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AshleyAshes

Rocky Mountain Fur Con Goes Full Heisenberg Device

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17 hours ago, AshleyAshes said:

https://furrytimes.net/2017/04/27/the-fandom-the-feared-itself-by-perri-rhoades/

So this article is trying to excuse the Furry Raiders and Foxler...

Wait, let's go back to that YouTube video and quote Foxler directly...

The Furry Times: Maybe Not That Reliable!

Perri is a furry Raider and doxxed people who left comments on Flayrah against Foxler.

Screenshot_20170429-120801.jpg

 

Also, got this here one of his journals about cybersex with 13 year olds:

https://archive.fo/vU5Gm

 

And I covered the Kahuki, Scorch, Foxler weird talk about sex and 14 year olds furry meets here on twitter:

https://twitter.com/DeoTasDevil/status/856994938722103297

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1 hour ago, Deo said:

Also, got this here one of his journals about cybersex with 13 year olds:

https://archive.fo/vU5Gm

Ah, I get it now.  When Foxler and the Raiders say 'The good old days of the furry fandom' they mean 'I want to go back to before I had enough notoriety to make everyone Google the fucked up things I've done over the years.  Because it's a LOT of fucked up things but when I was insignificant, nobody cared''.

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Yep, that sounds about right.

Also, "good old days" can refer to "the good old days when the standards for behavior were lower/in flux/not enforced."

And now we've come back to how "SJW" is now popular code for "meanies who call me out for gross behavior."

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1 hour ago, Troj said:

And now we've come back to how "SJW" is now popular code for "meanies who call me out for gross behavior."

Every time I see 'SJW' the image in my mind of the person saying it is only a minor variation from this:

215178115_ExTPi-2100x20000.jpg

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On 4/26/2017 at 7:05 PM, AshleyAshes said:

I don't think that's possible though.  The furry fandom isn't the size it is due to some missing secret sauce of popularity like large scale investment.  It's that the narrow definition of 'furry' is freaking boring to most people.  Most furry is just 'taking things and putting talking dogs in it'.  It's not a failure to capitalize, it's an inability to be capitalize.  It's not like cartoons with talking people is at all new, it literally goes back through the entire history of animation; 89 years ago a talking mouse was piloting a steam boat and the company behind that that now generates 56 billion dollars per year and they still put that talking mouse on on everything from pajama pants to new cartoon shorts.

'Furry' as a fandom just isn't something that has broad enough appeal.  It's not even the 'porn and the pervs' or any easy scapegoat like that.  It's just boring to most people.  You can't pump money into boring and make it mainstream popular.

So then...honest question: why does this fandom exist in the first place? Is it because there's enough humans on Earth that the most niche possible of interests will find a group to pursue and them and possibly form some sort of personal attachment to it? Or is it the porn? Eh, probably both.

I have to admit, I also find average furry art quite dull as well, and I don't see anything special about it. And sometimes people take their fursonas/OCs way, way too far. But when it's done well, it can be amazing. Same with suits.

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9 minutes ago, Calemeyr said:

So then...honest question: why does this fandom exist in the first place? Is it because there's enough humans on Earth that the most niche possible of interests will find a group to pursue and them and possibly form some sort of personal attachment to it? Or is it the porn? Eh, probably both.

Pretty much.  Just because 'Taking something and putting talking dogs in it' would be boring to many, to some they can appreciate it a great deal.  For anything there can be, there will people who will be a fan of it, even if it's not as many for one thing compared to another thing.  And there's nothing wrong with being a fan of something that's more niche.  Just being a fan of something is amazing, fandom great at it's core; It's a hobby, an interest, something to connect to others and communicate about.  Fandom is one of many things that people can use our leisure time and expendable income on and it can help us better enjoy our days.

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2 hours ago, Troj said:

And now we've come back to how "SJW" is now popular code for "meanies who call me out for gross behavior."

To a certain extent yes, I guess to me seeing this happen time and time again I'm more frustrated with the community on not doing the right thing. Yes the guy is gross, but it seems that people use his grossness for fodder, not actually doing anything about it, than this "awareness" which comes off all kinds of fake and not encouraging actual changes.

Yeah blast me for it I guess, but it's not a social change, where I can understand trying to get some changes done for social good. A lot of times it end up interfering with actual attempts at getting real justice done because it's been passed around so much, people having to put their stamp of opinion on it and calling it a "day" for good "Hey I called him out on his behavior!" ok....but did you encourage the victims to come forward, did you support the people who it may have harmed? No? Then what the fuck guys?

"Well it's not like I'll meet them" yeah but it's not like they may also want to come forward as info is passed 50 ways to Sunday and would probably want to make them hide more because they already had to deal with horribleness of one situation, now they have to see it over and over again.

I mean personally if I was one of the victims, you'd be just another side of asshole, it's not like this shows any remorse or support.

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7 minutes ago, QT Melon said:

To a certain extent yes, I guess to me seeing this happen time and time again I'm more frustrated with the community on not doing the right thing. Yes the guy is gross, but it seems that people use his grossness for fodder, not actually doing anything about it, than this "awareness" which comes off all kinds of fake and not encouraging actual changes.

Yeah blast me for it I guess, but it's not a social change, where I can understand trying to get some changes done for social good. A lot of times it end up interfering with actual attempts at getting real justice done because it's been passed around so much, people having to put their stamp of opinion on it and calling it a "day" for good "Hey I called him out on his behavior!" ok....but did you encourage the victims to come forward, did you support the people who it may have harmed? No? Then what the fuck guys?

"Well it's not like I'll meet them" yeah but it's not like they may also want to come forward as info is passed 50 ways to Sunday and would probably want to make them hide more because they already had to deal with horribleness of one situation, now they have to see it over and over again.

I mean personally if I was one of the victims, you'd be just another side of asshole, it's not like this shows any remorse or support.

I think it's both.  On the one hand all of this fodder most certainly has an effect.  Foxler and the Raiders now have a certain reputation that had seriously weakened their influence, particularly in the Colorado area.  While there will be die hard defenders always, if you look at the arguments, the Raider's aren't doing so well PR wise.  This leaves the Raiders with two issues, people either seem them as ideologically distasteful or more practically, shit disturbers who will bring trouble.  This is not a rep they wanted, they wanted to have their cake and eat it too, to troll and be popular, and the 'popular' thing is tightening in to just be a small circle while the trolling thing just harms the desire for popularity.  I have to admit, they were once pulling it off pretty well, they had a con wrapped up pretty tight and probably felt invincible for a while but now it's all blown up.

Further more, they have a problem with any new con happening in the area.  Any new con is going to need some kind of plan to deal with the Furry Raiders.  This doesn't even require any kind of 'Anti-Raider/Nazi' stance from the get go, but the simple and practical fact that the Raiders WILL attempt to inject themselves in any capacity into a new area convention and they will bring this fight with them for the ride, a fight that the convention knows full well is bad for business.  The Raiders don't even have to do much beyond announce their 'Love And Freedom Sieg Heil' message will be attending the con in force and there will be pushback from other furries.  In short, the Raiders made themselves radioactive.  They are now a problem just by being in the same space as other organizations.

I certainly think that people are more aware, I don't think we'd have seen this same pushback some years ago, but at the same time as people become more culturally divided, a side in support of the 'Freedom Of the Radiers' or whatever also exists more strongly than it would have years ago.  But I'll also conceed that it's not ALL that, it's also that not only were the Raider's shit disturbing trolls, it's that they were shit disturbing trolls who opted for some particularly easy to target iconography.  If you're going to be an asshole who just HAPPENS to dress like a Nazi for kicks, people who think you're an asshole will probably spray paint 'Nazi' on your garage door rather than debate you.  It keeps things simple.

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Yep--there's been a lot of "awareness-spreading," and not a lot of action. Lots of people don't know how to act, or are afraid to act, or aren't in a position to act, after all.

I hope Ashley is right that they've bitten off more than they can chew where cultivating their "badboy rap" is concerned.

Realistically, they are radioactive--and that's a good word, actually---because bottom line, wherever they go, chaos and drama inevitably follow.

It'd be great if peripheral or casual members increasingly decided that belonging to the group wasn't worth the drama and quit, until only the few diehards remained. (I really doubt that any of the basically-non-toxic people would have the chutzpah to take charge and kick the troublemakers out, so there's no point in imagining that scenario.) I worry about people being so mean to casual members that the opposite will happen, though.

 

 

 

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Honestly cons just need to have the resolute will to actually enforce something of a standard of conduct for the people attending.

-No racially charged imagery or formal representation of groups assosciated with with such behavior (sadly can't say members can't attend although I think that would be perfect).

-No sex offenders left in a position of power in convention leadership which is supposed to help prevent things like...  idk rape at the convention. I have a very very close person to me who was falsely accused of some pretty rank stuff and suffered alor for it and still continues to suffer from it long after.... but even they would understand the neccesity of such an action.

 

Perhaps a good solution would be to host these conventions in settings that are well prepared to deal with people in a forthright manner rather than let these issues go on with such a terrible lienancy?

 

Take Oklacon, used to go to this convention and generally make an idiot of myself as I am wont to do. The convention was in a state park which placed the ultimate decision for pretty much anything security or basic-human-decency wise in the hands of park rangers.

Now, it was a point of contention between the con and the park.... but at the same time they had people going around making sure minors weren't getting drunk with creepy old men, that nobody was gas-bombing others, that people weren't wearing fucking sex toys in public and that sex offenders weren't grooming kids. 

I'd say that's a pretty damn good thing even though it is an unpopular opinion. Sure, the con ended up getting cancelled but it's not the park rangers that were to blame for three people fucking on the grass in a public space.

 

just.... if furries don't have the backbone to manage their own cons atleast export it to someone who can ensure the safety and well being of those involved.

 

Because if security fails to do so, practically your only choice would be to call the cops and then you'd have people getting shot for trying to hug eachother or some other bullshit.

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29 minutes ago, Johanna Waya said:

-No sex offenders left in a position of power in convention leadership

If the leadership has sex offenders in it's ranks, it'll probably NOT make a stance against sex offenders being in the leadership what with the sex offenders being the leadership. :P

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2 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

If the leadership has sex offenders in it's ranks, it'll probably NOT make a stance against sex offenders being in the leadership what with the sex offenders being the leadership. :P

Is it just me or do I sense the OG fandom was just a bunch of creepy men for the most part?

I mean it seems like most of the really rapey people aren't exactly part of the younger fandom?

 

Maybe I'm just thinking too much into it.

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24 minutes ago, Johanna Waya said:

I mean it seems like most of the really rapey people aren't exactly part of the younger fandom?

Maybe we're less likely to notice their red-flag rapey behaviors?

30 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

If the leadership has sex offenders in it's ranks, it'll probably NOT make a stance against sex offenders being in the leadership what with the sex offenders being the leadership. :P

Thoughts on what people should do if a con has unsavory people on the board? That's a controversial one.

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1 minute ago, Troj said:

Thoughts on what people should do if a con has unsavory people on the board? That's a controversial one.

Not much.  Depending on the power structure, the individual may be untouchable and if they are vulnerable the other leadership members may be defensive of the individual.  I'd say 'Public shaming may yield a public result' but even RMFC is a prime example of how that 'worked' but in reality 'totally didn't', it was all just pretend.

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Well, and in California, PAWcon was created by people who had issues with the con chair of FC--and then,people dug up dirt on the con chair of PAWcon, so there was a period where the Northern California con you attended was taken as proof that you were either a domestic abuse apologist or whatever was wrong with PAWcon's chair.

That appears to have largely blown over, with nothing achieved.

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Maybe just do a basic back-ground check on someone before you put them in charge of such important things?

I mean if their job was completely irrelevant to making a good enviroment for other people like cooking, that is arguably okay. In charge of a con, no.

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41 minutes ago, Johanna Waya said:

Maybe just do a basic back-ground check on someone before you put them in charge of such important things?

1) Background checks cost money

2) Private background check services can be unreliable in both false positives and false negatives.  Also not all criminal convictions even appear on background checks but this depends on the many circumstances of the conviction, the punishment, and what legal actions were take to deal with one's criminal record after the fact.

3) Upper convention staff are typically all friendly with each other, usually friends or recommendations by friends.  It's a lot of 'buddy buddy' and it's even likely that some other leadership involved already knows but 'don't care'.  (Again, just like RMFC)  It's like asking 'What smart things can you ask an idiot to do to keep them from being an idiot?' You can't, they're an idiot, an idiot is going to idiot.

4) There are only rare and obscure cases of such individuals being involved in high level convention staff, while they stick out blatantly, you're talking about a pretty extreme response to something that basically 'never' happens.

I get what you're trying to say but such a thing is over-reactive.  It's like that episode of the Simpsons where one bear wondering into town results in a 'Bear Patrol' on the streets, even with a B-2 Spirit stealth bomber patrolling in the sky.

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[MOD NOTE]

If you have to post Facebook screenshots, please blur out the names and the profile pic. 

Even if it is some stupid furry name, please respect their privacy. 

[Mod Note]

23 hours ago, Deo said:

Perri is a furry Raider and doxxed people who left comments on Flayrah against Foxler.

Wasn't Perri on FAF for awhile?

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After listening to both sides, it seems to me that this fiasco is largely based on a misunderstanding. I don't think Foxler is a Nazi, but I do think Deo's concerns are valid. Either way, something clearly needs to be done about how these conventions are managed.

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32 minutes ago, Xaende said:

After listening to both sides, it seems to me that this fiasco is largely based on a misunderstanding. I don't think Foxler is a Nazi, but I do think Deo's concerns are valid. Either way, something clearly needs to be done about how these conventions are managed.

Foxler is "Fox Hitler". That's where the name comes from. The guy's an alt right goblin. Ans possibly a pedophile based on that party inviting underage people.

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12 minutes ago, Calemeyr said:

Foxler is "Fox Hitler". That's where the name comes from. The guy's an alt right goblin. Ans possibly a pedophile based on that party inviting underage people.

He's a an attention whore. That explains the name and some of his antics. He just doesn't strike me as an actual Nazi sympathizer.

Let's hope he isn't a pedophile. The fandom should have zero tolerance for that kind of thing.

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^^Well, or he's a Nazi sympathizer in the same sense that a 12-year-old boy thinks that he's be a SUPER BOSS SPACE MARINE and that HE COULD'VE TAKEN THOSE TERRORISTS NO PROBLEM.

Anywho, that's been done to death as it is, and Ashley's right that it isn't really important.

Quote

Let's hope he isn't a pedophile. The fandom should have zero tolerance for that kind of thing.

It SHOULD, but history's shown that, unfortunately....

Oh, and at the risk of conjuring up unfortunate mental images, rabbit hole goes deeper, it would appear.

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On 30/04/2017 at 1:43 AM, Troj said:

Thoughts on what people should do if a con has unsavory people on the board? That's a controversial one.

The solution is simple: if being a sovcit or a nazi or whatever is bad from an event-running perspective, it'll manifest as a competitive disadvantage. This could have been solved by starting a new convention without those disadvantages and out-competing them. Wouldn't even have to say why; just "we think there's room for two furry conventions in Denver" - which was probably true anyway.

Of course, the flip side is that the predilections of the board might not cause meaningful problems. In which case… it wouldn't have been justified to take action, and you end up with two good events. Win-win? I mean, unless your goal is "doing the right thing" - but the reality is that Denver was going to have a furry convention this year, and now it isn't, which seems an non-optimal outcome.

In this case there was clearly dysfunction at the board level, as shown by the fact that they couldn't keep (or restore) their 501(c)3 registration, so this approach might have provided a smoother transition than what actually went down, along the lines of ConFurence -> {Further Confusion, Califur}. [Not that I'm wedded to the idea that furry events need to be charities - in fact other non-profit models are probably a better fit - but if you're saying you are, and aren't, that's a big fail, and something which could be turned into a competitive advantage with the right marketing.]

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On 4/29/2017 at 5:43 PM, Troj said:

Thoughts on what people should do if a con has unsavory people on the board? That's a controversial one.

Honestly reminds me of dragoneer.

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33 minutes ago, Aeon said:

Honestly reminds me of dragoneer.

In that case, I'd suggest you help to build, staff, or fund a competing furry art community. Like I did.

The fandom benefits far more from attempts to compete with Fur Affinity than it does from attempts to remove its leadership.

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38 minutes ago, Aeon said:

Honestly reminds me of dragoneer.

To be fair, Dragoneer isn't bad in comparison to the deplorables on the RMFC board. It's like comparing Jeb Bush to Kim Jong Un. 

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50 minutes ago, Aeon said:

Honestly reminds me of dragoneer.

Let's not ride the hyperbole train, it's a wreck.

It's not like anyone is forced to use FA, or visit a con. It's the community who decides where to stay and go. It's their fault for being weak minded, or it's not an issue enough for them to care about some of the politics. If you want something better, it's up to like minded individuals to work together to make something better. Finger pointing only goes so far.

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everyone involved is fucking retarded and should feel bad lmao

On 29/04/2017 at 11:09 AM, Deo said:

Words

it's hard to take anyone who talks about "punching nazis" seriously imo

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On 5/2/2017 at 11:07 PM, PastryOfApathy said:

everyone involved is fucking retarded and should feel bad lmao

it's hard to take anyone who talks about "punching nazis" seriously imo

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with punching nazis, especially if they have punchable faces. Too bad we have assault laws. 

 

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56 minutes ago, Calemeyr said:

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with punching nazis, especially if they have punchable faces. Too bad we have assault laws. 

 

 

tumblr_inline_okn9qz7Ie21r76766_540.jpg.b0201e9a25a078735653f4014f046b7e.jpg

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1 minute ago, Zeke said:

tumblr_inline_okn9qz7Ie21r76766_540.jpg.b0201e9a25a078735653f4014f046b7e.jpg

That's a "so much for the tolerant left" hook.

Seriously, though, this train wreck is starting to fall onto the side track of Punchable Face magazine subscriptions.

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4 hours ago, ArielMT said:

That's a "so much for the tolerant left" hook.

 

 

I was saving that image for an appropriate occasion.

 

On April 29, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Troj said:

Yep, that sounds about right.

Also, "good old days" can refer to "the good old days when the standards for behavior were lower/in flux/not enforced."

And now we've come back to how "SJW" is now popular code for "meanies who call me out for gross behavior."

Lol the good old Days. 

They mean when people thought 2 was the next Cedric the Entertainer and the Furry fandom was that creepy kid in class that you wanted to punch?

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Not entirely related, though because it possibly involves the Furry Raiders and a fur con I'm including it here.

There's a claim on the Anthrocon FB group that there were people on the Alt-Right Furry discord to shut down Anthrocon by using PETA. This image was posted:
19453141_10155280477920490_3396899305193275156_o.thumb.jpg.e7da3ccb8e7de6b7752a9042915141c9.jpg

Not sure if this is real, but many people are acting like it is. Could just be some trolls. Not sure exactly why A) they'd want to shut it down if they're furs themselves, and B) how PETA would accomplish that.

Some guy in the group is claiming to be a part of the furry raiders (he has that furry raiders paw symbol on his account), claims they have nothing to do with it, and says it's Deo and her Antifa friends instead. He's also running around the post calling everyone neckbeards, posting anti-feminist and triggered memes, and basically being autistic as shit. He also claims that anyone who doesn't agree with him must be a pedophile. Even if he's telling the truth he's so whiny and immature it's hard to support him.

Someone also mentioned that someone tried to shut down Califur earlier this year by saying that babyfurs were pedophiles aligned with NAMBLA. This apparently didn't work and the con happened as normal. Here's a quote from the Califur wiki:

Quote

With preparation weeks prior by third parties, within 24 to 48 hours before the start of the event, the venue was flooded by calls (example) and VOIP messages posing either as from TV reporters to Law Enforcement personnel regarding a panel about Babyfurs and BDSM.

The seriousness of the tone of the messages prompted the venue to increase the security fee by $25,000 and the demand for the con to strike the babyfur panel. Also impacting the venue's concerns was a nearby PETA protest, which ended up being unrelated to the convention, but caused law enforcement to be on the scene of the convention.[clarify] Califur had the choice of canceling the con but went ahead and agreed to the terms.[5]

It was determined later that calls to the hotel were made by members of the AltFurry Discord, a Discord chat group for "Alt Furries", furries who aligned themselves with alt-right ideologies and movements.[6][7] Alt Furry's management first tried to deny their involvement[8] or downplay their involvement.[9]

The attack was based on an Alt Furry Discord consensus that the babyfur panel was pedophilic in nature,[citation needed] and the group's founder, Len Gilbert/Casey Hoerth/Furred Reich, has encouraged such tactics on his YouTube channel, since deleted.[citation needed]

Some[who?] have mistakenly reported that the calls were part of a campaign by the Furry Raiders,[citation needed] due to the fact that Raiders leader, Foxler Nightfire, is associated both with the alt-right and with the AltFurry Discord,[citation needed] but the groups have largely different leadership, membership, and structure.

The article does note that AltFurry discord may not be associated with the Furry Raiders, even if there's possibly some overlap. Not sure why furs want to shut down furries.

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It wouldn't be the first time someone tries to get AC shut down. Unless someone makes bomb threats (Which I hope not), then it won't get shut down.

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It's really stupid if people are masquerading as members of Antifa or the  Raiders or whomever else to prove that Antifa or the Raiders are a threat. But, given that non-furries do that, too, it's not all that surprising.

A friend of mine shared these things from Deo's Twitter feed, the main thing being the excerpt of the phone call made to Califur:

DogpatchPress rip of the call uploaded to Youtube

Conversation thread

 

 

 

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It sure is great that members of the furry fandom has found a way to organize and try to shut down conventions.  Cause my god, we know how this fandom hate's it's conventions.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go burn down my local grocery store, because I do hate the idea of a building full of tasty food and snacks.

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