Transgender People

[Vallium]

I understand where the wanr to call those who appear/attempt to appear male "male" and vice versa although Ido not agree, because if you have someone withe long hair, soft features, feminine articles of clothing, makeup, and anatomical characteristics that looks exactly female in every way and still wants to be called male it sounds more like the only expression of male is in the pronoun itself, why someone would acquire a pronoun and not look or not somewhat attempt to look the part is beyond me. As much as I really hate the norms of gender laws, I can see that point being made.

most transgenders, while not attempting to change themselves to copy an stereotype entirely, will still take on traits of the desired gender rather than just say what they are and still look their birth gender.

I think the desire to change most/somewhat is what differentiates true trans people from tumblr types who want to be special and take on titles to make them feel cool and unique and different.

I personally will just use pronouns regardless because I do not know this person and would give them the benefit of the doubt, and plus I dont care much if theyre he/she/they. Odds are they might not be given the opportunity to express their gender physically so pronouns make them feel comfortable and happy)

Edited October 4, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1

[Kalmor]

um.  pronouns are used to reflect a person's gender.  when you call someone "he" or "she" based on how they look, you are guessing their gender based on your perceptions.  this is fine, and no one should get angry at someone for not knowing without being told, but if that person corrects you, then it means you guessed wrong and it's time to change which pronouns you use.  it is very rude to refuse to change, or to say you'd rather not use a pronoun at all than respect their gender identity.  you don't get to decide what someone else's gender is, and their biological sex is none of your business.  whether or not their outward appearance conforms to your idea of male or female is irrelevant. 

This. Is it really that hard to change pronouns to make the other person feel comfortable, @GreenReaper? 

[GarthTheWereWolf]

This. Is it really that hard to change pronouns to make the other person feel comfortable, @GreenReaper? 

It is when they ask to be called some stupid made up tumblr pronoun like Ne, Ve, or Xe. Shit sets my teeth on edge.

Edited October 4, 2015 by GarthTheWereWolf
how do I grammar¿

[Troj]

My attitude is, we humor stranger or more outlandish things about people--for example, their religious or spiritual beliefs--so why not their desire to be called "he," "she," or "they?"

In general, I reckon life's too short to get into fights with people about their personal identities or preferences, especially if these things don't hurt or grossly inconvenience others.

That said, I also hate how polarized people have become around this issue, such that good people like Green Reaper end up being demonized and pilloried for failing to tow the party line. I'm fairly passionate about the issue myself, but even I realize that not everyone who disagrees with the standard  modern approach to gender and pronouns is a "hater."

Edited October 4, 2015 by Troj

[Vallium]

hmmm...lets play a game or experiment here, I need everyone to be honest, shall we?

What do we see here? In clothes, in posture/stance, in physical appearance?If this person asked to be called something else, would you do it?

and here...what is this person at a glance? If asked to call this person otherwise, would you do it?

Edited October 4, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1

[Guest]

What are you trying to accomplish here, bro? What's the fuckin' problem helping people feel comfortable with themselves?

Have you stopped to think people aren't 100% out and trying to "Pass" literally can't because they'd be murdered?

[Wolflich]

hmmm...lets play a game or experiment here, I need everyone to be honest, shall we?

What do we see here? In clothes, in posture/stance, in physical appearance?If this person asked to be called something else, would you do it?

and here...what is this person at a glance? If asked to call this person otherwise, would you do it?

I'm fine with someone wanting me to call them he/she (or they) even if they don't look it. I mean fuck, some people who were born as that thing are still confusing, so whatever, not really a new concept.

I do think I'd draw the line at new words though. Existing terms are one thing, but most people don't mean so much to me that I'm going to memorize their unique set of pronouns.

[Dijon]

    If this person asked to be called something else, would you do it? 

 If asked to call this person otherwise, would you do it?

Yes because I'm not a cunt.

[Troj]

Yeah, I'm certainly willing to try to humor someone's unique pronouns, but personally, I'm not a fan of them, and I think the xie xoo xim stuff kind of reeks of snowflake-itis. "They" seems like a perfectly useful and appropriate pronoun to me.

[Vallium]

What are you trying to accomplish here, bro? What's the fuckin' problem helping people feel comfortable with themselves?

Have you stopped to think people aren't 100% out and trying to "Pass" literally can't because they'd be murdered?

This, this right here is essentially what I think the main reason people dont 'pass'. All the more reason to call them their gender because its all they have to show for their internal/true feelings that they cant always express, and pronouns itself lessen dysphoria

Edited October 4, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1

[Gamedog]

if someone looks like the guy in the first pic and asks to be called "she", why NOT call her she?

just becausesomeone doesnt pass as their pronoun doesnt nullify their right to be referred to as it?

[Kaizy]

I use neutral pronouns if I don't know for absolute certain that someone identifies as this or that, it's really not that hard. And there's great benefits, such as:

-Coming off as considerate to those who understand why I'm doing that

-Not being an inconsiderate assclown and judging purely on aesthetic appearances and whether or not said person "passes" some preset gender norm

[Kinare]

If someone chooses to look like a buff typical jock guy, does not ask me to call her a "she", then gets mad at me for assuming, I'm going to get mad right back because I can't possibly know and they have no reason to be mad at me for making an honest mistake. If you choose to look stereotypically like one then either be prepared to tell people ASAP what you wish to be called or learn to deal with being called what you look like.

 

The whole trans thing confuses me a lot. If someone does not tell me straight up what they want to be called, but is known to be trans, I get really nervous around them and tend to avoid pronouns altogether if I can manage. I wish pronouns didn't even exist. Damn you, language.

 

I've thought at times about switching around myself, but I think it would be too complicated for me to be comfortable to go through with, especailly knowing how my family would react and I don't have any IRL friends to offer me some support. When people assume I'm one or the other online I don't correct them unless I know them or they're going to hear my voice eventually. Forums are lovely that way, as long as I never refer to myself as one or the other no one can possibly know and judge me for it. ^^

Edited October 4, 2015 by Kinare

[Kaizy]

If someone chooses to look like a buff typical jock guy, does not ask me to call her a "she", then gets mad at me for assuming, I'm going to get mad right back because I can't possibly know and they have no reason to be mad at me for making an honest mistake. If you choose to look stereotypically like one then either be prepared to tell people ASAP what you wish to be called or learn to deal with being called what you look like.

 

The whole trans thing confuses me a lot. If someone does not tell me straight up what they want to be called, but is known to be trans, I get really nervous around them and tends to avoid pronouns altogether if I can manage. I wish pronouns didn't even exist. Damn you, language.

The problem with this is it perpetuates this idea that you have to look and act "specific ways" to be the specific gender you identify as, which is just perpetuating dated gender norms. Again, this is why I simply use they/their/them when referring to anyone I don't explicitly know is a specific gender. It's not offensive, it takes absolutely no effort to do, and you're being considerate by doing so and people will appreciate that. As nice as it would be to just have people walk up and tell us what gender pronouns they prefer, this isn't a reality. A lot of people who struggle with gender issues aren't always open about it or comfortable bringing it up to everyone, and that doesn't automatically mean you're in the right to just assume their gender as you see fit, you can literally just use a neutral pronoun and no one will bat an eye. I do it all the time.

[Kinare]

you can literally just use a neutral pronoun and no one will bat an eye. I do it all the time.

I understand the issue, but I've actually seen instances where people get miffed because someone else used a general pronoun. Rare instances, but still. Online of course it's easier to get away with that because you can't see and should not assume. However, in the cases of the two example pics given above, if someone is going to a lot of effort to look very manly and buff or very girly and pretty, then get called a "they", they feel like you might be questioning if they are indeed what they are.

 

It's all very touchy and uncomfortable and I don't like it. I just call everyone "yo" as much as I can and that has so far had no negative effects, other than people thinking it's silly that I might say "yo" cuz apparently that's too gangsta for me to pull off properly. Wutevs yo.

[Wolflich]

The only thing that bothers me about 'they' is when I just naturally start out with something that would be followed with a singular pronoun, so my mind is like 'Isn't ___ going away for the weekend?' and I'll say 'Isn't' and then my brain is like fuck we're screwed now you can't put 'they' here and we've already established who we're talking about.

[Kaizy]

I understand the issue, but I've actually seen instances where people get miffed because someone else used a general pronoun. Rare instances, but still. Online of course it's easier to get away with that because you can't see and should not assume. However, in the cases of the two example pics given above, if someone is going to a lot of effort to look very manly and buff or very girly and pretty, then get called a "they", they feel like you might be questioning if they are indeed what they are.

 

It's all very touchy and uncomfortable and I don't like it. I just call everyone "yo" as much as I can and that has so far had no negative effects, other than people thinking it's silly that I might say "yo" cuz apparently that's too gangsta for me to pull off properly. Wutevs yo.

I have never heard of "they" being taken offensively.

 

The only thing that bothers me about 'they' is when I just naturally start out with something that would be followed with a singular pronoun, so my mind is like 'Isn't ___ going away for the weekend?' and I'll say 'Isn't' and then my brain is like fuck we're screwed now you can't put 'they' here and we've already established who we're talking about.

It definitely takes time to adjust to it, but it becomes natural after a while. I don't even realize I'm doing it anymore.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Kaizy

[Red Lion]

I have never heard of "they" being taken offensively.

 

It definitely takes time to adjust to it, but it becomes natural after a while. I don't even realize I'm doing it anymore.

I've seen a few people here and there who do not want to be addressed neutrally, most of these being trans-people but a few cis-people too. For some people it feels like assigning them "non-gender" which is no better to them than being misgendered. For some people gender is a big personal part of their identity and they do strongly identify as one or the other and consider "they" to be incorrect as much as a mislabeled "he" or "she". Really there is no way to please everyone and be 100% considerate.

[Kaizy]

I've seen a few people here and there who do not want to be addressed neutrally, most of these being trans-people but a few cis-people too. For some people it feels like assigning them "non-gender" which is no better to them than being misgendered. For some people gender is a big personal part of their identity and they do strongly identify as one or the other and consider "they" to be incorrect as much as a mislabeled "he" or "she". Really there is no way to please everyone and be 100% considerate.

You're talking about a situation where the people in question have expressed that they do not wish to be referred to with neutral pronouns and because of this, have corrected them and said to use ____ pronoun. If someone says "yeah don't use neutral pronouns, use ____", then you stop using neutral ones and call them by that. But if you don't know their preference and they're not vocal about it, you use neutral ones. It's not about pleasing people 100% all the time, it's literally just consideracy.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Kaizy

[Wolflich]

it's literally just consideracy.

The politest form of alliance.

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

If some special snowflake wants me to call them "xim" or "fae" or shit like that, I will outright refuse and call them they instead. If they get mad at me for using they, then they need to fuck right off.

[Red Lion]

You're talking about a situation where the people in question have expressed that they do not wish to be referred to with neutral pronouns and because of this, have corrected them and said to use ____ pronoun. If someone says "yeah don't use neutral pronouns, use ____", then you stop using neutral ones and call them by that. But if you don't know they're preference and they're not vocal about it, you use neutral ones. It's not about pleasing people 100% all the time, it's literally just consideracy.

But what I'm saying is some people still wouldn't find "they" to be considerate. Some people consider non-gender/gender neutral to be a thing in itself, kind of in the way atheism is not a religion but is its own presentation of belief (or lack thereof), and they do not find assigning gender neutrality to be any better than assigning one gender over the other. I don't think it's inconsiderate, personally, but I have met people who view it as an assumption of non-gender, non-gender being something they think of as its own identity.

I find that transgender people in particular are more likely to reject "they" because they do often try to represent as a certain gender and calling them "they" feels like an outright rejection of their preference or again, that you are assigning them gender neutrality.  It does all depend on how you view gender and whether you personally think that gender neutrality is its own identity.

[Kaizy]

But what I'm saying is some people still wouldn't find "they" to be considerate. Some people consider non-gender/gender neutral to be a thing in itself, kind of in the way atheism is not a religion but is its own presentation of belief (or lack thereof), and they do not find assigning gender neutrality to be any better than assigning one gender over the other. I don't think it's inconsiderate, personally, but I have met people who view it as an assumption of non-gender, non-gender being something they think of as its own identity.

I find that transgender people in particular are more likely to reject "they" because they do often try to represent as a certain gender and calling them "they" feels like an outright rejection of their preference or again, that you are assigning them gender neutrality.  It does all depend on how you view gender and whether you personally think that gender neutrality is its own identity.

This is something that I'd need to get confirmation on. I meet a lot of people in the community pretty regularly, and approach them in the manner I've mentioned and I have yet to meet one of these people you've mentioned that takes a neutral pronoun as offensive. The people I encounter usually tell me upfront when I use the neutral pronoun "hey, I go by ____" or if I think they might not want a neutral pronoun, I'll just ask if neutral pronouns are alright, and they'll give me a yay or nay.

[Kinare]

^ Red Lion basically saying what I wanted to, less work for me ftw!

Preeetty much I just wish humans would stop being touchy when fellow humans aren't intending to upset them. If someone calls someone the wrong thing on purpose, that's a reason to be upset and offended, not if someone makes an honest mistake because they aren't consciously considering what someone else might identify with for that brief period of time. No one is perfect and no one should expect perfection. Getting mad at someone who is not trying to hurt you is uncool, yo.

[Ayattar]

[things]

Then they should take a heavy hammer and drop it on their heads, because they went too far in ridiculing the language.

"They" is a polite way of adressing other people, being non-gendered version of "sir" and "madame". It's like that not only in english but also in slavic and romance languages. So it's always okay to use it.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Ayattar

[Red Lion]

Then they should take a heavy hammer and drop it on their heads, because they went too far in ridiculing the language.

"They" is a polite way of adressing other people, being non-gendered version of "sir" and "madame". It's like that not only in english but also in slavic and romance languages. So it's okay to use it in all circumstances.

Which I largely agree with, I was just bringing it up as an example that  what is considerate is a subjective thing. I don't think it is inconsiderate but I don't think how you address someone is a big deal unless you go out of your way to go against someone's wishes.

[Wolflich]

If someone is offended by 'they' then I think they (oops) are probably just really insecure more than anything. Everyone gets referred to as 'they' now and then and it's completely normal and not making any sort of statement about that person, so for someone to say that it's assigning them a neutral gender just sounds like a way to rationalize their fear that they're not being perceived how they wanted.

[Red Lion]

If someone is offended by 'they' then I think they (oops) are probably just really insecure more than anything. Everyone gets referred to as 'they' now and then and it's completely normal and not making any sort of statement about that person, so for someone to say that it's assigning them a neutral gender just sounds like a way to rationalize their fear that they're not being perceived how they wanted.

Which is why I think it's mostly transpeople I've found who feel that way. A lot of them work really hard to try to pass and being called "they" reminds them that they don't. Even if it isn't meant that way it still brings up insecurities.

[Kaizy]

Which is why I think it's mostly transpeople I've found who feel that way. A lot of them work really hard to try to pass and being called "they" reminds them that they don't. Even if it isn't meant that way it still brings up insecurities.

Making a gender assumption and calling them the wrong gender is even worse. Being referred to under a neutral term is nowhere near being as offensive and upsetting as being referred to by the opposite gender to what you're actually identifying as.

[Ayattar]

Presence of "they" in english and european languages being used as a pronoun is the result of direct medevial latin influence in which pronoun "they" was reserved to the rulers and people of the highest rank, like church hierarchs. Later it got extended over all people of noble background, and finally adapted as a polite way of adressing. It never had anything in common with gender or it's lack. So if someone makes a problem out of it right now, it's their problem, not ours.

[Red Lion]

Making a gender assumption and calling them the wrong gender is even worse. Being referred to under a neutral term is nowhere near being as offensive and upsetting as being referred to by the opposite gender to what you're actually identifying as.

Which I would also agree with, but I can still sort of see how they'd read it as "I'm using they because I can't tell what gender they are" and that would be upsetting in its own right. Again, I don't think its inconsiderate, but for some people nothing short of their real gender is going to make them feel good about themselves.

[Butters]

You know, even if you didn't believe in transgender-ness and such, it's still just good manners to address someone by their preferred gender. 

Im so glad most of you don't need to be told that. Breaking that stereotype of furries being idiots with no social skills. 

[Kalmor]

It is when they ask to be called some stupid made up tumblr pronoun like Ne, Ve, or Xe. Shit sets my teeth on edge.

I didn't have those in mind. 

[Vallium]

I tend to get in the habit of usig "they" when I suddenly assume someone's gender, but then realize Im not actually sure. I also use gender-neautrality to express talking about someone in a non-safe environment or to someone who Im not sure will understand transgender things. That, and if Im talking around someone who Im not sure the person has come out to, and after using one gender so long its hard to go back to their "normal" gender because it just feels off or disrespectful to the nonpresent person. I may have to end up using old pronouns though for the sake of convenience.

I know for myself Im not finicky on pronouns (as much as Id like to be) because its not easy to go around in the real world saying "I prefer these pronouns"or wear a badge saying "muh pronouns". People are often already used to something, that, and most people arent willing to use or view someone as something else, especially if they do not look the part

 

You know, even if you didn't believe in transgender-ness and such, it's still just good manners to address someone by their preferred gender. 

Im so glad most of you don't need to be told that. Breaking that stereotype of furries being idiots with no social skills. 

Furries tend to be good about comprehending LGBT stuff they just cant determine when the proper time to wear their murrsuit is :V

 

(Nobody got that this was me trying to make a joke, seeing as serious responses abound)

 

Edited October 4, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1
:V

[Butters]

Furries tend to be good about comprehending LGBT stuff they just cant determine when the proper time to wear their murrsuit is

i have found that many furries are LGBT, but understanding their own issues? Not so much...but there are multiple reasons for that. 

[Ayattar]

i have found that many furries are LGBT, but understanding their own issues? Not so much...but there are multiple reasons for that. 

It's hard to understand things that you can't replicate. Humans are their own worlds and everyone sees the world differently. Hence you can't expect anyone to understand more than the technical or the theoretical side of a problem. I know that gender dysphoria exist, I know everything connectied to it which could be find in widely accesible knowledge. But I don't understand it. Unlike homosexualism, which is just reversed heterosexualism. Despite having knowledge, I don't even understand what gender is. I don't understand how one can -internally- feel male or female. I'm male because I have male body, if I had female body I'd be female. Actually I think that ithis concept is the hardest to understand for the people who don't have strong -internal- identity, who identify themselves a lot more with themselves, than with their "gender".

So don't expect people to -understand-. Someone with your own issues? Yes. Someone with your issues, but reversed? Yes. But someone else? Not always. I'd even say, rarely.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Ayattar

[Troj]

At the same time, people can't expect others to be mind readers, so if someone flubs your pronouns, it's often best to give them the benefit of the doubt and non-defensively correct them.

Personally, I think you also have to know yourself and be honest with yourself about how you appear to others. It might be sad that you can't seamlessly pass or flawlessly present the way you'd like, but at a certain point, you've got to come to terms with that, and not beat yourself or others up for it.

 

 

[Butters]

It's hard to understand things that you can't replicate. Humans are their own words and everyone sees the world differently. Hence you can't expect anyone to understand more than the technical or the theoretical side of a problem. I know that gender dysphoria exist, I know everything connectied to it which could be find in widely accesible knowledge. But I don't understand it. Unlike homosexualism, which is just reversed heterosexualism. Despite having knowledge, I don't even understand what gender is. I don't understand how one can -internally- feel male or female. I'm male because I have male body, if I had female body I'd be female. Actually I think that ithis concept is the hardest to understand for the people who don't have strong -internal- identity, who identify themselves a lot more with themselves, than with their "gender".

So don't expect people to -understand-. Someone with your own issues? Yes. Someone with your issues, but reversed? Yes. But someone else? Not always. I'd even say, rarely.

Then there needs to be more listening then. 

[GreenReaper]

This. Is it really that hard to change pronouns to make the other person feel comfortable, @GreenReaper? 

When a person's preferred pronouns have a meaning, using them would either render them meaningless as a form of communication, or (more likely) mislead those I was talking to. If I consistently described male people as "he" - which is in line with common usage - and then called a female person "he", I'd be implying that they were male.

I'm glad to avoid pronouns which convey a meaning - like others, I'm often far more comfortable using "they". What I won't do is to use words which do convey a meaning if that use would be inconsistent with how I'd normally use them. This would be true regardless of what that meaning is - if it is not consistent, it is worse than useless.

Basically, comfort is a two way street. I'm not comfortable saying something that I don't mean, and I don't expect others to be, either. So, we figure out something that works for both of us - just as the territory of the People's Republic of China is referred to diplomatically as "mainland China" by both the PRC and Taiwan.

you don't get to decide what someone else's gender is

There's a difference between how you see yourself - gender identity - and how others see you. If "he" or "she" are taken referring to gender, then when you use those terms to talk to someone, you're communicating your beliefs about the appearance and behaviours of a third party - i.e. whether you believe they are masculine or feminine.

If you try to say "you must call me X^pronoun", where X "means something" to another person, you're telling them that they can't express their own opinion as to "who you are" - that only your opinion may be spoken. To me, that goes beyond "polite" or "considerate" - it's equivalent to compelling others to express your beliefs, rather than theirs.

Members of a group are likely to have differing opinions of what constitutes masculinity and femininity, and differing experiences of a particular person - so if you base pronouns on their evaluations of gender, you'll inevitably get cases where there is disagreement on "what the right word is". (This is one reason not to base pronouns on gender.)

I've had a few people call me "she" on the basis of their gender evaluation, even though I'd use "he" on the basis of sex. If I really wanted to change the word they used, I'd change how I looked/acted and show that I met their criteria for "he", rather than trying to tell them what to say. But I don't really see a point in doing so. All I care about is that they are being consistent to their own usage, and that others understand what they mean by the word.

--

To move on to a slightly different topic… it occurred to me last night that the reason you see a lot of overlap between furry and trans communities is that in some respects it's essentially the same thing, just with species. At the risk of greatly simplifying the issue: some trans people appreciate/identify more with masculine/feminine characteristics, or wish to possess male/female/no sexual characteristics; others believe they are male/female/neither, and that their body is wrong. There's the same distinction between furries and therians/otherkin; the latter express the belief that they are non-human in some way; the former do not, even if they might wish to become a different species.

The difference is that dragons/sergals/talking wolves don't yet exist in real life, while we have the medical technology to change a person's physical sex, or at least expressions of it. However, due to society's wish to avoid funding "wants" vs. "needs", this facility is often only granted to those who express a belief that they are a different sex, and who are experiencing mental anguish, rather than those who simply wish that they were. It's as if you could get an incredibly realistic fursuit, but only by expressing therian beliefs. The issue might be less fraught if everyone could get one regardless of the beliefs they held or expressed, but that's not likely to happen anytime soon for a variety of reasons.

(If it became possible to change your species, I'm sure we'd have therians demanding the right to do so. That would be… interesting.)

   Furries tend to be good about comprehending LGBT stuff they just cant determine when the proper time to wear their murrsuit is

The answer is all the time. (Seriously, I met a therian who told me she had sex in her fursuit because it made her feel closer to her true self. True to form, she wore it around everywhere. I admire her consistency, but I do hope she washed afterwards.)

Edited October 4, 2015 by GreenReaper

[Ayattar]

What? I can't believe you're comparing people with disorders to some mentally screwed bastards and attention whores

[GreenReaper]

Forgive me, but I'm not quite sure what groups you are referring to!

What is a "disorder" is a matter of medical opinion, which tends to change significantly over time (see: being gay over the last few centuries). Given the history of medicalization, it would be a relatively small step from species dysphoria to a diagnosis of species identity disorder - already mulled in psychological literature, including a paper from my alma mater - with an associated treatment plan.

Edited October 4, 2015 by GreenReaper

[Ayattar]

I'm refering to people with species dysphoria and therians, especially the latter, being the true cuckoos.

And seeing people changing their species would be nice. Finally, we'd be able to have truly intelligent prey.

[AshleyAshes]

God damn it GreenReaper, this augment has NEVER worked out for you in the past, why are you doing it yet again?

[Tsuujou]

God damn it GreenReaper, this augment has NEVER worked out for you in the past, why are you doing it yet again?

Ego?

[GreenReaper]

I'm refering to people with species dysphoria and therians, especially the latter, being the true cuckoos.

Oh? And yet, just fifty years ago, it would have been considered preposterous among most clinicians to consider a medical or surgical approach for what was then seen as a psychological disorder. Only very recently has SRS started to become covered by medical insurance in the USA.

Would it be any better to allow a person to suffer because they believe they are truly a wolf, if there were some treatment by which they could be turned into one? Remember, the goal is to decrease the patient's suffering, not to pass judgement on their state of mind. (It might have helped Stalking Cat.)

And seeing people changing their species would be nice. Finally, we'd be able to have truly intelligent prey.

One of my favourite novels explores this very possibility, albeit from the perspective of humans being hunted by aliens. Sadly, the humans win, but it's still a good read.

Edited October 4, 2015 by GreenReaper

[Vae]

Honestly, what's so difficult about correcting your mental associations with someone, just because you already formed an opinion?
If you call someone by the wrong name, and they correct you, would you still call them by the previous name? Why?

Either this is the product of a massive incapability for real-time learning, or ego bordering on sociopathy, both of which are problems that need to be addressed and responsibility taken for. But it's not the other person's obligation to sit and entertain it for your own sake.


OnT: I've thought about buying a binder and presenting myself as "male," even though I'm not explicitly ftm. ("Apathetic" or "fluid" I feel are better descriptors for what I am.)

I don't really have an opinion on transgenderism, either way. In the same sense that I don't have an opinion on races or names.
It's nothing for me to pass any kind of judgement on.

Although I will agree with a few posts made earlier in the thread that it does support gender stereotypes, in its own way. I realize this is a product of our society, because like it or not, there are some very hard-coded ideas of what make up "males" and "females" in a behavioral sense, that color our understanding of the world.
But there's not much we can do about that. (At least not immediately.)
So I do understand why people gravitate towards and identify with those concepts.

[Ayattar]

[things]

No. Global goal is to heal, not to decrease the suffering. If that was true, instead of healing various diseases we'd be stuffing patients full with morphine.

[Troj]

I'd say the goal of mental health is generally to increase functioning and reduce suffering, especially since what it means to "heal" from a mental or emotional health issue is sometimes a bit dicey and subjective.

This is why I'm in favor of supporting people in their choice to transition. Previous attempts to "heal" people by making them deny their dysphoria or conform to standard gender norms have largely ended in tragedy, so that sort of approach is a dead end. Allowing people to transition as they see fit has shown more favorable outcomes. It's not the perfect solution in 100% of cases, but it's better than what's been tried before.

Ego?

I'd say, a desperate need to have one's argument and thinking on an issue heard and understood.

I have that tendency myself--until somebody says, "Troj, we get what you're saying, and that's an interesting point," I'll keep hammering the same point until the end of time.

I've had to learn to remind myself that disagreement isn't necessarily due to a misunderstanding, and/or to anyone's actual facts being wrong, so you can't necessarily bring about agreement on an issue just by clarifying your point, or by re-stating the facts.

[Gator]

"hi, my name is sherry"
"well, you look like a rob to me, so i'mma call you rob"

"but i'm a woman... and my name is sherry"

"if you wanted me to call you sherry, you'd be wearing a pink miniskirt and have hair down to your ass, 'cause that's how i think a woman named sherry should look.  rob."

 

yeah ok

biological men and women come in all shapes, sizes, and styles.  transgender men and women are no different.  you don't have to have a certain "look" to be a certain gender.  that's not how it works.  there might be a norm regarding how men or women typically appear/what traits they usually have, but there have always been exceptions--and not just with transgender people, but with cisgender ones, as well.  are you saying it's ok to call even a cisgender woman a man, regardless of her feelings, just because she looks masculine to you?  because that's just ridiculous.  it would be one thing if you hadn't spoken to her, and assumed she was a man by mistake.  but if she tells you "no, i'm a woman", it is not up to you to correct her on her own gender.  accepting the fact that not all men or women look the same does not make distinctive gender pronouns "meaningless".

 

 

[Bloodshot_Eyes]

I'd say the goal of mental health is generally to increase functioning and reduce suffering, especially since what it means to "heal" from a mental or emotional health issue is sometimes a bit dicey and subjective.

This is why I'm in favor of supporting people in their choice to transition. Previous attempts to "heal" people by making them deny their dysphoria or conform to standard gender norms have largely ended in tragedy, so that sort of approach is a dead end. Allowing people to transition as they see fit has shown more favorable outcomes. It's not the perfect solution in 100% of cases, but it's better than what's been tried before.

Healing=integration imo

Forcing someone to reject aspects of themselves is only going to cause more problems.

Imagine all of your different faces, qualities, personalities and whatnot. All of these are aspects of you; when you reject any of them you feel that rejection as a piece of yourself being rejected. Do this to enough aspects of yourself and you eventually feel as if a significant chunk of your being is rejected. Low self worth is caused when a significant portion of your person is rejected. When you integrate with your rejected aspects, the whole is able to function as the whole it was intended to function as.

In nature function is inherent in form, if you take away enough aspects of that form the structure collapses; reject enough of a persons psyche and they break. 

Shit's weird man, why not let it be weird. There's no such thing as paranormal, it's all normal, it's happening. You just have no idea how.