Community Vote: Public Ban Appeals Subforum

[willow]

3 hours ago, Vae said:

While this is fair, we've also had issues with the actions taken by "majority vote" from the mod pool before on serious actions (like Zara's permaban).

While I do not feel like the mods are incapable of coming to conclusions on their own, people are also limited by the scope of their perspective.
Which is why it pays in some regard to have a lot more opinions to take information from (like the community at large) for serious issues.

It also creates an environment to shelter off these staff vs user conflicts, instead of them popping up in like... any thread the mods make after a controversial decision takes place.
Besides just fostering fairness, this is also good for the people that want to continue the discussion of the thread itself, but don't want to get caught up in the ban drama, or scroll through it for pages on end.
It provides a place where staff and users alike can go "Take it here, bruh. We're talking about the porn rules right now," while simultaneously not coming across as shitty censorship practices where users cannot talk about these things publicly at all.

And this wasn't solely a response to Willow's post. I'm just throwing more of my general opinion out there.
 

that's understandable and a valid point. the only real concern I have about this being the decision of the mods + the community is that it has a potential to be more about airing your own personal grievances and less about trying to come to a decision. granted we'd eventually come to some sort of agreement but not without having to wade through a lot of passive aggressive commentary and shitposting to do so. especially when a handful of people kind of disagree with any authoritative action period or wanna play devil's advocate.

and honestly, that doesn't seem fair to the actual people involved

[Endless/Nameless]

We could hold everything in until Festivus and have a big AIRING OF GRIEVANCES thread. Could be a grand ol' time. 

[Vae]

22 minutes ago, willow said:

that's understandable and a valid point. the only real concern I have about this being the decision of the mods + the community is that it has a potential to be more about airing your own personal grievances and less about trying to come to a decision. granted we'd eventually come to some sort of agreement but not without having to wade through a lot of passive aggressive commentary and shitposting to do so. especially when a handful of people kind of disagree with any authoritative action period or wanna play devil's advocate.

and honestly, that doesn't seem fair to the actual people involved

While this is true, I feel like this is where it becomes a bit necessary for the staff involved in either these decisions, or that section specifically, to have a bit of a "bullshit filter."
Grievances can still carry valid information, after all. You just have to dig for it below the surface level of "I HATE YOU. YOU ARE LITERALLY DRAGONEER. BANMODS2K16."

Whether this means taking on more staff, or staff observing their own reactions to things, or what have you, I don't particularly know.

But the outrage is going to happen, regardless. That's just how people act when you take away their toys.
I just feel it helps both those people and the community at large to keep it organized into its own little space, instead of bleeding out on every available surface.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Vae

[#00Buck]

Personally I thought the Kenny Rogers Roasters episode was the best one. 

[FlynnCoyote]

Ideally a forum's staff should not have to explain themselves to its membership. Unfortunately I think too many of us remember the current staff members and their past on faf for such a policy to work here. For that I vote yes. Transparency is needed.

[Wrecker]

I voted yes for a very good reason...

More shit to read. :D

[TheGreatFanatic]

Can I vote myself, or..?

[Cingal]

Nothing wrong with transparency.

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

I posted hot men with bulges, I got infracted, can I appeal?

[willow]

3 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

I posted hot men with bulges, I got infracted, can I appeal?

.....sure?

[#00Buck]

3 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

I posted hot men with bulges, I got infracted, can I appeal?

Vote yes on the poll and I'll volunteer for jury duty. 

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

Well most of my infractions are well earned, though as this forum's rank 1 sex offender, I need the NSFW rule better expounded, 

Example: If two men lustfully kiss each other (no visible private parts) does that count as NSFW? 

I may be derailing but I need this clarified. 

[willow]

5 minutes ago, Mikazuki Marazhu said:

Well most of my infractions are well earned, though as this forum's rank 1 sex offender, I need the NSFW rule better expounded, 

Example: If two men lustfully kiss each other (no visible private parts) does that count as NSFW? 

I may be derailing but I need this clarified. 

It's suggestive but not really NSFW, so maybe it'd be better to just put it under a spoiler warning and label it NSFW?

here's what the recent SotU has on NSFW content:

Quote

For clarification on the current rules on PAF, most of what the NSFW rule’s for is embedding images or video content that contains explicit images or media (i.e. Pornographic videos). We already know that there’s a few threads posted here with what constitutes NSFW content and we will try to alter it a bit without being too prudish or too liberal.

We understand that users will make jests about sexual content in the fandom, outside of the fandom, etc. We’re (most of us) are all adults.  All that we ask is use your better judgement and do not go above Rated R for the most part and tag your threads containing content not suitable for work NSFW so people have some warning beforehand. That includes threads with videos, images (Hotlinked), etc.

Additionally, we know that many users are open about their own personal sexual experiences and while we do not want to discourage discussion, we simply ask that all discussion of this nature not become too explicit.

 

[Yarra]

How about a public ban" wall of shame" so we know who's jammed up?  Although it might encourage bad behavior.  I don't care, I like the offensive posts.  Keep 'em coming.  

 

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

6 minutes ago, Yarra said:

How about a public ban" wall of shame" so we know who's jammed up?  Although it might encourage bad behavior.  I don't care, I like the offensive posts.  Keep 'em coming.  

 

Yarra plis...

Tink of teh children

[#00Buck]

7 minutes ago, Yarra said:

How about a public ban" wall of shame" so we know who's jammed up?  Although it might encourage bad behavior.  I don't care, I like the offensive posts.  Keep 'em coming.  

 

I've seen that on other forums but only for permanent bans. 

[Kellan Meig'h]

You know, I think this thread seems to say; "We don't trust the Moderation Team to do their job properly."

I'm an Admin on several furry boards and believe me, it's not something you take lightly when you drop the PermaBan hammer on a member. The member is usually asked to back off a bit several times and the issue is discussed between Mods/Admins. Sometimes a thread is locked and a temp ban is issued. A PermaBan is only a last resort, when some member thinks they run the board and the rules don't apply to them.

so far I haven't observed unjust moderation or bans on this board. One the posters in this thread said that their ban was just and deserving.

If you're not comfortable with the current Moderation team, say so. A public forum to try to overturn a ban that was probably just in happening is just a place for excess drama to be aired to the public. I don't see that as a viable option.

Sorry for the rant.

[Endless/Nameless]

1 hour ago, Kellan Meig'h said:

You know, I think this thread seems to say; "We don't trust the Moderation Team to do their job properly."

I'm an Admin on several furry boards and believe me, it's not something you take lightly when you drop the PermaBan hammer on a member. The member is usually asked to back off a bit several times and the issue is discussed between Mods/Admins. Sometimes a thread is locked and a temp ban is issued. A PermaBan is only a last resort, when some member thinks they run the board and the rules don't apply to them.

so far I haven't observed unjust moderation or bans on this board. One the posters in this thread said that their ban was just and deserving.

If you're not comfortable with the current Moderation team, say so. A public forum to try to overturn a ban that was probably just in happening is just a place for excess drama to be aired to the public. I don't see that as a viable option.

Sorry for the rant.

Why should we put all our trust in mere humans? If I were a mod I wouldn't expect implicit trust. Nobody infallible, so we should keep each other accountable. I know a majority vote and all is required for mods to take serious action, but that's not always going to filter everything. (COUGHunitedstatesHACKcongressCOUGJGHGH)

It's not a personal thing, I like our mods. But I also know they're capable of bad judgement sometimes, like all of us. And eventually they'll leave office, and who knows what sort of assfaces might replace them?

Preventative action. 

And as far as the drama? Get over it, because either way it's gonna come eventually like a purifying fire. 

[FlynnCoyote]

On 15/3/2016 at 3:43 PM, Kellan Meig'h said:

You know, I think this thread seems to say; "We don't trust the Moderation Team to do their job properly."

Yes. Pretty much.

[Kellan Meig'h]

You know, I'll say this; Y'all don't seem to think much of the Moderation Team here. So why is it y'all still hang out here? You can always vote with your feet. This isn't the only furry board out there in Cyber-land. It's probably the only one that allows so much sh!t-posting and all y'all should be happy with that.

Y'all know the TOS or you should have read the TOS at some point in time. If you violated it, got warned, did it again, maybe in the same thread, knowing the ban-hammer will drop, you should expect to be banned. A public forum like you're suggesting is just a way to shame the Mod that banned you into letting you back in to continue violating the TOS.

Banning a member is not something done by one Mod. That ban has been looked at and discussed by the Moderation Team. There should be nothing personal about a ban so that's why there is a team.

Come on, what do all y'all really want? An unmoderated board full of spam and shit-posts? Bless your hearts.

Gah . . .

[#00Buck]

What is wrong with trying to improve things? 

[Vae]

On 3/15/2016 at 10:43 PM, Kellan Meig'h said:

You know, I think this thread seems to say; "We don't trust the Moderation Team to do their job properly."

I'm an Admin on several furry boards and believe me, it's not something you take lightly when you drop the PermaBan hammer on a member. The member is usually asked to back off a bit several times and the issue is discussed between Mods/Admins. Sometimes a thread is locked and a temp ban is issued. A PermaBan is only a last resort, when some member thinks they run the board and the rules don't apply to them.

so far I haven't observed unjust moderation or bans on this board. One the posters in this thread said that their ban was just and deserving.

If you're not comfortable with the current Moderation team, say so. A public forum to try to overturn a ban that was probably just in happening is just a place for excess drama to be aired to the public. I don't see that as a viable option.

Sorry for the rant.

 

35 minutes ago, Kellan Meig'h said:

You know, I'll say this; Y'all don't seem to think much of the Moderation Team here. So why is it y'all still hang out here? You can always vote with your feet. This isn't the only furry board out there in Cyber-land. It's probably the only one that allows so much sh!t-posting and all y'all should be happy with that.

Y'all know the TOS or you should have read the TOS at some point in time. If you violated it, got warned, did it again, maybe in the same thread, knowing the ban-hammer will drop, you should expect to be banned. A public forum like you're suggesting is just a way to shame the Mod that banned you into letting you back in to continue violating the TOS.

Banning a member is not something done by one Mod. That ban has been looked at and discussed by the Moderation Team. There should be nothing personal about a ban so that's why there is a team.

Come on, what do all y'all really want? An unmoderated board full of spam and shit-posts? Bless your hearts.

Gah . . .

Mods are not infallible. Their judgement is not infallible and unquestionable. They are people. Even reasonable people have "off" days and can act irrationally.
I have no reasons to distrust the current staff, but that does not mean that they can't fuck up, out of stress, emotional kneejerk, laziness, or otherwise.

If you haven't witnessed unfair moderation here, you either haven't been looking hard enough, or haven't been here long enough. Hell, one staff member already got de-modded because of their actions. Something that followed numerous complaints about their heavy-handed and overly strict trigger finger, for a casual, rather small internet community like this one. An approach that was completely inappropriate. An approach that current staff is still reversing the damage from.

And before that even, we had to deal with Dragoneer and Chase wiping posts and banning people for so much as questioning them on the old forums.

Needless to say, Phoenix's / FAF's history with site authority isn't the best. Given that history, it's completely understandable that people are goddamned wary of shitty moderation.
Which is why current staff has been doing all they can to be as transparent as possible, and that's a good thing.


Also, I really shouldn't have to explain why people would want to choose to improve something they enjoy, instead of leaving in a huff and saying nothing,
so I'm not going to.
This should be common sense.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Vae

[Kellan Meig'h]

36 minutes ago, 6tails said:

The southern refuge for when you can't give a truly logical thought or rebuttal.

It's not a refuge. I guess y'all would have to be Southern to truly understand but I will take your comment under advisement.

[#00Buck]

The attitude that you either except the forums as they are or leave is ridiculous. 

If people simply accept things as they are then there will never be any positive change in their lives. 

Personal, professional, or social improvement are admirable things. 

I will not leave if I have the chance to help improve things for everyone.

Nothing has even been changed yet. This is a discussion and vote. 

Don't act like the only choices are apathy or exodus. 

The third choice is improvement and it is the best and most noble path. 

[ArielMT]

On 3/15/2016 at 10:43 PM, Kellan Meig'h said:

You know, I think this thread seems to say; "We don't trust the Moderation Team to do their job properly."

Not by default, and not blindly.  As essential as trust is for a healthy community relationship, in the power dynamic between users and moderators, the trust by users in mods must be earned, not taken as if it was a kind of tax or toll.  Blind trust of mods by users leads to moderation mistakes (no matter how innocent) being uncorrected and tolerated by the mods collectively, which leads to power abuse and corruption, or at least the perception of such.  A system of transparency by and accountability for the more powerful group of that dynamic is among the most powerful tools available for earning and keeping that trust.

I'm not sure whether it would work or not, but the reason why a public ban appeals subforum is even being considered is because it can serve as a component of accountability.  It is a recognition by the mods that no one and no group is perfect and infallible, even when acting carefully on a serious, well-debated decision.  It is a recognition that mistakes can and will be made (ideally next to never, but realistically who knows) and a tool to reverse the damage from any mistakes that do end up being made.

[Terminal7]

I feel that this question should only be answered when the time comes. 

Neutral,  okay?