Zaush in some hot water again

[Crazy Lee]

I'm not even sure if this is newsworthy or not.

I came across these posts claiming that someone had found that Zaush used child porn, real life child porn, as references to draw his underaged furry porn. Zaush may deny this, but let's be real, he does draw underage characters. One is a dog of some type, she looks like a yellow lab, and who I thought was in early high school.  Here's a link to the character, which is labeled clean on FA, so can probably be posted here (if not, mods, I'll screencap it). And I just found this comment which says she's 11. And I know I've seen this character in some of his porn. I don't know if that porn has been posted on FA before but I feel like it has.

Oh, I guess it has been posted on FA. I can't link it to here, but just look through his gallery to find a comic called "Daddy's little secret". Has the lab girl's character in it getting plowed.
Yep. Cub porn is not allowed on FA. Except if it's Zaush. Because Zaush gives Dragoneer the blowjobs he oh so desperately craves.

Anyway, while digging through a whole bunch of posts and threads the only thing I can find about Zaush using CP is that he used pictures of girls in bathing suits as art references. Creepy, yes, but not child porn if the children have some sort of clothing on that covers their parts. There is one picture of someone nude doing a selfie who might be an adult though, it's hard to tell.

Here's the threads where I've seen info about this.
https://kiwifarms.net/threads/zaush-adam-wan.34183/page-7#post-3118017

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=221797041719399&id=186139951951775

If he is just using images of kids in swimsuits, that's not illegal. If he IS using CP, then that's illegal. Either way he's creepy.

TL;DR: Zaush draws girls who are 11 in his porn and posts them on FA, which is a violation of the rules, and gets away from it because he's popfur, staff, and succ dragoneer dick. He also uses images of kids in bathing suits for reference, and possibly CP (but not fully proven). Also, Zaush is a creep.

Edit: Screencapped that "She's 11" comment in case it disappears, doubt it though.

[Victor-933]

48 minutes ago, Crazy Lee said:

TL;DR: Zaush draws girls who are 11 in his porn and posts them on FA, which is a violation of the rules, and gets away from it because he's popfur, staff, and succ dragoneer dick. He also uses images of kids in bathing suits for reference, and possibly CP (but not fully proven). Also, Zaush is a creep.

[TrishaCat]

I saw this mess on Twitter a few days ago. All the pornography within his chat logs were of adults from what I've read; there was no cp involved contrary to what many have assumed from what I understand.  There were a list of names of the actors involved, but I can't find it for some reason.

People overblew this. Some people might still use some of the iffy stuff in his conversations to incriminate him, but the context of the conversation was in reference to the cub art he was being commissioned. I've said it before; I do not believe cartoon porn has any relevancy or relationship with real world paraphilias and don't think its fair to conflate content such as cub art to actual CP. So I don't think Zaush actually did anything wrong here. Some might find it creepy and I guess that's fair though.

As for FA, if FA wants to be a professional site they should have consistency in their moderation regarding what content they allow and don't allow. Zaush shouldn't be allowed to get away with breaking the site rules just because he's popular.

[Vae]

5 minutes ago, Battlechili said:

People overblew this. Some people might still use some of the iffy stuff in his conversations to incriminate him, but the context of the conversation was in reference to the cub art he was being commissioned. I've said it before; I do not believe cartoon porn has any relevancy or relationship with real world paraphilias and don't think its fair to conflate content such as cub art to actual CP. So I don't think Zaush actually did anything wrong here. Some might find it creepy and I guess that's fair though.

He literally said, in factual terms, that 12 was the lowest age for something to be "fuckable."

Paint it however you want with censorship arguments or "real life versus art," a pedophile's a fuckin pedophile.
And no one who's not a pedophile makes statements like this or thinks this way.

He also has a story about sexually grooming a minor in his submissions so,
you know,
there's that too.

[TrishaCat]

31 minutes ago, Vae said:

He literally said, in factual terms, that 12 was the lowest age for something to be "fuckable."

I don't really know what to say without sounding like I'm repeating myself. Contextually he was talking about a drawn commission. I suspect anyone taking cub art commissions will be explaining their art in ways that may seem dubious out of context (or, for those who think cub art IS CP, then its of course dubious in context). I don't believe he was saying there that he finds actual 12 year olds to be "fuckable" due to him talking about drawing art. As I said, I don't consider drawn porn to have any relationship with real life paraphilias, so I'm not going to consider someone a pedophile unless they have an attraction to actual, real, human children. Said statement within the context of his commission isn't enough evidence for me to consider him a pedo. If he says something similar without any context saying basically "I'm attracted to actual children" then I would consider him pedo.

EDIT: I dunno; I spent most of my earlier internet years on an anime forum so I've seen these arguments pop up over and over again regarding certain anime. Between all the fighting I just came to the conclusion that nothing is off limits in art and things that would normally be deemed immoral in real life aren't immoral in art and don't reflect on the people who make or consume said art with regards to real life. That said, if there ever comes a day when there's concrete, definitive evidence that the content within fiction is directly related to one's real life actions, then I will change my mind. Otherwise I just see it as being similar to the "video game violence causes actual violence" argument.

[Vae]

15 hours ago, Battlechili said:

I just came to the conclusion that nothing is off limits in art and things that would normally be deemed immoral in real life aren't immoral in art and don't reflect on the people who make or consume said art with regards to real life.

How is indulging in porn of children, fictional or not, not equivalent with pedophilia? Like how would any normal-thinking human look at something like that, and not have it raise a million and a half red flags?

It takes a pretty extreme lack of social awareness and basic understanding of how people work to go "That guy who said that prepubescence was the lower end of the sexual attraction scale. That's not indicative of pedophilia at all. Nope."

[QT Melon]

My general problem with these kinds of things, is that people like to go back and forth usually to enjoy causing drama especially if it's someone they dislike. Very few however do the right thing and go through reporting matters, very few actually do try to protect children and hide behind excuses as to why they don't even want to try. That bothers me greatly.

Let me make this clear as I can, there is no supporting Zaush. I just feel that people hang onto the drama and go back and forth too much so that if there was any truth to the matter it's now gone cuz it becomes hearsay and investigations that could have actually had some impact become tainted.

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

Why am I not surprised?

Adam Wan never had a good reputation to begin with and I'm not going to hold judgement until proven otherwise

[Tsuujou]

On 3/18/2018 at 5:17 PM, QT Melon said:

My general problem with these kinds of things, is that people like to go back and forth usually to enjoy causing drama especially if it's someone they dislike. Very few however do the right thing and go through reporting matters, very few actually do try to protect children and hide behind excuses as to why they don't even want to try. That bothers me greatly.

I actually brought this up with a friend. A lot of people who claim to care as much as they do were taking shit up with the wrong people in the wrong outlets if they did anything at all. Maybe you don't need to go to the FBI, but you could at least start small to get him snuffed out from places where he's breaching guidelines. Places where it will affect him. Which, surprisingly, is what people ended up doing to his Patreon to some moderate success. 

I think Zaush is a smug asshole, but I'm not personally invested in taking him down so I'm not arm flailing. But for the people who were going HAM about it on Twitter, Tumblr, Change.org, you would think they'd have gone above and beyond to see about getting an investigation started if they were confident he was a predator.

(Tell you what, he should have been banned from FA a loooong time ago. But if Dragoneer is YouTube, Zaush is Logan/Jake Paul.)

[Vae]

At least people are reporting his Patreon, so one of his support sources might actually be cut off, to have some kind of impact.

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

6 hours ago, Vae said:

At least people are reporting his Patreon, so one of his support sources might actually be cut off, to have some kind of impact.

https://kiwifarms.net/threads/zaush-adam-wan.34183/page-20#post-3155810

 

How sad

[Socketosis]

5 hours ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

https://kiwifarms.net/threads/zaush-adam-wan.34183/page-20#post-3155810

 

How sad

 

[QT Melon]

I'm kind of curious what people posted as evidence or even how they had the conversation with Patreon...like did they just post the screencaps and demand Patreon to get rid of the guy or what?

 

I just don't know Patreon's policy enough on these things or can make a judgement on how they review problem accounts. I guess I can get people being upset with the outcome but some of the responses, I feel like they don't know or understand how a policy works before shouting and being up in arms with the outcome not going their way.

[Crazy Lee]

22 hours ago, QT Melon said:

I'm kind of curious what people posted as evidence or even how they had the conversation with Patreon...like did they just post the screencaps and demand Patreon to get rid of the guy or what?

This Dogpatch article that I discovered recently seems to do a good job of explaining what's going on (even if it is Dogpatch).
http://dogpatch.press/2018/03/09/the-zaush-issue/#more-46525

Go past the meme images to the links that say "image 1, image 2, image 3" ect. And be forewarned, although supposedly there's nothing illegal in any of them, I'd clear your browser history just in case?

First image shows Zaush and a client talking about doing porn of two characters, one being described as 40ish, the other one the commissioner says should be 16. Zaush shows examples of a famous legal porn artist that looks underaged. Later screencaps show Zaush showing images of kids in bathing suits (not illegal in itself) and the commissioner (Colbalt) talking about making her younger, first 12, and then 10 years old, and thin so you can see the penis inside of her (one of the fetishes out there I hate... the body being distorted by the penis). Also, Zaush says you can go as low as 12 and they're still fuckable. Screencap:

I can understand if anyone's skeptical about whether these screencaps are actually a telegram conversation between Zaush and ColbaltDawg, but Zaush himself confirmed so on twitter.
(archive link)

I have two feelings on this. While the images in the screencaps supposedly depict a porn star named Sammy Daniels (I looked her up on video sites, she really doesn't look young at all) or pics of kids in swimsuits, those are not illegal at all. However, the conversation seems to be about Zaush drawing art of an underage character that they agree to have be 10 years old or so. AND, Zaush has done underaged characters before, including a yellow lab named Chelsea who looks 15 and ends up in two of his comics, "The Neighbor's Wife" and "Daddy's Little Secrets" where she fucks her own dad. Plus a character named Cynthia who shows up in "Daddy's Little Secrets" being plowed and who Zaush has said in the above link is 11. Both comics can be found on e621.

Having images of porn stars that look barely legal or images of kids in swimsuits in itself is not against the law, but considering that Zaush doodles underaged girls and seems to think they may be "fuckable", I'm not going to think any more highly of the guy. He shouldn't be staff of FA, but Dragoneer allows dogfuckers on his staff too so nothing is going to change.

[Socketosis]

10 hours ago, Crazy Lee said:

He shouldn't be staff of FA, but Dragoneer allows dogfuckers on his staff too so nothing is going to change.

Zaush isn't staff though. He just gets away with having cub porn on FA due to possible favoritism and the excuse that he "aged up" the characters.

[Troj]

AGED UP CHARACTER DONUT JUDGE ME GUYS

[Vae]

I had this discussion with a friend regarding both "looks 10, but is actually 400" and feral characters recently.

If you're getting off to a child's body, or a feral animal that speaks,
that is still what turns you on.
Those are still the forms that you are choosing to sexualize, despite having the option to draw a young-proportioned character more adult-framed, or a feral-proportioned character with more human physical characteristics.

You are still, by the definition of the terms, a pedophile / zoophile.

[QT Melon]

Right. I'm not asking what Zaush did, so much as what was the conversation people had with Patreon to expect or demand that it violates, with solid proof it should be taken down.

I asked before reading their content policy, but it was more or less what I assumed would be the case:

We understand that some topics on this list such as incest or rape are a little bit more complicated because these situations are, unfortunately, part of real life. As a result, when reviewing this type of content, the Trust and Safety team will take into consideration context including personal, historical or educational narrative. For example, survivor stories or fiction such as Game of Thrones or Lolita are allowed on Patreon.

Basically they reviewed the context of work. It's fiction. Therefore not exactly against their policy. No matter how much people dislike it or myself would like it. I get it though and Zaush in his statements while creepy and cringey isn't making statements about an actual girl in the context of the conversation but how it looks on a fictional level.  He is using reference but I absolutely understand why people object to it.

I don't know WTF are FA's policies anymore because Dragoneer flips more than a fish out of water on them. So if Zaush is postng the cubbies, he does need to be banned, that is if it's the current policy.

I have pretty much detached myself from the community for a long time now mainly because what was supposed to be a fun hobby became a chore in how people needed to conduct themselves, the audiences demanding how an artist should treat them/draw because they were our clients, and how everything became too commercialized in social interaction....but I digress...

 

I do have a rather negative opinion of Zaush  I'd like to see him nailed for certain things, I still have to take into account the context and how to report it.  That's as much as I'll expand on that since people try to argue on end and extrapolate way more into statements for this kind of drama.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GreenReaper]

My big issue is that this discussion got out in the first place. Commission discussions can have intensely private content, and Zaush should have taken more care to keep it private. In this particular case he was the one most injured by the disclosure, but it could easily have been the other way around.

I also think "Daddy's Little Secrets" should have been an Inkbunny exclusive, but naturally I'm a tad biased there~

[Tsuujou]

9 hours ago, GreenReaper said:

I also think "Daddy's Little Secrets" should have been an Inkbunny exclusive, but naturally I'm a tad biased there~

Yeah, shit can stay there. lol

[Vae]

"Who cares that someone said incredibly gross things about the concept of being underage?
Their privacy should be respected!"

A+ furry logic.
Would laugh again.

[GreenReaper]

Just taking it from a business perspective - and art is a business, right? Saying things like that may be gross, but probably not illegal in and of itself.
Allowing sensitive private information you've been entrusted with to be released, even inadvertently, is illegal in many places, including the whole of the EU; and probably ripe for civil damages elsewhere.

Of course there's mitigating circumstances in this case, in that Cobalt had been publicly commissioning this kind of stuff. 😼

[Socketosis]

1 hour ago, GreenReaper said:

Just taking it from a business perspective - and art is a business, right? Saying things like that may be gross, but probably not illegal in and of itself.
Allowing sensitive private information you've been entrusted with to be released, even inadvertently, is illegal in many places, including the whole of the EU; and probably ripe for civil damages elsewhere.

Of course there's mitigating circumstances in this case, in that Cobalt had been publicly commissioning this kind of stuff. 😼

Well it's not like he released it himself. Someone in his house had physical access to his phone and took pics of the conversation. I'm not so sure he'd be in hot water over that since the only thing he could've done was password protect his phone.

1 hour ago, GreenReaper said:

Of course there's mitigating circumstances in this case, in that Cobalt had been publicly commissioning this kind of stuff. 😼

Isn't it kind of funny how there isn't nearly as much outrage towards Cobalt? Did they let her off of the hook because she's a girl (at least that's what I've heard)?

[Vae]

It may not be illegal for either of them to say those things, but it's absolutely justifiable to shame them for it.

[Zaraphayx]

Forums are dying because every time I want to read a thread full of people dunking on some gross pervert I have to wade through terrible posts full of self-indulgent semantics.

"Uuugh well actually drawing naked kids shaped like dogs isn't technically child porn UUUUUUUUUGH *spontaneous projectile ejaculates all over my keyboard, uncontrollably aroused by my own mental prowess*"
 

[Socketosis]

3 hours ago, Zaraphayx said:

Forums are dying because every time I want to read a thread full of people dunking on some gross pervert I have to wade through terrible posts full of self-indulgent semantics.

"Uuugh well actually drawing naked kids shaped like dogs isn't technically child porn UUUUUUUUUGH *spontaneous projectile ejaculates all over my keyboard, uncontrollably aroused by my own mental prowess*"
 

There's always Twitter for that. :V

[GreenReaper]

22 hours ago, Socketosis said:

Well it's not like he released it himself. Someone in his house had physical access to his phone and took pics of the conversation. I'm not so sure he'd be in hot water over that since the only thing he could've done was password protect his phone.

I would rephrase that as "that is the minimum he should have done". 😼

9 hours ago, Zaraphayx said:

Forums are dying because every time I want to read a thread full of people dunking on some gross pervert I have to wade through terrible posts full of self-indulgent semantics.

Forums bring together people with different perspectives. Not everyone will think that dunking is appropriate, and even those that do may think it is appropriate for a different reason.

If your response to them doing that is "ugh, I just wanted to hate on this guy, stop talking about the issues", then you aren't going to have much of a forum.

[TrishaCat]

10 hours ago, Zaraphayx said:

Forums are dying because every time I want to read a thread full of people dunking on some gross pervert I have to wade through terrible posts full of self-indulgent semantics.

Forums are the only good websites for discussion because threads last forever and display everyone's posts as available to quote and see for all eternity thus allowing for constant continued discussion on lasting topics (unlike image boards and social media sites), aren't as hidden with time(unlike twitter and other social media) , and are open for random newcomers to interact rather than only being for the same small group of friends(unlike group chats like Discord and Telegram).

Also semantics are important because it's important to understand what you're criticizing someone for, and if there is a disagreement on the base level of what they're even being criticized for, then that will create differing views on the drama at hand. It sounds like you just wanted to read a circlejerk where everyone tells each other they're right.

[Tsuujou]

1 hour ago, GreenReaper said:

Forums bring together people with different perspectives. Not everyone will think that dunking is appropriate, and even those that do may think it is appropriate for a different reason.

If your response to them doing that is "ugh, I just wanted to hate on this guy, stop talking about the issues", then you aren't going to have much of a forum.

I...don't think he was being serious about forums actually dying for this reason. 

[Zaraphayx]

11 hours ago, GreenReaper said:

Forums bring together people with different perspectives. Not everyone will think that dunking is appropriate, and even those that do may think it is appropriate for a different reason.

If your response to them doing that is "ugh, I just wanted to hate on this guy, stop talking about the issues", then you aren't going to have much of a forum.

I don't need a guy who runs a website for dog porn and pedophiles telling me what's appropriate, lmao

[Zaraphayx]

10 hours ago, Battlechili said:

Forums are the only good websites for discussion because threads last forever and display everyone's posts as available to quote and see for all eternity thus allowing for constant continued discussion on lasting topics (unlike image boards and social media sites), aren't as hidden with time(unlike twitter and other social media) , and are open for random newcomers to interact rather than only being for the same small group of friends(unlike group chats like Discord and Telegram).

Also semantics are important because it's important to understand what you're criticizing someone for, and if there is a disagreement on the base level of what they're even being criticized for, then that will create differing views on the drama at hand. It sounds like you just wanted to read a circlejerk where everyone tells each other they're right.

There is no such thing as a "good website for discussion" I have never learned anything from a bunch of strangers howling redundant viewpoints into the void; every valuable exchange of viewpoints I have ever had has been through one on one conversation in private.

You've got me though I love a good circlejerk; which is why I'm constantly being as disagreeable as possible and instigating conflict with basement dwellers who think the entire world is a scholarly debate.

[Victor-933]

2 hours ago, Zaraphayx said:

There is no such thing as a "good website for discussion" I have never learned anything from a bunch of strangers howling redundant viewpoints into the void; every valuable exchange of viewpoints I have ever had has been through one on one conversation in private.

People always self-segregate into similar communities regardless of medium or setting.

[Tsuujou]

11 hours ago, Zaraphayx said:

I have never learned anything from a bunch of strangers

When you want something with a perspective in SAI, select the layer, use free deform, set the perspective slider to 100.
To shield jump as Brigitte, hold your shield, jump and shield bash at the peak of your jump into an angled object for height otherwise unobtainable.
If a plastic shell has yellowed from UV rays, try smearing a salon cream with 40% hydrogen peroxide on the surface and placing it in the sun for several hours (with plastic wrap over the object to prevent evaporation of the cream).  

Congrats, you've learned not one, but THREE things from a stranger. 

[Victor-933]

9 minutes ago, Tsuujou said:

When you want something with a perspective in SAI, select the layer, use free deform, set the perspective slider to 100.
To shield jump as Brigitte, hold your shield, jump and shield bash at the peak of your jump into an angled object for height otherwise unobtainable.
If a plastic shell has yellowed from UV rays, try smearing a salon cream with 40% hydrogen peroxide on the surface and placing it in the sun for several hours (with plastic wrap over the object to prevent evaporation of the cream).  

Congrats, you've learned not one, but THREE things from a stranger. 

to add to this:

* ALWAYS disconnect the car battery if you're doing anything under the hood that involves tools, and be sure remove all jewelry. There's enough current in that battery that, if you short it with a wrench, it can fucking weld itself to the terminals and explode. Just imagine what'll happen if your ring gets welded to that wrench while you're wearing it.

* Whenever you disconnect a car battery, check the manual to see which terminal needs to be removed first. On most cars, you remove the negative terminal, but some are special snowflakes and make you remove the positive terminal. This is because the negative cable is grounded to the vehicle chassis

* Two amps is generally considered lethal to an adult male. Car batteries generally output a few hundred to over a thousand amperes.

* The chemical reaction of a charging car battery produces hydrogen gas (which the Hindenburg was filled with). If you've had a charger on your battery, let it air out for a while after turning it off before trying to disconnect anything.

* Do not fucking play with car batteries unless you know what you're doing.

[Vae]

I have learned that regardless of what gross-ass pedophiles do or say,
there will always be someone who hasn't even had a presence or cared to post in for-fucking-ever,
to jump out to defend them.

God forbid their childlust masters get talked shit on, on some corner of the internet.
Having personal standards isn't inclusive or ~welcoming~ enough. Because that's absolutely what the fandom needs amongst all the dog fuckers and child predators.

[TrishaCat]

On 3/18/2018 at 9:28 AM, Vae said:

How is indulging in porn of children, fictional or not, not equivalent with pedophilia? Like how would any normal-thinking human look at something like that, and not have it raise a million and a half red flags?

It takes a pretty extreme lack of social awareness and basic understanding of how people work to go "That guy who said that prepubescence was the lower end of the sexual attraction scale. That's not indicative of pedophilia at all. Nope."

Because I don't believe people like these things for the same reasons. 

Actual human children, and such depicted in cartoon porn (and even more so in the case of furry art, as the character depicted aren't even supposed to be representative of humans), often don't look similar to each other. Consider the idea of someone looking at two adult porn actresses engaged in similar situations. Very often one might find one attractive while the other not despite being similar. If two actual real people can be similar and one be attracted to one but not the other, then wouldn't the gap between real human beings and cartoon porn be even greater to such a degree that they can't be considered the same conceptually? Cartoon characters don't look like real people in most cases, be it due to exaggerated physical traits or inhuman traits that simply don't exist in real life (such as discolored natural hair, or being a furry, or having larger than normal eyes, etc). Sometimes characters in such art may not even act their age or have personality traits not akin to that of real life humans in the same context. And so on. There's such a huge gap between cartoons and real life that I find it hard to compare the two, and hard to believe that people like these things for the same reasons. So the idea of conflating cartoon content to that of actual child porn and/or pedophilia seems ludicrous to me.

I can understand finding it concerning and weird, but I can't agree with considering it pedophilia. I also fear that to do such would be to belittle and trivialize content that hurts actual children.

13 hours ago, Zaraphayx said:

There is no such thing as a "good website for discussion" I have never learned anything from a bunch of strangers howling redundant viewpoints into the void; every valuable exchange of viewpoints I have ever had has been through one on one conversation in private.

I can't agree at all. I've learned so much and changed a lot over the course of my life on the internet due to things other people have said. Even within this very thread I learned something I consider valuable; I had no idea that Greenreaper was an admin of Inkbunny, so I feel like I gained something from that discussion alone. Then there's so many other things, both trivial and not. For example, I learned from /v/ that Vaan in Final Fantasy XII acts as Ashe's foil in the story. I've learned from Reddit that slavery was a major part of the Civil War (I realize this might sound silly, but what I was taught in school led me to believe there were more pressing issues at hand in that war). I used to be extremely goody goody and socially inept when it came to conversations with people, but conversations on other forums from concerned forum posters helped teach me to have some degree of social awareness with regards to how I communicate with others (and got me to lighten up a little). On Twitter I learned about some new internet bill that could potentially harm online dating sites. I learn about different people themselves sometimes. Heck, before this controversy even occurred, I had no idea who Zaush was other than that he was some famous furry porn artist. These are all varying degrees of trivial and important. My opinion and views on things change depending upon the things people say around me, and even when they don't, I think about what other people are saying and consider them, and that's important to me. And out of all these things, I found that actual forums were the most useful for discussion. While oftentimes in an argument people might not always agree (and usually won't change each other's minds), just getting each other to think about their views on things and consider the possibility of being wrong or consider other ideas, even if one doesn't necessarily change their mind or view on something, can help one learn and grow as a person. I like being challenged. Its important to me that people tell me I'm wrong sometimes, even in this very thread. 

But even beyond that, good discussion doesn't necessarily involve arguing or learning; just simply talking with friends and people can be great discussion in its own right. I like hearing what my friends have to say about things. Talking about recent news events, funny things on the internet, video games, anime, cartoons, etc...I love it. Its fun hearing what people have to say about things and what their opinions on, whether I agree with them or not. Just considering what others have to say helps people grow as a person, and there's no more useful towards for that than forums imo.

You mention PMs, but for some reason in PMs I always feel more obligated to agree with people and censor my words. PMs are extremely personal and I think the wrong set of words can come off as more threatening, so I don't feel as if its as easy to have a proper conversation privately, plus that limits who can be involved in a discussion. I love forums; hearing what a wide array of different people have to say is fun.

13 hours ago, Zaraphayx said:

You've got me though I love a good circlejerk; which is why I'm constantly being as disagreeable as possible and instigating conflict with basement dwellers who think the entire world is a scholarly debate.

You say this, but you came into this thread basically complaining that people (and most likely me considering the content) weren't just making fun of Zaush. You wanted this entire thread to be devoted to making fun of Zaush, which isn't being disagreeable; its wishing for everyone to all be doing the same thing and telling each other they're right.

[Vae]

Jesus christ. I took out the quotes, and that's still way too many words.


Also if you are attracted to children, doesn't matter if it's cartoon children or real children, you are a pedophile by definition.
Not a child molester.
A pedophile.

If you are getting off to a child's figure and a child's attributes, which are associated with children, then you are a pedophile.
I don't care how much fur is slapped onto it. It's a child. It could be an adult. You could age it up. You're choosing not to. You're choosing to sexualize a body type and attributes that are strictly associated with children.
Ergo pedophile.

I'm not explaining this shit again.
Doesn't matter if it's drawings. Doesn't matter if it's real. Pedophilia, by definition, is a sexual attraction to children.

[Victor-933]

8 minutes ago, Vae said:

Jesus christ. I took out the quotes, and that's still way too many words.

[TrishaCat]

Term is too general; I don't believe the people who like this content are attracted to real children, therefore said term doesn't accurately describe their sexual interests.

Not even talking about child molestors. Talking about just the attraction. If people are solely attracted to cartoon content and not the real thing, the term adds a meaning to their sexual interests that isn't accurate to what they're actually attracted to as the term is too general and encompassing. Though, as a correction as we're not talking about child molestors: I fear that to conflate such to pedophilia would be to belittle and trivialize ideas that are potentially threats to actual human children.

EDIT: Also I do agree, I could probably stand to work on conciseness.

[Tsuujou]

3 hours ago, Battlechili said:

Term is too general; I don't believe the people who like this content are attracted to real children, therefore said term doesn't accurately describe their sexual interests.

I've wanted to ask this somewhere for a long time, but I guess now is a better time than any.

Honest question:

If being a pedophile, or if having the label of a pedophile as it is currently defined, a sexual attraction to prepubescent children, did not come with the stigma of being a heinous taboo...would the term still be too general? Because any other paraphilia and sexual alignment is fairly clear to everyone and is never disputed despite being similarly generally worded... 

Vorarephilia - wanting to be eaten whole
Trichophilia - sexual attraction to hair
Podophilia - sexual attraction to feet 
But, pedophilia seems to always be the one people say is too vague when it seems to me very direct; as direct as the other three listed. And we are talking about pedophilia and not hebephilia or ephebophilia.

Do you say a trichophile is not attracted to real feet if the majority of the feet centric porn they consume is anime?

 

 

[TrishaCat]

4 hours ago, Tsuujou said:

I've wanted to ask this somewhere for a long time, but I guess now is a better time than any.

Honest question:

If being a pedophile, or if having the label of a pedophile as it is currently defined, a sexual attraction to prepubescent children, did not come with the stigma of being a heinous taboo...would the term still be too general? Because any other paraphilia and sexual alignment is fairly clear to everyone and is never disputed despite being similarly generally worded... 

Vorarephilia - wanting to be eaten whole
Trichophilia - sexual attraction to hair
Podophilia - sexual attraction to feet 
But, pedophilia seems to always be the one people say is too vague when it seems to me very direct; as direct as the other three listed. And we are talking about pedophilia and not hebephilia or ephebophilia.

Do you say a trichophile is not attracted to real feet if the majority of the feet centric porn they consume is anime?

I realize this might come off as a cop-out, but I would argue it depends on the fetish at hand. 

Vore in particular I think is a useful example here: Generally speaking, vore almost always applies to fiction. People who like vore aren't interested in being eaten in real life, as that would result in one's death. People moreso just like art and stories involving it, that they only like it in the context of fiction. In this case, I think the term pretty much exclusively applies to fiction. Its not really a general term in the sense that it doesn't encompass more than that. There may be people who like vore in a more specific context however involving certain very specific situations, and I would actually say that in such cases it might not even be appropriate to say someone is into vore, but something significantly more specific. Like how some people might argue they aren't into furry but like [one specific character here]. And I wouldn't be surprised if more specific fetish terms might arise in cases that something more particular becomes popular as well.

Moving backwards, if something like vore is only applicable within the realm of fiction, then would it not be appropriate to then derive that other fetishes might also have a specificity with regards to fiction or reality?

I will admit however that I'm uneasy about referring to situations such as with Zaush as being pedophilia because of the heavy taboo stigma surrounding the paraphilia at hand. I don't like the idea of putting anything involving drawn art under the same vein of something far more serious, as I believe art is something extremely free that ought' to be protected. Though, I do think that if you only enjoy something within a certain kind of context, then using a broader more encompassing term might not be appropriate. So yes, I would say that if someone is only attracted to feet within the context of fiction (and in your case, anime) that it might not be appropriate to refer to said person as being into podophilia. Of course, I have to believe this; if my previous argument is to remain in any way sound, it would be inconsistent to say anything to the contrary.

Anyways, that's enough of this. I don't think I'm going to convince anyone if I haven't already; I've said my piece. I don't think Zaush did anything wrong here, although I do believe its completely within reason to find him suspect and find the whole situation icky.

[QT Melon]

Apparently someone escalated the matter to IMVU.

[Socketosis]

6 hours ago, QT Melon said:

Apparently someone escalated the matter to IMVU.

The same person that made a change.org petition to get him banned from FA lmao

[Troj]

I reckon it's fair to say that if someone's attracted to children, they're a pedophile. (But, we need to avoid confusing pedophilia with similar-looking kinks, like being attracted to objects associated with childhood, or being into the idea of being a child.)

I agree with Battlechili that there's a difference between fantasy and reality,  and that one doesn't necessarily cross into the other. Pedophiles are not necessarily child molesters. It's  important to avoid witch hunts just for "thoughtcrimes."

So, we do have to be cautious about jumping to premature conclusions about someone's kinks, what they mean, and how they're going to act on them.

But, I also think it's smart to err on the side of caution when someone has a fetish that tends to lend itself to harmful and/or non-consensual behavior. Claims to good intentions aside, I'd still be extremely reluctant to leave a suspected or known zoophile alone with an animal, or a suspected or known pedophile alone with a minor.

[Revates]

My goodness, gracious me, the posts in this thread are why we need a dislike button. Please get your ideas across succinctly. Sad reacts only. Also, Zaush is low quality and should like older people and not be a pedo, change my mind. You have a 250 word limit. Go. If you'd like a marking rubric I can email it to you, it's also in the course outline.

[Troj]

To be succinct, based on what I've heard about him over time, I wouldn't trust Zaush any further than I could throw him, personally. Your mileage is welcome to differ.

Intentions, ethics, and legalities aside, the exchange he had with that client was just plain creepy in my book.

[Zaraphayx]

All it took was a framing of the question as a homework assignment and immediately someone talks like a human being.

Fucking incredible.

Rev you're a saint.

[Vae]

I always assume adamant defense of just really gross shit, like very clear pedophile behavior, is in protecting one's own self-interest.
And once again, my curiosity and like five minutes of Google has proven me correct.




GG team.

I'm not entertaining the paragraph shit. I'm too tired.

[Victor-933]

23 minutes ago, Vae said:

I always assume adamant defense of just really gross shit, like very clear pedophile behavior, is in protecting one's own self-interest.
And once again, my curiosity and like five minutes of Google has proven me correct.




GG team.

I'm not entertaining the paragraph shit. I'm too tired.

[TrishaCat]

My beliefs and values are the result of an adamant desire to protect art, free speech, and creativity whilst holding onto a belief that reality and fiction are far jumps from each other. I stand by everything I've said here, as I truly believe that a fondness for something in fiction has no bearing on reality. Feel free to look up and read comic author Neil Gaiman's (Coraline, The Sandman, etc) online journal entry "Why defend freedom of icky speech" where he talks about things like "lolicon" and such and explains why such should be defended in a much better way than I could ever hope to convey. 

In this regard, my posts on an anime forum have no relevance with regards to my arguments.

I realize this might sound like I'm trying to shift away or shrug what might appear to be damning evidence of a bias; but I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to really comment, since my opinions remain relatively the same regardless of my posts about cartoon porn on MAL. In fact the one saying "its okay" was just a lazy retelling of what I've been saying here that's a result of the fact that the site has "Is loli immoral threads?" once every month or so and they usually go on for 5 or 6 pages before just being reinvigorated again on the next month (in fact there's one right now in the Anime Discussion section), so it gets tiring reposting the exact same arguments over and over again.

I just did so here because I had a brief moment of not feeling depressed and lazy and because seeing people yell at Zaush about cartoon porn upset me.  I just can't stand the idea of criminalizing thought crimes or acting like cartoons have the capability of being immoral or reflect some kind of dark inner moral compass on the creator of said art. The idea has always been insane to me. As I said before: "Do video games cause actual violence?" and all that jazz.