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SirRob

Super Smash Bros.

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I'm always down to play more if you are and I have the time. I was getting somewhere in the middle of those matches.

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Anyone down to play this weekend? I want to apply what I've been trying to learn about this game over the last few months. It's like every time I blink there's a new tech or combo to learn.

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So yesterday as Cloud I walljumped off the edge of the stage instead of grabbing on to it and lost because Cloud has shit recovery :)

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6 hours ago, Käpt'n said:

So yesterday as Cloud I walljumped off the edge of the stage instead of grabbing on to it and lost because Cloud has shit recovery :)

 

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9 hours ago, Eggdodger said:

 

On the other hand Vinny from Vinesauce managed to somehow walljump under Final Destination so his opponent tried to meteor smash him, fucked it up and Vinny won, even though he was completely outclassed by that Captain Falcon player :)

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Anyone up for some casual matches some time? I've been playing a lot of Smash Bros lately, while avoiding For Glory like the plague, and I'm actually having a great time.

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14 hours ago, SirRob said:

Anyone up for some casual matches some time? I've been playing a lot of Smash Bros lately, while avoiding For Glory like the plague, and I'm actually having a great time.

I'd be willing to play some after I get back from from work, but that's gonna be like after 7ET

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21 minutes ago, Luca said:

I'd be willing to play some after I get back from from work, but that's gonna be like after 7ET

Oh, great! That's about the same time I will be back from work.

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I had to find something to eat but I'm home now if you still want to play.

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Just now, SirRob said:

Aww, you could've eaten me, I wouldn't have minded. 3DS or Wii U?

O-oh...

lets  play on Wii U Please.

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I had fun, but that's enough for me. I can only take so much. I gave it a good try but I keep choking every time I have something going there.

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I had fun playing with you too! I'm surprised the other guy showed up, we are friends on Miiverse.

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Oh I just assumed he was someone from here on your friends list. 

I'm still alright to play again any time, even if I got blown up. You can always shoot me a message if you want or keep asking here.

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Emphasis on the blown up. There were so many explosions...! I think I'll keep asking here, it puts less pressure on folks when the offer is open to everyone. Although I might just shoot you a message just to say hi!

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I've been playing as Pikachu lately. Dunno why I haven't seriously tried learning him, he's awesome. I mean his moveset is okay but his side taunt and backwards crawl are top tier.

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Just played Cloud for the first time, he's really fun. i'll just talk about my least favorite thing about him and my 3 favorite moves of his. 

His recovery is pretty ass, even more so since he doesn't auto sweet-spot ledges so yea he dies a lot from not being able to recover.

now for my 3 favorite moves, his B-air is really good, fast and long range and can also hit very low to the ground.

Though in terms of aerials his U-air is by far his best and easily his best move by itself. It's fast, powerful, kills, with good range and priority. you pretty much never wanna be above cloud cause that u-air will beat everything. if they air dodge Cloud can just wait and punish it with an u-air, it's so amazing at juggling poeple. it is such a great move.

However my favorite move of his is his down-b Charge. Unlike other charges this one can cancel instantly if you press the b button again. So every time you're doing nothing you can just charge down-b. Like one thing i had amazing success with was following someone who was knocked in the air and just falling below them while charging down-b they're totally boned cause you can just cancel it into up-air on reaction to anything they do, and if they try to attack you can just dodge out of the charge, though your u-air will win that trade so many times.

 

Overall Cloud is really fun just with a shitty recovery.

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I still need to get used to fighting Cloud... I always get surprised by the range of his forward smash. I think he's fun to play as too, but I already have Ike as my swordsman boyfriend, so I'm not interested in learning him seriously.

Edited by SirRob

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Here's a neat gif of me doing some Falcon shenanigans at a local I went to a little while ago

InfamousBleakAustraliankelpie.gif

I know none of you guys play melee but I figured you'd appreciate it anyways x3

edit: wow that's really poopy looking in gif format, here's the gfycat link if you're interested. http://gfycat.com/InfamousBleakAustraliankelpie

Edited by MuttButt

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Falcon's d-air to knee combo was the only reason i learned l-canceling in the first place. ofcourse it's really easy to learn since you just press shield every-time you land with an arial and you will pretty much get it right.

That being said i don't play melee anymore cause smash 4 is way more fun for me and i have had bad interactions with different melee community people and because of the different experiences I don't want to be part of the melee community. 

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2 hours ago, AlastairSnowpaw said:

Falcon's d-air to knee combo was the only reason i learned l-canceling in the first place. ofcourse it's really easy to learn since you just press shield every-time you land with an arial and you will pretty much get it right.

That being said i don't play melee anymore cause smash 4 is way more fun for me and i have had bad interactions with different melee community people and because of the different experiences I don't want to be part of the melee community. 

Dang, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, l-cancelling is eventually just muscle memory, most players worth their salt can l-cancel 99% of their aerials, which you should be doing all the time. I actually think it's kind of dumb, since good players will virtually always hit it every time and it might as well be so that aerials just have half their original landing lag. There'd be a lot less unnecessary button pressing that way.

Granted, if you're a legend you can actually angle your shield up to make your opponent miss an l-cancel on purpose. hitlag on shield is different from just throwing out a move or having it connect directly, so you can actually make somebody miss the timing window and punish them for it. :P

I had a conversation about melee earlier with somebody who is primarily a smash four player. They said it was a needlessly complicated game, and they're right, there's some things that are just annoyingly arbitrarily hard, but at the same time that complexity contributes enormously to the competitive depth of the game. For those of us who are passionate enough to get good at it execution wise, it really is a thing of beauty. 

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3 hours ago, MuttButt said:

Dang, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, l-cancelling is eventually just muscle memory, most players worth their salt can l-cancel 99% of their aerials, which you should be doing all the time. I actually think it's kind of dumb, since good players will virtually always hit it every time and it might as well be so that aerials just have half their original landing lag. There'd be a lot less unnecessary button pressing that way.

Granted, if you're a legend you can actually angle your shield up to make your opponent miss an l-cancel on purpose. hitlag on shield is different from just throwing out a move or having it connect directly, so you can actually make somebody miss the timing window and punish them for it. :P

I had a conversation about melee earlier with somebody who is primarily a smash four player. They said it was a needlessly complicated game, and they're right, there's some things that are just annoyingly arbitrarily hard, but at the same time that complexity contributes enormously to the competitive depth of the game. For those of us who are passionate enough to get good at it execution wise, it really is a thing of beauty. 

The only thing i would say is needlessly complicated in melee is L-canceling, but that's only because it's an arbitrary barrier that doesn't need to exist at all. I have heard that shield angling hitlag thing before but i have never seen it at any major tourney or it being a decieding factor in a punish in any match, or at least no one noticed it. So if it's not something that can even be noticed at the highest levels of play it's not something that should be seriously considered as a possible con for l-cancling.

Also I would say a lot of the "complex" techs in melee are really over stated for being harder than they actually are. Like the technical stuff in melee is easier to do than any of the technical stuff in most all fighting games. L-canceling is an arbitrary barrier but it takes like 5 minutes to learn. Wave Dashing is harder than l-canceling but it's about as difficult as a dragon punch motion in fighting games. there are also relevant characters where you don't even need to learn that stuff near as much like jiggly puff and peach.

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15 hours ago, AlastairSnowpaw said:

The only thing i would say is needlessly complicated in melee is L-canceling, but that's only because it's an arbitrary barrier that doesn't need to exist at all. I have heard that shield angling hitlag thing before but i have never seen it at any major tourney or it being a decieding factor in a punish in any match, or at least no one noticed it. So if it's not something that can even be noticed at the highest levels of play it's not something that should be seriously considered as a possible con for l-cancling.

Also I would say a lot of the "complex" techs in melee are really over stated for being harder than they actually are. Like the technical stuff in melee is easier to do than any of the technical stuff in most all fighting games. L-canceling is an arbitrary barrier but it takes like 5 minutes to learn. Wave Dashing is harder than l-canceling but it's about as difficult as a dragon punch motion in fighting games. there are also relevant characters where you don't even need to learn that stuff near as much like jiggly puff and peach.

That is true! A lot of tech in melee is extremely doable, but there is a whole world of difference between being able to spam a tech in your room and being able to execute it correctly against a strong opponent with a huge crowd screaming behind you, and thousands more watching on twitch. It's the reason that even the best players in the word still mess up invincible ledge dashes and throw out bad aerials from time to time. That, and melee is just so fast it's impossible to be perfect 100% of the time.

I would say what's more needlessly complicated are some of the basic (but vital) mechanics in melee, like back dashes and smash turns. Here's an extremely interesting and in depth article about it, it's a very hefty read, but it'll give you a pretty good idea of how incredibly precise the metagame is getting. http://www.meleeitonme.com/back-dashes-smash-turns/

Shield dropping, which is becoming increasingly vital, is also super dumb. It's very difficult to pull off reliably, and it's actually somewhat controller dependent! Certain controllers actually physically cannot shield drop reliably.

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yea though the same thing can be said about techs in fighting games as well, where you can practice it but in actual tournies with pressure it can be much harder to do.

Also i have had my time with melee and Project M but i'm not really going to put anymore time in pacticing that stuff. Also the lack of input buffering in melee is super annoying and inconvenient but that's just a thing that games that age lacked in general.

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On 1/10/2016 at 8:37 PM, AlastairSnowpaw said:

yea though the same thing can be said about techs in fighting games as well, where you can practice it but in actual tournies with pressure it can be much harder to do.

Also i have had my time with melee and Project M but i'm not really going to put anymore time in pacticing that stuff. Also the lack of input buffering in melee is super annoying and inconvenient but that's just a thing that games that age lacked in general.

I don't mind it really, granted i don't play any other FGs competitively so I have no basis for comparison. Besides, you can buffet techs, rolls, and ASDI :V

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Yea I have played some other fighting games a fair amount, the only one i went to tourneys for though was skullgirls and that is a very complicated game. Not so much for it's combos which do require practice but all the crazy split second mix-ups you have to block right or die.

That's one of the biggest reasons why smash games on technical are easier, Blocking. In smash you can never do a wrong block, you can do a block at a bad time or get punished for blocking but if you need to block and you do block, you're fine. In fighting games you have not only high and low blocks but also left and right blocks with cross ups and cross unders, not only that but block strings in fighting games are way longer than anything in smash games and you constantly have to adjust your block during the block strings.

Of all the differences between fighting games and smash Blocking i think is the biggest.

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Anyone up for some Smash this weekend? I've had nothing to do this past month, really, except practice. I'm really into Smash 4 now, for real. Just hit me up via this thread or PM or Skype or whatever

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I could try, but I dunno when a good time would be. A little busy with stuff.

 

Also... Smash Bros is rumored to be a launch title for the NX, according to a person on the internet. The hype train never stops...

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51 minutes ago, SirRob said:

I could try, but I dunno when a good time would be. A little busy with stuff.

 

Also... Smash Bros is rumored to be a launch title for the NX, according to a person on the internet. The hype train never stops...

Better have bonus features. I don't want to buy the same game 3 times.

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I mean I put as much time into the game as like 10 games, so I'm totally fine with paying again; it's worth it

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11 hours ago, SirRob said:

I mean I put as much time into the game as like 10 games, so I'm totally fine with paying again; it's worth it

Yeah, who am I kidding? I'll totally buy it again... Plus the DLC... *sigh*

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I don't know if that means the NX is going to be ready soon or that the next smash bros will be a new entry.

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2 hours ago, AlastairSnowpaw said:

Little mac is one of the hardest character to use just because his weakness can be exploited so hard

I only play Lil mac on 2 v 2, if I play 1 v 1 EVERYONE SUDDENLY BECOMES FRIENDS WITH THE EDGE OF THE STAGE

 

Thus it becomes a long game of which I don't go over to the person at all to which they end up learning "Relying on that edge made you weak in the in fighting"

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8 minutes ago, Deskai said:

I only play Lil mac on 2 v 2, if I play 1 v 1 EVERYONE SUDDENLY BECOMES FRIENDS WITH THE EDGE OF THE STAGE

 

Thus it becomes a long game of which I don't go over to the person at all to which they end up learning "Relying on that edge made you weak in the in fighting"

The offstage game in smash 4 is one of my favorite things And i love it regardless of the characters, ofcourse just waiting by the edge for the little mac is a very poor idea. though throwing little mac off tends to lead to him taking a whole bunch of damage if not just flat out dieing.

 

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The offstage game in smash 4 drives me bonkers personally. Everybody's recovery is broken except like three characters, and don't even get me started on ledge trumping D:< 

I'm probably just being a melee curmudgeon, but I think that recovering should be a skill, not a guarantee 

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8 hours ago, MuttButt said:

The offstage game in smash 4 drives me bonkers personally. Everybody's recovery is broken except like three characters, and don't even get me started on ledge trumping D:< 

I'm probably just being a melee curmudgeon, but I think that recovering should be a skill, not a guarantee 

I sort of think the opposite is true, stopping Recoveries should be a skill, not a guarantee. Going off the stage when your opponent is recovering shouldn't me death 80% of the time, with like only 3 characters who have amazing recoveries. I think it's a much worse situation where only a few characters have stupid good recoveries. Gimping in melee is just so uninteresting compared to Smash 4 for me. A lot of the time against most of the characters all it takes in melee is just hanging on the ledge and timing your get up right to stop them from recovering, which is not that interesting. In Smash 4 offstage is a battle of pressing advantage and taking risks to try and take the stock, which i find way more fun. Also yes gimping is actually a thing in smash 4 and yes you can stop recoveries, You just need to put more work into it and sometimes you will just have to settle with being in an advantage situation and taking on more damage. I find that situation way more fun.

Also since i doubt you keep up with the smash 4 meta people use ledge trumping to keep gimping someone. A lot of characters can combo a back air off a ledge trump so what people do now is wait till the person recovers and grabs the ledge, then they regrab the ledge to ledge trump them to a back air.

I also hope your not such a melee curmudgeon to realize how great of a thing it is that there is no ledge regrab invincibility.

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1 hour ago, AlastairSnowpaw said:

I sort of think the opposite is true, stopping Recoveries should be a skill, not a guarantee. Going off the stage when your opponent is recovering shouldn't me death 80% of the time, with like only 3 characters who have amazing recoveries. I think it's a much worse situation where only a few characters have stupid good recoveries. Gimping in melee is just so uninteresting compared to Smash 4 for me. A lot of the time against most of the characters all it takes in melee is just hanging on the ledge and timing your get up right to stop them from recovering, which is not that interesting. In Smash 4 offstage is a battle of pressing advantage and taking risks to try and take the stock, which i find way more fun. Also yes gimping is actually a thing in smash 4 and yes you can stop recoveries, You just need to put more work into it and sometimes you will just have to settle with being in an advantage situation and taking on more damage. I find that situation way more fun.

Also since i doubt you keep up with the smash 4 meta people use ledge trumping to keep gimping someone. A lot of characters can combo a back air off a ledge trump so what people do now is wait till the person recovers and grabs the ledge, then they regrab the ledge to ledge trump them to a back air.

I also hope your not such a melee curmudgeon to realize how great of a thing it is that there is no ledge regrab invincibility.

I dunno, this is the sort of thing that really boils down to opinion. I will say this though, it is certainly -not- guaranteed to gimp somebody in melee. There are certain situations that are guaranteed, but if a person is mixing up their recovering and DIing well and saving their double jump etc etc. a lot of times you have to make a read just to edgeguard somebody successfully. 

As for ledge regrab invincibility...I never saw the problem with that. You have to be insanely quick to make any kind of real use out of it and it's available to any player who positions and times themselves to grab the ledge at the appropriate time. Besides, I like my invincible ledgedashes and ledge hop aerials D:

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28 minutes ago, MuttButt said:

I dunno, this is the sort of thing that really boils down to opinion. I will say this though, it is certainly -not- guaranteed to gimp somebody in melee. There are certain situations that are guaranteed, but if a person is mixing up their recovering and DIing well and saving their double jump etc etc. a lot of times you have to make a read just to edgeguard somebody successfully. 

As for ledge regrab invincibility...I never saw the problem with that. You have to be insanely quick to make any kind of real use out of it and it's available to any player who positions and times themselves to grab the ledge at the appropriate time. Besides, I like my invincible ledgedashes and ledge hop aerials D:

You only have to make reads if it's some of the few characters who have good recoveries, and even there are a lot of times where those characters can't recover. But no one plays those characters so i guess thinking about them isn't important when it comes to melee, cause really there are only 8 characters and a couple dedicated poeple. people don't side-b with fox/falco SD because they think they will win and choose to not recover, they do that because they can't recover. This happens way more than I prefer.

You can still do those ledge hops and stuff but with invincible regrabs it leads to stuff like the final match in this set: 

 

 

Also by the audible booing in the background I don't think most people liked what they saw( eidt nevermind there was some booing but also some cheering). That begin said there is a much better example where regrab invincibility leads to a shitty game in a high level tourney. It was a couple years ago and it was a shiek against a fox and the shiek just keep vanish regrabbing the ledge and timed out the fox. Stuff like that is pretty rediculous and it's good smash 4 removed that stuff. Though regarbing was way more of a problem in brawl than melee.

Edited by AlastairSnowpaw

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Yes, there is certainly no camping and overly defensive play in top level smash 4, is there? :P

I said it before, but clearly this has boiled down to a matter of opinion. I seriously doubt that either of us is gonna convince the other that their game of choice is better. The bottom line is I find melee the most exciting to watch and the most fun to play, and I loathe the ledge mechanics in smash 4. It's probably one of the few things they actually got -worse- compared to brawl IMO.

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I wasn't trying to say smash 4 was better I was just trying to say that regrab invincibility was a dumb thing and it's good they got rid of it.

Also if you kept up with smash 4 meta there actually isn't much camping and defensive play. Shiek and ZSS are the two best characters and both are really aggressive.

Edited by AlastairSnowpaw

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2 minutes ago, AlastairSnowpaw said:

I wasn't trying to say smash 4 was better I was just trying to say that regrab invincibility was a dumb thing and it's good they got rid of it.

Also if you kept up with smash 4 meta there actually isn't much camping and defensive play. Shiek and ZSS are the two best characters and both are really aggressive.

I watched all of smash 4 top 8 at Genesis 3, I found it really boring for the most part.

Edited by MuttButt

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