Just grumbling.

[Red Lion]

Whelp it's that time again. Red Lion's Rambly Rants!

Straight up, I'm getting a little tired of people getting on my ass for not caring about their particular flavor of social justice. There's a reason I don't really feel motivated to care and it's a pretty simple one. Because I don't actually believe that THEY care. To clarify, I don't believe they care about their cause, I think what they really care about is having someone to attack or an enemy to fight. Most of the people who keep trying to rope me into political debates have a certain pattern they follow, and they follow it without fail. 

Step 1. Start off the discussion by attacking or deliberately TRYING to offend the other side. Not in any legitimate way, just "I like this because it makes white/straight/cis/males cry." Yeah, great, that's a fantastic way to get me to want to listen to you. This isn't just an SJW thing either. While I don't consider myself a feminist I'm not going to be compelled by someone who starts off their argument by claiming that every feminist is just mad because they can't get laid. You gotta give me more substance than that...

Step 2. They assume that I am in direct opposition to their beliefs. Socially I'm actually pretty liberal, though on the whole I tend to fall more in the center, pro-choice, pro-lgbt, in favor of diversity in the media. But because I don't want to hear people constantly shitting on men, white people or cisgendered people I must be on the other side of the debate. Yeah, sure "knock it off with the straight/white/man bashing" is equivalent to "I am anti-trans, anti-gay, and anti-women!" or the other side, because I am pro-LGBT and pro-choice I must be some filthy godless degenerate- well ok maybe there's some truth to that one >__>

Step 3. If an actual debate has spawned and they don't like what they're hearing, then it's time to pull out a meaningless buzzward. "Nazi! MANSPLAINING! Truscum!!" even the term "SJW" has started to lose its usefulness since people tend to apply it to all liberals and not just a specific extreme brand of keyboard warrior. Those words have been repeated ad nauseum to the point that they've practically become self-parodying. They're never used in any kind of legitimate way, it's basically just a "Get out of a debate free" card. When it's not that it's just another cheap way to try and discredit the opposition. 

Step 4. Refuse to acknowledge things like context or nuance and treat every subject like it's a matter of good vs evil. Feel free to strip the other side of their humanity and make them out to be some kind of cartoonishly heartless villain, incapable of reason and undeserving of even the most basic respect. Women who have abortions aren't people who experience anxiety, uncertainty or self-doubt, they just wanna kill babies! Right? And if you happen to be a straight, white, man well you're just oppressing everyone and you're doing it on purpose. 

Step 5. Treat ignorance like it's malice. Guy didn't know your preferred pronoun? Immediately go out of your way to treat him like shit. That'll get him to see your point of view! Never give anyone the benefit of the doubt. I'm not saying everyone can be swayed by a tempered and reasonable explanation but the ones who can't aren't anymore likely to change their minds if you start insulting them and accusing them of being assholes. So why alienate anyone who might actually listen? I've dealt with ignorance before and even stubbornness, I got someone to be more open about accepting transness by gradually exposing him to the trans community and actively trying to inform him. He still makes mistakes but he does try and he's made a lot of progress. If I'd just gone in, guns blazing and started treating him like he was an irredeemable asshole he probably would have just dug in his heals and gotten defensive. One thing these people don't seem to be aware of, if you constantly treat someone like they're inherently bad people they're either going to stop listening to you talk altogether or actively embrace the other side. I'm not going to deny that there are people that I think are beyond help, who can't be changed but these people are usually pretty extreme and there aren't that many of them. 

 

These people care about one thing and one thing only, lashing out. Maybe it's all built up frustration finally coming to a head, maybe it's bitterness. Often it stems from some need to feel superior which probably came from a feeling of powerlessness brought on by their environment blah blah blah patterns, cause and effect whatever. Somewhere they probably still care about the thing they're fighting for but it's pretty much just buried under a layer of self-righteous, angry, butt-trumpeting. Whatever the reason I'm starting to get to a point where I'm incapable of feeling anything but apathy anymore and I'm more mad that people yell at me for not caring and continue to try and talk to me long after I've expressed my disinterest, than I am at all the accusations of being a Nazi, a homophobe, and a misogynist. 

[Tyranno]

agreed; if someone at a young impressionable age knew only one or two people of [insert race here] who, by coincidence, were bad people, that guy may well grow up thinking all people of [insert race here] are bad; that guy would need help, not ridicule; gaining a racist perspective because of events said person can't control didn't cause said person to become an ogre or a demon or whatever these people think racists are

[Vallium]

Oh joy another SJW rant!

I never take that level of SJW bs seriously. I tell all of those people the exact same thing: "If you're going to generalize an entire section of people (straight/white/male) by a few of it's members, then you're just as bad as them, you've become the evil you despise so much" (You know, because judging the criminal blacks people, the social justice movement, and crazy feminists is a thing used to justify actual equality as garbage). 

The key element I find in all these us vs them movements is they have the worst of the other side seared into their brain, are terrified that they make up some majority of the populace, and then will attack the other side and remain bitter. (Also very common with religious vs nonreligious crowds)It's a neverending circle of two sides trying to push a center wall with force, trying to crush the other. 

If people learn to chill the fuck out and not attack each other over stupid shit, maybe use their brains, things would be better. If you stand back and not become the person you despise it wouldnt contribute to the cancerous cycle.

 

...as for sjw's getting angry that people dont know their pronouns, I find that the reasonable trans/genderfluid people wont bother anyone who doesnt use their pronouns, mainly because they know they dont pass, or something they use among friends who know them and dont expect new people to magically know. I think the most unreasonable trans* people who have this expectation for people to use their pronouns are warped in the worst circles of the sjw movement, where they deny their biological birth, as well as their physical defining traits, has any weight on people's perception of them or what it means to be male/female/other.

[Red Lion]

5 hours ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Oh joy another SJW rant!

I never take that level of SJW bs seriously. I tell all of those people the exact same thing: "If you're going to generalize an entire section of people (straight/white/male) by a few of it's members, then you're just as bad as them, you've become the evil you despise so much" (You know, because judging the criminal blacks people, the social justice movement, and crazy feminists is a thing used to justify actual equality as garbage). 

The key element I find in all these us vs them movements is they have the worst of the other side seared into their brain, are terrified that they make up some majority of the populace, and then will attack the other side and remain bitter. (Also very common with religious vs nonreligious crowds)It's a neverending circle of two sides trying to push a center wall with force, trying to crush the other. 

If people learn to chill the fuck out and not attack each other over stupid shit, maybe use their brains, things would be better. If you stand back and not become the person you despise it wouldnt contribute to the cancerous cycle.

 

...as for sjw's getting angry that people dont know their pronouns, I find that the reasonable trans/genderfluid people wont bother anyone who doesnt use their pronouns, mainly because they know they dont pass, or something they use among friends who know them and dont expect new people to magically know. I think the most unreasonable trans* people who have this expectation for people to use their pronouns are warped in the worst circles of the sjw movement, where they deny their biological birth, as well as their physical defining traits, has any weight on people's perception of them or what it means to be male/female/other.

To be fair it's not JUST SJWs, the far right is every bit as stupid and repulsive. If it seems like I'm leaning more critical on SJWs it's p much just because I encounter them in higher numbers than I do the opposite extreme.

It's mostly just a rant about people who aren't content to leave me the fuck alone but only really want me to pay attention so they can insult me or someone else. 


Also when it comes to people's pronouns, I feel like if you get it wrong and someone corrects you then you shouldn't be a dick and keep using the wrong pronoun. Making a mistake is forgivable, being genuinely transphobic isn't. Being early in transition or not passing isn't an excuse to keep calling someone who identifies as female "he". 

[Saxon]

Who are these people who are constantly ranting about how evil cis white gendered men are anyway? Where are you encountering them?

I never hear the internet stop complaining about them, but I haven't really come across one. Just as with those 'militant vegans'.

The most extreme 'SJW' people I've ever come across were students who didn't think it was fair for Iggy Azalea to appropriate black music, because she didn't share their oppression. Even those people didn't constantly complain about how evil cisgendered white men are though.

 

 

Also when it comes to people's pronouns, I feel like if you get it wrong and someone corrects you then you shouldn't be a dick and keep using the wrong pronoun. Making a mistake is forgivable, being genuinely transphobic isn't. Being early in transition or not passing isn't an excuse to keep calling someone who identifies as female "he". 

 

This is very reasonable.

[Red Lion]

9 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Who are these people who are constantly ranting about how evil cis white gendered men are anyway? Where are you encountering them?

I never hear the internet stop complaining about them, but I haven't really come across one. Just as with those 'militant vegans'.

The most extreme 'SJW' people I've ever come across were students who didn't think it was fair for Iggy Azalea to appropriate black music, because she didn't share their oppression. Even those people didn't constantly complain about how evil cisgendered white men are though.

 

This is very reasonable.

I live near a community college. It's full of 20-30 somethings who were raised in the bible belt and openly resent their conservative parents. Not that the conservatives get a pass either, they can be pretty rancid. A lot of them have taken up the trend of being "non-binary" because it's "shocking". And it is shocking...to the bible thumping baptists, some of whom are so steeped in tradition they don't like for women to wear pants or teenagers to listen to rock music.  

[Saxon]

4 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

I live near a community college. It's full of 20-30 somethings who were raised in the bible belt and openly resent their conservative parents. Not that the conservatives get a pass either, they can be pretty rancid. A lot of them have taken up the trend of being "non-binary" because it's "shocking". And it is shocking...to the bible thumping baptists, some of whom are so steeped in tradition they don't like for women to wear pants or teenagers to listen to rock music.  

Oh, I can completely understand now. If you are raised in that kind of setting you might veer to what you perceive to be the complete opposite.

(I still find it difficult to believe anybody is opposed to rock music or trousers).

It brings the rockstar Alice Cooper to mind; he changed his name to a woman's name *just* because he thought it would upset prudes.

 

[Red Lion]

Just now, Saxon said:

(I still find it difficult to believe anybody is opposed to rock music or trousers).

 

And yet, in 2017 there are still handfuls of them that are. They're pretty obviously a dying breed though, it's the older generation trying to cling to it's "values" and there are less and less of them every year. But the youngsters who started off rebelling are still rebelling even as the object of their rebellion is fading fast. So they turned to other targets because they've devoted their time and energy into their cause. I think it also aggravates them when they go to someone with a lot of fire and passion for a topic to find that the other person is only lukewarm. I saw the general vibe around here go from "Down with the right" to "You say you're a leftist but you don't care enough"

[Saxon]

6 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

And yet, in 2017 there are still handfuls of them that are. They're pretty obviously a dying breed though, it's the older generation trying to cling to it's "values" and there are less and less of them every year. But the youngsters who started off rebelling are still rebelling even as the object of their rebellion is fading fast. So they turned to other targets because they've devoted their time and energy into their cause. I think it also aggravates them when they go to someone with a lot of fire and passion for a topic to find that the other person is only lukewarm. I saw the general vibe around here go from "Down with the right" to "You say you're a leftist but you don't care enough"

My experience has been quite different, but I do go to a University that is famous for being a bastion of conservatism (although I've never really thought that this reputation was an accurate description of the place).

It would be good if the left and right (unfortunately these are treated as dichotomous factions in the USA) could have an attitude to one another more along the lines of 'let's find things we both agree on and secure those first'.

I would like to imagine that, among young people, even most of the right agree that a clean campus environment, fair prices for student lettings and campaigns to discourage sexual abuse/encourage reporting are appropriate things for a student union to want. (and they're all things which a lot of Campuses can improve)

 

[Red Lion]

1 minute ago, Saxon said:

My experience has been quite different, but I do go to a University that is famous for being a bastion of conservatism (although I've never really thought that this reputation was an accurate description of the place).

It would be good if the left and right (unfortunately these are treated as dichotomous factions in the USA) could have an attitude to one another more along the lines of 'let's find things we both agree on and secure those first'.

I would like to imagine that, among young people, even most of the right agree that a clean campus environment, fair prices for student lettings and campaigns to discourage sexual abuse/encourage reporting are appropriate things for a student union to want. (and they're all things which a lot of Campuses can improve)

 

I think it really is just a culture issue. In the southern USA I've seen extremism develop and spread as the "us vs them" mentality causes gaps to keep widening.

And to be fair, our government doesn't give a wet donkey shit about anyone who's on the lower rungs. The right wants your money, the left wants your votes. They both make empty promises to make life better but at the end of the day I'm still walking through a dying town full of meth heads, homelessness and prostitution. So I see this weird clashing scene where lgbt people want their rights, the liberal youth want to champion for minorities and the extremely impoverished want stability. There's a lot of "Check your privilage" followed by "What privilage? I ate CAT FOOD last night???" no one wants to be blamed for what they perceive as someone else's personal problems while they're poor, hungry, involved in drugs and prostitution or trying desperately to get a degree on government money so they can get the fuck out of here. So when the finger pointing starts on one side the other points back and the pendulum just keeps swinging. Most of the sjw college types are, ironically, some of the more well off people in this town. They come from the nice gated communities so when they start talking about privilege, or demanding compassion from people that they have never shown anything but contempt, tempers run high. 

And while MANY of the people here are ignorant and misguided, that's all they really are. Once they actually hear reason most of them are willing to change their minds, but they'll never get that far if the first reaction of the other side is to be as hostile and accusatory as they can be. 

[Wax]

Regarding your OP, what you're describing so commonplace now on social media, I've just sorta gotten used to it. I take solace in the fact that A: not all liberals are like that at all, and B: conservatives (not just alt-rightists) are guilty of the same thing: deliberately trying to offend, losing an argument so using the word 'snowflake' or 'cuck' etc. etc. Hopefully you can take solace in that too.

[Feelwell]

I believe in equality.

All people are equally terrible in their own special ways.

 

[Gator]

tbh i think the angry super-liberals are just bored and trying to claim oppression because it's the one thing they don't already have.

[Silo]

On 4/9/2017 at 7:01 PM, Wax said:

Regarding your OP, what you're describing so commonplace now on social media, I've just sorta gotten used to it. I take solace in the fact that A: not all liberals are like that at all, and B: conservatives (not just alt-rightists) are guilty of the same thing: deliberately trying to offend, losing an argument so using the word 'snowflake' or 'cuck' etc. etc. Hopefully you can take solace in that too.

In general, people are pretty bad at debating. If they're not completely misunderstanding the opponent's argument, they're preparing an onslaught of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic. Certain generalizations on groups doesn't help either.

But to be a hypocrite: people who do this are idiots and are incapable of making good decisions off of "argument"

[Wrecker]

I'm glad you're back, I missed your posts!

I haven't personally ran into anybody like that, though I never have really put myself out in an environment to interact with people that actually have that kind of perspective.

SJW's to me are kind of like people that are often spoken about but never dealt with, and I have no idea how I'd interact with one considering I've never actually met or so much as conversed with one.