Rant: Old Men

[MissFleece]

Fucking disgusting old men who feel entitled to let young girls know they're "sexy". 

What the fuck is wrong with you?

I started getting catcalled when I was 12. I looked 12! There was NO reason for that. I got accosted by 40 year old men attempting to sleep with me when I was OBVIOUSLY a child! The more I talk about it, the more other women open up and say they've been dealing with the same thing.

What the FUCK is wrong with you?

I don't understand what goes through their heads, honestly.

Can't get women you're own age, so you flirt with preteens because they're too scared to say no? Because they're just trying to play at being adults, to make people think they're mature and you can easily manipulate them? 

Please, go creep somewhere else, maybe the middle of traffic? 

[Zaraphayx]

[MissFleece]

@Zaraphayx  sorry I saw something that made me a little angry...

A younger girl posted a selfie on facebook and the only comment was some 40 y/o dude who looks like that dude who eats weird shit on discovery channel saying "lookin sexy baby " 

And it kind of put me in a bad mood. 

 

[Charrio]

I never did get that, how it's OK for basically father aged men to hit on what are his children's age.
There has to be some subliminal reason there, way too many have a Daddy Daughter fetish

[MissFleece]

I never did get that, how it's OK for basically father aged men to hit on what are his children's age.
There has to be some subliminal reason there, way too many have a Daddy Daughter fetish

I've heard of older women hitting on teenage men too, but I guess they don't talk about it as much  

It needs to be shamed in society though, pedophilia isn't okay even if the target for abuse is in their teen years. People are just manipulative and gross. 

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

When I was like, 13, I cosplayed as Touko Fukawa one day when I was bored and walked to the convenience store in my cosplay. When I was walking by, 2 old, at least 50-somethin's in a truck called me a cutie and whistled at me.

[Zerig]

what is there to complain about

i wish 40 year old dads would call ME sexy

only if they're hot tho

Edited October 4, 2015 by Zerig

[Zaraphayx]

@Zaraphayx  sorry I saw something that made me a little angry...

A younger girl posted a selfie on facebook and the only comment was some 40 y/o dude who looks like that dude who eats weird shit on discovery channel saying "lookin sexy baby " 

And it kind of put me in a bad mood. 

 

Oh I wasn't making fun of you I was just alluding to the enjoyment I'm going to get out of the ensuing arguments in the thread.

I'm rather ambivalent on the topic I guess. I've seen plenty of overreactions to compliments or jokes and also some pretty obviously creepy moves so without being there personally I don't have a whole lot of interest in trying to gleam judgments from anecdotes.

I've heard of older women hitting on teenage men too, but I guess they don't talk about it as much  

It needs to be shamed in society though, pedophilia isn't okay even if the target for abuse is in their teen years. People are just manipulative and gross. 

Pretty much my whole life I've had my personal space "invaded" by women both older than me and my own age although most of it was after I was legally an adult.

I, and most men I'd wager, don't see it as offensive as women see it when it's done to them, though.

In the case of just "creepy" flirting I can't think of a time it made me feel uncomfortable as much as it was comical.

Last year I helped my sister and her boyfriend move back for college and while I was there we went out to this bar with a bunch of her friends. One of them was accompanied by her 40ish year old mom who had too much to drink and started aggressively flirting with me right in front of her very uncomfortable daughter.

She bought me a drink though so that was nice of her.

[Hewge]

I want hot gay dads to call me sexy! !

[Guest]

Zara, it makes sense as to why dudes don't complain when women are aggressive and creepy. Biologically, the average man has much more physical strength than the average woman. So when a woman aggressively flirts at the guy, providing she is anything other than attractive to the guy assuming he's straight, he will feel comfortable because he can easily overpower her. 

Think of living in a world where the average guy can overpower you at any moment. Shit's terrifying if you think about it. My boyfriend, for instance, is a paramedic and needs to haul big-ass people every day during work. When we play fight, I put in my best to try to topple him over, or turn him around, or drag him around and shits tough. However, when he does it to me, and I'm a big girl, he can do so with ease. Literally no sweat. He'll hold me down with a fraction of what it takes to do it. I trust him implicitly and with my life, but if you really think about it- he has the power to do stuff to me I don't want and there's nothing i can do about it. 

That's why average women are afraid of the average man, but the average man isn't afraid of the average woman. Yes, men are raped, and yes, men are victimized by women. I'm not saying they're not. However, the most usual cases of women assaulting men are older women and much younger boys, inebriated men, men drugged then forcibly tied up, viagra, blackmail.. It isn't common for a woman to forcibly and physically overpower a man and do whatever she wants to him. 

I'd hazard to say most women on the forums here have experienced a situation where they got unwanted male attention. Sure, a compliment is a compliment, but imagine it came from someone who could be your father (infantilization/objectification), or from someone who looked like they'd harm you if you showed or did anything other than a polite smile. Heck, that's happened to me before in broad daylight. Homeless guy yelled to me and my friend if he could 'get in on some of that pussy action', and whne I rolled my eyes he started going towards us saying shit like 'don't fucking ignore me, bitches'. It wasn't till we ducked into a record store we felt good enough to leave, ~30 minutes later. Its everywhere and anywhere there's a risk of being taken advantage of by a dude, be it your personal space, your looks, etc.. in some places its super not safe to be a woman. 

[MissFleece]

Zara, it makes sense as to why dudes don't complain when women are aggressive and creepy. Biologically, the average man has much more physical strength than the average woman. So when a woman aggressively flirts at the guy, providing she is anything other than attractive to the guy assuming he's straight, he will feel comfortable because he can easily overpower her. 

Think of living in a world where the average guy can overpower you at any moment. Shit's terrifying if you think about it. My boyfriend, for instance, is a paramedic and needs to haul big-ass people every day during work. When we play fight, I put in my best to try to topple him over, or turn him around, or drag him around and shits tough. However, when he does it to me, and I'm a big girl, he can do so with ease. Literally no sweat. He'll hold me down with a fraction of what it takes to do it. I trust him implicitly and with my life, but if you really think about it- he has the power to do stuff to me I don't want and there's nothing i can do about it. 

That's why average women are afraid of the average man, but the average man isn't afraid of the average woman. Yes, men are raped, and yes, men are victimized by women. I'm not saying they're not. However, the most usual cases of women assaulting men are older women and much younger boys, inebriated men, men drugged then forcibly tied up, viagra, blackmail.. It isn't common for a woman to forcibly and physically overpower a man and do whatever she wants to him. 

I'd hazard to say most women on the forums here have experienced a situation where they got unwanted male attention. Sure, a compliment is a compliment, but imagine it came from someone who could be your father (infantilization/objectification), or from someone who looked like they'd harm you if you showed or did anything other than a polite smile. Heck, that's happened to me before in broad daylight. Homeless guy yelled to me and my friend if he could 'get in on some of that pussy action', and whne I rolled my eyes he started going towards us saying shit like 'don't fucking ignore me, bitches'. It wasn't till we ducked into a record store we felt good enough to leave, ~30 minutes later. Its everywhere and anywhere there's a risk of being taken advantage of by a dude, be it your personal space, your looks, etc.. in some places its super not safe to be a woman. 

Exactly this. 

Of course, I might be biased, older men have hurt me in ways that I am still raw about. 

The thing is, when you're younger, you think of older men as protective, you're young enough to be their daughter, right? But then they grope you, follow you, make you feel uncomfortable and don't care about your boundaries. It teaches you at a young age that they see you as sex, and that's it. 

This happens to almost every girl I know, and even if only half those stories are true, it's still too many. 

I remember being 13 and walking down the road with my friends. A group of men in a pick up truck whistled and stopped, they called for us to get in the car. What would have happened if we did, instead of running back home? 

I'm not saying to be afraid of men. But don't judge the people who are. 

[Kaizy]

There's a lot of stuff in society that kind of glorifies it when older women do this to younger men. Hell, that awful movie That's My Boy glorifies the hell out of this sort of thing, and all I could think while watching it is "if the genders were the other way around, this would be a serious drama movie and probably be really creepy, but since it's a "hot teacher" and young student, this is a-ok for a comedy apparently". I don't think it's right either way. I don't think older men should be complimenting younger girls in that way, and I don't think older women should be complimenting younger guys in that way. Go find someone around your own age.

[MissFleece]

There's a lot of stuff in society that kind of glorifies it when older women do this to younger men. Hell, that awful movie That's My Boy glorifies the hell out of this sort of thing, and all I could think while watching it is "if the genders were the other way around, this would be a serious drama movie and probably be really creepy, but since it's a "hot teacher" and young student, this is a-ok for a comedy apparently". I don't think it's right either way. I don't think older men should be complimenting younger girls in that way, and I don't think older women should be complimenting younger guys in that way. Go find someone around your own age.

I'd think it might be worse for men too, since they're told to laugh it off. Women are at least validated when they feel creeped out. Men have no support system for things like this and they need it.  

[Kaizy]

I'd think it might be worse for men too, since they're told to laugh it off. Women are at least validated when they feel creeped out. Men have no support system for things like this and they need it.  

This is a common issue, and it's really horrible to hear about.

[Ayattar]

Biologically, the average man has much more physical strength than the average woman.

It's 30% by the default. It's not even in the amount of muscles we have, but also in their innate strenght, ours being way stronger. Same as with muscles of white people vs muscles of the black people (more slow-contracting fibers vs more fast-contracting fibers, making whites stronger and blacks more responsive, resistant and agile)

And yes, we aren't afraid of women. But let me tell you, in that aspect, at the very moment, there aren't many differences between men and women. We get those things too. I even ended one of my friendships because of that. After spending few hours with two of my girl-friends, listening to their comments about encountered men. Honestly, I never made comments on passing girls that would be even half as sexist as theirs on the passing men.

I've heard of older women hitting on teenage men too, but I guess they don't talk about it as much  

For me, even if an ugly as hell momma compliments me, it's still a compliment. And those are always welcome. So the one and only difference between me and you is, that I don't give a damn... And I don't need to be afraid if I tell someone to bug off.

 I don't think it's right either way. I don't think older men should be complimenting younger girls in that way, and I don't think older women should be complimenting younger guys in that way. Go find someone around your own age.

And I feel that people are free to do what they want. "Go find someone around your own age" being pointed against all the relationships with big difference in age. Which sometimes happen and which sometimes are happy.

[Kaizy]

And I feel that people are free to do what they want. "Go find someone around your own age" being pointed against all the relationships with big difference in age. Which sometimes happen and which sometimes are happy.

But you can't make the assumption that just because it's fine for some, everyone should just accept it. That's a terrible mindset. There's a general consensus that a lot (if not a majority) of women don't like getting random creepy comments from strangers. Being told to "just take the compliment" just continues to push this idea that said creepy comments are perfectly fine and acceptable and if you don't like them you're just overreacting. People are free to do what they want, but that doesn't mean they should be encouraged to continue shitty behaviors.

[Ayattar]

Then learn how to be assertive. Instead of taking the compliment, tell them to scram. Simple as that.

[Kaizy]

Then learn how to be assertive. Instead of taking the compliment, tell them to scram. Simple as that.

You aren't too aware of how a lot of these men who make the creepy comments react to being told to "fuck off", are you? A lot of them aren't the nicest guys around and they tend to act rather aggressively to being told that, and there's quite a few stories of women getting in confrontations with these people after telling them off. It makes more sense to perpetuate the mindset that creepy comments are creepy and you shouldn't do that, instead of blaming the people that don't want to be told how nice their ass looks by a complete stranger.

[Ayattar]

Well, actually it's good. After all every case of a man agressively confronting a woman serves your agenda. There are paragraphs on that and, in my opinion, there are few more pleasing things than seeing pleb rotting in the jail, or enjoying their suspended sentences.

And maybe it's just a cultural difference, only strenghtened by my personal kamikaze attitude. Because personally, I'm not afraid of putting myself in the harm, over the price of maintaining social order and my personal dignity. I ended in a hospital once, because of that and I don't mind going there again, if a similar situation ever happens.

But if you're afraid of that, then you should invest in, for example, pepper spray and be done.

And your ranting won't help a bit in the case of mentioned creeps. Nothing will, not changes in the law, nor changes in the culture.

[Guest]

Then learn how to be assertive. Instead of taking the compliment, tell them to scram. Simple as that.

I know you usually troll, but last time I told a man to fuck off, he threatened to kill me. So. No, we don't exactly have that luxury  

[Kaizy]

Well, actually it's good. After all every case of a man agressively confronting a woman serves your agenda. There are paragraphs on that and, in my opinion, there are few more pleasing things than seeing pleb rotting in the jail, or enjoying their suspended sentences.

And maybe it's just a cultural difference, only strenghtened by my personal kamikaze attitude. Because personally, I'm not afraid of putting myself in the harm, over the price of maintaining social order and my personal dignity. I ended in a hospital once, because of that and I don't mind going there again, if a similar situation ever happens.

But if you're afraid of that, then you should invest in, for example, pepper spray and be done.

And your ranting won't help a bit in the case of mentioned creeps. Nothing will, not changes in the law, nor changes in the culture.

That's a pretty poor attitude to have on the matter. You shouldn't have to risk your physical well-being to ensure some idiot gets jailed for being an idiot. Like that's just common sense. Do you not think it's just a little bit of an issue if an accepted solution to something like this is "just get attacked" or "carry pepper spray in case it gets violent", instead of preventing the issue altogether?

Also, things can change, it's just a matter of whether or not shit gets talked about enough. It's basically verbal harassment, which usually only gets the law involved if it escalates to a specific degree, which is kind of the issue. But again, it's more about trying to circulate the idea that you should be giving people creepy comments on their body without given consent to do so, especially if you don't know them. Telling a stranger "hey I like your shirt" or "your hair looks nice today" is a fine compliment, but "damn your ass looks good" is not. This is, again, common sense. Just respect people's boundaries and don't tell strangers you find parts of them sexy and fuckable, it's not that difficult.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Kaizy

[MissFleece]

Well, actually it's good. After all every case of a man agressively confronting a woman serves your agenda. There are paragraphs on that and, in my opinion, there are few more pleasing things than seeing pleb rotting in the jail, or enjoying their suspended sentences.

And maybe it's just a cultural difference, only strenghtened by my personal kamikaze attitude. Because personally, I'm not afraid of putting myself in the harm, over the price of maintaining social order and my personal dignity. I ended in a hospital once, because of that and I don't mind going there again, if a similar situation ever happens.

But if you're afraid of that, then you should invest in, for example, pepper spray and be done.

And your ranting won't help a bit in the case of mentioned creeps. Nothing will, not changes in the law, nor changes in the culture.

I'd rather not die, even to "further an agenda", thanks. I think you underestimate the threat at hand. Just because you're a big tough person who won't let anything taint your honor doesn't mean the rest of us are.

Pepper spray does little against a gun, or even a knife if they catch you off guard or are enraged by you spraying them. As it is, its illegal to carry in many places since it IS a weapon. 

[Ayattar]

I know you usually troll, but last time I told a man to fuck off, he threatened to kill me. So. No, we don't exactly have that luxury  

Then very nice men you got over there. Seriously, the more I know, the worse US seems. First Feste is telling me that atheists are forbidden by the law from running for the elections in 7 states, then I'm being lectured on your non-existant employee protection and ekhm "work" law, now you're telling me that it's nothing unusual to be threatened by the men to whose you say "no".

As it is, its illegal to carry in many places since it IS a weapon. 

You... What?

And honestly, killed?
 

Holy hell if my leg ever stands on the statean soil.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Ayattar

[Gamedog]

Men are far more likely to be assaulted, beat up, or murdered than women for things like telling someone to "fuck off", and yet here I go, doing it all the time

I'm always yelling at people, I shoot people the finger, I tell them to fuck off

Still alive

 

edit

oh yeah and its illegal to carry a gun, knife, or spray where i live

im 5'9 and 120lbs, skin and bones, anemic, pale ghost

Edited October 4, 2015 by Gamedog

[MissFleece]

 

You... What?

And honestly, killed?
 

Holy hell if my leg ever stands on the statean soil.

Here are some examples of women being killed for refusing strangers. They were the first I could find.

[Ayattar]

You, my dear Clayton, live in Canada. A country, which is, by our standards, civilized. At least culturally a lot closer to the UK and Europe than it is to the US.

Here are some examples of women being killed for refusing strangers. They were the first I could find.

Okay, I begin to understand why the homicide ratio where you live is four times higher than here. I can't find a single one. Huge cultural difference. Forget about my posts then.

[Guest]

Then very nice men you got over there. Seriously, the more I know, the worse US seems. First Feste is telling me that atheists are forbidden by the law from running for the elections in 7 states, then I'm being lectured on your non-existant employee protection and ekhm "work" law, now you're telling me that it's nothing unusual to be threatened by the men to whose you say "no".

You... What?

And honestly, killed?
Holy hell if my leg ever stands on the statean soil.

Never come to the states. Guns all around, and shitty uneducated people voting in the most powerful humans of the world. Women get treated like cattle here, so please understand american culture towards women is heavily misogynistic and quite gross all around. Your freedom to tell people to screw off where you're at may purely be geographical. 

Men are far more likely to be assaulted, beat up, or murdered than women for things like telling someone to "fuck off", and yet here I go, doing it all the time

I'm always yelling at people, I shoot people the finger, I tell them to fuck off

Still alive

edit

oh yeah and its illegal to carry a gun, knife, or spray where i live

im 5'9 and 120lbs, skin and bones, anemic, pale ghost

Ahh yessss, because it NEVER happens to you, it doesn't happen anywhere in the world. Thanks! You just solved violence against women! And yes, clay, because men are more likely to commit suicide because our backwards culture prevents them the luxury of having feelings, and because men ALSO face issues of violence, we should totally ignore that most rapes are done to women, and there is ever more violence increasing. FAct is, coming in to a discussion where plenty of women here- namely Kaizy, missusfleece, and I, are literally here and saying we have been harassed by men, that you need to fucking pipe up that men get assaulted too.

YES. WE KNOW THAT. But there's no need to compare violence between the sexes.[1]  Our reality is much more violent, especially when it comes to sexual assault.[2]

You also need to shut the hell up about it in conversations where its us- womenfolk that can get murdered for saying no to a guy[3]- and maybe you'll learn something that women suffer in much different ways that men REFUSE to let us talk about. Know why? Coz you'll scream, 'well, men get assaulted too!' what are we supposed to do with that information? Are we supposed to immediately shut up and say 'oh well, I mean, since men get assaulted too, we shouldn't talk about how we get assaulted. Its not fucking about you right now. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Lemon

[Kaizy]

Men are far more likely to be assaulted, beat up, or murdered than women for things like telling someone to "fuck off", and yet here I go, doing it all the time

I'm always yelling at people, I shoot people the finger, I tell them to fuck off

Still alive

 

edit

oh yeah and its illegal to carry a gun, knife, or spray where i live

im 5'9 and 120lbs, skin and bones, anemic, pale ghost

I thought you lived in another country?

IIRC, in most places in the US, carrying concealed weapons is against the law, and they count pepperspray as a concealable weapon.

Also, just because you can openly tell people to fuck off  and haven't gotten assaulted for it doesn't mean everyone else can and has. There's plenty of cases where people tell off strangers and get assaulted for it, it's very common.

[Gamedog]

Ahh yessss, because it NEVER happens to you, it doesn't happen anywhere in the world. Thanks! You just solved violence against women!

You also need to shut the hell up about it in conversations where its us- womenfolk that can get murdered for saying no to a guy[3]- and maybe you'll learn something that women suffer in much different ways that men REFUSE to let us talk about. Know why? Coz you'll scream, 'well, men get assaulted too!' what are we supposed to do with that information? Are we supposed to immediately shut up and say 'oh well, I mean, since men get assaulted too, we shouldn't talk about how we get assaulted. Its not fucking about you right now. 

Ecuse me, did I say this? Pretty sure my point was that you're far more likely to be assaulted if you're a man than if you're a woman, when you and others are acting as if women are at such a risk of saying "fuck off" to people. I'm more at risk, statistically, than you are of getting my ass kicked and yet it hasn't occurred once.

 I've been harassed and followed by guys. I remember some nights feeling that I was going to get jumped -- having a car drive slowly beside me while I was walking down the road at night. I think you're living in unneeded fear

EDIT: oh yeah my fave. a guy said he was going to "kick the living shit out of me" because i didnt say hi back to him, cause i didnt see him when he was riding his bike down an unlit road. lmao

Your friend created a topic on a public forum calling out men, and you're surprised we're arguing back? haha. This is considered "refusing to let us talk about it"? please.

 

Coming from someone -- a gay male -- who is statistically MORE LIKELY TO GET MURDERED WHILE WALKING AROUND.. id say you guys need to loosen your diapers and stop living in fear.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Gamedog

[MissFleece]

Ecuse me, did I say this? Pretty sure my point was that you're far more likely to be assaulted if you're a man than if you're a woman, when you and others are acting as if women are at such a risk of saying "fuck off" to people. I'm more at risk, statistically, than you are of getting my ass kicked and yet it hasn't occurred once.

 I've been harassed and followed by guys. I remember some nights feeling that I was going to get jumped -- having a car drive slowly beside me while I was walking down the road at night. I think you're living in unneeded fear

EDIT: oh yeah my fave. a guy said he was going to "kick the living shit out of me" because i didnt say hi back to him, cause i didnt see him when he was riding his bike down an unlit road. lmao

Your friend created a topic on a public forum calling out men, and you're surprised we're arguing back? haha. This is considered "refusing to let us talk about it"? please.

 

Coming from someone -- a gay male -- who is statistically MORE LIKELY TO GET MURDERED WHILE WALKING AROUND.. id say you guys need to loosen your diapers and stop living in fear.

I made aa post calling out pedophiles and creeps, I'm sorry you felt I needed to put a disclaimer that says "NOT ALL MEN!!1!"

Honestly, we're talking about street harassment and how it affects EVERYONE negatively, and since we are female, we used examples of us, as females, being harassed by men.

You kind of proved my point about men not having the proper support systems set up for this, since your immediate reaction was to jump on defense instead of trying to talk about the problem.

[Gamedog]

I thought you lived in another country?

IIRC, in most places in the US, carrying concealed weapons is against the law, and they count pepperspray as a concealable weapon.

Also, just because you can openly tell people to fuck off  and haven't gotten assaulted for it doesn't mean everyone else can and has. There's plenty of cases where people tell off strangers and get assaulted for it, it's very common.

I don't understand what you mean by this. There's almost 200 countries on earth

i dont live in america.

 

I'm well aware of how people get their ass kicked for that. i'm just saying that saying "no thanks" to a ride isn't likely to get your ass beat,

[Guest]

I'm not surprised you're arguing back. I'm surprised I expected anyone to get what I'm saying through their thick skulls. You missed the entire point of my post. I'll water it down, watch:

OP posts a thread in which a man is being gross, most likely for the point of getting support

Other women and women type folks commiserate, saying yes, men have been gross to us as well

You say, well, 'men get assaulted too! And you should grow up and deal with it!', in a thread where a bunch of women- all separated probably thousands of miles so it can't be a single place geographically where this is happening- and you think you were gonna get a positive reaction?

The point of this thread was 'woman gets creeped on by a guy'

Its literally derailing it by saying that men get assaulted too. Again, what are we supposed to do with that information in this current moment in time? 

Imagine, you approached a circle of women talking about their experiences dealing with instances of disgusting men- and you loudly proclaimed men get assaulted too. Imagine the palpable silence that follows. Imagine a bunch of girls faces looking at you in silence- you interrupted their conversation to grossley inject yourself- and I wonder if your internet bravado would falter? That isn't how human conversations work. 

You don't completely derail a conversation to point out that something else happens to someone else. It lacks basic human interaction skills. 

More examples: "Man, all those syrian kids dyin right now. Awful." "WELL, There's kids who die in america, too!"

How the hell do you think that conversation follows? Can you literally not stand it- does it make you fume with rage that a second goes by that women don't think about the men who get assaulted too?

I'm not telling you to fuck off with your experiences. Those are real, and those are validated. Your feelings are valid. But to come in to a thread to bring attention to you and your plight in a conversation where women- in a situation that you will never really be able to uniquely experience- are talking about, to scream that you've been a victim too and suggest that because you're fine, we should shut up about it, is really crappy of you. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Lemon

[Kaizy]

I don't understand what you mean by this. There's almost 200 countries on earth

i dont live in america.

 

I'm well aware of how people get their ass kicked for that. i'm just saying that saying "no thanks" to a ride isn't likely to get your ass beat,

You'd be surprised man. A lot of the time, people making these comments aren't exactly "nice" and tend to get aggressive when being told "no thanks". That's why a lot of people ignore people harassing them on the street, they don't want to risk getting one of those confrontational people and possibly ending up in the hospital over it. Not even coming from a gendered standpoint, usually telling off any strangers in the street isn't wise at all because you have no way of knowing how they'll react.

[Gamedog]

I'm not surprised you're arguing back. I'm surprised I expected anyone to get what I'm saying through their thick skulls. You missed the entire point of my post. I'll water it down, watch:

OP posts a thread in which a man is being gross, most likely for the point of getting support

Other women and women type folks commiserate, saying yes, men have been gross to us as well

You say, well, 'men get assaulted too! And you should grow up and deal with it!', in a thread where a bunch of women- all separated probably thousands of miles so it can't be a single place geographically where this is happening- and you think you were gonna get a positive reaction?

The point of this thread was 'woman gets creeped on by a guy'

Its literally derailing it by saying that men get assaulted to. Again, what are we supposed to do with that information in this current moment in time? 

Imagine, you approached a circle of women talking about their experiences dealing with instances of disgusting men- and you loudly proclaimed men get assaulted too. Imagine the palpable silence that follows. Imagine a bunch of girls faces looking at you in silence- you interrupted their conversation to grossley inject yourself- and I wonder if your internet bravado would falter? That isn't how human conversations work. 

You don't completely derail a conversation to point out that something else happens to someone else. It lacks basic human interaction skills.

 

If nobody is understanding or getting the point of what you're saying, maybe it's because it makes no fucking sense. ]:

I really don't care for your dumb make-believe scenarios where I barge into a group of crying women and ruin theri day, please don't degenerate into this sort of a conversation. I've not derailed any conversation here, I simply replied to a post you made about carrying protection to protect yourself from men, because apparently we go around and hit on chicks and will kill them if they say no.

Your post is why I made a post in this thread, YOUR post. Lol.

I made aa post calling out pedophiles and creeps, I'm sorry you felt I needed to put a disclaimer that says "NOT ALL MEN!!1!"

Honestly, we're talking about street harassment and how it affects EVERYONE negatively, and since we are female, we used examples of us, as females, being harassed by men.

It isn't even really about your OP, it's about the posts that followed about how "womminfolk" are terrified to say no to other people without fear of Ebil Mens beating the shit out of them, like it's something super rampant and common and it's un-fucking-believable why we're not sending the army in to wrangle up these mass amounts of harassers on the streets

 

You'd be surprised man. A lot of the time, people making these comments aren't exactly "nice" and tend to get aggressive when being told "no thanks". That's why a lot of people ignore people harassing them on the street, they don't want to risk getting one of those confrontational people and possibly ending up in the hospital over it. Not even coming from a gendered standpoint, usually telling off any strangers in the street isn't wise at all because you have no way of knowing how they'll react.

This doesn't surprise me ebcause I've been harassed before. I'm not talking on this subject with a lack of experience.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Gamedog

[Kaizy]

This doesn't surprise me ebcause I've been harassed before. I'm not talking on this subject with a lack of experience.

Yeah, most people have had experience with this. The point I'm making is, it's not so cut-and-dry. It's not as easy as just telling people to piss off or not giving a fuck because it doesn't solve the problem of verbal street harassment. The point I had brought up a few times is that this idea that making uncalled for verbal remarks to strangers on the street shouldn't just be shrugged off and encouraged while also telling the victims of said encounters that they need to "get over it" n such. There needs to be more pushing of the idea that this isn't acceptable behavior and have it more common for more people to step in and prevent it.

[Gamedog]

Yeah, most people have had experience with this. The point I'm making is, it's not so cut-and-dry. It's not as easy as just telling people to piss off or not giving a fuck because it doesn't solve the problem of verbal street harassment. The point I had brought up a few times is that this idea that making uncalled for verbal remarks to strangers on the street shouldn't just be shrugged off and encouraged while also telling the victims of said encounters that they need to "get over it" n such. There needs to be more pushing of the idea that this isn't acceptable behavior and have it more common for more people to step in and prevent it.

The issue with ignoring it or not saying anything back is that it gives the impression (to the ignorant harasser, anyways), that such harassment is welcome.

My sister always asks me why I wave to people if they wave to me, or why I say hi if they say hi to me, and my answer is simple: it doesn't bother me to do it, and it's not an impolite gesture. If me waving back or saying hi to them makes their day, then I'll do so.

Things that aren't acceptable (TO ME) is: yelling at me from your car, honking at me while I'm walking, driving up beside me and asking me to party, etc.

We need to be doing anything except ignoring the problem, which is what not retaliating does.

[Kaizy]

The issue with ignoring it or not saying anything back is that it gives the impression (to the ignorant harasser, anyways), that such harassment is welcome.

My sister always asks me why I wave to people if they wave to me, or why I say hi if they say hi to me, and my answer is simple: it doesn't bother me to do it, and it's not an impolite gesture. If me waving back or saying hi to them makes their day, then I'll do so.

Things that aren't acceptable (TO ME) is: yelling at me from your car, honking at me while I'm walking, driving up beside me and asking me to party, etc.

We need to be doing anything except ignoring the problem, which is what not retaliating does.

Yeah exactly. That's the point.

A friendly gesture or compliment like "I like your shirt/hair/ect" is perfectly fine, but anything more personal and/or sexual is definitely not called for.

[Gamedog]

Yeah exactly. That's the point.

A friendly gesture or compliment like "I like your shirt/hair/ect" is perfectly fine, but anything more personal and/or sexual is definitely not called for.

So say something about it!
I'm honestly surprised that your response wasn't the usual "we need to be teaching people to not say these things instead". The reason why I hate that quote is because it does nothing. If you say "stop complimenting people in a sexual manner", there's always going to be someone who says "well nobody has ever taken offense to it before". The way to stop a behaviour is to discourage the bad, and encourage the good. You won't stop a behaviour like this by saying "don't do it".

Treat harassers like dogs. Tell them no if they say something disgusting, and thank them if they say something nice. If more and more people take this up, a harasser who goes around doing this routinely will soon realize that saying sexual things gets them bad responses, and saying nice things will get them good responses.

Of course I'm going to get a dumb reply from somebody saying "we shouldn't have to do that!!!" to which I say: this isn't Candyland. Go take some peyote if you want to live in Candyland.

[Guest]

 

If nobody is understanding or getting the point of what you're saying, maybe it's because it makes no fucking sense. ]:

I really don't care for your dumb make-believe scenarios where I barge into a group of crying women and ruin theri day, please don't degenerate into this sort of a conversation. I've not derailed any conversation here, I simply replied to a post you made about carrying protection to protect yourself from men, because apparently we go around and hit on chicks and will kill them if they say no.

Your post is why I made a post in this thread, YOUR post. Lol.

Buddy, everyone else sure is getting it. 80% chance it ain't the concept that's dumb. : / I mean, I tried explaining it. Aint my fault you're too darn concerned about your feelings to see I'm not attacking every man. 

And to think, the only thing I wanted from this egregious conversation was "Man, you're right ley. While other people do experience different kinds of assault, at this moment, we are talking about women who get creeped on by a select few gross men in their day-to-day lives, and maybe I shouldn't have brought it up."

"because apparently we go around and hit on chicks and will kill them if they say no." because yes, super exactly what I said. I hate all men, Clay, you gotta know that. All of 'em gotta die gruesome deaths. Yep, totally. Super think we should live like the gazorpazorps so that I could wave my big feminist titties everywhere and cry about our leaking vaginas while watching lifetime movies on repeat. 

I literally exactly said that. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Lemon

[Kaizy]

So say something about it!I'm honestly surprised that your response wasn't the usual "we need to be teaching people to not say these things instead". The reason why I hate that quote is because it does nothing. If you say "stop complimenting people in a sexual manner", there's always going to be someone who says "well nobody has ever taken offense to it before". The way to stop a behaviour is to discourage the bad, and encourage the good. You won't stop a behaviour like this by saying "don't do it".

Treat harassers like dogs. Tell them no if they say something disgusting, and thank them if they say something nice. If more and more people take this up, a harasser who goes around doing this routinely will soon realize that saying sexual things gets them bad responses, and saying nice things will get them good responses.

Of course I'm going to get a dumb reply from somebody saying "we shouldn't have to do that!!!" to which I say: this isn't Candyland. Go take some peyote if you want to live in Candyland.

Honestly, people shouldn't have to, but given how people are, it's not as easy as that. That's why I've been saying it needs to be more commonly perpetuated that those actions aren't called for instead of silently allowing people to do as they please. But sometimes one person standing up to another isn't enough and there needs to be others that stand up for them as well, but others stay quiet when it happens. They've done studies and tests on this in stranger on stranger scenarios and even some domestic abuse ones, and others usually wont get involved, even in public. It's sad really.

[Gamedog]

Buddy, everyone else sure is getting it. 80% chance it ain't me that's dumb. : / I mean, I tried explaining it. Aint my fault you're too pigheaded to get it, and also too darn concerned about your feelings to see I'm not attacking every man. 

And to think, the only thing I wanted from this egregious conversation was "Man, you're right ley. While other people do experience different kinds of assault, at this moment, we are talking about women who get creeped on by a select few gross men in their day-to-day lives, and maybe I shouldn't have brought it up."

I mean, I really shouldn't expect more of you. I gotta know this by now :[

"because apparently we go around and hit on chicks and will kill them if they say no." because yes, super exactly what I said. I hate all men, Clay, you gotta know that. All of 'em gotta die gruesome deaths. Yep, totally. Super think we should live like the gazorpazorps so that I could wave my big feminist titties everywhere and cry about our leaking vaginas while watching lifetime movies on repeat. 

I literally exactly said that. 

I didn't call you dumb, and I really don't appreciate you devolving this topic into personal insults against me and anyone else who disagrees with you.

You've made it very clear that you believe that being killed is a real threat in your daily life, while you're walking around and having men hit on you. You've expressed concern over the illegality of carrying personal protection to fight off the me who will kill you for turning them down. You act as if there's men in droves, creeping around in bushes, waiting for the codeword "no" to choose that moment to strike.

 

Honestly, people shouldn't have to, but given how people are, it's not as easy as that. That's why I've been saying it needs to be more commonly perpetuated that those actions aren't called for instead of silently allowing people to do as they please. But sometimes one person standing up to another isn't enough and there needs to be others that stand up for them as well, but others stay quiet when it happens. They've done studies and tests on this in stranger on stranger scenarios and even some domestic abuse ones, and others usually wont get involved, even in public. It's sad really.

I think my favourite social experiment is when mothers dressed up as young women and walked by their sons on the street, and then called them out when they were harassed.

[Kaizy]

I think my favourite social experiment is when mothers dressed up as young women and walked by their sons on the street, and then called them out when they were harassed.

That one was great. You could just see the moment when they realized they fucked up bad lol.

[Guest]

Honestly, people shouldn't have to, but given how people are, it's not as easy as that. That's why I've been saying it needs to be more commonly perpetuated that those actions aren't called for instead of silently allowing people to do as they please. But sometimes one person standing up to another isn't enough and there needs to be others that stand up for them as well, but others stay quiet when it happens. They've done studies and tests on this in stranger on stranger scenarios and even some domestic abuse ones, and others usually wont get involved, even in public. It's sad really.

Its the uhh. The whatsit. The bystander effect[1]. Its quite scary how easily it happens. In a group, folks are more likely to believe someone else will do what needs to be done. Whats scarier is that the bigger the crowd, the less likely someone will do something. 

@Gamedog you're right, I was shitty for the ad hohenheim attacks. Edited those lil bitches out. But just because I didn't exactly specify "SOME men do this stuff"in every single time I said 'men do this', that you think I believe all men do it. I mean, as usual, topics like these were famously fast shit-threads and I know full well your stances on various feminine things, so agree do disagree and all of that jazz. *confetti* I think you and I would agree that talking to eachother about stuff like this quickly devolves since you and I are at polar opposites of the situation; literally and figuratively. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Lemon

[Zaraphayx]

Zara, it makes sense as to why dudes don't complain when women are aggressive and creepy. Biologically, the average man has much more physical strength than the average woman. So when a woman aggressively flirts at the guy, providing she is anything other than attractive to the guy assuming he's straight, he will feel comfortable because he can easily overpower her. 

Think of living in a world where the average guy can overpower you at any moment. Shit's terrifying if you think about it. My boyfriend, for instance, is a paramedic and needs to haul big-ass people every day during work. When we play fight, I put in my best to try to topple him over, or turn him around, or drag him around and shits tough. However, when he does it to me, and I'm a big girl, he can do so with ease. Literally no sweat. He'll hold me down with a fraction of what it takes to do it. I trust him implicitly and with my life, but if you really think about it- he has the power to do stuff to me I don't want and there's nothing i can do about it. 

That's why average women are afraid of the average man, but the average man isn't afraid of the average woman. Yes, men are raped, and yes, men are victimized by women. I'm not saying they're not. However, the most usual cases of women assaulting men are older women and much younger boys, inebriated men, men drugged then forcibly tied up, viagra, blackmail.. It isn't common for a woman to forcibly and physically overpower a man and do whatever she wants to him. 

I'd hazard to say most women on the forums here have experienced a situation where they got unwanted male attention. Sure, a compliment is a compliment, but imagine it came from someone who could be your father (infantilization/objectification), or from someone who looked like they'd harm you if you showed or did anything other than a polite smile. Heck, that's happened to me before in broad daylight. Homeless guy yelled to me and my friend if he could 'get in on some of that pussy action', and whne I rolled my eyes he started going towards us saying shit like 'don't fucking ignore me, bitches'. It wasn't till we ducked into a record store we felt good enough to leave, ~30 minutes later. Its everywhere and anywhere there's a risk of being taken advantage of by a dude, be it your personal space, your looks, etc.. in some places its super not safe to be a woman. 

I don't intend for this to sound snappy but it probably will anyway.

I don't need a crash course on the dynamics of power differentials between people - both on an individual scale or a larger scale between the sexes. I am very familiar with what it feels like to be powerless. I grew up with a step-father who routinely reminded me that he could hit me, pin me down, and force me into submission whenever he felt like it and there was nothing I could do about it.

I also grew up in a bad neighborhood and lived there well into my 20's and on more than a few occasions would0 have groups of men who were older and doubtless stronger than me follow me as I was walking places and yell "faggot" "pretty boy" and other inflammatory shit at me just because I'm a skinny white dude with long hair. If I would have ever done anything but ignore them and kept walking I'm almost certain I would have been jumped and beaten if I couldn't outrun them.

I'm like 5'10, at the height of my physical fitness I was 160 pounds. A non-trivial number of men could physically overpower me and many are more willing to because there isn't a cultural taboo against physically assaulting men and any onlookers are much less likely to come to my defense. Stories like mine aren't uncommon, the only difference is that in one case you're being harassed in a sexual context and in the case of most men it's a much more openly aggressive and visceral instinct motivating it. In some places it isn't exactly "super safe" to be a guy either, men do not just walk around anywhere they like without fear of consequences and for whatever reason a non-trivial number of women seem to labor under the delusion that we do.

My experiences like these throughout my life thus far have made me hyperviligant and distrustful of people I don't know, and sometimes even the ones I do. I mentioned that women have invaded my personal space before and let me tell you, the hindbrain of someone who is conditioned negatively for unexpected physical contact doesn't discriminate when it comes to who is doing it. Every time someone touches me and I don't see it coming my "fight" mode kicks in and I have to be in a constant state of willful restraint to not grab or strike whoever it was immediately. Yet in that situation who do you think is more likely to be seen as the aggressor? Reverse the sexes and it suddenly changes. A man laying his hands on an unwilling woman and gets a slap to the face or even worse would have a much different connotation.

If I am ever alone with a stranger I am thinking of ways to disable them and/or escape if things go south. If someone ever grabs or attempts to physically inhibit me even in jest it's like every neuron in my body is screaming that I'm in danger. When I was younger and much less in control of myself, a guy who I was dating came up behind me when I was on the computer, put his hand on my shoulder and I jumped, spun around, and grabbed his wrist before I could even think about what was going on. You talk about having to put trust in your partner to not physically overpower you and I completely understand where you're coming from. It is extremely difficult for me to trust sexual partners who I don't think I could overpower if it ever were to come to it.

I have trained in self-defense and if I am ever outside of my house and in a place where it is legal to be armed, I am armed because I do not externalize the responsibility of my safety. The reason I take issue with "street harassment" and the differentials of power being portrayed as an issue that purely effects women is because I often get the impression that women don't think that guys like me even exist, and it's probably because we're brutally aware of the fact that complaining about it on the internet is not going to keep us safe.

Except when we take measures to ensure our own safety and the safety of others around us we're portrayed as paranoid, violent, or both, even while the same people saying it will shame other men who naively believe that advocating for male victims will get them anything but mocked for being trilby-wearing, sexually entitled misogynists.

:effortpost:


 

 

[Luka]

I'm reminded of the popular term "cougar".

[Gamedog]

I'm reminded of the popular term "cougar".

other fine terms are "manther" (older man going after young women) and "chicken-hawk" (older man going after younger men)

[Clove Darkwave]

I don't intend for this to sound snappy but it probably will anyway.
I don't need a crash course on the dynamics of power differentials between people - both on an individual scale or a larger scale between the sexes. I am very familiar with what it feels like to be powerless. I grew up with a step-father who routinely reminded me that he could hit me, pin me down, and force me into submission whenever he felt like it and there was nothing I could do about it.

I also grew up in a bad neighborhood and lived there well into my 20's and on more than a few occasions would0 have groups of men who were older and doubtless stronger than me follow me as I was walking places and yell "faggot" "pretty boy" and other inflammatory shit at me just because I'm a skinny white dude with long hair. If I would have ever done anything but ignore them and kept walking I'm almost certain I would have been jumped and beaten if I couldn't outrun them.

I'm like 5'10, at the height of my physical fitness I was 160 pounds. A non-trivial number of men could physically overpower me and many are more willing to because there isn't a cultural taboo against physically assaulting men and any onlookers are much less likely to come to my defense. Stories like mine aren't uncommon, the only difference is that in one case you're being harassed in a sexual context and in the case of most men it's a much more openly aggressive and visceral instinct motivating it. In some places it isn't exactly "super safe" to be a guy either, men do not just walk around anywhere they like without fear of consequences and for whatever reason a non-trivial number of women seem to labor under the delusion that we do.

My experiences like these throughout my life thus far have made me hyperviligant and distrustful of people I don't know, and sometimes even the ones I do. I mentioned that women have invaded my personal space before and let me tell you, the hindbrain of someone who is conditioned negatively for unexpected physical contact doesn't discriminate when it comes to who is doing it. Every time someone touches me and I don't see it coming my "fight" mode kicks in and I have to be in a constant state of willful restraint to not grab or strike whoever it was immediately. Yet in that situation who do you think is more likely to be seen as the aggressor? Reverse the sexes and it suddenly changes. A man laying his hands on an unwilling woman and gets a slap to the face or even worse would have a much different connotation.

If I am ever alone with a stranger I am thinking of ways to disable them and/or escape if things go south. If someone ever grabs or attempts to physically inhibit me even in jest it's like every neuron in my body is screaming that I'm in danger. When I was younger and much less in control of myself, a guy who I was dating came up behind me when I was on the computer, put his hand on my shoulder and I jumped, spun around, and grabbed his wrist before I could even think about what was going on. You talk about having to put trust in your partner to not physically overpower you and I completely understand where you're coming from. It is extremely difficult for me to trust sexual partners who I don't think I could overpower if it ever were to come to it.

I have trained in self-defense and if I am ever outside of my house and in a place where it is legal to be armed, I am armed because I do not externalize the responsibility of my safety. The reason I take issue with "street harassment" and the differentials of power being portrayed as an issue that purely effects women is because I often get the impression that women don't think that guys like me even exist, and it's probably because we're brutally aware of the fact that complaining about it on the internet is not going to keep us safe.

Except when we take measures to ensure our own safety and the safety of others around us we're portrayed as paranoid, violent, or both, even while the same people saying it will shame other men who naively believe that advocating for male victims will get them anything but mocked for being trilby-wearing, sexually entitled misogynists.

:effortpost:


 

 

As someone that's come from a strikingly similar background of pain and abuse, I'd like to give a stronger nod to this.

It's a shame I can't take more measures to protect myself without being labeled as a dangerous psychopath. In fact I already am despite being more or less defenseless.

And it's a real shame people would rather slander each other for ancillary reasons instead of waking up and realizing we have a mentality among certain parts of humanity as a whole that needs to be stopped.

[Butters]

If "To Catch A Predator" taught us anything, it's that society has a lot more pedophiles than it  thought it did. 

also, my fiancé and I sat next to a group of high school girls on a train and they got invited for sexy times twice. They were clearly underage. It's a fucked up thing. 

[MissFleece]

I just feel like, as a society, we should watch out for this, call it out, and shame the people who do it. I think leaving it up to the target/victim is not the proper solution, since they may be too young or scared to act. I know that people aren't around most the time, but when they are...well, we should encourage a negative reaction to the situation. 

[Kalmor]

This topic reminds me of times I'm walking home from school and there's a girl walking alone in front of me, I deliberately slow down as to not catch her quickly (I'm a fast walker), through worry that I'd make her uncomfortable otherwise.

I don't know if this is helping or not. :V