebody asks such a question, I have to wonder more about their inner state of mind, the very nature of self-esteem, 'value', both personal and monetary, and I can't say it bothers me that maybe they've hinted at being depressed or something in a roundabout way. And if they do wanna talk about art, I'm all ears. But I can also see where it may be annoying, when you do try to help, and they don't really listen.

I wonder whether the perception of artists as moody is true or not.

I don't really like the commonly held notion that an artist has to be 'troubled' for their work to be interesting though.

 

[Tsuujou]

7 minutes ago, Vae said:

 you get people who just throw a shitty attitude back, because literally the only thing they actually wanted was validation.
"I don't think my anatomy's bad."

This right here is what someone I know does. Even when asking for specifics, he will outright flip out on me if I actually tell him what he can fix. So I just don't help him anymore unless he wants a reference. 

[Saxon]

All the drama like this sucks most of the satisfaction out of making art at all, sometimes.

[FenrirDarkWolf]

4 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I wonder whether the perception of artists as moody is true or not.

I don't really like the commonly held notion that an artist has to be 'troubled' for their work to be interesting though.

 

From a purely psychological standpoint, you do have to admit that a lot of artists (in any field) tend to be extremely self-critical and depressed about their work at times.

Some artists just don't know where to begin to fix themselves, which is why some of them ask vague questions. I, personally, don't know what to look for with flaws usually. (Except for colour, I do, mostly, know that)

[Vae]

I mean, art drama is only going to be a factor for you if you give a shit about it.

I draw for me.
I value help, because I want to be good at my craft, but everything else is irrelevant.

[Strongbob]

5 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I wonder whether the perception of artists as moody is true or not.

I don't really like the commonly held notion that an artist has to be 'troubled' for their work to be interesting though.

 

I'm sure their are a variety of personality types among artists and I have great respect for anyone who would take that on as a career.  I can only imagine how tough it would be to have everyone judging you constantly and hoping to break out instead of falling into obscurity.  If it made you troubled and moody, you'd probably have good reason to feel that way.  

[Vae]

2 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

Some artists just don't know where to begin to fix themselves, which is why some of them ask vague questions. I, personally, don't know what to look for with flaws usually. (Except for colour, I do, mostly, know that)

Then you break everything into categories and ask in pieces.
Mastering a particular element of art (like anatomy, or perspective, or color) is going to take time and effort in itself, anyway. It's combining all of those skills that's going to produce the work you actually want.

[Saxon]

2 minutes ago, Strongbob said:

I'm sure their are a variety of personality types among artists and I have great respect for anyone who would take that on as a career.  I can only imagine how tough it would be to have everyone judging you constantly and hoping to break out instead of falling into obscurity.  If it made you troubled and moody, you'd probably have good reason to feel that way.  

I am so guilty of making artists feel shit about themselves, admittedly; I told an artist they didn't deserve their degree once. ( the masterpiece they produced for their degree was a screenshot of a Linux terminal on their computer )

 

[Fossa]

23 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I wonder whether the perception of artists as moody is true or not.

I don't really like the commonly held notion that an artist has to be 'troubled' for their work to be interesting though.

 

Good questions. Many of my favorite authors led pretty turbulent lives, but I've often wondered about the connection between creativity and moodiness. I suppose that since 'art' in a sense is a commentary of sorts, or a reaction, which can be both intellectual and emotional, it would lead people to having to question things, to setting them a bit apart from society, and that they have in ways left that sense of 'safety in numbers'. But that's a very elusive question.

Personally, I don't think a person has to be troubled to produce interesting art/writing/music, though I do have this tendency to be drawn to them, perhaps because I identify with similar struggles. (at least in the world of 'non-furry' art and such) As for furry artists and writers, I can't say I know any of them well enough to form any opinions.

[Saxon]

8 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

From a purely psychological standpoint, you do have to admit that a lot of artists (in any field) tend to be extremely self-critical and depressed about their work at times.

Some artists just don't know where to begin to fix themselves, which is why some of them ask vague questions. I, personally, don't know what to look for with flaws usually. (Except for colour, I do, mostly, know that)

I think it is in part because, practice doesn't guarantee improvement.

So people can end up sinking a lot of time into trying to get good, and become very frustrated that they don't see improvement.

I don't think it helps that good artists lecture people that they haven't practiced enough, as improvement obviously comes more easily to some than others. This is a sad conclusion though.

[FenrirDarkWolf]

4 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I think it is in part because, practice doesn't guarantee improvement.

So people can end up sinking a lot of time into trying to get good, and become very frustrated that they don't see improvement.

I don't think it helps that good artists lecture people that they haven't practiced enough, as improvement obviously comes more easily to some than others. This is a sad conclusion though.

For me, I improve for a while and then I kind of plateau and I stagnate until something picks it back up and it's frustrating. (It happened with dance, with guard, with music, and with drawing.)

 

[Vallium]

3 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I think it is in part because, practice doesn't guarantee improvement.

So people can end up sinking a lot of time into trying to get good, and become very frustrated that they don't see improvement.

I don't think it helps that good artists lecture people that they haven't practiced enough, as improvement obviously comes more easily to some than others. This is a sad conclusion though.

Are you saying some people are more apt to be good at art than others and any level of practice from someone who isnt apt will not yield better results than someone who is more naturally prone to improvement?

3 hours ago, Vae said:

I don't think it warrants professional help unless it actually impedes your ability to live or draw at all, period.

I have really lofty goals, and strict-ass standards I place on myself, but that's more of a motivator to improve than anything.
Gotta kick your own ass before you can get to the places you want to be.

Im curious enough since youre quite a good artist, what are your lofty goals and standards and things you wish to improve on at your level of skill?

[Saxon]

1 minute ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Are you saying some people are more apt to be good at art than others and any level of practice from someone who isnt apt will not yield better results than someone who is more naturally prone to improvement?

More or less.

I think it's like sport. Some people have more potential than others. When those people with high potential start practicing they see themselves improving massively and may not understand that other people who practice just as hard won't experience the same improvement.

 

[Vallium]

...also, I see where both sides are coming from, so it totally relies on the context of a situation, and people are reading into this thread two different ways.

[Fossa]

15 minutes ago, Saxon said:

More or less.

I think it's like sport. Some people have more potential than others. When those people with high potential start practicing they see themselves improving massively and may not understand that other people who practice just as hard won't experience the same improvement.

 

I tend to agree...as much as I wanted to be good at visual art, in a representational way, it just never happened, and was always been very frustrating! And so I took to writing instead, which comes to me much easier. (though typing does not)

[Tsuujou]

Just now, Saxon said:

More or less.

I think it's like sport. Some people have more potential than others. When those people with high potential start practicing they see themselves improving massively and may not understand that other people who practice just as hard won't experience the same improvement.

 

Honestly, as horrible as it sounds and as much as I want to disagree, I can't bring myself to. I have seen 15 year olds drawing like Blizzard professionals after a year of drawing and they just casually go "oh it's a hobby. I never took classes. I think it's fun. c:". 
Even beyond art. There's a 14 year old who became one of the top ten best Smash 4 players after a year of playing and is stronger than people who've been playing the last three games competitively for longer than he's been on this Earth. 

I WISH it was just hard work for everyone. While yes, they still need to work some people just...get it. That actually just makes me upset and it's why I don't get that "there's no such thing as talent" that a lot of artists swear by. People are just more naturally tuned to certain skills so they have to work less for their greatness where others spend years and see almost no gains sometimes.

1 minute ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

...also, I see where both sides are coming from, so it totally relies on the context of a situation, and people are reading into this thread two different ways.

And that's fine honestly. I think if I provided context with some people in particular, you'd see where I'm coming from but I'd need to piece together a shit load of chats and I don't have the time for that (I probably wouldn't do it anyway because that would just be...I dunno. Not good. lol).