Playtonic gives JonTron the boot from Yooka-Laylee

[Nova]

6 hours ago, Battlechili said:

Those tags are beautiful

Yeah, but it was something promised when they Kickstarted the game.

They aren't getting what they paid for.

True though

Wait is playtonics mocking their fans with the tags?

 

[TrishaCat]

Just now, Nova said:

True though

Wait is playtonics mocking their fans with the tags?

 

No

Those tags are chosen by Steam users. If the same tags get used a lot, they appear on the store page and can be used to search for the game

[Socketosis]

3 hours ago, Battlechili said:

No

Those tags are chosen by Steam users. If the same tags get used a lot, they appear on the store page and can be used to search for the game

Heheh.

[Toshabi]

17 minutes ago, Socketosis said:

Heheh.

 

[Nova]

But i think most people will regret it when they refund and come back.

But playtonic already stuck that money into the game so its gone.

Atleast they didnt exterminated him for his political view. :v cough

 

[Socketosis]

Some of the character designs in this game are god awful.

[Tsuujou]

Who's getting Yooka Laylee btw? I'm pretty stoked for it. I missed Banjo as a kid, and never got a chance to play them. I think this looks rad.

[QT Melon]

I don't think they're "god awful" but there are some oddities in balance of character design. I'm not sure what they were thinking when they put the tentacles coming from her chin like that. The transition looks really bad. It also gives a "floating head" look because the extra arms are creating shoulders, and it looks a bit disjointed. It could be just the way the character is posed.

The second one is a bit freaky, but definitely needed work in the mouth area. Like the back of the mouth is some red glue, there's no tonsils or whatnot? It just looks really strange.

[Tsuujou]

It looks like they were going for that bad old school 3D promo look N64 games had a lot of.

[Socketosis]

10 minutes ago, Tsuujou said:

It looks like they were going for that bad old school 3D promo look N64 games had a lot of.

That's exactly what it reminds me of.

 

14 minutes ago, QT Melon said:

I don't think they're "god awful" but there are some oddities in balance of character design. I'm not sure what they were thinking when they put the tentacles coming from her chin like that. The transition looks really bad.

Yeah, it gives her a tentacle beard and it looks like a part of the model is clipping through where it shouldn't be. I also do not like the hands on the tentacles, nor the shower cap that makes her head look like a mushroom (or a penis, depending on where your mind is).

Looks like someone on Deviantart tried to improve the design, which I actually think is superior.

[AshleyAshes]

17 hours ago, Battlechili said:

Fair points on both I suppose. I've been told Steamspy isn't super accurate for unreleased games too, so it may be that those numbers aren't too related.

They literally admit that in their actual numbers. >_>  Take a look at what it is currently:

Owners: 6,131 ± 2,307

That part after?  '± 2,307'  That's their calculated margin or error.  'Plus or minus, 2307'.  As in 'It could be around 6131, but our available information doesn't allow much accuracy so it could be wrong by up to a third'.  Large fluctuations are just a result of the sampling data. You should never use SteamSpy for short term, granular information.  Use it only for broad, big picture perspectives.

[kazooie]

"rich blacks commit more crimes than poor whites"
"america should remain white majority"
"america was built by white people"

Hmm, yes, hmm. This is a real toughie, this one. Very difficult. 

[Socketosis]

47 minutes ago, kazooie said:

"rich blacks commit more crimes than poor whites"

JonTron cited that comment on this article, which he shared on Twitter. It states "Poor white kids are less likely to go to prison than rich black kids." Whether this means rich black kids commit more crime than poor white kids is debatable. It's possible that it's a case of racial profiling that is giving these results, but I don't think this should be the accepted answer without more research. I am completely open to believing wealthy black kids commit more crimes than poor white kids because of cultural differences.

I do however think Jon misinterpreted that article to mean that they DO commit more crimes. He hasn't responded to people pointing this out as far as I know. Perhaps it was addressed in the stream? I cannot be bothered listening to 2 hours of debate, so eh.

I still find it amusing that people are calling Jon white and anti-immigration even though he's actually half-Persian and the son of two immigrants (which he acknowledges).

[QT Melon]

29 minutes ago, Socketosis said:

I still find it amusing that people are calling Jon white and anti-immigration even though he's actually half-Persian and the son of two immigrants (which he acknowledges).

Mmm, being half Iranian myself, people forget why it's called "Iran" it actually means Aryan. There is ...slight cultural pride in the ancestry that they were Caucasian. Arabs had mixed in, so a lot of Persians are not the "slightly dusky skinned, black haired people" though many are. My own grandmother was green eyed with auburn hair, and she's pure Iranian. However, they're not exactly opposed to dark skin people and find Blacks beautiful as well. So well Iranians ancestry...they're "White" people. My grandfather on my mother's side is what people typically thing of Middle Eastern/Muslim in appearance. It's kinda why when you fill out that fun "Racial" part of various job applications, you don't see something much for Middle Eastern as a checkoff when identifying oneself.

So enough with that, I will agree he used his sources and misinterpreted them poorly, I'm not even contesting why he was removed. I don't think the decision was "tough" because of political appropriateness, It was tough with fan reaction/marketing. It still begs the question, if Playtronic doesn't want to be associated with racism, why take the money...or better yet why mock those who might be viewed as racist, but still take the money. If the idea was "we're better than that" it feels like this approach failed. It lacks class, sure deny the refund citing they didn't feel they broke any obligations. Banning and mocking, is a different level, even when you have people like Chris Schilling making tweets about Jon's voice and Playtronic employees favoriting it. It seemed so juvenile. Like kids trying to mock each other on the playground.

[kazooie]

2 hours ago, Socketosis said:

JonTron cited that comment on this article, which he shared on Twitter. It states "Poor white kids are less likely to go to prison than rich black kids." Whether this means rich black kids commit more crime than poor white kids is debatable. It's possible that it's a case of racial profiling that is giving these results, but I don't think this should be the accepted answer without more research. I am completely open to believing wealthy black kids commit more crimes than poor white kids because of cultural differences.

I do however think Jon misinterpreted that article to mean that they DO commit more crimes. He hasn't responded to people pointing this out as far as I know. Perhaps it was addressed in the stream? I cannot be bothered listening to 2 hours of debate, so eh.

I still find it amusing that people are calling Jon white and anti-immigration even though he's actually half-Persian and the son of two immigrants (which he acknowledges).

So, one thing to understand is that, when it comes to the destiny debate, context matters. On it's own, "wealthy blacks commit more crimes than poor whites" is a statement that could arise of simple misunderstanding.

 

The thing is, he didn't just say that, right? He also advocated for the white ethnostate. He stated that whites are responsible for modern society.

 

More importantly, he stated something along the lines of "Racism is over, and the only people who believe its real are leftists". Now, the washington post article was not about blacks committing more crimes. It was about discrimination. The entire article exists to refute jontron's point. However, if one believes that discrimination does not exist, then discrimination cannot be a factor for why blacks are being incarcerated. The natural conclusion is then that blacks commit more crimes because they are naturally predisposed (and I believe there were a number of times during the debate when he implied this).

 

Furthermore, he later went on a tirade about "white culture" vs the "african culture" of (american) blacks to justify some of his points. Also he retweets alt-righters (the EIC of infowars, for example), so that should probably go into your assessment of the statement in question.

 

And yeah, jontron might just be, and probably is, an idiot, but the thing about supremacist ideology is that it tends to appeal to idiots. Being an idiot and a supremacist sort of goes hand-in-hand.

 

[Toshabi]

58 minutes ago, kazooie said:

 

And yeah, jontron might just be, and probably is, an idiot, but the thing about supremacist ideology is that it tends to appeal to idiots. Being an idiot and a supremacist sort of goes hand-in-hand.

 

I never really knew you were into the supremacist ideology.

[kazooie]

Oh yea, and jontron gave a direct shoutout to /pol/ (/ourguy/ is one of their memes), /pol/ is known for having enthusiastic discussions about how inferior black people are. Also they gave birth to the modern version of the alt-right (now with frogs and anime!), so that's a thing, lol

 

20 minutes ago, Toshabi said:

I never really knew you were into the supremacist ideology.

love ya too toshabuns <3

[TrishaCat]

11 minutes ago, kazooie said:

Oh yea, and jontron gave a direct shoutout to /pol/ ([url=https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=jontron+ourguy] /ourguy/ is one of their memes[/url]), /pol/ is known for having enthusiastic discussions about how inferior black people are. Also they gave birth to the modern version of the alt-right (now with frogs and anime!), so that's a thing, lol

/our guy/ is a running shitpost that goes on throughout various parts of 4chan and has existed for years. That's not a /pol/ thing. Its just a term used to say "I think this person is cool. Does everyone else thing this person is cool and represents us?"

That's not a shoutout to /pol/ nor is it a /pol/ meme. Example of proof:

http://archive.4plebs.org/_/search/text/%2Fourguy%2F/order/asc/

Notice the date. Also keep in mind that this archive doesn't go back through all of 4chan's boards nor does it go all the way back to 4chan's inception, so there's more than even what this shows.

They literally admit that in their actual numbers. >_>  Take a look at what it is currently:

Owners: 6,131 ± 2,307

That part after?  '± 2,307'  That's their calculated margin or error.  'Plus or minus, 2307'.  As in 'It could be around 6131, but our available information doesn't allow much accuracy so it could be wrong by up to a third'.  Large fluctuations are just a result of the sampling data. You should never use SteamSpy for short term, granular information.  Use it only for broad, big picture perspectives.

Once again, I'm sorry. I was too quick to take such a poor interpretation of those number.

[kazooie]

5 minutes ago, Battlechili said:

/our guy/ is a running shitpost that goes on throughout various parts of 4chan and has existed for years. That's not a /pol/ thing. Its just a term used to say "I think this person is cool. Does everyone else thing this person is cool and represents us?"

That's not a shoutout to /pol/ nor is it a /pol/ meme. Example of proof:

http://archive.4plebs.org/_/search/text/%2Fourguy%2F/order/asc/

The fact that so many of his talking points align with that of common discussion on /pol/, and that /pol/ exploded when he pulled the /ourguy/ suggests that he was referencing that particular subchan. But yeah, if its prolific throughout 4chan, fair enough, I suppose.

[QT Melon]

The hyperbole is real. I guess that's why this will continue on.

[Toshabi]

37 minutes ago, QT Melon said:

The hyperbole is real. I guess that's why this will continue on.

Welcome to Politics according to behind-the-computer Politicians. 

 

But because your statement sounds a lot like the guys that spit in my food in the park, that means you're a big meanie!

[Zeke]

On March 26, 2017 at 5:00 PM, Socketosis said:

JonTron cited that comment on this article, which he shared on Twitter. It states "Poor white kids are less likely to go to prison than rich black kids." Whether this means rich black kids commit more crime than poor white kids is debatable. It's possible that it's a case of racial profiling that is giving these results, but I don't think this should be the accepted answer without more research. I am completely open to believing wealthy black kids commit more crimes than poor white kids because of cultural differences.

Its either due to possession (weed and underage drinking which is common among highschoolers), assault, or just ye olde racial profiling (especially if you are in a neighborhood that's disproportionate and some old lady thinks you are casing the neighborhood while walking your dog). That's only conjecture on my part since there's not much to go on in the link.

It makes me so warm inside to be thought of as a wolf that will eat your sheep if you aren't careful. :V

 

[Toshabi]

31 minutes ago, Zeke said:

It makes me so warm inside to be thought of as a wolf that will eat your sheep if you aren't careful. :V

 

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

I know this is completely unrelated to the subject at hand but this is the only thread talking about JonTron so this needs to be posted.

[kazooie]

ahhhhh, the times used to be simpler back in '64 

[Socketosis]

1 hour ago, kazooie said:

ahhhhh, the times used to be simpler back in '64 

I couldn't tell if they were real or not. Nope, fake.

[Zeke]

3 hours ago, Toshabi said:

 

 

Watch yourself. If your turn your back to me, I will drag you off into the jungles to eat you.

[Saxon]

Frankly removing somebody is the only reasonable recourse a company has left once that person begins disseminating hate speech.
(Yes, encouraging white Americans to believe that their culture is under threat from an immigrant menace and that there's something intrinsically criminal about people with African ancestry is unavoidably hate speech.)
However well the company managed this necessary step, there was always going to be a contingent who would insist on creating drama, so that they could use that drama in order to argue that the company made the wrong decision.

 

 

 

 

 

[kazooie]

9 hours ago, Socketosis said:

I couldn't tell if they were real or not. Nope, fake.

Fake? What? They're jokes based off of what jontron said, dude. Maybe you haven't watched the destiny debate, but he said the equivalent of all those things, lmao. That's the joke

[Saxon]

1 hour ago, kazooie said:

Fake? What? They're jokes based off of what jontron said, dude. Maybe you haven't watched the destiny debate, but he said the equivalent of all those things, lmao. That's the joke

I think the link Socks provided implied that some of Jontron's supporters think that the dialogue in that joke is real gameplay footage, and they therefore think it is a double standard for the company to reject Jontron for saying the same things?

I mean...you'd have to have fewer braincells than fingers to think those screenshots were real gameplay, but that is a rather accurate description of the kind of person who alleges a SJW conspiracy when a celebrity is sacked for hate speech.

 

 

 

To discuss the actual game though....man that lizard is hawt.

 

[AshleyAshes]

13 hours ago, Socketosis said:

I couldn't tell if they were real or not. Nope, fake.

Really...?  You couldn't tell on your own that that was satire and you needed outside help...?

[Socketosis]

7 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Really...?  You couldn't tell on your own that that was satire and you needed outside help...?

Yes. I'm retarded and need to die.

[kazooie]

5 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Really...?  You couldn't tell on your own that that was satire and you needed outside help...?

It is appearing more and more that white nationalist rhetoric has been normalized in many areas of the internet. It is entirely possible that people simply aren't seeing anything wrong with the statements in that piece of satire - hell, youtubers have been calling for people who criticize jontron to be punished

1 minute ago, Socketosis said:

Yes. I'm retarded and need to die.

Yea, cut the fake outrage, dude, no one has said that and you know it. If you fucked up and missed a joke, own it.

[Socketosis]

1 minute ago, kazooie said:

Yea, cut the fake outrage, dude, no one has said that and you know it. If you fucked up and missed a joke, own it.

Actually that wasn't fake.

[kazooie]

25 minutes ago, Socketosis said:

Actually that wasn't fake.

Oh, I assumed you were being facetious. In that case, you may wish to read people's posts more closely? Not sure what to say, dude.

[Nova]

Well the only thing that bugs me a bit is how people immediatly call playtonic SJWS. Yeah they were dicks and messed up but atleast they dont push people into suicide* cough*stevenuniversefandom

[QT Melon]

1 hour ago, Nova said:

Well the only thing that bugs me a bit is how people immediatly call playtonic SJWS. Yeah they were dicks and messed up but atleast they dont push people into suicide* cough*stevenuniversefandom

Well it just started, you never know these days considering the internet hate machine. People get caught up in their personal wars, and stake too much in being right. This is just the beginning, so I wouldn't be surprised if things continue to escalate. That's up to people however, so it could very well not and people can surprise you.

[Saxon]

On 26/03/2017 at 3:05 AM, MalletFace said:

Its actually gone down from around 6,000 to around 5,000 and then back up to 6,000 since it was announced he would be removed. It dropped from around 8,000 to around 5,000 in the days after he made those comments on the stream. About 6,000 owners is what the game tends to have, so the drops probably aren't entirely - or even mostly - related to those events anyway.

They didn't actually promise JonTron in a reward, so they aren't obligated by Kickstarter to fulfill it. As far as Kickstarter is concerned, backers only enter into a contract to get the rewards; backers don't pay for anything at all, and they certainly don't pay for anything external to the site.

One would have to successfully argue that JonTron is a fundamental element of one of the Yooka Laylee backing rewards to Kickstarter, which I seriously doubt is possible unless JonTron contributed as much as the 3,000 something dollar reward and was rewarded a voice appearance. He didn't, though.

 

It makes me think about how hypocritical the alt right is.

They often complain about a supposed conspiracy of Social Justice Warriors who unfairly damage people's businesses if they don't adhere to their political views. Take Pewdiepie as an example.

...but here the alt right is, trying to jeopardise a business because they are upset that it didn't reinforce their political views.

[QT Melon]

1 hour ago, Saxon said:

 

It makes me think about how hypocritical the alt right is.

They often complain about a supposed conspiracy of Social Justice Warriors who unfairly damage people's businesses if they don't adhere to their political views. Take Pewdiepie as an example.

...but here the alt right is, trying to jeopardise a business because they are upset that it didn't reinforce their political views.

I feel as if this conclusion is reaching.

I don't think it initially had to do with political views, and probably far fewer in number that you're proposing. It's just as likely there were just people who aren't invested in his political views but the personality, It's kinda like people who like celebrities like Tom Cruise or Travolta, they were heartthrobs or enjoyable actors, but I don't think that means everyone wants to become a Scientologist or is supportive f Scientology. I'm sure when there were those that saw the tweet or were upset at his removal may not have delved too deep in the controversy.

In all honestly who can blame them. Not many of them are going to sit through the entire debate, most are going to get their information from other internet journalists. So the really "informed' opinions about the issue are spotty or slanted at best, and more-so in their eyes, because the public probably doesn't want to go through the debate.

[Saxon]

13 minutes ago, QT Melon said:

I feel as if this conclusion is reaching.

I don't think it it initially had to do with political views, and probably far fewer in number that you're proposing. It's just as likely there were just people who aren't invested in his political views but the personality, It's kinda like people who like celebrities like Tom Cruise or Travolta, they were heartthrobs or enjoyable actors, but I don't think that means everyone wants to become a Scientologist or is supportive f Scientology. I'm sure when there were those that saw the tweet or were upset at his removal may not have delved too deep in the controversy.

In all honestly who can blame them. Not many of them are going to sit through the entire debate, most are going to get their information from other internet journalists. So the really "informed' opinions about the issue are spotty or slanted at best., and more-so in their eyes, because the public probably doesn't want to go through the debate.

I think you definitely have a point that it could also be a cult of personality, although many people who I know enjoy Jontron, and who defend him, have made it clear they agree with his political views or hold views which are actually more extreme than his.
By contrast I don't think I've ever spoken with a fan of Tom Cruise who actually believed in Scientology.

I think it also exists in a context of a litany of alt-right attempts to damage companies that they don't agree with. In the past couple of years they have encouraged people to boycott Rogue one, the Ghost Busters movie, Mad Max, Oreos, Pepsi, Kellogg's, Budweiser, Starbuck's, the Oscars, Nordstrom. The list goes on.

[QT Melon]

I don't think confirmation bias is the way to go at it either.

For one reason, Scientology....is very...weird in how you're supposed to acknowledge it or be a part of it. has it's own regulations I believe? I mean despite the outbursts from Cruise prior, that very strange religion is rather low key, compared to others that get media attention, and of course those religions are more mainstream.

It's also not one side that boycotts movies for political views or encourages a boycott. I think it's extremists from both sides causing problems. There's usually a sensible middle, but people are often prone to use the extreme to present a position more beneficial to their side of the debate. I am dismissive of people just labeling things quickly as SJW (I mean, really you actually think the faces in ME:A is an SJW conspiracy???) as I am of people quick to dismiss those that like using the "Racist" rhetoric when they feel their position is attacked. I do believe in the middle both sides do have points, but people like to use fearmongering as a tactic than to have actual dialog.

For example, on mass immigration, it's actually been documented that issues to occur because of cultural clashes. One could ironically use the documentary Blackfish,as an example. I mean we're talking about whales, but whales have their own culture. In ignorance we not only captured these animals, but forced them to "simply get along" when it's not really that easy. It takes time. The other more irritating point people tend to look over, is that sometimes the loudest critics about people who want to bemoan immigration policies/specifically the US ones, tend to hail from countries that also have stricter immigration policies as well or strict regulations on who can become a full citizen. I feel that if you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk. However this gets blatantly ignored.  Immigration in the US is particularly sensitive not only because of bringing in different cultures, but the fact that people will stick to certain geological points on a very large stretch of land. It's not look most people are moving to the Middle less sparse parts of the US, on top of the regular populace. That being said, how selective should the policy be? If there is a need for labor then they should be allowed in. Do we simply assume their contribution, or do we start thinking outside the box?

But enough with that I suppose. I stated prior that both Playtronic and Jontron didn't act very well in this whole debacle, and the fans reaction...was if anything expected due to how internet culture is today.

 

[Fossa]

I just looked him up now, and what I saw was a pasty, white, overweight guy who needed to shave: It made me think that he himself got made fun of for being fat throughout his life, and thus, sublimated this anger, hurt and outrage into other things: some creative, others, as attacks on minorities and a desire to hurt others back, to lob this or that grenade disguised in 'political' clothing. Or, that this could easily be one part of it: the nerd grown powerful, striking back.

They needed to give him more then the boot, and should have included a membership in Weight Watchers or Jenny Craig, and then, when he stepped off the treadmill, sent him to see a decent therapist, and put him out into the actual world for a while. If anything, he runs the risk of cementing that stereotype gamers already suffer from: Of being pasty, shut-in, overweight sorts, out of touch with the world. And here he is with the power to help change that.

(sidenote, I am feverish today, maybe 102 now, got this cold, but its odd, the thought you get in a fever state also, I mean no disrespect to anyone who has struggled with weight, or has in any way been ashamed of their bodies, I know how hard that can be)

 

 

 

 

 

[Socketosis]

42 minutes ago, Fossa-Boy said:

I just looked him up now, and what I saw was a pasty, white, overweight guy who needed to shave: It made me think that he himself got made fun of for being fat throughout his life, and thus, sublimated this anger, hurt and outrage into other things: some creative, others, as attacks on minorities and a desire to hurt others back, to lob this or that grenade disguised in 'political' clothing. Or, that this could easily be one part of it: the nerd grown powerful, striking back.

They needed to give him more then the boot, and should have included a membership in Weight Watchers or Jenny Craig, and then, when he stepped off the treadmill, sent him to see a decent therapist, and put him out into the actual world for a while. If anything, he runs the risk of cementing that stereotype gamers already suffer from: Of being pasty, shut-in, overweight sorts, out of touch with the world. And here he is with the power to help change that.

(sidenote, I am feverish today, maybe 102 now, got this cold, but its odd, the thought you get in a fever state also, I mean no disrespect to anyone who has struggled with weight, or has in any way been ashamed of their bodies, I know how hard that can be)

 

 

 

 

 

[Fossa]

4 minutes ago, Socketosis said:

Hey, I applied the most advanced psychological methods here! :V

And that track suit isn't fooling meeeee......

[Saxon]

3 hours ago, QT Melon said:

I don't think confirmation bias is the way to go at it either.

For one reason, Scientology....is very...weird in how you're supposed to acknowledge it or be a part of it. has it's own regulations I believe? I mean despite the outbursts from Cruise prior, that very strange religion is rather low key, compared to others that get media attention, and of course those religions are more mainstream.

It's also not one side that boycotts movies for political views or encourages a boycott. I think it's extremists from both sides causing problems. There's usually a sensible middle, but people are often prone to use the extreme to present a position more beneficial to their side of the debate. I am dismissive of people just labeling things quickly as SJW (I mean, really you actually think the faces in ME:A is an SJW conspiracy???) as I am of people quick to dismiss those that like using the "Racist" rhetoric when they feel their position is attacked. I do believe in the middle both sides do have points, but people like to use fearmongering as a tactic than to have actual dialog.

For example, on mass immigration, it's actually been documented that issues to occur because of cultural clashes. One could ironically use the documentary Blackfish,as an example. I mean we're talking about whales, but whales have their own culture. In ignorance we not only captured these animals, but forced them to "simply get along" when it's not really that easy. It takes time. The other more irritating point people tend to look over, is that sometimes the loudest critics about people who want to bemoan immigration policies/specifically the US ones, tend to hail from countries that also have stricter immigration policies as well or strict regulations on who can become a full citizen. I feel that if you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk. However this gets blatantly ignored.  Immigration in the US is particularly sensitive not only because of bringing in different cultures, but the fact that people will stick to certain geological points on a very large stretch of land. It's not look most people are moving to the Middle less sparse parts of the US, on top of the regular populace. That being said, how selective should the policy be? If there is a need for labor then they should be allowed in. Do we simply assume their contribution, or do we start thinking outside the box?

But enough with that I suppose. I stated prior that both Playtronic and Jontron didn't act very well in this whole debacle, and the fans reaction...was if anything expected due to how internet culture is today.

 

Given that one of those instructions to boycott actually came from the white house (Nordstrom), another from the President (Starbucks) and another from an organisation run by the White House chief strategist (Kellogg's) I don't think they can be dismissed as extreme cherry-picked examples of the alt-right's attitude. I think it shows that the alt right is quite content to try to damage businesses that don't toe the line, and I think it's justified to point out that this is a double standard- because many among the alt right allege that a conspiracy of social justice warriors are damaging businesses for political motives.

We should be careful to avoid middle ground fallacies. For example, just because there is a considerable number of people defending John doesn't imply there is a sensible middle ground where his ideas are regarded as 'questionable, but not racist.'
His ideas are unequivocally hate speech and fear mongering about non-white races, and a dystopian future in which whites might be an ethnic minority in the USA.

Companies' hands are forced when the celebrities they associate with begin promoting hate speech like that, because rejecting the celebrity is the only option they have avaialble. It's essentially a self-inflicted wound by the celebrity themselves. 

[kazooie]

1 hour ago, Saxon said:

We should be careful to avoid middle ground fallacies.

Yea, this was a point I was going to touch on. I've noticed a lot of youtube pundits taking the "middle ground" on the issue; i.e. not having an opinion. In this case, I would argue that such a position is fallacious - it is possible for a position to be just plain wrong. It is possible for a person to be wrong. It's tough when someone you admire is wrong, but too bad - life's tough sometimes, people are wrong sometimes.

 

For example, if an orange man argues that climate change is a myth perpetuated by the Chinese, that person is wrong. Saying that "maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle" only helps to give credibility to the misinformation.

if a creationist argues that the earth is 6,000 year old and that evolution is wrong, there is no "middle ground" here - saying "let's compromise and say that the earth is 4.5/2 billion years old" is equally incorrect.

If a member of the KKK argues that blacks are inherently inferior to whites, and that America must stay white, that person is wrong. Saying "well, maybe this argument has merit - lets let this guy speak at universities and give them airtime in the media" isn't a good thing to do. (By the way, every scientific study attempting to prove black people genetically inferior to other races have been debunked - it is generally agreed that systemic oppression, discrimination, and cycles of poverty are, for the most part, the root).

 

Jontron espoused white nationalist rhetoric for about an entire hour straight with Destiny. They spent twenty minutes discussing why Jontron thought america must stay white majority. He parroted white nationalist talking points nearly to a point at times. 

 

And before anyone gets all SJW-cuck on me, I'm not asking for people to not say words like "retard"/"faggot"/whatever. There are legitimate middle ground arguments in such discussions. I didn't care when Jontron got in trouble for saying "nigger" like six times in a row during game grumps. All I'm asking is for people not to espouse white supremacist ideology. 

 

If these pundits were saying things along the lines of "We condemn white nationalist ideology, and what Jontron said was wrong.", that would be fine! You don't need to call him names or label him, because its not about him, in the end, it's about condemning white supremacist ideology.

[Zerig]

leaked screenshot of cut content

[kazooie]

46 minutes ago, Zerig said:

leaked screenshot of cut content

Couldn't tell if this was real or not. Nope, fake.

[kazooie]

By the way, speaking of middle-ground fallacies, the "mass immigration" rhetoric is a complete myth. The US has an extremely restrictive immigration policy. It takes years upon years, along with a stringent set of educational requirements and a job lined up in order to even be considered. If you don't like the dinky infographic there, look up the US' immigration policies for yourself. 

 

e: Oh right, you know that muslim ban that kept getting struck down? The courts struck it down because five of the seven of those countries posed no threat. Hell, immigrants the last two (Iran and Somalia) were only responsible for three nondeadly attacks in total. The amount of fear mongering surrounding this nonsense is ridiculous.

[Saxon]

30 minutes ago, kazooie said:

By the way, speaking of middle-ground fallacies, the "mass immigration" rhetoric is a complete myth. The US has an extremely restrictive immigration policy. It takes years upon years, along with a stringent set of educational requirements and a job lined up in order to even be considered. If you don't like the dinky infographic there, look up the US' immigration policies for yourself. 

I've spoken with a few people who have experienced the route in light green. One Australian scientist I know is being allowed to work in the USA on the condition that he promises he won't try to stay there after his current work finishes.

Some scientists don't want US citizenship though, because they often routinely change their country of residence. Given that the US requires expatriates to pay taxes, this means that scientists, who have fairly small incomes to begin with, are sometimes expected to pay taxes towards 2 or more countries.

I've spoken with a French-Israeli scientist who said that if she was given citizenship to all of the countries she lives in, she would be expected to pay tax to the USA, France and Israel. (she doesn't have to pay it to the UK though, since the UK and France have an agreement that you only have to pay tax to one of them if you are a citizen of both).