Terminal7 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 1 hour ago, AlexInsane said: If a robot can do the work of a cashier, it can CERTAINLY do the work of a CEO or an investor. The human experience will be moot. I only pray that before I die I get to meet Motoko Kusanagi IRL. I don't think that they're gonna get replaced (if that's what you're poking at). We still have some unwritten codes of morality and an economy based on the knowledge and labor of human beings. Other than that, dream on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 1 hour ago, Jerry said: For now this system still sorta works because it relies on the workforce to properly function. But artificial intelligence has been making tremendous progress over the last years. And the predictions sound rather scary. 1/3 of jobs gone in 10 years, half of them in 20, etc. If given the choice, companies won't even think about it a split-second. A robot is cheaper, they'll kick out the employee right away! This can't end well. We're about to open a Pandora box with AI. I think the predictions are totally wrong and sensationalist. We used to have scored of people in huge offices doing things like architectural and engineering plotting and design, scores of accountants keeping books, artists and designers drawing on paper, factory workers assembling everything by hand... Computers came out and replaced what used to take a team of a few dozen people with one guy in front of a PC, or scores of factory workers with automated machines. But, we still have tons of jobs, and computers only created tons of new jobs we haven't even imagined before. I think that, just like pocket calculators have made us all math geniuses, and smartphones have made us all human encyclopedias, geographers, and other general knowledge experts, rather than completely replacing us, AI will just become a tool we use to augment and improve our own thinking. So, not only will know how some architectural engineering structure has to be calculated out to make sure it can resist stress forces (know the math formulas by looking them up), but we'll know how to optimally design such a structure (AI will tell us the best configurations for whatever looks we ask for). I think for a very very long time, the creative side will still be provided by us. And by the time AI can do both thinking and creativity, you may no longer be able to distinguish AI from human anyway. Oh, also, from economics standpoint, keep in mind that if AI is doing things to replace humans, it means that the task has become much cheaper, done by AI than by a human. That means many more things we consider expensive or luxuries will become much much cheaper (as they have for other technological progress). So, even though more people will be out of work, you'll need way less work to still afford things. That $3 hburger may become a $0.30 hamburger, once all the administrative overhead, like accounting, management, supply chaining, and business strategy is replaced with effectively free computers. So, even if we do end up with high unemployment, it will likely be because we don't need to work as much to survive and have an even better quality of life than we have now. Used to be we all had to do hard labor 6am to 7pm just to survive. Now we dick around on keyboards or retail stores and restaurants, while living in what is comparably castles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 11 hours ago, AshleyAshes said: Because Rassah thinks that there's someone on this forum who won't know this... Wrecker didn't. That's why I said that. Keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Rassah said: Wrecker didn't. That's why I said that. Keep up. how many people do you think are being serious about you just being an offhand cab driver because if the answer is higher than 0 we've got a problem you know what, i'll be sympathetic and say 1. have you at any point thought that many people think your only job is a cab driver and that the ∞ + mentions of your career have not yet resonated with the listeners Edited December 21, 2015 by evan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecker Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (vote rassah trump for president, he'll even drive you to the election in his pukemobile) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) 15 minutes ago, evan said: how many people do you think are being serious about you just being an offhand cab driver because if the answer is higher than 0 we've got a problem At least two or three people think (or thought) I'm just a cab driver, since the other thread pretty much devolved into people "calling me out on my bs" that I had money and was just driving to pay for a hobby. They were pointing to my Uber driving and car sleeping as evidence that I'm actually broke, and just making shit up about being wealthy or retired. From there it devolved into "calling out my BS" that I was actually in some fancy vacation in Aruba, as if I was just making that up to prove I'm not a poor cabbie who sleeps in my car, until I posted pictures of me there. And from there it just devolved into the toilet, with same people claiming that no, they were actually just talking about Jeeps supposedly not being able to drive in Aruba because they saw the topography on Google Earth, people changing up pictures to make fun, and other crap. If they believed me, but we're just poking fun, sorry, that didn't come thorough in text on a screen. Edited December 21, 2015 by Rassah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Rassah said: At least two or three people think (or thought) I'm just a cab driver, since the other thread pretty much devolved into people "calling me out on my bs" that I had money and was just driving to pay for a hobby. i am almost positive you have been taking bait this entire time i'm starting to also think that perhaps you should just check to make sure you are aware of the sarcasm/trolling/shitposting that exists here because based on what you've said it's more that you've been taking the piss on every statement joke or otherwise and trying to argue with it to which this might not be the place for you, if this train disaster of a thread hasn't suggested it already you know, maybe i'm just more perceptive of tone if you think that it was the format that killed the joke ("that doesn't come through in text"), or maybe i just like to make unusual conclusions about people, but i do think you should really just sit down and realize what's happening here before you continue Edited December 21, 2015 by evan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecker Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 2 minutes ago, Rassah said: At least two or three people think (or thought) I'm just a cab driver, since the other thread pretty much devolved into people "calling me out on my bs" that I had money and was just driving to pay for a hobby. They were pointing to my Uber driving and car sleeping as evidence that I'm actually broke, and just making shit up about being wealthy or retired. From there it devolved into "calling out my BS" that I was actually in some fancy vacation in Aruba, as if I was just making that up to prove I'm not a poor cabbie who sleeps in my car, until I posted pictures of me there. And from there it just devolved into the toilet, with same people claiming that no, they were actually just talking about Jeeps supposedly not being able to drive in Aruba because they saw the topography on Google Earth, people changing up pictures to make fun, and other crap. If they believed me, but we're just poking fun, sorry, that didn't come thorough in text on a screen. listen, rassah, nobody here gives a fuck if you have money or you're broke. there's a simple fact, and that's that you paint yourself as some snobby better-than-everybody asshole. you could have some fucking stupid private island and a yacht with "RASSAH" painted right across it, but you're only go-to is how god-damned successful you are - nobody fucking cares. you're a person that makes text with an avatar and a post count, you're just a fucking joe here... i, personally have my own doubts about your own fame and fortune, and if you're so supposedly wealthy then all the better to you, but you're missing the fucking point. i honestly wish you all the best. but come on, i'm sure everybody here has some kind of thing they could tirelessly flaunt every time they get an opportunity, but they don't. they know better. this forum, for the record, used to be FAF, you were there. it's not a gong show, it's a bunch of furries and people that like to smash furries in one humble household. just, figure it out for fuck's sakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexInsane Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Rassah, it's okay, we get it. You're sad because you can't buy a bigger dick, but you can buy someone else's dick which is bigger than your own, because you have money and a guy named Phil with a hacksaw and a loose grasp of reality. Nobody judges you for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clove Darkwave Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 11 hours ago, #00Buck said: You can always tell the broke people by how communist they are. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 9 minutes ago, evan said: you know, maybe i'm just more perceptive of tone if you think that it was the format that killed the joke ("that doesn't come through in text"), or maybe i just like to make unusual conclusions about people, but i do think you should really just sit down and realize what's happening here before you continue You are more perceptive. And I have sort of realized it. I'm pretty much ignoring their shit now. Didn't know if wrecker wasn't up to speed, but I guess he was. Will just ignore him too. Honestly, considering all the posts here and FAF about moaping and bitching about money and sucky lives, the hate at 1% and "capitalist oppressors," political debates about guns and economics, and the on/off interest about buttcoin, I figured I, being a 1%er, capitalist, anarchist, bitcoiner might be an interesting addition to this forum (vain, I know), either to ask for help and advice, or flame for being the enemy, or just to debate shit. I'm honestly fine with either. But, if people are getting frustrated or pissed off at me... Good? They're not people I like anyway. But hey, I'm learning about not feeding the trolls. Albeit slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecker Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 4 minutes ago, Rassah said: You are more perceptive. And I have sort of realized it. I'm pretty much ignoring their shit now. Didn't know if wrecker wasn't up to speed, but I guess he was. Will just ignore him too. Honestly, considering all the posts here and FAF about moaping and bitching about money and sucky lives, the hate at 1% and "capitalist oppressors," political debates about guns and economics, and the on/off interest about buttcoin, I figured I, being a 1%er, capitalist, anarchist, bitcoiner might be an interesting addition to this forum (vain, I know), either to ask for help and advice, or flame for being the enemy, or just to debate shit. I'm honestly fine with either. But, if people are getting frustrated or pissed off at me... Good? They're not people I like anyway. But hey, I'm learning about not feeding the trolls. Albeit slowly. the trolls are full there bud, there's not a lot more to take. but yeah, i'm some poor bastard that doesn't know fuck all. it just amazes me you're going this fucking far on a furry forum. this isn't an interview with the financial times, for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 7 minutes ago, Rassah said: But, if people are getting frustrated or pissed off at me... Good? They're not people I like anyway. maybe i'm reading this incorrectly but are you saying that you are taking time out of your life to make people who you dislike, decide to dislike you 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 4 minutes ago, evan said: maybe i'm reading this incorrectly but are you saying that you are taking time out of your life to make people who you dislike, decide to dislike you Nah, just wasting time on entertaining myself, and if *some* people get bitchy or frustrated, that's their issue. I usually don't try to piss people off on purpose. It's not nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexInsane Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I rather think, Rassah, the reason we despise you so heartily is because normal people don't have high opinions of themselves, while you do. But having a high opinion of yourself is, well, quite the least of your problems - you sound damn near sociopathic, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) 36 minutes ago, AlexInsane said: I rather think, Rassah, the reason we despise you so heartily is because normal people don't have high opinions of themselves, while you do. Yeah... And I wish normal people did have higher opinions of themselves. Maybe if they had better self esteem and didn't feel like failures every time they stumbled in life, especially while others are cutting them down and making fun of them for it, then maybe normal people would be a bit more successful in life too. Misery does love company, though, and jealousy is a hell of a thing. Quote you sound damn near sociopathic, really. I am! Screw the poors and all that, right? Edited December 21, 2015 by Rassah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pignog Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 i could flaunt my sickass Final fantrasy 6 save file where i revived general leo, but i choose not to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) there's a difference between resolving self esteem with self consideration, and then there's willing complacency in the safety of your own opinion you don't seem to acknowledge this and as a result i think you'll only continue to fail to realize why entire groups can come to hate you you don't have to be hated, nor do you have to strive for acceptance but there's a reason you acknowledged me as more perceptive. i think this is it if you manage to do things right, opinions can be much more immaterial than attitudes, and you could actually manage to understand what causes dissent in the first place. i frankly don't think you understand why dissent happens and just want to dismiss it blindly and entirely on the other person, which is frankly never going to result in the same kind of person disliking you i could be depressed and listening to you or depressed and staring at a blank wall and honestly at this point in time i'm going to take the wall Edited December 21, 2015 by evan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 21 minutes ago, evan said: i could be depressed and listening to you or depressed and staring at a blank wall and honestly at this point in time i'm going to take the wall Why are you depressed? Please don't be depressed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlynnCoyote Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 2 hours ago, AlexInsane said: I rather think, Rassah, the reason we despise you so heartily is because normal people don't have high opinions of themselves, while you do. But having a high opinion of yourself is, well, quite the least of your problems - you sound damn near sociopathic, really. For the record, this is not the case for me. I had no prior interaction with Rassah before Phoenix. The moment he lost my respect was when he advocated Darwinism in regards to children rather than Education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyAshes Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 5 hours ago, Rassah said: Yeah... And I wish normal people did have higher opinions of themselves. Maybe if they had better self esteem and didn't feel like failures every time they stumbled in life, especially while others are cutting them down and making fun of them for it, then maybe normal people would be a bit more successful in life too. On 12/16/2015 at 6:20 PM, Rassah said: Pastry, it's not that no one can or can't help you, it's that no one wants to. Hey, I just thought it'd be super if both these quotes were put in the same post together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastryOfApathy Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 6 hours ago, Rassah said: You are more perceptive. And I have sort of realized it. I'm pretty much ignoring their shit now. Didn't know if wrecker wasn't up to speed, but I guess he was. Will just ignore him too. Honestly, considering all the posts here and FAF about moaping and bitching about money and sucky lives, the hate at 1% and "capitalist oppressors," political debates about guns and economics, and the on/off interest about buttcoin, I figured I, being a 1%er, capitalist, anarchist, bitcoiner might be an interesting addition to this forum (vain, I know), either to ask for help and advice, or flame for being the enemy, or just to debate shit. I'm honestly fine with either. But, if people are getting frustrated or pissed off at me... Good? They're not people I like anyway. But hey, I'm learning about not feeding the trolls. Albeit slowly. Alright, let's take your views out of this then. Let's list all the reasons people hate you, divorced from any ideological conflicts. >You're an unbelievably narcissistic and elitist twat >You immediately treat anyone who doesn't share your views as condescendingly as possible and act as though the only reason they don't agree with you is because they're simply uneducated or stupid >Whenever you feel like you're being ganged up on, you then bring up how you're like totes rich and successful or something and because of that you're above all of us...while continuing to post here knowing we all hate you for OVER A FUCKING YEAR >You seriously think we're dumb enough to believe you've been coming here to learn how to deal with "meanie cyber bullies :((((" You also wanna know why all you see is "bitching and moping" and we apparently all have "sucky" lives? Because we're regular fucking people who do what regular fucking people when they're surrounded by a community of people they like and trust enough to vent about their problems. How about you? Do you have friends or people close enough to you to confide in when life isn't as perfect as you're stupid enough to try and make us believe? Does everyone in your real life hate you so fucking much that we're somehow the closest thing you have to 'friends'? Is that why you're still here like an abused puppy who keeps coming back everytime its beaten by its owner? Is that why you spend so much fucking time willingly talking to people you even admit you hate? Unlike you I won't pretend I know everything about your life, but whatever the specifics are it has to be pretty goddamn pathetic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 45 minutes ago, PastryOfApathy said: Alright, let's take your views out of this then. Let's list all the reasons people hate you, divorced from any ideological conflicts. >You're an unbelievably narcissistic and elitist twat >You immediately treat anyone who doesn't share your views as condescendingly as possible and act as though the only reason they don't agree with you is because they're simply uneducated or stupid >Whenever you feel like you're being ganged up on, you then bring up how you're like totes rich and successful or something and because of that you're above all of us...while continuing to post here knowing we all hate you for OVER A FUCKING YEAR >You seriously think we're dumb enough to believe you've been coming here to learn how to deal with "meanie cyber bullies :((((" You also wanna know why all you see is "bitching and moping" and we apparently all have "sucky" lives? Because we're regular fucking people who do what regular fucking people when they're surrounded by a community of people they like and trust enough to vent about their problems. How about you? Do you have friends or people close enough to you to confide in when life isn't as perfect as you're stupid enough to try and make us believe? Does everyone in your real life hate you so fucking much that we're somehow the closest thing you have to 'friends'? Is that why you're still here like an abused puppy who keeps coming back everytime its beaten by its owner? Is that why you spend so much fucking time willingly talking to people you even admit you hate? Unlike you I won't pretend I know everything about your life, but whatever the specifics are it has to be pretty goddamn pathetic. I can't think of a single person on the forum that likes him. Why stick around when nobody likes you? Why make yourself totally un-likable? Strange behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pignog Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 for the record rassah i dont hate you and feel only love in my heart. when the revolution comes i hope youll join us in seizing the means of production. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BIvqbyku5g&t=02m03s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half-Note Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I am sensing some tension between the representatives of the right-wing and the radical left-wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pignog Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 23 minutes ago, Half-Note said: I am sensing some tension between the representatives of the right-wing and the radical left-wing. this thread is just a microcosm for the current struggle in world systems theory (except both sides think they're the egalitarian one and the other will usher in 1000 years of darkness) http://www.theory-talks.org/2008/08/theory-talk-13.html Quote My analysis of the modern world-system argues that we are in a structural crisis, that the system is in fact unable to survive, and that the world is in a chaotic situation, which we will be in for twenty to forty years to come. This crisis has to do with the lack of sufficient surplus-value available and thus with the possible profit one can make. The system is bifurcating – referring to a situation in which there are two alternative ways of getting out of the present crisis in order to create a new, stable, world-system. The most important current struggle is that between the two hypothetical alternative routes the world will actually choose. It’s very difficult to define very narrowly these two directions, but basically there will be people trying to create a new world-system which will replicate certain basic features of the existing system but not be a capitalist system. It would still be hierarchical and exploitative. The other direction would be to create an alternative system that is relatively democratic and relatively egalitarian. These are all very vague terms because one can’t define in advance the structural details of such a future world-system. But obviously one solution would be from my point of view a better world-system, and the other would be at least as bad as or perhaps worse than the world-system we presently have. So it’s a real political struggle. Again, it’s intrinsically impossible to predict what the outcome will be; the only thing we can be sure of is that the present system won’t survive and that some outcome will occur. We shall create, in the famous phrase of Ilya Prigogine, order out of chaos. That’s my basic theoretical position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half-Note Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 6 minutes ago, Pignog said: this thread is just a microcosm for the current struggle in world systems theory (except both sides think they're the egalitarian one and the other will usher in 1000 years of darkness) http://www.theory-talks.org/2008/08/theory-talk-13.html You're sounding a bit like Alex Jones there. >.> I'm having a hard time deciding wether or not to take what you posted seriously. :0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pignog Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 those are the best posts 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal7 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 1 hour ago, #00Buck said: I can't think of a single person on the forum that likes him. Why stick around when nobody likes you? Why make yourself totally un-likable? Strange behaviour. Maybe because everyone else is neutral about it Or superiority complex - which I think you guys are pointing at for the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizy Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) Edited December 22, 2015 by Kaizy 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 22 hours ago, FlynnCoyote said: For the record, this is not the case for me. I had no prior interaction with Rassah before Phoenix. The moment he lost my respect was when he advocated Darwinism in regards to children rather than Education. I advocated that kids be given the freedom to learn and explore at their own pace, learning the subjects that they have interest in, allowing their creativity and curiosity flourish unrestricted, instead of being forced to learn boring subjects in some strict abusive environment, and punished or drugged up when they get too bored or too fed up. That's Darwinism? 15 hours ago, Pignog said: this thread is just a microcosm for the current struggle in world systems theory (except both sides think they're the egalitarian one and the other will usher in 1000 years of darkness) http://www.theory-talks.org/2008/08/theory-talk-13.html One system depends on people being able to take other people's stuff by force. One does not. We are moving more and more towards the world where taking by force is impossible. If taxes aren't possible in such a world, how would democracy enforce its decisions without money to pay the enforcers? Or social programs provide services without money to pay for those? Or, conversely, exploitative corporations pay to enforce regulations that give them an upper hand, or allow them to rape natural resources without consequences? Overall, people just don't like having things they've made or work for being taken away by someone else, so, in the long run, there is always an incentive for them to figure out how to stop it from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 6 minutes ago, Rassah said: That's Darwinism? he's referring to a competitive emphasis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 2 minutes ago, evan said: he's referring to a competitive emphasis Oh... I guess since people are different, I prefer people to explore and develop their differences, even if it means some people get way ahead of others simply for being more intelligent or talented, instead of forcefully keeping everyone at about the same level... There's another issue that has nothing to do with that, which is the kid's family's social and financial status determining whether the school they go to is good or crap, with well off kids gettimg the best education while the worst off kids get schools so bad majority of them never even graduate, which is the system we have now, and seems to be that way no matter what we do with public schools, but I want to improve that by making it so that everyone can get access to equal education and information, regardless of their background. I guess the difference between my preference and those of some others is that I want a fair and equal playing field, where kids can succeed and advance entirely on their own merit, which would allow smarter and more creative kids to get ahead, and others prever a playing field that advantages some kids and disadvantages others, in order to keep their level of success about even regardless of how smart they are or how much effort they put in, with them considering the equal outcome to be fair in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 and it's been debated before whether that would actually be possible if the entire school systematology were competitive. the thing that needs to be realized is that there is an implied competition in schools already and it's part of the problem and it is part of the reason that divide exists. i really am tired of having this discussion because i feel like you want several things that are conflicting and don't have a basis in what the institution needs in order to be functional. if you want to suggest that, i don't want your philosophy. all teachers have them. it's the institution of them that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) All I want at the core of all my beliefs is simply for people to not be forced, coerced, defrauded, or killed. That's is. Everything I believe, want, and work towards stems entirely from that. I'm actually very simple to figure out. If you ask, "Would Rassah be in support of this person or group doing that?" just check if the action of that group forces someone else to do something against their will, or lies to them to get them to do something they otherwise would not have, or leads to them being killed. If that's a "yes" anywhere in there, I'm against it. That's it. This is really all that "anarchy" is. So there's nothing that I want that's conflicting. If I claimed something that seems to conflict, maybe I missed a case where someone is getting forced or defrauded without me realizing it? Edited December 22, 2015 by Rassah 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Hah! On the thread's topic: Science, capitalism, and rich people http://nyti.ms/1YsHscp And it's from one of my favorite libertarians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecker Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Straws for sale, dime a piece. Here's mine, it's almost like they cut you short on purpose Rassah. <3 U Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 can't read nytimes, already used up my 10 free articles and i'm saying that an institution is more complex than the morals of a person. your philosophy behaves under a moralistic paradigm, which is all well and fine, but the whole principle of education and the idea of providing a egalitarian form of it requires principles of grounded objectivity, or in other words thinking about a deeper reasoning for why these things happen beyond the morals of it. "no one should be forced to do something" on some level any and all people in an educational system meet a point of "force" or inability to decide their own purpose, but generally that's because there's a greater purpose at work that cannot be satisfied on an individualistic level. we can't apply your philosophy to education effectively because it doesn't assess what we're doing to affect the students on an intellectual level; perhaps on an environmental/societal level but that idea of simplicity actually still leaves a lot of unsolved variables. which just leads to further problems; we want to change the system, but we have to be thorough and attentive in doing so. small changes are massive in an institution made up of thousands upon thousands of individuals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyAshes Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 5 hours ago, Rassah said: Hah! On the thread's topic: Science, capitalism, and rich people http://nyti.ms/1YsHscp And it's from one of my favorite libertarians 45% of the Falcon 9's development was funded by the American tax payers through NASA budgets... Is your point here that libertarians are dependent on government welfare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexInsane Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 On 12/10/2015 at 11:06 AM, Pignog said: go easy on em, look how sad they are about taxes!! If I were making their income, I sure as hell wouldn't be sad about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 rich people arent really smiling even when they are ,its just a dog showing its teeth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 9 hours ago, evan said: can't read nytimes, already used up my 10 free articles The NYT article was about Elon Musk's (a RICH PEOPLE libertarian who confounded PayPal to try to replace fiat currency, like what bitcoin was eventually made for, until government regulated PayPal into the crap it is now, whereupon Elon and Thiel quit the company in disgust) SpaceX program (a capitalist venture to try to bring space travel to the masses, after it was completely monopolized by NASA for half a century) landed a rocket back to earth after sending it to space (Science!!! And something they accomplished in a decade, which NASA couldn't do in all its time. Don't forget that "space age" and space shuttles are 1960's technology). Just happy to see rich libertarians using their love of capitalism to advance our species. 9 hours ago, evan said: and i'm saying that an institution is more complex than the morals of a person. your philosophy behaves under a moralistic paradigm, which is all well and fine, but the whole principle of education and the idea of providing a egalitarian form of it requires principles of grounded objectivity, or in other words thinking about a deeper reasoning for why these things happen beyond the morals of it. I have been, and much of the why it's happening doesn't make much sense to me. Especially with the way things are run there. If I look at any component of how schools are run and kids are disciplined, objectively it doesn't make sense. 9 hours ago, evan said: "no one should be forced to do something" on some level any and all people in an educational system meet a point of "force" or inability to decide their own purpose I don't understand how simply being undecided about something is force. The force I'm talking about is being forced to go to school, forced to take subjects, forced to sit at a desk for an hour, forced to be quiet and pay attention, forced to recite and memorize things, forced to not challenge the teacher on anything, forced to behave and dress a certain way, forced not to say certain things the school may find objectionable, forced to only be in certain places, and sometimes forced to get from place to place walking single file. We basically spend 12 years beating into our kids to be submissive little servants. 9 hours ago, evan said: but generally that's because there's a greater purpose at work that cannot be satisfied on an individualistic level. I don't think "for the greater good" is a valid moral or objective defense (have you seen Hot Fuz?) 9 hours ago, evan said: we can't apply your philosophy to education effectively because it doesn't assess what we're doing to affect the students on an intellectual level Why do you claim that? 9 hours ago, evan said: we want to change the system, but we have to be thorough and attentive in doing so. small changes are massive in an institution made up of thousands upon thousands of individuals. I have mentioned competition numerous times already. I don't advocate that we change the entire system uniformly, I said I would like to allow some institutions to change if they want to to try new things, or even better, have new private institutions pop up to challenge the established ones. In the worst case scenario, they will fail, and the established ones will be proven right. In the best case scenario, a better system will emerge, and everyone will benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalletFace Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Rassah said: The NYT article was about Elon Musk's (a RICH PEOPLE libertarian who confounded PayPal to try to replace fiat currency, like what bitcoin was eventually made for, until government regulated PayPal into the crap it is now, whereupon Elon and Thiel quit the company in disgust) SpaceX program (a capitalist venture to try to bring space travel to the masses, after it was completely monopolized by NASA for half a century) landed a rocket back to earth after sending it to space (Science!!! And something they accomplished in a decade, which NASA couldn't do in all its time. Don't forget that "space age" and space shuttles are 1960's technology). It has nothing to do with NASA not being able to do it; NASA has never cared to try. Since the space race really kicked off, NASA has cared less about what it can do with its launchers than what it can do with the payloads. The only major exception is the Saturn V launch vehicle and its predecessors. In addition, the capitalist venture - despite nearly 1/2 of the first decade of funding for most of their projects coming from NASA contracts - of SpaceX does not plan to bring space travel to the masses. Its literal goal is to establish a private colony on Mars. There is no way to reasonably compare the process of a company that started before networked computers were manageable and a company that started little over a decade ago, though. There is no point, especially considering they are both doing amazing things at the moment. Edited December 22, 2015 by MalletFace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pignog Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 1 hour ago, AlexInsane said: If I were making their income, I sure as hell wouldn't be sad about anything. b-b-but that tax increase means I can't buy my third yacht. obama!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 31 minutes ago, MalletFace said: It has nothing to do with NASA not being able to do it; NASA has never cared to try The Space Shuttle and the slew of experimental vehicles that preceeded followed suggests otherwise. NASA was experimenting with scramjets for the idea of accelerating vehicles and getting them into high altitude, where only a little rocket fuel is needed to get them the rest of the way into orbit, and then bring them back down, just s couple of years ago. 31 minutes ago, MalletFace said: In addition, the capitalist venture - despite nearly 1/2 of the first decade of funding for most of their projects coming from NASA contracts Not capitalism because services it sells voluntarily in the open market are bought by government people too? 31 minutes ago, MalletFace said: - of SpaceX does not plan to bring space travel to the masses. Its literal goal is to establish a private colony on Mars. Private = masses. It's not a "private" colony in a sense that only Elon and his friends are allowed to come. And while figuring out how to make space travel to another planet affordable enough, they'll bring down the costs of space travel in general. Except, unlike NASA, they'll let anyone with money use it. 31 minutes ago, MalletFace said: There is no way to reasonably compare the process of a company that started before networked computers were manageable and a company that started little over a decade ago, though. You can if you look at what drives them and what consequences they have. NASA was driven by scientific exploration, but really it was driven by individual accomplishments, petty infighting, getting bigger budgets, and comparing who has the biggest dick, as all bureaucracies are. At the same time, they had a monopoly on space exploration, no legal competition, and a fairly secure paycheck. SpaceX is driven by scientific exploration, but also by competition, trying to outdo NASA and other space companies and agencies, and have very real consequences of not earning enough money from bad performance, which forces them to cut out inefficiencies and bureaucracies. I have no doubt that NASA and SpaceX can reach the same goals diven enough time. But the process by which the two strive to achieve those goals are entirely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 11 minutes ago, Pignog said: b-b-but that tax increase means I can't buy my third yacht. obama!!! Are those in US dollars? Where'd you find that picture? On this topic, my parents make something like $250,000 combined, but a large chunk of that income is from rental properties, which should go back to pay for the mortgage payments on those properties. So, after all the expenses, they barely have any money left (mom typically cooks food from scratch, they can't afford to buy new clothing, etc. I'm giving them a toaster for Christmas, because theirs has a broken latch on the sring, but they don't have the money to "splurge" on a new one). During Obama's term, taxes were changed to where they now have to pay more, despite technically not earning a lot (after property payments and expenses are taken out), and they can't deduct the mortgage interest because they earn "too much." So they've had to cut down on spending even more, and are considering getting rid of those properties. So all that Obama's taxes may have accomplished in this case is people who had high enough credit score and trustworthiness to be able to acquire and maintain houses for others to live in, end up being forced to kick people out on the street and abandon their properties. And I'm sure my parents aren't the only ones in that situation. Aren't socialist unforseen consequences great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyAshes Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Uhh, NASA didn't build the space shuttle. Boeing did. So did Lockheed and other companies who won the government contracts with their proposals. Meanwhile, SpaceX is using government money to try and win a 1.6 billion dollar government freight contract. Someone tell me how this is new and revolutionary action by the private sector? Or even different from the 50s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 In the first case a monopoly is hiring others to build stuff only for itself, and restricts others from building this stuff for themselves or anyone else. In the second case, a competing business is building stuff for anyone, including the organization that used to be a monopoly, and is not restricting others from trying to do the same. Fairly straightforward, no? If you still don't get it, the first one is the phone monopoly (Bell) allowing others to build hardware and telephones for them, but restricting anyone else from using that equipment or building their own phone networks. And the second is an internet company building stuff for anyone to use, including the old ex-monopoly phone companies, and not restricting other Internet companies from doing the same. Which one had better, faster technological progress? Telephone monopolies, or open and competitive internet? SpaceX and Virgin Galactic, among other private space companies, are the internet to NASA's Bell Labs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyfish Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Are y'all still arguing with Rassah? Guys, it's human nature to want to justify stomping on the crotches of others for one's own success. Rassah isn't a monster, he's just like every other disgusting human~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pignog Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 23 minutes ago, Rassah said: Are those in US dollars? Where'd you find that picture? On this topic, my parents make something like $250,000 combined, but a large chunk of that income is from rental properties, which should go back to pay for the mortgage payments on those properties. So, after all the expenses, they barely have any money left (mom typically cooks food from scratch, they can't afford to buy new clothing, etc. I'm giving them a toaster for Christmas, because theirs has a broken latch on the sring, but they don't have the money to "splurge" on a new one). During Obama's term, taxes were changed to where they now have to pay more, despite technically not earning a lot (after property payments and expenses are taken out), and they can't deduct the mortgage interest because they earn "too much." So they've had to cut down on spending even more, and are considering getting rid of those properties. So all that Obama's taxes may have accomplished in this case is people who had high enough credit score and trustworthiness to be able to acquire and maintain houses for others to live in, end up being forced to kick people out on the street and abandon their properties. And I'm sure my parents aren't the only ones in that situation. Aren't socialist unforseen consequences great? it was run in the wall street journal a few years ago iirc also obama isn't a socialist by a long shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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