Rant: Old Men

[Wolflich]

Walking is always awkward when there's only two people around. You can try to overtake them and hope they let it happen and be done with it, but risk them thinking you're just trying to get close to them and maybe even start going faster themselves making it especially weird. Match their speed and risk seeming like you're following them. Slow down and let them go but take for-fucking-ever to get anywhere. There's really no winning. And it's funny how sometimes even a group of people will go out of their way to avoid me. I'm not huge or anything but it happens a lot. One group on a path through the woods at night kind of nervously laughed and jokingly (at least, I think they were joking) asked me not to murder them.

One time I was walking home along an unlit wooded path at night and some girl coming the other way shone her light directly at my face the whole time we were passing each other. It was kind of hard not to laugh because I mean wtf... is that supposed to make attack more or less likely? Maybe I'm a serial killer and people shining lights in my face where there's nobody else around to even see us are my victim profile. ಠ__ಠ

[Butters]

I just feel like, as a society, we should watch out for this, call it out, and shame the people who do it. I think leaving it up to the target/victim is not the proper solution, since they may be too young or scared to act. I know that people aren't around most the time, but when they are...well, we should encourage a negative reaction to the situation. 

well, my fiancé and I were having an argument at the time so I wasn able to give the situation my full attention til halfway through. I made it clear that the first dude looked pathetic and the entire train was kinda "omg you fucking creep" with their glare. The second group was a bunch of muscly frat guys and my super tall fiance told them to fuck off. :3

Ill be honest, this really is a major problem among the male sex especially straight guys. (But God knows we have some gay creepers too) I think it's because it's more accepted thst men go for younger people, but my god...sometimes you just have to call a pedophile a pedophile and not be afraid to address such a cultural problem. 

[Irreverent]

I want hot gay dads to call me sexy! !

Would you settle for 2 out of three?  Sexy!

Gone are the days when a gentleman can compliment a young lady on her appearance without the risk of slander or scandal.

[Sutekh_the_Steak]

I'm a guy so I don't get cat-called but I feel bad for my sister on this. She just moved to France for her university year abroad, and she says she's already been cat-called more times in the three weeks she's been there than she was the whole two years she was at uni back here in Scotland. Men of all ages too, not just old men. One guy even went over to her in the street and straight up said "I am looking for a woman to fuck", but she just kept walking and thankfully he didn't keep trying to harass her or anything.

I really don't get why some people cat-call. It's fucking creepy, having respect for people doesn't cost anything so just don't do it.

[#00Buck]

Pedos are gross.

Other than that people should be allowed to find other people attractive. 

I'm old. I still find young women attractive. I will still find them attractive when I'm 90 years old. Nothing wrong with that. 

I see nothing wrong with "flirting." That's how I met my love. 

I do see something wrong with licking your fingers and yelling obscene stuff. But I've never done that. 

[Ayattar]

She just moved to France for her university year abroad, and she says she's already been cat-called more times in the three weeks she's been there than she was the whole two years she was at uni back here in Scotland.

It's cultural. From what Kooky told me, people in France are a lot more direct with their sexuality and sex-related things. There is a certain corelation between that, often being described as a "temperament" (but in truth being purely cultural difference, mainly caused by the influence of protestantism and it's stance on the subject), and place of living. We should now ask for an opinion someone from Canada/North USA/Scandinavia and Mediterranean/Latin America.

 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Ayattar

[#00Buck]

It's cultural. From what Kooky told me, people in France are a lot more direct with their sexuality and sex-related things. There is a certain corelation between that, often being described as a "temperament" (but in truth being purely cultural difference, mainly caused by the influence of protestantism and it's stance on the subject), and place of living. We should now ask for an opinion someone from Canada/North USA/Scandinavia and Mediterranean/Latin America.

 

People in France also tend not to be uptight and look for excuses to be offended by everything.

That's more an an American thing these days. 

The French invented cuisine. The basis for all western cooking. They know how to enjoy themselves. 

They smoke lots of cigarettes, eat amazing food, delicious deserts, have wine with every meal. 

So yeah, I'd wager they like sex and attractive looking people too. 

[Sutekh_the_Steak]

It's cultural. From what Kooky told me, people in France are a lot more direct with their sexuality and sex-related things. There is a certain corelation between that, often being described as a "temperament" (but in truth being purely cultural difference), and place of living. We should now ask for an opinion someone from Canada/North USA/Scandinavia and Mediterranean/Latin America.

Oh yeah, I get it's a cultural thing. I was just using that as an example of somebody I know being cat-called/harassed/whatever seeing as I haven't had any experience of it.

I wasn't meaning to be all "French people are bad because cat-calling >:c" or anything like that, if that's the impression I gave. :V

[Ayattar]

Not directly related to the topic, but closely connected to how... creepy americans are when it comes to the love and refusal.

What the hell america?

[MissFleece]

Not directly related to the topic, but closely connected to how... creepy americans are when it comes to the love and refusal.

What the hell america?

The fuck!? 

What the fuck. 

What I find slightly ridiculous is that her friend drove the hitman there...

[Alexxx-Returns]

This topic reminds me of times I'm walking home from school and there's a girl walking alone in front of me, I deliberately slow down as to not catch her quickly (I'm a fast walker), through worry that I'd make her uncomfortable otherwise.

I don't know if this is helping or not. :V

See, that's still very sad. You shouldn't be made to feel guilty for doing absolutely nothing.

When I was 18, I got a job as a barman. On my very second day, this old guy (from appearance I would judge late 40s-mid 50s, big fat thing, looked like the character Minty in Eastenders, very good likeness, wearing a football shirt) and literally the moment our eyes met, he fuckin' winked at me and gave this shit eating grin. I just looked away in discomfort, I mean, it was just a wink, but it made my skin crawl.

It's like... yeah mate, way to make me feel REALLY settled at my brand new job. Like people have been saying in this thread already, people who do this kind of thing have no consideration for their victim's thoughts or feelings.

[ChaosCalix]

I'd think it might be worse for men too, since they're told to laugh it off. Women are at least validated when they feel creeped out. Men have no support system for things like this and they need it.  

Personally can confirm, in my case.

I have enough difficulty accepting compliments and advances from people I DO know. When I get it from people I don't (which does happen from time to time), it makes me extremely uncomfortable... But I can't really do much about it. At least I look somewhat imposing because of my size.. even if I'm not strong at all.

-snip-

My experiences like these throughout my life thus far have made me hyperviligant and distrustful of people I don't know, and sometimes even the ones I do. I mentioned that women have invaded my personal space before and let me tell you, the hindbrain of someone who is conditioned negatively for unexpected physical contact doesn't discriminate when it comes to who is doing it. Every time someone touches me and I don't see it coming my "fight" mode kicks in and I have to be in a constant state of willful restraint to not grab or strike whoever it was immediately. Yet in that situation who do you think is more likely to be seen as the aggressor? Reverse the sexes and it suddenly changes. A man laying his hands on an unwilling woman and gets a slap to the face or even worse would have a much different connotation.

If I am ever alone with a stranger I am thinking of ways to disable them and/or escape if things go south. If someone ever grabs or attempts to physically inhibit me even in jest it's like every neuron in my body is screaming that I'm in danger. When I was younger and much less in control of myself, a guy who I was dating came up behind me when I was on the computer, put his hand on my shoulder and I jumped, spun around, and grabbed his wrist before I could even think about what was going on. You talk about having to put trust in your partner to not physically overpower you and I completely understand where you're coming from. It is extremely difficult for me to trust sexual partners who I don't think I could overpower if it ever were to come to it.

-snip-

Fucking hell, didn't expect to find a post (from you of all people, too) that hit the nail on the head for me. I know exactly how you feel. And some people treat it as a fucking joke. I have been grab-hugged, poked, booped, and whateverthehell else, and every time, I want to just scream at them to fuck off. So far no one has managed to close a hug on me, but even what they HAVE managed has thrown me into a borderline panic attack and forced me to walk away so I don't do anything. It takes literally every bit of my self restraint to not turn around and lash out at them when they do things like this, and despite telling them why they shouldn't do this stuff to me, they do anyway.

Maybe I should type a full rant about this later =/

[Kaizy]

Pedos are gross.

Other than that people should be allowed to find other people attractive. 

I'm old. I still find young women attractive. I will still find them attractive when I'm 90 years old. Nothing wrong with that. 

I see nothing wrong with "flirting." That's how I met my love. 

I do see something wrong with licking your fingers and yelling obscene stuff. But I've never done that. 

Well flirting with people hasn't been the problem here. It's that thing about unwarranted flirting/comments. People seem to think that they're completely within right to say whatever comments they want about someone, regardless of whether or not they're out-of-line and borderline creepy, and then throw a fit when they're called out on it. And then there's others who defend those people, usually stating something along the lines "just accept the complement" or "First Amendment, I can say what I want, MUH FREEDOM".

[Vallium]

Didnt my grandparents/parents always tell about when streets were safe and kids could walk to home and to the cornerstore and play outside whenever?

Nowadays theres too many pedophiles (and TV) for it to be safe to go outside.

IWhat exactly changed? Awareness? Has pedophilia and kidnapping happened behind closed doors and came out to light years later?

Edited October 4, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1

[MissFleece]

Didnt my grandparents/parents always tell about when streets were safe and kids could walk to home and to the cornerstore and play outside whenever?

Nowadays theres too many pedophiles (and videogames) for it to be safe to go outside.

IWhat exactly changed? Awareness? Has pedophilia and kidnapping happened behind closed doors and came out to light years later?

The streets were safe when I was a kid, for the most part. I didn't get harassed by strangers until my teen years. 

[Butters]

Didnt my grandparents/parents always tell about when streets were safe and kids could walk to home and to the cornerstore and play outside whenever?

Nowadays theres too many pedophiles (and TV) for it to be safe to go outside.

IWhat exactly changed? Awareness? Has pedophilia and kidnapping happened behind closed doors and came out to light years later?

your grandparents had rose coloured glasses as many people do with nostalgic feelings. People used to hitchhike in the past and got killed and raped. But of course, it didn't happen to your grandparents so it didn't happen at all :vvv

and btw, ppl used to lust after and marry 14 year olds in the past. The good ole days are never as good as people make them out to be. 

[Kaizy]

your grandparents had rose coloured glasses as many people do with nostalgic feelings. People used to hitchhike in the past and got killed and raped. But of course, it didn't happen to your grandparents so it didn't happen at all :vvv

and btw, ppl used to lust after and marry 14 year olds in the past. The good ole days are never as good as people make them out to be. 

Agreed. The problems are just as prevalent as they were before, it's just gotten more common to speak up on them now than it was before.

[Gnarl]

As strange as it might seem to some, i often hear more from my son being harrassed by the older women at his work than from my daughter, and they both work at the same place. I wonder if the experiences you describe have in fact trained the women to be better able to handle it. 

[Kaizy]

As strange as it might seem to some, i often hear more from my son being harrassed by the older women at his work than from my daughter, and they both work at the same place. I wonder if the experiences you describe have in fact trained the women to be better able to handle it. 

It's true. As people mentioned before, guys are a lot less trained to handle being harassed because societal norms either tell them to "toughen up" or are praised when older women hit on them, regardless of whether or not it's wanted. So you either won't hear about it, or it'll be very uncommon, because most of the time they're not trained to handle those situations, and they're trained to not complain about them.

[#00Buck]

Well flirting with people hasn't been the problem here. It's that thing about unwarranted flirting/comments. People seem to think that they're completely within right to say whatever comments they want about someone, regardless of whether or not they're out-of-line and borderline creepy, and then throw a fit when they're called out on it. And then there's others who defend those people, usually stating something along the lines "just accept the complement" or "First Amendment, I can say what I want, MUH FREEDOM".

Yeah, but how do you tell what is unwanted?

You don't know until you try to start a conversation. 

So really it comes down to "never talk to anyone ever." 

Because the second you open your mouth your words might be unwanted. 

Yet some people wonder why they are so lonely...

Edited October 4, 2015 by #00Buck

[MissFleece]

Yeah, but how do you tell what is unwanted?

You don't know until you try to start a conversation. 

So really it comes down to "never talk to anyone ever." 

Because the second you open your mouth your words might be unwanted. 

Yet some people wonder why they are so lonely...

"hey how's the weather" "I like your dress!" are a lot less unwanted than 

"HEY BB WaNT SUM FUK!?" 
"I bet I could stick my whole fist up your ass!"

"hey, don't be like that, just come home with me, you'll have fun!"

even "you really shouldn't dress like that."

Conversations aren't the problem. Don't be an asshole and you'll be fine. 

[#00Buck]

"hey how's the weather" "I like your dress!" are a lot less unwanted than 

"HEY BB WaNT SUM FUK!?" 
"I bet I could stick my whole fist up your ass!"

"hey, don't be like that, just come home with me, you'll have fun!"

even "you really shouldn't dress like that."

Conversations aren't the problem. Don't be an asshole and you'll be fine. 

I disagree. 

In many cases you can be totally polite and still be unwanted. 

It only has to do with if you find the person who is talking to you attractive or not. 

If an unattractive man talks to a woman she gets offended just because of how he looks.

The sad thing is a lot of people can't help how they look. 

[Kaizy]

Yeah, but how do you tell what is unwanted?

You don't know until you try to start a conversation. 

So really it comes down to "never talk to anyone ever." 

Because the second you open your mouth your words might be unwanted. 

Yet some people wonder why they are so lonely...

You're bringing up an extremity. Just because you can't openly hit on anyone you want doesn't just boil the issue down to a "never talk to anyone ever" scenario. Most people don't mind simple conversation, a friendly compliment, ect. It's easy to know when and when not to try flirting with someone, and there's also body language and just general tones in a person's voice that'll indicate whether or not they're interested in talking.

The point is, yes, some people don't want to talk or be given compliments, but you're not entitled to have a conversation or compliment anyone you speak to, and they're not inclined to accept it.

[Ansitru]

Adding onto what MissFleece said: if someone is reading, listening to music or has a very closed-up body-language (hard to explain, but if you see it, you'll usually know), then conversation is probably not what they want. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Ansitru

[#00Buck]

You're bringing up an extremity. Just because you can't openly hit on anyone you want doesn't just boil the issue down to a "never talk to anyone ever" scenario. Most people don't mind simple conversation, a friendly compliment, ect. It's easy to know when and when not to try flirting with someone, and there's also body language and just general tones in a person's voice that'll indicate whether or not they're interested in talking.

The point is, yes, some people don't want to talk or be given compliments, but you're not entitled to have a conversation or compliment anyone you speak to, and they're not inclined to accept it.

You just proved my point. 

The only way not to offend anyone is to never talk to anyone. 

That's a sad way to live your life. 

[Kaizy]

I disagree. 

In many cases you can be totally polite and still be unwanted. 

It only has to do with if you find the person who is talking to you attractive or not. 

If an unattractive man talks to a woman she gets offended just because of how he looks.

The sad thing is a lot of people can't help how they look. 

You're missing the point.

No one is obligated to talk to you, especially not strangers.

You aren't entitled to conversations just because you're being nice.

That's not how things work.

[MissFleece]

You just proved my point. 

The only way not to offend anyone is to never talk to anyone. 

That's a sad way to live your life. 

That's not what she's saying at all.

She's saying people can chose to not talk to you if they want, they aren't obligated to accept you just because you wanted to talk to them. 

[Kaizy]

You just proved my point. 

The only way not to offend anyone is to never talk to anyone. 

That's a sad way to live your life. 

That doesn't prove your point unless your point was "I should be able to flirt with anyone I want and they're obligated to talk to me if I'm nice, otherwise they're just being dumb". This is not how life works.

[#00Buck]

You're missing the point.

No one is obligated to talk to you, especially not strangers.

You aren't entitled to conversations just because you're being nice.

That's not how things work.

You are just reinforcing my point even more. 

I'm just saying the world is a lonely place if nobody ever talks to each other.

How are people supposed to meet anyone if they can't talk?

[MissFleece]

You are just reinforcing my point even more. 

I'm just saying the world is a lonely place if nobody ever talks to each other.

How are people supposed to meet anyone if they can't talk?

Your circular logic is frustrating...

[Kaizy]

You are just reinforcing my point even more. 

I'm just saying the world is a lonely place if nobody ever talks to each other.

How are people supposed to meet anyone if they can't talk?

You can talk, I did not say nobody is permitted to talk to each other. But some people don't want to talk, and you are not entitled to talk to them just because you're being nice.

[#00Buck]

That's not what she's saying at all.

She's saying people can chose to not talk to you if they want, they aren't obligated to accept you just because you wanted to talk to them. 

Right. They might be offended even if you are being polite and doing everything right. 

Which means if you want to speak to other humans you have to run the risk of occasionally offending someone. 

So offending people happens and needs to be accepted by people as a fact of life.

[Ansitru]

You are just reinforcing my point even more. 

I'm just saying the world is a lonely place if nobody ever talks to each other.

How are people supposed to meet anyone if they can't talk?

At bars, or other places where social interaction is seen more as a given, rather than when someone is just trying to get from point A to point B? 

[#00Buck]

At bars, or other places where social interaction is seen more as a given, rather than when someone is just trying to get from point A to point B? 

I've seen not so attractive guys approach women at bars and be very polite. 

Then the women insult and humiliate the guy just because they don't find him attractive.

You can't make such a big deal about "unwanted" attention if there's no way to tell what people want ahead of time.

Edited October 4, 2015 by #00Buck

[MissFleece]

Right. They might be offended even if you are being polite and doing everything right. 

Which means if you want to speak to other humans you have to run the risk of occasionally offending someone. 

So offending people happens and needs to be accepted by people as a fact of life.

I'm not even saying they're offended. Not wanting to talk to people doesn't mean you're offended, it just means you dont want to talk to people. If someone is talking to you and you don't want to talk, if they are being polite, at most they will be annoyed/bothered, not offended. 

[Kaizy]

Right. They might be offended even if you are being polite and doing everything right. 

Which means if you want to speak to other humans you have to run the risk of occasionally offending someone. 

So offending people happens and needs to be accepted by people as a fact of life.

You run those risks when you try to converse with strangers in random places. Not everyone is out trying to be a social butterfly and chitchat, some people just want to go to wherever and would rather not be bothered. Try going to a place like a bar or club, where people are actually there to socialize.

[#00Buck]

You run those risks when you try to converse with strangers in random places. Not everyone is out trying to be a social butterfly and chitchat, some people just want to go to wherever and would rather not be bothered. Try going to a place like a bar or club, where people are actually there to socialize.

Just because you go to a bar or a club does not mean you want to socialize. 

[Kaizy]

Just because you go to a bar or a club does not mean you want to socialize. 

And you think strangers on the street are more inclined to chat and flirt than people in a bar/club?

[MissFleece]

Just because you go to a bar or a club does not mean you want to socialize. 

They're more likely to be susceptible to chitchat and the like, though. Rather than just stopped while they're going about their day. 

[#00Buck]

And you think strangers on the street are more inclined to chat and flirt than people in a bar/club?

No. Again you're reinforcing my point. 

You can never guarantee that attention is wanted or unwanted. 

So unless someone is being a total pedo or perv you should just chill.

[Butters]

Sexual harassment is a thing, you know, 00buck. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Butters

[MissFleece]

No. Again you're reinforcing my point. 

You can never guarantee that attention is wanted or unwanted. 

So unless someone is being a total pedo or perv you should just chill.

what a weird point to make in a thread about people being pedos and pervs...

[#00Buck]

Yeah, I know. I agreed to that a long time ago. 

I'm just saying some "unwanted" conversation is going to take place in normal life. People should relax a bit and not be so jumpy about it.

Sexual harassment is a thing, you know, 00buck. 

Read my first post I agree on this point totally. 

[Kaizy]

No. Again you're reinforcing my point. 

You can never guarantee that attention is wanted or unwanted. 

So unless someone is being a total pedo or perv you should just chill.

Again, it's not just about being nice. Everyone doesn't want to chat, especially when strangers approach them out of nowhere while they walk down the street.

This concept is really not that difficult.

Yes, you can't guarantee people are going to respond positively to your chatting, regardless of how nice you're being, but if you try talking to them and they seem uninterested, wish them a good day and go bother someone else. Don't get all hung up on the fact that one person isn't talking to you and it somehow means they're offended and no one will ever speak again without getting offended. If I don't want to talk to people, it's not because I'm offended said person came up to me and started talking, I simply don't feel like talking to some stranger. There's no "offensiveness" involved in any of these situations. The only time it becomes offensive is in harassment situations. Normal chitchat is not offensive, but people are not inclined to talk to you just because you're not being offensive.

I don't know how many more times I can reexplain the same point.

[MissFleece]

@#00Buck ...k

Except there's a difference between unwanted and offensive. And you don't seem to understand that. 

[#00Buck]

Okay...

So do either of you talk to strangers in real life?

[Butters]

Read my first post I agree on this point totally. 

there are consequences for different social interactions. I really don't see why we have to use kids gloves on people who fuck up. This kinda stinks of victim blaming. 

[#00Buck]

there are consequences for different social interactions. I really don't see why we have to use kids gloves on people who fuck up. This kinda stinks of victim blaming. 

Don't really know what you're getting at. I'm not blaming anyone for anything. 

[Kaizy]

Okay...

So do either of you talk to strangers in real life?

Occasionally. I won't go out of my way to talk to strangers unless I have to, but if they start talking to me, depending on the situation and my mood, I may or may not talk to them. If I'm busy or in an unpleasant mood, I will try to avoid conversation. I will do things like, constantly check my phone, look like I'm distracted with something, use my tone of voice to express that I'd rather not talk to someone right now, ect. They approach me nicely, but I'm not interested in talking a lot of the time. Just because people come up to me nicely doesn't mean I have to talk to them.

[#00Buck]

Occasionally. I won't go out of my way to talk to strangers unless I have to, but if they start talking to me, depending on the situation and my mood, I may or may not talk to them. If I'm busy or in an unpleasant mood, I will try to avoid conversation. I will do things like, constantly check my phone, look like I'm distracted with something, use my tone of voice to express that I'd rather not talk to someone right now, ect. They approach me nicely, but I'm not interested in talking a lot of the time. Just because people come up to me nicely doesn't mean I have to talk to them.

But you don't freak out on them.

Which is exactly the point I was making. 

You get some unwanted attention. It isn't the end of the world. Plus it isn't a reason to start a fight with the person or insult them. 

So talking to strangers is okay. You do it. It does't always work. But that's life. 

 

Edited October 4, 2015 by #00Buck