Jump to content

Rant: School Shootings


Sidewalk Surfboard
 Share

Recommended Posts

 

The shooter isn't concerned with trying to not accidently shoot their own classmates.  The shooter is involved in what is effectively a turkey shoot.  The shooter is also not trying to not get killed in the execution of their plans.  Someone trying to stop the shooter doesn't get that same luxury.

Seriously, look it up, no one EVER plans to kill a bunch of people and then escape to Mexico.  These are suicide missions.  ...Except those two 11 year old kids who pulled the fire alarm at the school, then waited outside with a hunting rifle and started taking shots at their classmates.  Those guys were planning to escape and camp out of in the woods for the rest of their lives.  Let's just chalk that exception to 'being 11 years old' though.

Again. The shooter has no training.

The shooter is concentrating very hard at shooting at unarmed people who are sitting in a corner so they won't be looking behind themselves.

The shooter is shooting making loud noises that will cover of the sound of anyone sneaking up on them.

The shooter is an easy target. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ashely if you have a CPL permit you are trained. Ive taken all the classes including the advanced ones about responding to a threat in public. Anyone who is carrying a gun and doesn't have some training or experience using a handgun shouldn't be carrying in the first place. Those I know who like myself conceal carry are all reasonably trained. I and my friends take it very seriously.

I don't think you have an understanding of an armed citizen responding to an event already in progress. Its not like those of us know a shooting is about to take place, we react to an event already happening...

I will give an example of how I act when I am carrying. When I am out in public I watch, I observe. If I am in a restaurant I sit near the door facing toward it with my back facing away from it. Its called situational awareness.

Last year at a car show I was at, not 15 minutes after I left there was a shooting right where I had been(fortunately nobody got shot which is amazing when there was over 10,000 people there). I can tell you what my reaction would have been. My gun would have been drawn I would have been moving my friends to cover behind cars and I would have taken a stance to enrage the shooter after I determined where it was coming from. Its called training...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ashely if you have a CPL permit you are trained. Ive taken all the classes including the advanced ones about responding to a threat in public. Anyone who is carrying a gun and doesn't have some training or experience using a handgun shouldn't be carrying in the first place. Those I know who like myself conceal carry are all reasonably trained. I and my friends take it very seriously.

I don't think you have an understanding of an armed citizen responding to an event already in progress. Its not like those of us know a shooting is about to take place, we react to an event already happening...

I will give an example of how I act when I am carrying. When I am out in public I watch, I observe. If I am in a restaurant I sit near the door facing toward it with my back facing away from it. Its called situational awareness.

Last year at a car show I was at, not 15 minutes after I left there was a shooting right where I had been(fortunately nobody got shot which is amazing when there was over 10,000 people there). I can tell you what my reaction would have been. My gun would have been drawn I would have been moving my friends to cover behind cars and I would have taken a stance to enrage the shooter after I determined where it was coming from. Its called training...

Dude it's impossible to convince a person who has never even seen a gun in real life how easy it is to hit a man sized target that's five yards away. 

It's simple stuff. Anyone can do it. A person in a wheelchair with the use of one arm could do it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ashely if you have a CPL permit you are trained. Ive taken all the classes including the advanced ones about responding to a threat in public.

And of course you keep these skills up to date, right?  Police services retrain for IARD every 1-3 months because rapid response skills must be continuously trained or the skills are lost.  So how frequently are you keeping these skills up to date, or have you let them languish?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And of course you keep these skills up to date, right?  Police services retrain for IARD every 1-3 months because rapid response skills must be continuously trained or the skills are lost.  So how frequently are you keeping these skills up to date, or have you let them languish?

I go to the range every other month and put 150-200 rounds downrange (ammo for a .40 aint cheap neither) thank you very much. Now I am no crackshot like one of my co-workers, But I can and do hit my targets. And when your aiming for center mass the target is pretty big. Even bigger if the target is overweight. Its really not that hard to fire a handgun. You can become decently proficient in an afternoon.

I gather you've never used a gun before have you?

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again. The shooter has no training.

The shooter is concentrating very hard at shooting at unarmed people who are sitting in a corner so they won't be looking behind themselves.

The shooter is shooting making loud noises that will cover of the sound of anyone sneaking up on them.

The shooter is an easy target. 

 

Oh god no.  No, these things go NUTS.  Classrooms have multiple exits, doors are slamming, tables are moving, people are screaming, fire alarms are frequently pulled, it's fucking chaos.  Active shooter scenes, particularly in those in buildings with multiple routes and exits like schools or hospitals are fucking BAT SHIT for the first 10-20mins.  Even worse, since the VAST majority of people have NO idea who is doing the shooting, it is EXCEPTIONALLY easy for the shooter to hide their weapon and masquerade amongst their own targets to relocate themselves.

Sorry, but I've literally interviewed constables from multiple tactical units on this topic.  There's very little that is 'simple' about an active shooter.

I go to the range every other month and put 150-200 rounds downrange (ammo for a .40 aint cheap neither) thank you very much. Now I am no crackshot like one of my co-workers, But I can and do hit my targets. And when your aiming for center mass the target is pretty big.

'The Range' is weapon usage training, not response training.  You specifically avoided saying weather you have maintained the 'advanced training', you've clear let any skillset in that regard languish.

Edited by AshleyAshes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ashely Chris Mintz had enough of a presence to as a last resort use his own body as a barricade in the Oregon shooting to protect the others in the classroom. He took 7 rounds before the shooter made it through the doorway. Had there been enough time, tables and chairs can be used quite defectively to block a doorway as well as use a table flipped on its side for cover and a place to shoot back from. You have no experience with firearms or with firearms training, you really should stop. You just keep making yourself look foolish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh god no.  No, these things go NUTS.  Classrooms have multiple exits, doors are slamming, tables are moving, people are screaming, fire alarms are frequently pulled, it's fucking chaos.  Active shooter scenes, particularly in those in buildings with multiple routes and exits like schools or hospitals are fucking BAT SHIT for the first 10-20mins.  Even worse, since the VAST majority of people have NO idea who is doing the shooting, it is EXCEPTIONALLY easy for the shooter to hide their weapon and masquerade amongst their own targets to relocate themselves.

Sorry, but I've literally interviewed constables from multiple tactical units on this topic.  There's very little that is 'simple' about an active shooter.

'The Range' is weapon usage training, not response training.  You specifically avoided saying weather you have maintained the 'advanced training', you've cleared let any skillset in that regard languish.

I shoot regularly with tactical team members and work with them in my job. Have you ever done any tactical training with guns? If not you have no idea what you're talking about.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ashely Chris Mintz had enough of a presence to as a last resort use his own body as a barricade in the Oregon shooting to protect the others in the classroom. He took 7 rounds before the shooter made it through the doorway. Had there been enough time, tables and chairs can be used quite defectively to block a doorway as well as use a table flipped on its side for cover and a place to shoot back from. You have no experience with firearms or with firearms training, you really should stop. You just keep making yourself look foolish.

So, I'm going to take this as absolute conformation that you make zero effort to maintain response training for active shooters but you are arrogant enough to think that target practice compensate for this.  I can't see why you can't just owe up to it though.  Why change the topic instead of being like '...Yeah... I don't maintain a skillset for that'.

I shoot regularly with tactical team members and work with them in my job. Have you ever done any tactical training with guns? If not you have no idea what you're talking about.

*cough*

861424_10200634129918847_1655682567_o.jp

Actually, I like the pose in this one better.  Thankfully, Simunition paint washes RIGHT out. :o

885562_10200770002675581_1242545419_o.jp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh god no.  No, these things go NUTS.  Classrooms have multiple exits, doors are slamming, tables are moving, people are screaming, fire alarms are frequently pulled, it's fucking chaos.  Active shooter scenes, particularly in those in buildings with multiple routes and exits like schools or hospitals are fucking BAT SHIT for the first 10-20mins.  Even worse, since the VAST majority of people have NO idea who is doing the shooting, it is EXCEPTIONALLY easy for the shooter to hide their weapon and masquerade amongst their own targets to relocate themselves.

Sorry, but I've literally interviewed constables from multiple tactical units on this topic.  There's very little that is 'simple' about an active shooter.

'The Range' is weapon usage training, not response training.  You specifically avoided saying weather you have maintained the 'advanced training', you've cleared let any skillset in that regard languish.

Which is why if you have a concealed weapon in an active shooter scene in a school your first and only take is to secure and barricade the room you are in and protect those in there. It would be utter foolishness to do otherwise as you have no idea where the threat is, how many threats there are or whats going on outside the room you are in. Seriously, your acting like a person would be all stupid and try and go all Rambo. Really please stop. You can go and keep believing that armed citizens don't stop violent crimes from happening.

Aside, have you ever fired a weapon before? Just curious.

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I'm going to take this as absolute conformation that you make zero effort to maintain response training for active shooters but you are arrogant enough to think that target practice compensate for this.  I can't see why you can't just owe up to it though.  Why change the topic instead of being like '...Yeah... I don't maintain a skillset for that'.

*cough*

861424_10200634129918847_1655682567_o.jp

Actually, I like the pose in this one better.  Thankfully, Simunition paint washes RIGHT out. :o

885562_10200770002675581_1242545419_o.jp

So where's your gun?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Hello, my name is Sidwalk Surfboard, and I am unable to read the word 'Paramedic' on a uniform."

"Hello my name is Ashely and all Ive ever done is hold a gun that I never fired and have zero training for and took part as a medic in a mock active shooter event so I  know everything about how to respond to an event with a gun Ive never used before".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Hello my name is Ashely and all Ive ever done is hold a gun that I never fired and have zero training for and took part as a medic in a mock active shooter event so I  know everything about how to respond to an event with a gun Ive never used before".

I got more experience with the scenario than you've gotten while doing target practice at a range. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I got more experience with the scenario than you've gotten while doing target practice at a range. :)

Untrained shooters actually do very well in self defence scenarios. 

Experience is good to have but it is not needed in order to land a shot on target. Having someone there even with minimal skill and training is a huge plus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, that one is really old and the scenario was "cooked' because the shooters knew exactly where the concealed carry holder was sitting and what they looked like at the start. 

It's interesting but yeah.  Also, the subjects of the tests also were at least somewhat geared up for it.  I realized they tried to dodge that by telling the subject they were training in putting on the protective gear, but they at least to some degree already knew they were 'about to be in some kinda shooter thing soon' even if they didn't realize it at that moment.  Though obviously, it's not like you really could make a scenario where your armed subject is just chillin' reading the latest Kylie Jenner news on their phone while giving no fucks about anything else in the room.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just what I have stated, the cpl classes (all of them) and a couple years of range practice. I don't even know of any training courses I could go through in my area honestly that offer police style training for regular citizens.

There are places. It depends on what you want. If you want to shoot at other people then it gets expensive. If you just want to run scenarios and do some live fire stuff that's less expensive. If you have a range with the right facilities you can get a trainer to come out if you have a large enough group of people to take the course. Fun stuff. Good times. No matter how much you train it will never prepare you for the real thing. 

Also most police officers go their entire career without ever firing their duty pistol. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Video looks abit staged honestly. The armed citizen is right in the front row in the worst seating position possible (this looks like a perfect setup for failure). I always try and sit in an area where I can cover the front door while not being completely exposed.  The armed intruder does the same thing every time. He comes in shoots the teacher and turns to his left and shoots. Right into where the armed citizen is sitting. The armed citizen is wearing the wrong clothes too, way to long of a shirt. And whats with the gloves?

And I noticed something that I think a lot here might miss. Yes the armed citizen died, but most everyone else in the room was able to run because the active shooter was to busy with the armed citizen.
 

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's interesting but yeah.  Also, the subjects of the tests also were at least somewhat geared up for it.  I realized they tried to dodge that by telling the subject they were training in putting on the protective gear, but they at least to some degree already knew they were 'about to be in some kinda shooter thing soon' even if they didn't realize it at that moment.  Though obviously, it's not like you really could make a scenario where your armed subject is just chillin' reading the latest Kylie Jenner news on their phone while giving no fucks about anything else in the room.

To be direct - What is the extent of your training and experience in shooting? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope. But good guess.

Yeah, that one is really old and the scenario was "cooked' because the shooters knew exactly where the concealed carry holder was sitting and what they looked like at the start. 

Even if the scenario isnt done well, it has one thing of merit that people donnot take in account For people who use guns to shoot at passive targets and use multiple guns vs. Situations that require sharp reation times and a clear head. Shooting a gun is completely difderent than a situation that can tax you mentally and somewhat exhaust you as well.

Police officers have to train themselves and their reaction time more than an average civilian, and have to have a clear head instead of tunnel vision. Police training coirses for civilians would help, but they are rarely offered.

More or less, a person trying to take down a perp like in the scenarios has a high chance of failing to take down a person than a person in an ambush situation. 

Edited by Ozriel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if the scenario isnt done well, it has one thing of merit that people donnot take in account For people who use guns to shoot at passive targets and use multiples vs. Situations that require sharp reation times and a clear head. Police officers have to train themselves and their reaction time more than an average civilian, and have to have a cear head instead of tunnel vision.

More or less, a person trying to take down a perp like in the scenarios has a high chance of failing to take down a person than a person in an ambush situation. 

The average police officer fires a total of two boxes of ammo a year at qualification. That is all. They stand still at a range and shoot at a paper target that does not shoot back. Two boxes is 100 shots. Most never practice during the year. It shows in terms of the results. 

Tactical officers are totally different. The average IPSC or IDPA or hobby shooter would out qualify the average police officer without breaking a sweat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be direct - What is the extent of your training and experience in shooting? 

A lot of interviews, getting to observe scenarios, getting to participate as non-combatant.  My main interest is the actual 'system' of an active shooting.  I find the topic really interesting, it's this kinda 'bogeyman' under the bed that sometimes is ACTUALLY real.  It goes down in typically complex structures with a lot of individuals involved and how goes down, how the targets react, how the police should respond, is something I find super compelling.  I'm not particularly interested in the firearms themselves because it's just so much more complex than 'shoot the bad guy'.

Also, on your comment about most constables not fireing their weapons.  Got the best comment from a Cst in the Ottawa Police Service.  'Oh, no, I fire my weapon far more than you'd imagine!  ...I've had to shoot so many deer on this job!'

Edited by AshleyAshes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are places. It depends on what you want. If you want to shoot at other people then it gets expensive. If you just want to run scenarios and do some live fire stuff that's less expensive. If you have a range with the right facilities you can get a trainer to come out if you have a large enough group of people to take the course. Fun stuff. Good times. No matter how much you train it will never prepare you for the real thing. 

Also most police officers go their entire career without ever firing their duty pistol. 

Yeah I figured any kind of training like that would be expensive, thats out of the range of possibilities unless its in a huge group (groupon maybe lol). As far as the ranges in my area I only know of 2 outdoor within 30 miles Of me that could have the space to do anything like that, no idea if they have anything though. Oh and most definitely nothing can prepare you for the real thing, I just keep range practicing for now.

 

A lot of interviews, getting to observe scenarios, getting to participate as non-combatant.  My main interest is the actual 'system' of an active shooting.  I find the topic really interesting, it's this kinda 'bogeyman' under the bed that sometimes is ACTUALLY real.  It goes down in typically complex structures with a lot of individuals involved and how goes down, how the targets react, how the police should respond, is something I find super compelling.  I'm not particularly interested in the firearms themselves because it's just so much more complex than 'shoot the bad guy'.

Also, on your comment about most constables not fireing their weapons.  Got the best comment from a Cst in the Ottawa Police Service.  'Oh, no, I fire my weapon far more than you'd imagine!  ...I've had to shoot so many deer on this job!'

 

So no actual gun training at all? Never used a firearm? I find it very hard to listen to someone who has played as an extra in an active shooter training scenario (for other people) try and talk about weapons training that has zero experience with a gun. Sorry

Edit: I see the post below, so you have had firearm experience, why was that such a hard question to answer? I asked it 3-4 times and so did 00Buck.

Edited by Rukh Whitefang
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of interviews, getting to observe scenarios, getting to participate as non-combatant.  My main interest is the actual 'system' of an active shooting.  I find the topic really interesting, it's this kinda 'bogeyman' under the bed that sometimes is ACTUALLY real.  It goes down in typically complex structures with a lot of individuals involved and how goes down, how the targets react, how the police should respond, is something I find super compelling.  I'm not particularly interested in the firearms themselves because it's just so much more complex than 'shoot the bad guy'.

Also, on your comment about most constables not fireing their weapons.  Got the best comment from a Cst in the Ottawa Police Service.  'Oh, no, I fire my weapon far more than you'd imagine!  ...I've had to shoot so many deer on this job!'

Okay to be even more clear. Have you ever actually fired a gun using normal ammunition ever?

Shooting a deer is the exception not the rule. Most officers never fire their service pistol in the line of duty. That is a fact. 

I have also never met an officer who wanted to have to shoot at another human being. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I figured any kind of training like that would be expensive, thats out of the range of possibilities unless its in a huge group (groupon maybe lol). As far as the ranges in my area I only know of 2 outdoor within 30 miles Of me that could have the space to do anything like that, no idea if they have anything though. Oh and most definitely nothing can prepare you for the real thing, I just keep range practicing for now.

IDPA is decent. It gives you a taste of shooting scenarios and it is a fun sport. My friends do it and some of the competitors are police officers. Average folks routinely beat the police officers. However, the officers shoot differently due to their training. The regular guys treat it as a sport so they go for the fastest time possible. It's really hard to say who would do better in an actual shootout. The best competitors are pretty amazing though. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IDPA is decent. It gives you a taste of shooting scenarios and it is a fun sport. My friends do it and some of the competitors are police officers. Average folks routinely beat the police officers. However, the officers shoot differently due to their training. The regular guys treat it as a sport so they go for the fastest time possible. It's really hard to say who would do better in an actual shootout. The best competitors are pretty amazing though. 

Ah okay, closest one I found is, 30 miles north of here. Not too far. I will have to look into it. Its a Defensive Pistol class from the looks of it. Could be fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, but not with any police involved. (Wah, wah, insurance, wah wah, laws).  Just with friends, outdoors, well, well out of city limits, nothing I'd call meaningful experience.

So you don't run and gun. 

I get that you like to study it. That's fine. But I could read books and study about guitars for ten years. At the end of ten years if someone handed me a guitar I still would have no clue how to play a song on it. It would also reek of B.S. if after doing all that reading I walked up to someone who actually plays guitar daily that they don't know what they're doing. 

Most CCW courses in the states have an exit exam where you actually do live shoot / no shoot scenarios as well as a practical shooting test. That combined with weekly range trips and a bit of scenario based shooting puts their level of skill way above yours. It also puts their skill level far above an untrained person who is an active shooter. The average police officer is not well prepared for an active shooter situation. Only the tactical team is. 

I used to run and gun a lot but not very often anymore due to work. You should try it before you comment on how difficult it is. It isn't rocket science. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you don't run and gun. 

I get that you like to study it. That's fine. But I could read books and study about guitars for ten years. At the end of ten years if someone handed me a guitar I still would have no clue how to play a song on it. It would also reek of B.S. if after doing all that reading I walked up to someone who actually plays guitar daily that they don't know what they're doing. 

Most CCW courses in the states have an exit exam where you actually do live shoot / no shoot scenarios as well as a practical shooting test. That combined with weekly range trips and a bit of scenario based shooting puts their level of skill way above yours. It also puts their skill level far above an untrained person who is an active shooter. The average police officer is not well prepared for an active shooter situation. Only the tactical team is. 

I used to run and gun a lot but not very often anymore due to work. You should try it before you comment on how difficult it is. It isn't rocket science. 

I'm content to defer to the opinions of the constables I got to hang with.  I don't have any personal interest in firearm ownership, the greatest threat to my life is a homeless person puking on me on the streetcar afterall. :P

...Also I fiddle with things.  Like, utensils, tools, remotes, anything...  If I was ever daft enough to remove the firearm from it's lockbox, I'd put a hole in my apartment wall within a day. D:  I have a pair of scissors in my lap right now, I only put it down so I could type. @_@

Edited by AshleyAshes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm content to defer to the opinions of the constables I got to hang with.  I don't have any personal interest in firearm ownership, the greatest threat to my life is a homeless person puking on me on the streetcar afterall. :P

People love to play up how difficult their job is an how it requires special training etc. That's part of the fun of the job. 

Learning how to do the whole job of policing is difficult and takes a lot of time and effort.

Anyone can learn to do specific little pieces of it and do it well. 

Shooting is the smallest aspect of police work. If someone wants to learn scenario shooting really well as a pastime it isn't that hard. 

That's just a very small part of a much bigger skill set. But a small piece is very digestible and learnable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

So please don't try the whole "armed citizens don't stop crime" bullcrap okay? The media just doesn't like reporting that because it doesn't make for good tv.

Is this really true though? People like hero stories where the average man saves the day. But more than that, it's dem dirty liberals that want to take away the guns, so you'd think Fox News would be playing stories like these nonstop when they happen. It's direct support for more guns and conceal carry laws. Plus, the NRA probably masturbates to them.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I'm sure he shot up Parliament because it was a gun-free zone and not because he was unhinged and hated the government.

A little of both.  The Parliament shooter knew that that ceremonial guards would be unarmed (CDN law forbids the combined forces from carrying loaded arms on Canadian soil.) and that's why he started there.  The Sargent of Arms that finally took him down, had to return to his Parliamentary office, remove his sidearm from a locked safe, remove the trigger lock and insert a magazine from a second safe before engaging the shooter.   

 

It is the job of government officials to address national problems.  Its only suspicious when they are addressed in the middle of an election cycle and ignored the other 3 years.

Protip: The plural of "anecdotal stories" is not "heaps of data."

None of this has anything to do with America's rational gun laws.  It has everything to do with elect-ability and the Democrats.

None of this has anything to do with America's rational gun laws.  It has everything to do with elect-ability and the Democrats.

 

Hm, is that so. I suppose I should trust your word.

According to "Audited Shooting Rampage Statistics, David Barker 2012/08/06" the average number of victims when the killer is stopped by the police is 14.3.  The average number of victims when the killer is stopped by a civilian is 2.3.

Edited by Irreverent
multi quote on ipb is baddly broken.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[...]

According to "Audited Shooting Rampage Statistics, David Barker 2012/08/06" the average number of victims when the killer is stopped by the police is 14.3.  The average number of victims when the killer is stopped by a civilian is 2.3.

and WHEN i win the lottery i make a killing sure, most times i won't, and the lottery makes sure that the odds are that on average they make the killing, not me, but WHEN i win...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and WHEN i win the lottery i make a killing sure, most times i won't, and the lottery makes sure that the odds are that on average they make the killing, not me, but WHEN i win...

Without understanding the methodology of the study (and its possible bias) its difficult to comment.  Probably safe to assume that a study on mass killings with civilian, police and joint response doesn't include statistics for no killing (the shooter was deterred or apprehended) or just the shooter killed; one death not fitting the definition of a mass killing.

Canada, being a de  facto gun free country (ATC is almost non-existant) still has mass killings with some alarming regularity.  I'm not sure how that plays out on a per capita basis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...