Chaos in Cologne on New Year's Eve, refugee-crisis is escalating

[Rukh Whitefang]

Just now, Käpt'n said:

What does it cost? You become morally bankrupt. There is a reason why we don't have the death sentence. It doesn't work!

America has the death sentence. And judging by your overflowing prisons I can really tell how well it works as a deterrent against violent crimes!

Listen, Rukh... I hate your guts. I honestly do. If you are just gonna suggest that we should kill these people you can piss right off.

The death sentence for extreme violent crimes isn't moral bankruptcy. Sometimes, the death penalty is necessary. And in the case of someone who commits multiple gang rapes, violent robberies, and murders... well a couple years in prison (where you have free meals and free health care and modern amenities) isn't justice. And locking someone like that away for the rest of their life isn't always a punishment either. Depends on case to case. I do see how you completely and utterly ignored that I stated either life in prison or a death sentence for someone who commits multiple extremely violent crimes.

Show me where one of those cases that have been happening all over Europe (the gang rapes, be headings, slit throats and other violent crimes) where the perpetrator has been successfully rehabilitated.

[Saxon]

2 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

The death sentence for extreme violent crimes isn't moral bankruptcy. Sometimes, the death penalty is necessary. And in the case of someone who commits multiple gang rapes, violent robberies, and murders... well a couple years in prison (where you have free meals and free health care and modern amenities) isn't justice. And locking someone like that away for the rest of their life isn't always a punishment either. Depends on case to case. I do see how you completely and utterly ignored that I stated either life in prison or a death sentence for someone who commits multiple extremely violent crimes.

Show me where one of those cases that have been happening all over Europe (the gang rapes, be headings, slit throats and other violent crimes) where the perpetrator has been successfully rehabilitated.

Miscarriages of justice happen, so countries with the death penalty will put innocent people to death at some point. That's a big reason why torture and execution should not be permissible judicial punishments in civilised nations. 

I agree with you that indefinite sentences are appropriate for the worst crimes. 

[willow]

8 minutes ago, Käpt'n said:

That sounds horrible...
Many people are in prison because of mental issues. I believe that you should be punished for your crimes, but never for your illness!

unfortunately the mental health stigma in America is also shit

[Käpt'n]

6 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I agree with you that indefinite sentences are appropriate for the worst crimes. 

Indefinite, yes. But the death sentence should never even be considered.

I said in another thread what I think about the death penalty. And in this case it's just too much. It absolutely must be reserved for people who completely abandoned their humanity and who methodically wipe out entire groups of people or minorities. You know, like Hitler.

[Rukh Whitefang]

5 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Miscarriages of justice happen, so countries with the death penalty will put innocent people to death at some point. That's a big reason why torture and execution should not be permissible judicial punishments in civilised nations. 

I agree with you that indefinite sentences are appropriate for the worst crimes. 

Wrongful convictions do happen. Its why at least a death sentence is supposed to be a years (if not decades long) affair. Whether people agree on death sentences or not isn't the main issue with this crisis. The issue is people who because of their status (being an immigrant fleeing war torn areas) are getting light sentences or none at all. Deportation alone doesn't work because they just come back and them commit more crimes (happens in the U.S all the time). Societies that are dealing with this mass migration issue need to deal with these people who are knowingly, willingly, committing extreme violent crimes. And not with a 2-3 years sentence and community service.

[Zeke]

4 minutes ago, Rukh Whitefang said:

Wrongful convictions do happen. Its why at least a death sentence is supposed to be a years (if not decades long) affair. Whether people agree on death sentences or not isn't the main issue with this crisis. The issue is people who because of their status (being an immigrant fleeing war torn areas) are getting light sentences or none at all. Deportation alone doesn't work because they just come back and them commit more crimes (happens in the U.S all the time). Societies that are dealing with this mass migration issue need to deal with these people who are knowingly, willingly, committing extreme violent crimes. And not with a 2-3 years sentence and community service.

Except that the US Judicial system has also proven to be lazy time and time again, even after there's inconclusive evidence and that the person may be innocent  after all.

[Saxon]

2 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Except that the US Judicial system has also proven to be lazy time and time again, even after there's inconclusive evidence and that the person may be innocent  after all.

The first link has very bad spelling. 

" hghlighted "

" The jury was never heard details of  "

 

[Zeke]

3 minutes ago, Saxon said:

The first link has very bad spelling. 

" hghlighted "

" The jury was never heard details of  "

 

Send an email to the webmaster and tell them that they need to go back to grammar school. :V

 

http://www.innocenceproject.org/free-innocent/improve-the-law/fact-sheets/dna-exonerations-nationwide

[Snagged]

2 hours ago, Cingal said:

Muslims. Not even once.

I bet other believers of other religions would commit atrocities too if they came from as poor countries as Muslim countries

[Dr. Doggo]

Just now, Snagged Cub said:

I bet other believers of other religions would commit atrocities too if they came from as poor countries as Muslim countries

The Christians that inhabit Islamic countries are on the verge of being wiped out completely. With violence.

[Rassah]

59 minutes ago, willow said:

that being said wonder how many more shootings it will take for the US to realize that something needs to be legitimately done about its gun laws...

Lol what? Violent crimes have been declining in US for the last 20 years. Germany and other EU nations fucked themselves by banning guns. If those refugees were sent to, say, Texas, such an incident would never have happened. A lot of women there carry .22 caliber rape whistles, and they're REALLY LOUD. Germany seems to have taken the "let's centralize all guns" route that only restricted defense to authority, and oops, that authority got overwhelmed.

[Saxon]

4 minutes ago, Snagged Cub said:

I bet other believers of other religions would commit atrocities too if they came from as poor countries as Muslim countries

Indeed

There have been murders in India because Hindus accused people of eating beef, and there has been brutality in Burma and Sri Lanka, from the majority-Buddhist population, who cannot tolerate the presence of other religions. 

But do people really behave this way because of regional poverty? The Saudis funded the Islamic state and terror groups in Yemen, and cut people's heads off for renouncing their faith in Islam, even though Saudi Arabia is rich. 

3 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Lol what? Violent crimes have been declining in US for the last 20 years. Germany and other EU nations fucked themselves by banning guns. If those refugees were sent to, say, Texas, such an incident would never have happened. A lot of women there carry .22 caliber rape whistles, and they're REALLY LOUD. Germany seems to have taken the "let's centralize all guns" route that only restricted defense to authority, and oops, that authority got overwhelmed.

Guns are not banned in any European country; I live in England and my neighbor owns a shotgun. 

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Saxon

[Zeke]

6 minutes ago, Snagged Cub said:

I bet other believers of other religions would commit atrocities too if they came from as poor countries as Muslim countries

Many muslims in the middle east haven't had  their religious renaissance like the Protestant Christians had. Christianity's still in it's young adult phase while Islam is just that rebellious teenager that hasn't had it's hard nocks yet. 

However, in places like Africa, there are Christians persecuting others due to superstition and that can be argued due to the people themselves still remaining backwards socially. 

3 minutes ago, Saxon said:

But do people really behave this way because of regional poverty? The Saudis funded the Islamic state and terror groups in Yemen, and cut people's heads off for renouncing their faith in Islam, even though Saudi Arabia is rich. 

 

The Saudis are also backwards socially despite the riches. Not every country will be religiously or socially progressive. 

[Käpt'n]

3 minutes ago, Saxon said:

even though Saudi Arabia is rich. 

 

Yes, "rich".

Those who own the oil and the royals are rich. A quarter of the population lives below the poverty line.
Not to mention that the country is bleeding money because of the low oil prices. They want to increase taxes, which won't help those who are poor already!

[willow]

3 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Lol what? Violent crimes have been declining in US for the last 20 years. Germany and other EU nations fucked themselves by banning guns. If those refugees were sent to, say, Texas, such an incident would never have happened. A lot of women there carry .22 caliber rape whistles, and they're REALLY LOUD. Germany seems to have taken the "let's centralize all guns" route that only restricted defense to authority, and oops, that authority got overwhelmed.

thank you for missing the point...

also if the refugees came to Texas they'd probably be run out of the state or accused of being ISIS before they can even so much as look at someone the wrong way

[Saxon]

Saudi Arabia's use of judicial beheading is decreed by its super-wealthy monarchy, so that is a definitive example of nuttery from wealthy religious people. 

 

I do not think issues of religiously motivated prejudice, crime and barbarity are as simple as 'well they're poor'. 

[Rassah]

16 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Guns are not banned in any European country; I live in England and my neighbor owns a shotgun. 

But that's in England, and they're only owned by farmers. And farmer's mums. At least according to Hot Fuz

 

11 minutes ago, willow said:

also if the refugees came to Texas they'd probably be run out of the state or accused of being ISIS before they can even so much as look at someone the wrong way

I seriously doubt it. Sure, there are a couple loud mouthed yokels, and lots of far out backwards towns, but generally Texans don't care who you are, as long as you don't fuck with their stuff. The big centers are actually very socially liberal too, with the whole pro-gay, anti-racism, pro-religious freedom thing. But they're still armed.

What was your point that I missed BTW? And did you get my point that banning or restricting guns isn't actually banning them, but just centralizing them to a small group with authority, which only increases risks by creating a single point of failure, which failed in this case? Hell, in US if you're being robbed and need to call the police, it's best you also call for pizza delivery, so you'll have something to munch on while you wait for the cops to arrive

[willow]

1 minute ago, Rassah said:

What was your point that I missed BTW?

people were already looking for a reason to distrust the refugees and now that we have this big incident people are quick to say "see?? see??? they can't be trusted", Americans included, yet the same people are quick to say that guns (or any big problem in the states) aren't really the issue even though there's literal proof that something is legitimately wrong

but I was also being sarcastic

[Rassah]

Well, in this case I was saying that guns really were the issue; specifically that there apparently weren't enough of them in Cologne that night.

[Zeke]

Anti-Mulsim rhetoric is also steadily increasing in relatively liberal areas due to what's said and what the media says. As people become more and more afraid with the current trend of violence, the more people become irrational and either likely to support the anti side of the argument or become stupid enough to do something. 

[Rassah]

Yep. See! Trump does have a purpose. If it wasn't for him, we'd never have know just how racist and fascist America has become

[Zeke]

7 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Yep. See! Trump does have a purpose. If it wasn't for him, we'd never have know just how racist and fascist America has become

We really didn't need Trump for that. The anti-muslim and anti-Islam ideals existed way before Trump decided to become relevant. However, it just took a loud-mouthed asshole to take advantage of a dire situation to get the masses foaming at the mouth again after 9/11. 

[Toboe]

31 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Lol what? Violent crimes have been declining in US for the last 20 years. Germany and other EU nations fucked themselves by banning guns. If those refugees were sent to, say, Texas, such an incident would never have happened. A lot of women there carry .22 caliber rape whistles, and they're REALLY LOUD. Germany seems to have taken the "let's centralize all guns" route that only restricted defense to authority, and oops, that authority got overwhelmed.

lets see,

http://www.dps.texas.gov/crimereports/14/citCh3Add.pdf

states:

Quote

The rape rate for Texas in 2014 was 42.6 rapes for every 100,000 persons. This is an increase of 51.6 percent from 2013

looking at the graph 2013 seems to be a low point in 2004 to now, so lets use that as Texas rape rate 2004 to 2014:

Texas rape per 100k: 51.6/1.516=28.1135

Couldn't find something displaying it as nicely for germany, so lets use this (which doesn't include texas, sadly)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#Rape_statistics_by_country

according to it germanys rape rate per 100k in the time domain of 2003 to 2010 ranged from 8.8 to 10.7

So, assuming i didn't overlook different definitions of rape or stuff...

Texas: 28.1135 min

Germany: 8.8 to 10.7

... Texas minimum is double the maximum of Germany.

[Butters]

2 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Yep. See! Trump does have a purpose. If it wasn't for him, we'd never have know just how racist and fascist America has become

A lot of people are horrified by Trump, but i was so glad he finally ran for office. Because he revealed how nasty and irrational a lot of people are...and sunlight is the best medicine. 

[Rassah]

@Toboe Downward trend, not comparing total numbers. Also check the first part of that PDF, about redefinition in 2014. So, not saying you're wrong, but we also should make sure they use the same definition of that in their statistics. Plus I suspect things like Cologne, which may not be the last incident like that this year, will start skewing the numbers. It's not the overall population you have to worry about, which, yes, in Germany and most of the rest of Europe is more "safe" than in US, it's the unexpected outliers. And EU seems to be somewhat unprepared for those.

[willow]

3 minutes ago, Butters said:

A lot of people are horrified by Trump, but i was so glad he finally ran for office. Because he revealed how nasty and irrational a lot of people are...and sunlight is the best medicine. 

I'm glad Trump ran for office because while he's more than likely going to be running for president for the Republican side, I almost doubt he'll be elected. but in the off chance he does, that's also a good excuse for me to get the fuck out of America

[Zeke]

14 minutes ago, Butters said:

A lot of people are horrified by Trump, but i was so glad he finally ran for office. Because he revealed how nasty and irrational a lot of people are...and sunlight is the best medicine. 

The people who support him are hilarious.

Call them out on their shit and they scream "I am not a racist! I am a melting pot of friendshipI I am friends with the blacks, the spics, the chinks, the camel jockeys!" 

7 minutes ago, willow said:

I'm glad Trump ran for office because while he's more than likely going to be running for president for the Republican side, I almost doubt he'll be elected. but in the off chance he does, that's also a good excuse for me to get the fuck out of America

Its funny and sat at the same time. He's saying things that most of the Republican Candidates WISH they could say without getting tarnished. However, he's making a big mockery of the republican party to the point that I think he is just doing it for the lulz. If he does get elected, he'll be a perfect political scapegoat seeing that both the Democrats AND the Republicans do not like him at all and they'd probably pork barrel every beneficial law to the point that they can screw him over several times. 

[Rassah]

If he does get elected, making fun of government, the way we did when Dubuya was in charge, will certainly be easier.

And, are we all agreeing that Germany needs some Trump to help with their situation???

[Zeke]

3 minutes ago, Rassah said:

If he does get elected, making fun of government, the way we did when Dubuya was in charge, will certainly be easier.

And, are we all agreeing that Germany needs some Trump to help with their situation???

Only if you do not like Eurofurence. :V

[willow]

5 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Its funny and sat at the same time. He's saying things that most of the Republican Candidates WISH they could say without getting tarnished. However, he's making a big mockery of the republican party to the point that I think he is just doing it for the lulz. If he does get elected, he'll be a perfect political scapegoat seeing that both the Democrats AND the Republicans do not like him at all. 

aside from his outspokenness I think that the only reason he's being taken so seriously is because the rest of his opponents are even bigger jokes

[Toboe]

48 minutes ago, Rassah said:

@Toboe Downward trend, not comparing total numbers. Also check the first part of that PDF, about redefinition in 2014. So, not saying you're wrong, but we also should make sure they use the same definition of that in their statistics.

Downward trend: Comparing Texas best with Germanys worst in a recent time period. Not perfect, but i would guess the period to be recent enough for a comparison.

Not comparing total numbers: Comparing total numbers would give Texas a strong advantage due to its lower population size (~27mil vs ~80mil). Or to use an extreme example: Using total numbers would make a society of 100 rapists commiting 100 rapes seem more safe than a society of 10,000 mostly normal people with 101 rapes.

Definition: Yeah, that I am not 100% sure about.

Quote

"Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

The other source: This table indicates the number of, and per capita cases of recorded rape by country.

Which i assume means the German legal def would be used, which is (according to wiki, cutting the punishment and special cases (like in a group or using weapons) that increase punishment):

Quote

1) Whosoever coerces another person

1. by force;

2. by threat of imminent danger to life or limb; or

3. by exploiting a situation in which the victim is unprotected and at the mercy of the offender,

to suffer sexual acts by the offender or a third person on their own person or to engage actively in sexual activity with the offender or a third person,

Which leads to interpreting legalese...

48 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Plus I suspect things like Cologne, which may not be the last incident like that this year, will start skewing the numbers. It's not the overall population you have to worry about, which, yes, in Germany and most of the rest of Europe is more "safe" than in US, it's the unexpected outliers. And EU seems to be somewhat unprepared for those.

Future changes remain to be seen.

Any incident is one too many, but worry about outliers and not general pop? Reducing outliers is good, but if doing so you increase risk to general and double(!) the overall that seems counterproductive.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Toboe
Fix'd typo, it it body part or object ofcourse, not "boy part of object"

[Saxon]

" with any boy part of object "

 

Somebody goofed. 

[Rassah]

Letting people defend themselves, especially when the government has failed to, shouldn't be counterproductive or increase risks to the population. The risks are already there. I wonder if sales of pepper spray have gone up around Germany recently, or if that is strictly regulated too?

Incidentally, I wonder, when you are having run-of-the-mill normal sex in Germany, where you are strapped into a leather harness, being whipped by a riding crop, and forced to do unspeakable things while your body is forced to accommodate improbably sized objects... And you forget your safe word... Is that considered rape there?

[Saxon]

1 minute ago, Rassah said:

Letting people defend themselves, especially when the government has failed to, shouldn't be counterproductive or increase risks to the population. The risks are already there. I wonder if sales of pepper spray have gone up around Germany recently, or if that is strictly regulated too?

Incidentally, I wonder, when you are having run-of-the-mill normal sex in Germany, where you are strapped into a leather harness, being whipped by a riding crop, and forced to do unspeakable things while your body is forced to accommodate improbably sized objects... And you forget your safe word... Is that considered rape there?

It doesn't matter so much if somebody gets pepper sprayed by accident, and nobody's going to rob a bank or kill a police officer with pepper spray, so obviously regulation surrounding pepper spray is going to be more relaxed than that surrounding firearms. 

Can you imagine if people made this sort of argument about everything else? B'awwww there should be no firework regulations at all because I can already burn down a forest with a match!

[willow]

4 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Incidentally, I wonder, when you are having run-of-the-mill normal sex in Germany, where you are strapped into a leather harness, being whipped by a riding crop, and forced to do unspeakable things while your body is forced to accommodate improbably sized objects... And you forget your safe word... Is that considered rape there?

if you forget your safe word but you say "stop" and your partner fails to do so, yes it can then be considered rape or assault because the sex is no longer consensual

Germans are kinky but they still have common sense :v

Edited January 9, 2016 by willow

[Saxon]

Just now, willow said:

if you forget your safe word but you say "stop" and your partner fails to do so, yes it can then be considered rape or assault because the sex is no longer consensual

...isn't the whole point of a safeword so you can yell 'stop, stop' in a roleplay, without your partner stopping? 

[Rassah]

3 minutes ago, Saxon said:

It doesn't matter so much if somebody gets pepper sprayed by accident, and nobody's going to rob a bank or kill a police officer with pepper spray, so obviously regulation surrounding pepper spray is going to be more relaxed than that surrounding firearms. 

Can you imagine if people made this sort of argument about everything else? B'awwww there should be no firework regulations at all because I can already burn down a forest with a match!

FYI, pepper spray is heavily regulated in parts of the US. Because "Weapons bad! Just use police, you stupid cowboy!" There are even tips online for using "legal and unregulated" wasp spray on the Internets... Which just sounds way more awful.

So I'm wondering if it's even legal to own and carry in Germany.

3 minutes ago, willow said:

if you forget your safe word but you say "stop" and your partner fails to do so, yes it can then be considered rape or assault because the sex is no longer consensual

That's not how safe words work...

Edited January 9, 2016 by Rassah

[Saxon]

Just now, Rassah said:

FYI, pepper spray is heavily regulated in parts of the US. Because "Weapons bad! Just use police, you stupid cowboy!"

So I'm wondering if it's even legal to own and carry in Germany.

That's not how safe words work...

I looked it up. In Germany anybody can carry pepper spray if it is for protection against animals. Spray can be used against humans in self defense, but deliberately taking spray to protests is prohibited. You need to be 14 to own a spray intended for people. 

 

By contrast, in the UK, it's entirely illegal to own pepper spray, which surprised me. This is technically because 'firearms of whatever description, that spray noxious fluid' are prohibited and pepper spray is classed under those. 

 

In the USA I can only find it forbidden for under 18's in some states, or only legal when sold through licensed arms dealers, the spray weighs under a certain value and the buyer has no felonies. 

[Toboe]

8 minutes ago, Saxon said:

" with any boy part of object "

 

Somebody goofed. 

Must have mistyped when quoting the PDF, opps.

But hey, that could be a Freudian typo! The parts you put into a woman are your boy parts and it doesn't matter which object they are part of (i.e. yours, a dildo...)!

 

8 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Letting people defend themselves, especially when the government has failed to, shouldn't be counterproductive or increase risks to the population. The risks are already there.

It introduces further problems disarming criminals and problems with erroneous judgement of someone "defending themselves".

9 minutes ago, Rassah said:

 I wonder if sales of pepper spray have gone up around Germany recently, or if that is strictly regulated too?

Afaik there is no problem with owning pepperspray for use against wild animals, and if you have that and need to defend yourself against a human, that is not your fault...

 

[Rassah]

3 minutes ago, Toboe said:

It introduces further problems disarming criminals and problems with erroneous judgement of someone "defending themselves".

Well... That's actually true... It is much easier to judge who is the victim when someone was raped, mugged, or killed, than trying to figure out how to judge the situation when someone defended themselves and a crime was possibly prevented.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Rassah

[Käpt'n]

4 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I looked it up. In Germany anybody can carry pepper spray if it is for protection against animals. Spray can be used against humans in self defense, but deliberately taking spray to protests is prohibited. You need to be 14 to own a spray intended for people. 

Yup, it's legal. In fact, since the salafists had their demonstration and since I noticed how many of them actually live here I carry pepper spray with me at all times.

[Zeke]

There are a lot of measures in the event you do use pepper spray on another human being. Using a knife? not so much.

[willow]

1 minute ago, Saxon said:

...isn't the whole point of a safeword so you can yell 'stop, stop' in a roleplay, without your partner stopping? 

 

Just now, Rassah said:

That's not how safe words work...

if you forget the safeword but you utter some form of the word "no" or "stop" or even "I forgot the safeword" in a tone that implies you aren't enjoying yourself anymore, that still works..

again, common sense

[Saxon]

I think you're presenting a false dichotomy, Rassah. 

Germans have achieved an overall lower rate of gun violence, and indeed any violence, than many other countries over recent decades.

This is being jeopardised because some newcomers are exploiting their relatively civil environment, which is not used to en-masse molestation, for example. 

The proliferation of arms among German citizens could improve this problem, but it could also mean more assaults with firearms occur. Germans have to think carefully about how to solve this new problem. 

 

if you forget the safeword but you utter some form of the word "no" or "stop" or even "I forgot the safeword" in a tone that implies you aren't enjoying yourself anymore, that still works..

again, common sense

 

...then why bother having a safe word? 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Saxon

[Toboe]

3 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Well... That's actually true... It is much easier to judge who is the victim when someone was raped, mugged, or killed, than trying to figure out how to judge the situation when someone defended themselves and a crime was possibly prevented.

possibly prevented.

Possibly someone innocent killed by someone panicking.

[Barnectomy]

29 minutes ago, Saxon said:

" with any boy part of object "

Mmmm

[Rassah]

But that's kinda my point, in that Germans got used to how things are, disarmed for their current situation, and found themselves completely unprepared when the situation changed. Situations always inevitably change.

Look at Switzerland. They haven't been invaded for over a century, and they still train and arm every citizen. Not because they are under threat of invasion, but because doing that keeps anyone from even trying. Like I said, if those refugees found themselves in some place like Austin, that would have never happened, because they'd probably be too afraid of getting gunned down for even attempting it.

P.S. I like possibly prevented more than certainly happened

[willow]

2 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Look at Switzerland. They haven't been invaded for over a century, and they still train and arm every citizen.

this isn't entirely true. the only people who have loaded firearms are the police and the military and while civilians are armed, I don't think they can buy ammunition. Austria is the same way too unless you go to Uni.

[Toboe]

2 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Like I said, if those refugees found themselves in some place like Austin, that would have never happened, because they'd probably be too afraid of getting gunned down for even attempting it.

Oooor they would have grabbed and disarmed the victim or raped at gunpoint.

Crime seems to find a way in Texas, too.

4 minutes ago, Rassah said:

P.S. I like possibly prevented more than certainly happened

Your certain death has possibly prevented you commiting a crime! (Sure, you didn't plan doing anything, there is no reason to assume you'd do anything, but theoretically you could have! )

[Rassah]

1 minute ago, willow said:

this isn't entirely true. the only people who have loaded firearms are the police and the military and while civilians are armed, I don't think they can buy ammunition. Austria is the same way too unless you go to Uni.

Yes, that's correct. But they were spared invasion precisely because other militaries knew every Swiss citizen has a gun and is a potential soldier to watch out for.