Transgender People

[Vallium]

To be honest, I cant comprehend gender and the differences between them without the 'binary', so to speak. The way I see it, there are two sides of the spectrum, in which on one end you have 'masculine' and all associated traits and 'feminine' on another with all associated traits.

Nobody is 100% one way or another, as most of these activities were culturally attributed to one role or another when really people can have either sometimes.

However, I feel most people are going to lean more one end or another in possessing certain combinations of traits, and that feels like what gender is one or the other (or even neither/both).

 

I can see WHY people dictate in their mind what someone elses gender should be, but I would still use pronouns anyways out of courtesy (though Ive yet to run into anyone in life who hs asked such).

If gender was just a word and had no traits involved it would seem moot (to me). For example, MOST women would not call themselve a woman, and continue to wear "mens" clothes, have short hair, facial hair, deep voices, flat pectorals, and probably a penis.

Edited October 4, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1

[Spawtsie Paws]

+1 transgender.

 

However, I am losing hope. I wish everyone else the best of luck.

[Ayattar]

Nobody is 100% one way or another, as most of these activities were culturally attributed to one role or another when really people can have either sometimes.

I am. I'm 100% me :U

[Monochromatic-Dragon]

 

To move on to a slightly different topic… it occurred to me last night that the reason you see a lot of overlap between furry and trans communities is that in some respects it's essentially the same thing, just with species. At the risk of greatly simplifying the issue: some trans people appreciate/identify more with masculine/feminine characteristics, or wish to possess male/female/no sexual characteristics; others believe they are male/female/neither, and that their body is wrong. There's the same distinction between furries and therians/otherkin; the latter express the belief that they are non-human in some way; the former do not, even if they might wish to become a different species.

The difference is that dragons/sergals/talking wolves don't yet exist in real life, while we have the medical technology to change a person's physical sex, or at least expressions of it. However, due to society's wish to avoid funding "wants" vs. "needs", this facility is often only granted to those who express a belief that they are a different sex, and who are experiencing mental anguish, rather than those who simply wish that they were. It's as if you could get an incredibly realistic fursuit, but only by expressing therian beliefs. The issue might be less fraught if everyone could get one regardless of the beliefs they held or expressed, but that's not likely to happen anytime soon for a variety of reasons.

(If it became possible to change your species, I'm sure we'd have therians demanding the right to do so. That would be… interesting.)

The answer is all the time. (Seriously, I met a therian who told me she had sex in her fursuit because it made her feel closer to her true self. True to form, she wore it around everywhere. I admire her consistency, but I do hope she washed afterwards.)

Furries are not all Therians.... I very much doubt that most furries want to be anything other than human. 

[MuttButt]

Furries are not all Therians.... I very much doubt that most furries want to be anything other than human. 

I definitely agree with you. There are certainly some furries that feel that way, but i'd say the majority of furries are just interested in the fandom because they enjoy the whole anthro animal aesthetic, not because they're having some kind of deep seated identity crisis. 

[Monochromatic-Dragon]

I definitely agree with you. There are certainly some furries that feel that way, but i'd say the majority of furries are just interested in the fandom because they enjoy the whole anthro animal aesthetic, not because they're having some kind of deep seated identity crisis. 

But then again if its Egoraptor we're dealing with (again) there's no fixing his stupid. 

Oh well, there are plenty of Otherkin out there who would disagree with him. 

[Fantasma]

@Spawtsie Paws    

We're here for you.

 

I have to say, as a transgirl who hasn't really transitioned externally, that if you are one of the unlucky people who repressed themselves while younger it's a journey to find and then express yourself *internally* muchless externally.

[Kaizy]

I definitely agree with you. There are certainly some furries that feel that way, but i'd say the majority of furries are just interested in the fandom because they enjoy the whole anthro animal aesthetic, not because they're having some kind of deep seated identity crisis. 

Yeah, I really hate the comparison of being a furry to being trans. Please don't compare being transgender to being Therian or otherkin or something. That makes things so much worse.

[Lucyfish]

Don't hate me cuz i'm a beautiful fish on the inside

[Kaizy]

Don't hate me cuz i'm a beautiful fish on the inside

You've always been a fabulous fish tho

[Eggdodger]

Thanks for all the replies, guys. I'm really getting a broad perspective of the range of thoughts and perceptions of trans people.

For people who are a little further down the road than I am: How did you go about acquiring hormones? I was told that perhaps consulting an endocrinologist through my primary healthcare provider would prove the quickest, but I would like a second opinion before I go forwards with that motion.

[GreenReaper]

Honestly, what's so difficult about correcting your mental associations with someone, just because you already formed an opinion?

What's to correct? You seem to be implying that a person's self-perceptions should trump the perceptions of others…? o_O

If you change your name, and it's accepted by the community, it'd be smart to use it, or pretty soon nobody would know who you were talking about. (The caveat is that in some locations you can't just change your name. In the linked case it was refused - again, on the basis that it implied something incorrect, lit. that the subject was physically a dog.)

    are you saying it's ok to call even a cisgender woman a man, regardless of her feelings, just because she looks masculine to you?

Well I wouldn't call a person "he" if I knew that they were female [sex], regardless of how masculine they appeared. Beyond that, I'd try not to offend; if I believed that a person was transgender, I'd probably use "they" straight off the bat. If they'd physically transitioned, "he" or "she" would probably be appropriate.

I do believe that gender as a social construct is, by definition, a matter of collective opinion. However, a particular subject might choose to influence observers by adopting a look and taking actions consistent with perceptions of their gender identity. [It helps if the observer isn't trying to be obnoxious, as they were in the quoted example.]

That said, psychologists have scored masculinity and femininity on different scales for years, so classifying someone as "a man" or "a woman" may not be all that helpful. We are multifaceted, ever-changing individuals - not one-sided stereotypes.

 

Allowing people to transition as they see fit has shown more favorable outcomes. It's not the perfect solution in 100% of cases, but it's better than what's been tried before.

 I generally agree here. As noted on Wikipedia, pure psychological approaches tend to be ineffective. The funding delay is regrettable.

I've had to learn to remind myself that disagreement isn't necessarily due to a misunderstanding, and/or to anyone's actual facts being wrong, so you can't necessarily bring about agreement on an issue just by clarifying your point, or by re-stating the facts.

Indeed. Almost all arguments boil down to differing opinions, some of which may not be resolved. I don't expect others to share my values; I just want to communicate where I'm coming from, just as I might seek to understand where they are coming from. This is useful even if we don't ultimately agree on a shared course of action.

In this case I think there is a lot of misunderstanding floating around, in part due to overloading of the word "gender" to mean "sex". The rest is down to having different goals, beliefs and value systems. The only thing we have in common is an interest in anthropomorphic animals, so such differences are to be expected.

Furries are not all Therians.... I very much doubt that most furries want to be anything other than human. 

That is technically correct… but it's close. As of 2009, 45% (22 23%) of Anthrocon attendees would choose to be "0% human". In 2012, the ARP found that therian furs are significantly more likely than non-therian furs to want to be 0% human (52% vs. 35%). Other results suggest that therians are effectively "a more dedicated furry", although they should be taken with a pinch of salt, as the source population was all furry.

[Kalmor]

It's just more about having some human decency and not acting like an asshole when someone corrects you on something that's very important to them than anything else,  @GreenReaper

Edited October 4, 2015 by Kalmor

[Monochromatic-Dragon]

Therians are nothing at all like Furries, other than the fact that both communities have "something to do with animals". 

The distinction: Furries are fans of anthropomorphic animals. Therians identify as feral animals native to Earth.

Furries are FANS. Therian is an IDENTITY. WAYY DIFFERENT. 

 

You're not really doing anything but isolating yourself from both communities by spreading all of this misinformation. So like, why bother? 

 

[Eggdodger]

Green, would you mind making a thread on therians if you want to talk about them? I think I understand the similarity you're trying to draw here, but I think it would fit best in its own thread so we can continue to have quality conversation regarding transgender people.

Again, if anyone could point me in the right direction as far as prescription hormones... That'd be great.

[Kaizy]

Yeah please don't bring Therian discussion into a transgender thread. They're not the same.

[Llamapotamus]

'Polak' in polish means litteraly "a male Pole". Female version of it would be 'Polka'. So I'd say no, unless it's used with intent (provided that a Pole even know english well enough). I guess it's the same as with "Ruskie".

Back to the original question, there are several things that are plaguing us. First, society feeling indebted to the catholic church for it's role in the fight against the communism in the 80's. That before it church was cooperating with the regime being of no importance. Second, older generations, who holds most of the political power being molded in the spirit of being indebted to the church. Third, the legacy of pope John Paul II being a real scourge. Fourth, coherent society, not being susceptible to changes. Fifth, church directly controling ca. 20% of the votes and being opinion-forming in regard to at least 30% more.

Now, in the last few years we've seen some change here - first gay MP, then trans MP, and in the end gay becoming a president of the city. There have been a try on introducing civil unions and finally that. Also, there have been a movement demanding dropping religion lessons from the school, in which I'm participating myself.

Whilst officialy, according to various sources from 85% up to 95% of the Poles are catholics, in reality those numbers are far less. It's like that mainly because it's near to impossible to get apostasy without changing religion to the other.. 57% of the Poles trust catholic church, 40% attend to the church regularily and only 16% attends to the sacraments (thank you penance and reconciliation for being here!).

Now in every day life in the percentage, it looks similarly. Church isn't interfering with your everyday's business. It only acivates every time where some major changes are to happen - and only when those changes are against churches' principles, and when it's possible that they'll shake it's monopoly. Then, out of sudden everyone goes apeshit crazy about traditions of the forefathers and nation's heritage.

And everyone who's 40-50, so most of the recognizable leftist activists are automatically labelled ex-commie, no matter what cause it might be. That makes progress even harder, since all accountable leftist (so - liberal) politicians are young and lack necessary authority (which comes together with silver hair or baldness).

Ah, and to make it sure. Left and right here aren't what they are in the US. PiS, at the moment biggest party, which is going to win the next elections is conservative (society) and socialistic (economy). Second biggest party, PO (current party) is centrist (society) and mildly socialistic (economy). Next comes SLD which is liberal (society) and ultra-socialistic (economy). PSL is a populistic party without a programme, focusing on the farmers only. Then there are some very small and irrelevant rightist parties, all conservative (society) and varying from ultra-liberal to ultra-social with even something slightly resembling national socialism or even soviet socialism included in the middle, when it comes to the economy. Don't even try to understand it.

Getting back on topic.

So, few recent years were really nice in terms of change, but it's bound to stop in like... three weeks (parliament elections). And since current party that holds the majority (ie. PO) screwed a big time over some international and economical decisions (full submission to the European Union both economically and socially, recent immigrant crisis included, as well as not protecting our own industry at all) blatantly lieing to the citizens, they're done. And so we can expect Poland going full catholic-retarded for at least 4 next years, pretty much like Hungary.. And in some way it already stopped since our current president is a member of PiS, so he's veto-ing everything

In some way I think it's good, because there is nothing easier to finally deal with PiS and churches faction, than giving them too much power, and oppurtunities to abuse it.

So, is it safe to say life for trans-gendered Poles will be tougher for awhile?

I don't know any trans-gendered people IRL...only here. Is cis-guilt a thing, btw?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Llamapotamus

[Vae]

  What's to correct? You seem to be implying that a person's self-perceptions should trump the perceptions of others…? o_O

Yes.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
Your perceptions of a person do not override their identity. Don't kid yourself. You're not nearly important enough.

Also, humans actually do fall under gender classifications in real life.
The dog comparison is entirely irrelevant to this.

[Ayattar]

So, is it safe to say life for trans-gendered Poles will be tougher for awhile?

Don't think so. There are other groups that are easier to pick-on. Ie. migrants from the middle-east and northern Africa.

[Troj]

Yes.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
Your perceptions of a person do not override their identity. Don't kid yourself. You're not nearly important enough.

Also, humans actually do fall under gender classifications in real life.
The dog comparison is entirely irrelevant to this.

Certainly, even when we're certain that someone's perception of themselves is wrong, we still need to tread lightly, and respect the other person's boundaries and basic dignity.

I think my earlier reference to religion is still pretty apt here. As an atheist, I think theists' and supernaturalists' perception of reality is wrong, and I bet they feel the same about me. Feeling that the other is fundamentally wrong doesn't entitle either of us to lecture each other un-invited about the "truth" of reality.

You're on even thinner ice if you try to argue with someone about their feelings. Saying, "I feel like a woman" or "I feel like a cat," or even "I should have been a cat" or "I should have been born a woman" is different from someone saying, "I am currently a woman," or "I am absolutely a cat." You might be able to make a case for someone not being a woman or a cat, but you're definitely wasting your time and being a jerk if your argument wanders into the territory of telling someone how they feel, or how they ought to feel.

 

[Imperial Impact]

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

I appreciate transgenders who are open about their sexuality rather than brush off questions and deny about it.

[AshleyAshes]

I appreciate transgenders who are open about their sexuality rather than brush off questions and deny about it.

Why do people have to answer questions about their sexuality?

[Ayattar]

Why do people have to answer questions about their sexuality?

Because otherwise they may be mistaken for the lobsters.

[Tsuujou]

Why do people have to answer questions about their sexuality?

Because some people like to get irrationally upset when you honestly mistake them for a gender or sexual orientation as if you intended to offend them. It's better to avoid that situation in my experience. I've asked a few people about their various orientations if something made me unsure and they were happy to see that I showed a modicum of compassion rather than make an embarrassing assumption about them.

Of course there's a difference between being open about your sexuality and being obnoxious about it.

[Bloodshot_Eyes]

Why do people have to answer questions about their sexuality?

Because some people are curious; and being that we have first hand experience with the subject, we'd be considered large data bases on that particular subject. 

Without the answers of those that experience these phenomena first hand, the only answers they have are from those who know jack shit about the subject. 

I'm not saying we got it all or can answer every question about it. But information regarding trans-people would be much more valuable coming from a trans person than a cishet dude with no experience. 

[AshleyAshes]

Because some people are curious; and being that we have first hand experience with the subject, we'd be considered large data bases on that particular subject. 

Without the answers of those that experience these phenomena first hand, the only answers they have are from those who know jack shit about the subject. 

I'm not saying we got it all or can answer every question about it. But information regarding trans-people would be much more valuable coming from a trans person than a cishet dude with no experience. 

Ah, I see, so that's why Mikazuki Marazhu is entitled to expect answers to questions about peoples sexuality.  Got it.

Edited October 5, 2015 by AshleyAshes

[Troj]

What kind of questions are we talking about, though?

It strikes me that "What do you preferred to be called?" and "What are your preferred pronouns?" are fair questions.

"How do you have sex?" and "What type of junk are ya packin'?" are not.

[AshleyAshes]

What kind of questions are we talking about, though?

It strikes me that "What do you preferred to be called?" and "What are your preferred pronouns?" are fair questions.

He said sexuality.  Those aren't questions about sexuality.

[Dijon]

"where do you like to stick it/like it to be stuck"

[Eggdodger]

I've been trying to train my voice to get out of the "baritone" range I'm used to speaking in. I had a really squeaky voice until puberty, then it was instant man: just add water. Anyways, I hear that most of the progress will come after I get hormones, but I've been pointed in the right direction. I'll have to wait two months, one week til my 18th birthday to get past the gatekeepers, but it'll be worth it.

[Bloodshot_Eyes]

Ah, I see, so that's why Mikazuki Marazhu is entitled to expect answers to questions about peoples sexuality.  Got it.

Dude...

"I appreciate transgenders who are open about their sexuality rather than brush off questions and deny about it."

That is not demanding answers. It's appreciating people that talk openly about his curiosities. No one said you have to answer him; to my awareness nobody said anybody had to answer his questions. He just likes it when people do. 

You were the only person who implied requirement. 

 

[Spawtsie Paws]

In short: Gender Identity =/= Gender Expression or Sexual Orientation. And with that, each of these aspects are very different from one individual to the next.

 

I feel like trying to explain what it means to be transgender confuses people more than it clarifies. Most people just can not comprehend what it is like to reject yourself at a biological level. It ruins your self image and effects every aspect of your life.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Spawtsie Paws

[Ayattar]

I've been trying to train my voice to get out of the "baritone" range I'm used to speaking in. I had a really squeaky voice until puberty, then it was instant man: just add water. Anyways, I hear that most of the progress will come after I get hormones, but I've been pointed in the right direction. I'll have to wait two months, one week til my 18th birthday to get past the gatekeepers, but it'll be worth it.

Looking at my musical experience with voice training, I don't think it can help you very much. Maybe it would be worth looking into shortening the vocal chords?

[Eggdodger]

 Looking at my musical experience with voice training, I don't think it can help you very much. Maybe it would be worth looking into shortening the vocal chords?

That's possible, but as somebody with an aversion to cutting things inside of myself if unnecessary, I would probably try vocal training with professionals first.

[Aresh]

yeah but Im stuck hiding it in order to have a place to live

[Kaizy]

I appreciate transgenders who are open about their sexuality rather than brush off questions and deny about it.

While yes, it is nice to have people willing to discuss their gender identity/sexuality, not everyone wants to talk about these things on a personal level, and they aren't entitled to give you answers if they aren't comfortable doing so. No one's "brushing off questions" to be a dick or something, they're probably just not comfortable talking about certain things.

[Vallium]

yeah but Im stuck hiding it in order to have a place to live

It does suck. You just have to do what you can under the radar sometimes...sometimes youre just never going to truly be exactly ideal.

[Tsuujou]

Ah, I see, so that's why Mikazuki Marazhu is entitled to expect answers to questions about peoples sexuality.  Got it.

Ok you're being extra for no reason. It's like when someone says something remotely off color (to you) you just instantly paint them as an enemy. Marazhu is not the type to be a douche and would probably have accepted that he could have reworded his statement better. His intent was clear though regardless...and it wasn't entitlement.

Didn't you make a thread about how great it was to no longer be angry and arguing on the Internet before FAF was wiped? So what happened? You've been getting in people's faces a lot lately over small stuff.

[AshleyAshes]

Ok you're being extra

At the risk of sounding uncool, not hip, and not with it, I must admit to you that I have no idea what 'Being Extra' means.

Edited October 6, 2015 by AshleyAshes

[Vallium]

 

 

At the risk of sounding uncool, not hip, and not with it, I must admit to you that I have no idea what 'Being Extra' means.

Context tells me they might've missed a word after extra, but I agree with the statement. Sometimes people say things in a different way or have a variant opinion it does not automatically make them an awful person. If you know them from the context of the rest of what they post they'd probably be pretty chill. Sometimes people occassionally make ignorant, dumb, or poorly worded statement and need only be corrected, not chastised.

Edited October 6, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1

[AshleyAshes]

Context tells me they might've missed a word after extra,

'Being Extra' sounds like it'd be some kinda slang to me.

[Ayattar]

Ok you're being extra for no reason. It's like when someone says something remotely off color (to you) you just instantly paint them as an enemy. Marazhu is not the type to be a douche and would probably have accepted that he could have reworded his statement better. His intent was clear though regardless...and it wasn't entitlement.

Didn't you make a thread about how great it was to no longer be angry and arguing on the Internet before FAF was wiped? So what happened? You've been getting in people's faces a lot lately over small stuff.

As far as i know, Mika is not a native speaker and he sometimes has issues with wording himself properly.
Yet, I, as well as some other users, was able to catch on what he meant. But if someone likes to nit-pick just for the idea of nit-picking and being edgy alone, that can't be helped.

[Vallium]

'Being Extra' sounds like it'd be some kinda slang to me.

There's also google

[Toboe]

'Being Extra' sounds like it'd be some kinda slang to me.

Oh gurl~

Is that a [§item] in your pants or are you being extra?

[Butters]

He meant extreme. 

[Tsuujou]

At the risk of sounding uncool, not hip, and not with it, I must admit to you that I have no idea what 'Being Extra' means.

It's slang where I'm from for dramatic. I'm not sure how widespread it is. I've been using it since middle school so it's a habit.

[Imperial Impact]

Here's a laughing transgender

[Kellie Gator]

As a trans gal I've been wondering a lot about my fellow trans people but I dunno if I can explain it in a way that doesn't sound shitty of me.

Basically, I wonder if there's been some kind of trans boom and what might've caused it?

See, when I was coming to terms with my gender identity back in 2008 I didn't even really know what a transgender person WAS aside from transphobic media stereotypes. I didn't know other trans people IRL or online. I had to figure it all out myself with google searches to obscure websites and consult counselors and psychologists. I truly felt like a minority, alone in being trans.

Now things seem to have changed. Trans people are everywhere. People I've dated or had romantic interests in turned out to be trans afterwards which was awkward for me because I'm mostly straight and into men, not women. Friends turn out to be trans. There are massive networks like tumblr and stuff now.

I guess what I wonder is, what happened? Is this some passing fad that people just jump into or is there genuinely more awareness about trans people now than it was when I had to come terms with being a woman? There's been this inexplicable boom I can't understand... but there's nothing wrong with that, of course. Trans people are awesome.

Just, err... I dunno where I'm going with this. I could make a hipster joke and say I was trans before it was cool or something but... I dunno. ._.

halp plz

Edited October 10, 2015 by Kellie Gator

[Ayattar]

halp plz

It's simple. Thanks to transitioning basement dwellers can finally wank to their reflections in the mirrors.

Otherwise, the differences in occurence between similarly tolerant and developed countries can't be explained. Ie. 0,05% in Belgium and Netherlands compared to 1,2% in New Zealand.