Rant: School Shootings

[Ayattar]

And here if we encounter a viper we just go around, instead of shooting it.

Like if I remember right in Argentina where the economies collapsed and the closest thing to their post-apocalyptic wet dream actually happened, most of the people who died where fucking survivalists hiding in the middle of bumfuck nowhere. Apparently as it turns out, having more ammo than the fucking army and loads of big scary guns doesn't mean anything when armed gangs bust in your door at 3 in the morning while your busy dreaming about how 'sooper badazz' you look right now.

As Jugoslavian war showed, the most valuable thing at times of war is a toilet paper. Not guns.

[PastryOfApathy]

And here if we encounter a viper we just go around, instead of shooting it.

As Jugoslavian war showed, the most valuable thing at times of war is a toilet paper. Not guns.

Exactly, the road to success in the post-apocalypse is paved with toilet paper. Now if you excuse me, it's time to give my BJ's membership a workout.

[Luka]

So who's the media gonna blame now? Itself for exposing the gunmen in these kinds of incidents? Hm...

[Zaraphayx]

Dear inferior minds,

Maybe consider it should be the responsibility of the parents of young people to not allow their dependent crotchspawn (legally of age or not) with a history of psychological instability and poor socialization to amass a personal armory under their own roof.

Just a thought.

 

[Rukh Whitefang]

I see the media isn't reporting who the shooter was targeting. Does that just not matter?

[Gamedog]

I guess nobody is paying attention to whats going on in Chicago. This past May 300 people were shot, and 37 were killed, over Memorial weekend 40 people were shot. And this past weekend in a 15 hour period 50 people were shot.

why dont the gangs that are shooting each other with illegally obtained guns follow the law?!?!??!?!

ban guns! that will stop them!

[Kaizy]

Blub... Glub...

You are confusing Sweden and Switzerland. 

Swedish people come from Sweden.

Swiss people come from Switzerland. 

That's my bad.

[Rukh Whitefang]

why dont the gangs that are shooting each other with illegally obtained guns follow the law?!?!??!?!

ban guns! that will stop them!

[Kaizy]

I see the media isn't reporting who the shooter was targeting. Does that just not matter?

The media cares more about the shooter than the victims. This is just a common thing in media these days and it's just disgusting.

[Rukh Whitefang]

I forgot to add they are also not reporting that an army service member (can't remember if he was retired from service or not) barricaded a classroom door with his body and took 7 rounds saving other peoples lives. Also he is alive and recovering in the hospital. That guy deserves a metal.

[Kinare]

2layz2reed, so sorry if anyone else mentioned this, but I think Colbert nailed the issue last night. He basically said something about how these tragedies keep happening and people keep saying we need to do something different, but no one ever fucking does anything. The gun nuts are unfortunately too loud right now, and since they have guns no one is exactly going to fight them on it. I wonder how many more innocent lives must be taken for people to realize something has to give? I'm not saying take away all guns period and neither is the majority, but that's what it's blown up to be. I just want to make it harder for criminals and unstable people to get them. It will never be something we can fully prevent, only a fool would think otherwise... but we can reduce it.

[Kaizy]

I forgot to add they are also not reporting that an army service member (can't remember if he was retired from service or not) barricaded a classroom door with his body and took 7 rounds saving other peoples lives. Also he is alive and recovering in the hospital. That guy deserves a metal.

Yeah, but the media can't sensationalize that in their reports and make exclusive new coverage of it and send ratings through the roof. That's why the shooters/killers in these stories always get so much coverage, they only care about ratings, they couldn't care less about the victims because they're not "profitable".

[Rukh Whitefang]

Yeah, but the media can't sensationalize that in their reports and make exclusive new coverage of it and send ratings through the roof. That's why the shooters/killers in these stories always get so much coverage, they only care about ratings, they couldn't care less about the victims because they're not "profitable".

Which then shows other people that the shooter gets immortalized and here we begin the cycle again...

[Vae]

The fact that these are so frequently happening at schools I think speaks less on our gun control, and even our media, and more on just how much we're fucking our kids' minds with stress, to the point where they are wildly unstable and feel it's worth ending other people's lives (and sometimes their own) over "small" problems.

Gotta decide your major in highschool.
Gotta be perfect.
Gotta have everything decided and be perfect before you've even left highschool, or you're going to be fucked on debt.
And even then, haha, good luck, kid. Even a degree won't save you from the job market.
Hahaha.
Good fucking luck.

Honestly, with those ideas in mind, I'm really not surprised that some of these kids break.

[Conker]

It's my understanding that those signs aren't to deter criminals but to stop random people who think they should have a gun on them all day, every day, from carrying it into stores. Because yeah, if a dude wants to rob you at gunpoint, they aren't going to listen to that sign.

[Kaizy]

Which then shows other people that the shooter gets immortalized and here we begin the cycle again...

Exactly. I think Roger Ebert had talked about this same thing after Columbine. It's a serious issue because these troubled kids see all the exclusive stories of shooters and how they're essentially "glorified" through constant news reports, articles, and late night stories, and they see this as a possible outlet for their problems. The media has a habit of making everything worse.

[Rukh Whitefang]

It's my understanding that those signs aren't to deter criminals but to stop random people who think they should have a gun on them all day, every day, from carrying it into stores. Because yeah, if a dude wants to rob you at gunpoint, they aren't going to listen to that sign.

Its my opinion that one of the reasons school mass shootings occur is because they are gun free zones. Its a soft target where maximum amount of carnage can be made with limited resources.
 I remember the L.A bank robbery that was on tv in the early 90s(?) where the suspects outgunned and out armored the police. That, was scary to watch. To see 2-3 heavily armed and armored men take on over a dozen cops and walk away.

The carnage that can be done in the time it takes for the police to arrive could be horrific. All because a school is an extremely soft target with a huge population. And has a guarantee of huge murder numbers because very few people if any could stop a person.

 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Rukh Whitefang

[Conker]

Its my opinion that one of the reasons school mass shootings occur is because they are gun free zones. Its a soft target where maximum amount of carnage can be made with limited resources.

I feel like adding guns and armed guards or armed teachers to a school setting for protection is addressing a symptom and not the problem itself. It really shouldn't have to come to that. Plus, I question how well it would work at all.

I'm not exactly well read on the topic enough to say anything more than that. I look at these stories and kinda shake my head because it's sad and I shouldn't be desensitized to it.

[Rukh Whitefang]

I feel like adding guns and armed guards or armed teachers to a school setting for protection is addressing a symptom and not the problem itself. It really shouldn't have to come to that. Plus, I question how well it would work at all.

I'm not exactly well read on the topic enough to say anything more than that. I look at these stories and kinda shake my head because it's sad and I shouldn't be desensitized to it.

Oh I agree that it never should have come to this point but hindsight is 20/20. Its not a fix but a band-aid, and one that could prevent a mass shooting from happening. But its also unrealistic to have trained armed personnel in every single school in the country.

[Wolflich]

Its my opinion that one of the reasons school mass shootings occur is because they are gun free zones. Its a soft target where maximum amount of carnage can be made with limited resources.

I don't know if it's just the ones I see on the news but it seems like when it's at a school then the attacker is usually someone who goes there as well, so I think it's more than just making easy targets. Lots of places make easy targets, because people don't usually congregate under the assumption that someone is going to start killing them all: like there was that other guy who wanted a bunch of people in one place and went to a theatre instead. And yet that seems rarer.

[Rukh Whitefang]

I tend to think worse case scenario but I want to paint a horrible picture. My old high school is not secured. As in I don't have to pass through the front office to get in the building (the middle school does however and the main doors are locked). The front door is about 50 feet or less from the cafeteria. This is going to look bad but again I operate in whats the worse case scenario.

Maximum damage time frame: school lunch hour, up to 300+ students will be eating lunch in one area.

Start with a 12 gauge saiga shotgun with trigger modification (not legal) making it full auto. Get the 100 round drum magazine and use buckshot for maximum spread. Have an AR (again using a trigger mod to make it full auto) either using .556 or 7.62 ammunition. Can carry up to 8 30 round mags without being encumbered/unable to effectively move. With just those 2 guns there is 300 rounds of ammo. But you can also  carry 2 handguns in the waistband as well. Two .45 ACPs will work. Get the 30 round clips and the shoulder straps that allow you to carry 8 full clips and you have 10 30 round clips (2 already loaded) and another 300 rounds of ammo. Thats 600 rounds of ammunition. Throw in some home made smoke grenades (can carry 4 or so).  Lets not forget about armor. Flak jacket and/or kevlar vest/jacket (some heavy armor) with kevlar woven combat pants with armor plates and a combat grade helmet. All the while carrying a cyanide pill in your cheek for an in case things go sour faster than planned.

It will take the cops around 10 minutes to get to the school. And you have a cafeteria with 300+ students in it with 600 rounds of ammunition. The amount of carnage that could take place would be staggering. Plus depending on how it unfolds the person could have an extremely long firefight with the police or take hostages.

Thats what runs through my head when I hear of a mass school shooting. Our schools are way, way to vulnerable.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Rukh Whitefang
grammer

[Gamedog]

If you want to murder someone and you live in an area with open carry, where are you going to perform your shoot-up?

- gun free zone

- in public

 

easy fuckin choice. shooters choose areas where people wont be able to fight back. some dickweed shot up parliament in ontario and theyre JUST NOW arming their fucking guards.

[Zaraphayx]

Some of you need to read up on Occam's Razor and realize how fucking dumb you sound.

Kids don't shoot up schools because they're "gun-free zones" they shoot up school because they spent literally all their time there and see it and the people there as a major source of their misery.

The fact that so many of you rationalize all this shit through the filter of your political beliefs is why "nothing will ever get done" about it.

Stay pleb, inferior minds.

I tend to think worse case scenario but I want to paint a horrible picture. My old high school is not secured. As in I don't have to pass through the front office to get in the building (the middle school does however and the main doors are locked). The front door is about 50 feet or less from the cafeteria. This is going to look bad but again I operate in whats the worse case scenario.

Maximum damage time frame: school lunch hour, up to 300+ students will be eating lunch in one area.

Start with a 12 gauge saiga shotgun with trigger modification (not legal) making it full auto. Get the 100 round drum magazine and use buckshot for maximum spread. Have an AR (again using a trigger mod to make it full auto) either using .556 or 7.62 ammunition. Can carry up to 8 30 round mags without being encumbered/unable to effectively move. With just those 2 guns there is 300 rounds of ammo. But you can also  carry 2 handguns in the waistband as well. Two .45 ACPs will work. Get the 30 round clips and the shoulder straps that allow you to carry 8 full clips and you have 10 30 round clips (2 already loaded) and another 300 rounds of ammo. Thats 600 rounds of ammunition. Throw in some home made smoke grenades (can carry 4 or so).  Lets not forget about armor. Flak jacket and/or kevlar vest/jacket (some heavy armor) with kevlar woven combat pants with armor plates and a combat grade helmet. All the while carrying a cyanide pill in your cheek for an in case things go sour faster than planned.

It will take the cops around 10 minutes to get to the school. And you have a cafeteria with 300+ students in it with 600 rounds of ammunition. The amount of carnage that could take place would be staggering. Plus depending on how it unfolds the person could have an extremely long firefight with the police or take hostages.

Thats what runs through my head when I hear of a mass school shooting. Our schools are way, way to vulnerable.

lmao at this nerd literally planning a school shooting like it's a raid boss in WoW.

Consider that so many school shootings are objectively failures because they're little more than premeditated acts of rage fueled by revenge fantasies of young adults.

If you want to murder someone and you live in an area with open carry, where are you going to perform your shoot-up?

- gun free zone

- in public

 

easy fuckin choice. shooters choose areas where people wont be able to fight back. some dickweed shot up parliament in ontario and theyre JUST NOW arming their fucking guards.

I'm sure he shot up Parliament because it was a gun-free zone and not because he was unhinged and hated the government.

[Kaizy]

Some of you need to read up on Occam's Razor and realize how fucking dumb you sound.

Kids don't shoot up schools because they're "gun-free zones" they shoot up school because they spent literally all their time there and see it and the people there as a major source of their misery.

The fact that so many of you rationalize all this shit through the filter of your political beliefs is why "nothing will ever get done" about it.

Stay pleb, inferior minds.

Yeah this is also true. The public school systems aren't known for being great, and can fuck up a lot of kids.

[Rukh Whitefang]

Some of you need to read up on Occam's Razor and realize how fucking dumb you sound.

Kids don't shoot up schools because they're "gun-free zones" they shoot up school because they spent literally all their time there and see it and the people there as a major source of their misery.

The fact that so many of you rationalize all this shit through the filter of your political beliefs is why "nothing will ever get done" about it.

Stay pleb, inferior minds.

lmao at this nerd literally planning a school shooting like it's a raid boss in WoW.
Consider that so many school shootings are objectively failures because they're little more than premeditated acts of rage fueled by revenge fantasies of young adults.

I am pointing out how insecure schools are, you can laugh but there is nothing funny about it. Are schools practice fire drills and tornado drills. Well apparently we need to have them start practicing for a shooter scenario too. You should also know not every school shooting is done by a student from there. The Amish schoolhouse shooting rings to mind from a couple years ago. And this latest shooting the individual was targeting religious people. It looks like your just trying to pass the blame onto the schools for shootings happening in the first place.

[nurseeyeroll]

Occam's Razor is inductive reasoning and pragmatism.  Taking guns out of the equation will not change the underlying cause of lack of resiliency and individual accountability. Parents' raise their children to challenge "everything".  Thus when the individual are failing or end up the social pariah the university or the school are to blame for not protecting "their child" (with no coping skills or social boundaries).  Hate and murder have happened way before it became the fodder sensationalized by the media press buzzards.  As long as people keep feeding into this corporate Kool-aid mentality this is what you are going to be fed.  When the  guns are all smelted down it will be bombings and mass poisonings.  Go  back and look at your history of a School bombing in Northern Ireland  1987 with the fights of the extremist ( also taught from a young age that there only way to see things) and the  multiple other bombings in England and Ireland..... Oh that is right we don't get to see much publicity on those killings and the numbers involved.  

[Toboe]

Occam's Razor is inductive reasoning and pragmatism.  Taking guns out of the equation will not change the underlying cause of lack of resiliency and individual accountability. Parents' raise their children to challenge "everything".  Thus when the individual are failing or end up the social pariah the university or the school are to blame for not protecting "their child" (with no coping skills or social boundaries).  Hate and murder have happened way before it became the fodder sensationalized by the media press buzzards.  As long as people keep feeding into this corporate Kool-aid mentality this is what you are going to be fed.  When the  guns are all smelted down it will be bombings and mass poisonings.  Go  back and look at your history of a School bombing in Northern Ireland  1987 with the fights of the extremist ( also taught from a young age that there only way to see things) and the  multiple other bombings in England and Ireland..... Oh that is right we don't get to see much publicity on those killings and the numbers involved.  

Ever considered that the famous gun-culture is part of the social problems("lack of responsibility and individual accountability")?

And i gather you raised your kids to view guns as tools, not "freedom" , to be treated with responsibility? Congrats on getting it right then.

[nurseeyeroll]

I work at a community college and lots of students have grievances. Many students' lack the resilience to withstand the stressors  required of many professors.  Instead of learning from their mistakes and re-booting their way of dealing with the angst or anxiety of academic dysfunction, social rejection, etc their answer is to destroy everyone around them.. I have raised three children on how to utilize guns safely. Where we live guns are necessary protection against rattlesnakes, rabid skunks, and other vermin attacking our livestock and farm animals.  We utilize rifles to humanely euthanize venison for our meat as well.. I am too blind and do not have the upper body strength to safely hunt with a compound bow.  Bow hunting is not a humane way to bring down an animal.. Most of the people that want to destroy another human being will find the means.  When guns disappear they will utilize weapons of mass destruction or improvised devices to do so.. Murder and hate is biblical. People have been destroying each other way before guns.  Open your eyes folks and open your minds.  For those who do not know I am Red's momma.  We had many debates and disagreements and banter.  Guess what not one episode reverted to a gunfight.  Geez

Guns though many consider their "right" or "freedom" as a tool to feed my family, protect my livestock and property.

Edited October 4, 2015 by nurseeyeroll

[Gryphoneer]

I don't know whether or not to be amused or disgusted that the Obama administration is ramping this up as a political wedge issue; but accusing everyone else of playing politics.  They're OK with the Iranian Nuclear deal (that lets a rogue terrorist nation keep the centrifuges needed to make nuclear weapons) but are upset that Americans own guns?  It beggars belief.

Why, that's a load of bullshit if I ever heard one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the job of government officials to address national problems? And if you don't think America's bloody gun addiction is a state-wide problem, you didn't read the heaps of data in this thread that prove so.

Yeah, damn those rogue terrorist country! That didn't engage in terrorist activity for decades now. And isn't particularly rogue, given all the trade relations it build up over the years. It's hilarious you bring them up if there's a creepy injustice state who violated international law repeatedly to build nukes and continues to commit genocide against a certain ethnic group: Israel. They're a far greater danger for peace, life and limb than the Iran, as the Iranians know that would present an A-grade pretense for invasion, so they never thought about building nukes. Just ask any intelligence service in the world.

But yeah, what the blue hell does that have to do with America's insane gun laws?

[nurseeyeroll]

When the whole country was outraged by the big game hunters  posing for pictures with their "kill'. I do not recall the "moral majority" bantering for the need for more gun control.  There were attacks on the hunters for Trophy hunting big game....

[Rukh Whitefang]

Ironically Oregon already has practical gun restrictions in place. Background checks for every purchase of any firearm, filling out the paperwork under penalty of the law stating you are competent to own a firearm. Oregon already has what President Obama called "common sense laws". Those are already in place. So clearly that's not gonna stop mass shootings. I want the President to respond to why Chicago is such a disaster. Thats a city with heavy gun restrictions. Clearly something is wrong.

[#00Buck]

If the guy wanted attention all he had to do was bring a home made clock to school. 

[dischimera]

This is what happens when your country allows any random medium-class kid to have a real legal gun at home.

[Rukh Whitefang]

This is what happens when your country allows any random medium-class kid to have a real legal gun at home.

Wrong, very wrong. The majority of gun owners (like myself) don't go out and shoot people (And specifically we don't go out shooting people of certain religions as is the case in the Oregon shootings). Like Ive posted several times in this thread crimes committed with legally purchased guns is less than 2% of actual violent gun crimes.

[dischimera]

Wrong, very wrong. The majority of gun owners (like myself) don't go out and shoot people (And specifically we don't go out shooting people of certain religions as is the case in the Oregon shootings). Like Ive posted several times in this thread crimes committed with legally purchased guns is less than 2% of actual violent gun crimes.

That less than 2% are enough to commit mass murder.

[Rukh Whitefang]

That less than 2% are enough to commit mass murder.

Okay, So I am guessing you didn't read any of the conversations in the thread and just came in with the "lets ban all guns" type mentality. In 2013 there were 300,000 violent gun crimes in the U.S, of those 5,000 of them were with legally purchased firearms. Of the murders that happened in the U.S 0.6 of them are caused by mass shootings. So tell me where the focus should be. Your wasting time by targeting the smallest area. And actually harming those who want a gun for protection/home defense.

 

But keep ignoring the fact that the cities in the U.S that have the highest gun related crimes also have the toughest gun laws. Heck, there are NO gun shops in the city of Chicago. They are banned (along with many types of firearms). Yet 95% of the murders in Chicago are by guns.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Rukh Whitefang
spelling

[Luka]

As is the other 98%

How many more would die in mass shootings if someone with a legal weapon didn't stop the shooter?

Uh, are you talking about cops? Because that's kinda their job.

If not, how often do civilians stop mass murderers with their own concealed weapons? You make it sound like it's common.

[Toboe]

Where DO the illegal guns come from?

[Rukh Whitefang]

Uh, are you talking about cops? Because that's kinda their job.
If not, how often do civilians stop mass murderers with their own concealed weapons? You make it sound like it's common.

I hope your not basing that opinion by media coverage. Of course the media won't cover a story where an armed citizen stopped a crazy individual, that doesn't get good ratings.

Where DO the illegal guns come from?

A lot are trafficked in, some are stolen.

[Luka]

It's far more common than legal guns, owned by civilians, being used for mass shootings.

I hope your not basing that opinion by media coverage. Of course the media won't cover a story where an armed citizen stopped a crazy individual, that doesn't get good ratings.

 

Hm, is that so. I suppose I should trust your word.

[cobalt-blue]

A little bit on armed citizens stopping possible mass shootings.       https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/

[Rukh Whitefang]

 

Hm, is that so. I suppose I should trust your word.

A quick google search and lets see.....

In March a person opened fire in a Philadelphia barbershop. An armed citizen had been walking by the barbershop when he heard gunshots. He ran inside and shot the gunman.

In April of this year an Uber taxi driver with a CPL stopped a mass shooting in progress a couple miles west of Wrigley Field.

In May another citizen with a CPL stopped an armed carjacking in progress.

Now into mass shooting stopped.

Oct. 1, 1997
Luke Woodham fatally stabbed and bludgeoned his mother and went on to kill two students and injure seven others at his high school. Woodham was stopped by Assistant Principal Joel Myrick, a U.S. Army Reserve commander, who detained Woodham by using a .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol he kept in his truck, until authorities could show up.

April 24, 1998
Andrew Wurst showed up to his middle school dance with his .25-caliber pistol. He fired it, killing a teacher, wounding a second one, and injuring two students. The 14-year-old’s shoot-out lasted about 20 minutes. It was ended when James Strand, the owner of the banquet hall the dance was happening in, confronted Wurst with his personal shotgun. He ordered Wurst to drop his weapon and held the teenager in place for 11 minutes before finally getting him to drop the weapon and lie on the ground, and then searched him for other weapons.

Dec. 9, 2007
A former police officer from Minnesota named Jeane Assam was at church when a 24-year-old gunman named Matthew Murray began firing at parishioners in the parking lot. Murray claimed two victims before Assam opened fire on him with her personally owned concealed weapon. After receiving multiple hits from Assam, Murray then shot himself.

 

July 19, 2009
The details are kinda dark but according to reports, a man entered a Golden Market in Virginia in 2009 and began firing a gun. He shot and wounded the clerk and then started shooting at patrons inside. He ran out of ammo and was attempting to reload when he was shot, wounded, and then subdued by citizen who had a gun permit who happened to be in the store.

So please don't try the whole "armed citizens don't stop crime" bullcrap okay? The media just doesn't like reporting that because it doesn't make for good tv.

[AshleyAshes]

Oct. 1, 1997
Luke Woodham fatally stabbed and bludgeoned his mother and went on to kill two students and injure seven others at his high school. Woodham was stopped by Assistant Principal Joel Myrick, a U.S. Army Reserve commander, who detained Woodham by using a .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol he kept in his truck, until authorities could show up.

April 24, 1998
Andrew Wurst showed up to his middle school dance with his .25-caliber pistol. He fired it, killing a teacher, wounding a second one, and injuring two students. The 14-year-old’s shoot-out lasted about 20 minutes. It was ended when James Strand, the owner of the banquet hall the dance was happening in, confronted Wurst with his personal shotgun. He ordered Wurst to drop his weapon and held the teenager in place for 11 minutes before finally getting him to drop the weapon and lie on the ground, and then searched him for other weapons.

Dec. 9, 2007
A former police officer from Minnesota named Jeane Assam was at church when a 24-year-old gunman named Matthew Murray began firing at parishioners in the parking lot. Murray claimed two victims before Assam opened fire on him with her personally owned concealed weapon. After receiving multiple hits from Assam, Murray then shot himself.

 

July 19, 2009
The details are kinda dark but according to reports, a man entered a Golden Market in Virginia in 2009 and began firing a gun. He shot and wounded the clerk and then started shooting at patrons inside. He ran out of ammo and was attempting to reload when he was shot, wounded, and then subdued by citizen who had a gun permit who happened to be in the store.

So please don't try the whole "armed citizens don't stop crime" bullcrap okay? The media just doesn't like reporting that because it doesn't make for good tv.

Only two of your examples postdate large scale adoption of IARD.  One of your post-IARD examples has your shooter ending their own life, after already causing loss of life, ignoring pretty broadly accepted doctrine that direct confrontation, even unarmed verbal confrontation, statistically shows reduction in loss of life.  After looking at it, your Golden Market Virgina shooting was not a mass shooting, it was a robbery according to the media.

[#00Buck]

School is for fish. 

[Rukh Whitefang]

Only two of your examples postdate large scale adoption of IARD.  One of your post-IARD examples has your shooter ending their own life, after already causing loss of life, ignoring pretty broadly accepted doctrine that direct confrontation, even unarmed verbal confrontation, statistically shows reduction in loss of life.  After looking at it, your Golden Market Virgina shooting was not a mass shooting, it was a robbery according to the media.

Gee I didn't realize a robbery was where someone blindly starts shooting at EVERYONE in the store, running out of ammo then reloading to shoot some more. Last time I checked a robbery is to get in and out in a quick like fashion. As far as the church shooting in the parking lot, the armed citizen was coming out of the building responding to the shooting. She ran toward the shooter and directly engaged them. Its also worth noting that her nephew was one of those first shot in the parking lot before she was out there too.

There are plenty of other stories I just copied the first couple I found. But here is yet another that happened July of this year in Cincinnati Ohio, A person with a CPL ran to the scene and stopped a 62 year old man who had just fired at 4 random people on the street.

I also remember the story about a CPL carrier stopping a machete wielding maniac in a mall.

The argument that good people with guns don't stop crime is ridicules And it needs to die.

[AshleyAshes]

Gee I didn't realize a robbery was where someone blindly starts shooting at EVERYONE in the store, running out of ammo then reloading to shoot some more. Last time I checked a robbery is to get in and out in a quick like fashion.

He didn't shoot at everyone.  He shot the clerk.  It was a robbery gone sour, it turned violent.  This is why it's not indexed ANYWHERE as a 'mass shooting'.  A mass shooting has to involve the objective to take lives for no purpose other than to take their lives and it has to happen enmass.

The argument that good people with guns don't stop crime is ridicules And it needs to die

Well...

 24-year-old gunman named Matthew Murray began firing at parishioners in the parking lot. Murray claimed two victims

How are you defining 'stop crime' here?  In fact, NONE of the three mass shootings you involved personal firearms from preventing loss of life from happening.  People were successfully killed in all of your examples.

 

[AshleyAshes]

Like, I'm sorry but I don't buy it.  Really, anyone who is armed can walk into a room that is full of people and take multiple lives with ease.  Nothing can prevent that direct action from happening.  Armed students or faculty who are untrained?  No, I don't mean trained in usage of a firearm.  I mean trained in dealing with active shooters.  These are highly chaotic situations where police have to maintain continuous regular training to keep those skills or they will lose those skill themselves in only a matter of months.  Those individuals don't exist as civilians.  There is no such training and skill maintenance program in existence to create such civilians.  60 students sitting in a lecture hall, half of them taking notes, the other half looking at SnapChat on their phones, one of them is discretely armed, untrained for active shooter situations, and I'm supposed to expect them to adequately respond the moment all hell breaks lose?  Gimmie a break.

Yes, active shooters and IARD is sorta a hobby of mine.  ...It's earned me a few police background checks while asking for interviews.

[Rukh Whitefang]

He didn't shoot at everyone.  He shot the clerk.  It was a robbery gone sour, it turned violent.  This is why it's not indexed ANYWHERE as a 'mass shooting'.  A mass shooting has to involve the objective to take lives for no purpose other than to take their lives and it has to happen enmass.

Well...

How are you defining 'stop crime' here?  In fact, NONE of the three mass shootings you involved personal firearms from preventing loss of life from happening.  People were successfully killed in all of your examples.

 

You just don't get it do you? I carry my gun everywhere I go, that doesn't mean I can anticipate needing it before I actually do. If I am pulling my gun out its because I or someone I see in my vicinity is being directly threatened. As in, an event has already taken place and I am responding to it accordingly.You want the full article about the church shooting I referenced? The armed citizen a the church was responding to the shooting down in the parking lot. Yes 2 people were shot and Jeanne ran out of the building drawing her weapon shooting Murray several times who after he fell to the ground shot and killed himself. I'd call that pretty successful as Jeanne was not in the immediate area when the shooting took place.

It seems like your advocating because people got shot and or killed the shootings were not stopped. These armed citizens responded after the event already started, they had no idea they were going to be located in/near a shooting. Had they not been there how many other people would have been shot?

Cops were nowhere around these immediate events so should we just hunker down and wait? Or should someone who is armed take action? What would have happened at these events had no one been there to stop the individuals from taking more lives?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Rukh Whitefang

[#00Buck]

Like, I'm sorry but I don't buy it.  Really, anyone who is armed can walk into a room that is full of people and take multiple lives with ease.  Nothing can prevent that direct action from happening.  Armed students or faculty who are untrained?  No, I don't mean trained in usage of a firearm.  I mean trained in dealing with active shooters.  These are highly chaotic situations where police have to maintain continuous regular training to keep those skills or they will lose those skill themselves in only a matter of months.  Those individuals don't exist as civilians.  There is no such training and skill maintenance program in existence to create such civilians.  60 students sitting in a lecture hall, half of them taking notes, the other half looking at SnapChat on their phones, one of them is discretely armed, untrained for active shooter situations, and I'm supposed to expect them to adequately respond the moment all hell breaks lose?  Gimmie a break.

Yes, active shooters and IARD is sorta a hobby of mine.  ...It's earned me a few police background checks while asking for interviews.

There is a huge flaw in your argument. 

The shooter is also untrained. 

So an untrained person against an untrained person is at the very least a fair fight.

[AshleyAshes]

Okay, you want the full article? The armed citizen a the church was responding to the shooting down in the parking lot. Yes 2 people were shot and Jeanne ran out of the building drawing her weapon shooting Murray several times who after he fell to the ground shot and killed himself. I'd call that pretty successful as Jeanne was not in the immediate area when the shooting took place.
It seems like your advocating because people got shot and or killed the shootings were not stopped. These armed citizens responded after the event already started, they had no idea they were going to be located in/near a shooting. Had they not been there how many other people would have been shot?

Cops were nowhere around these immediate events so should we just hunker down and wait? Or should someone who is armed take action? What would have happened at these events had no one been there to stop the individuala from taking more lives?

I've read the entire article.  I wonder if you haven't because you're failing to mention that the shooting started in a different community, before he escaped and moved on to the church.  Thank you.

Your argument of cops being nowhere doesn't hold much weight, as you only cited one example that is post adoption of IARD.  And also, yes, hunkering down is actually exceptionally good advice, particularly in a school.  It's even the center point of all police drills for IARD.

You present someone 'taking action' ignoring weather or not they have any experience in these situations.  Active shooter situations presents significant risk for your 'hero' to accidently harm other students rather than the shooter.  Your also talking about increasing the amount of firearms on campuses, frankly, do you have any idea how fucking stupid college students are?  Do you know how many college students die every year to drunken misadventure?  Schools have legitimate issues with students drunkenly falling out of their dorm rooms because they miscalculated their window screens ability to protect them from gravity, yeah, let's give those people guns.  I'm sorry, but the rate of accidental discharge would be terrifying.

There is a huge flaw in your argument. 

The shooter is also untrained.

The shooter isn't concerned with trying to not accidently shoot their own classmates.  The shooter is involved in what is effectively a turkey shoot.  The shooter is also not trying to not get killed in the execution of their plans.  Someone trying to stop the shooter doesn't get that same luxury.

Seriously, look it up, no one EVER plans to kill a bunch of people and then escape to Mexico.  These are suicide missions.  ...Except those two 11 year old kids who pulled the fire alarm at the school, then waited outside with a hunting rifle and started taking shots at their classmates.  Those guys were planning to escape and camp out of in the woods for the rest of their lives.  Let's just chalk that exception to 'being 11 years old' though.