Gamedog Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Get a life, BIN THAT KNIFE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazerMaster5 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 And here I say treat firearms like automobiles. Have shooters ed which will teach gun safety and proper handling, and have a written exam and a physical exam to show you are capable of owning a gun. Then legalize all firearms, with different courses for more powerful firearms like assault rifles and machine guns. GUN PROBLEM LESSENED CHECKM8 DRUMPF CHECKM8 SHILLARY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I guess if you learn how to design, 3D print, and assemble a gun yourself, that would be enough education on how to handle and care for one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Rassah said: I guess if you learn how to design, 3D print, and assemble a gun yourself, that would be enough education on how to handle and care for one? Probably not. Someone always knows more than you, you know? Then again, people being able to make more and more of their own stuff cuts out the middle men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 23 minutes ago, Rassah said: I guess if you learn how to design, 3D print, and assemble a gun yourself, that would be enough education on how to handle and care for one? Except that the type of 3d printer you need for a reliable gun isn't accessible to many because it costs half a million, with the second cheapest at 8K. Plus, stupid people will try to print a gun out in PLA on an ultimaker or lulzbot only for it to backfire. The "Liberator" (As an example) isn't as reliable of a gun as many people praise it to be. It has a high chance of misfire, and it can only fire one round at a time. Meaning, if you miss, you have to reload it. Still enough to do damage to a person, but it can potentially hurt you. Also, if you screw up on the printer calibrations, (imbalanced plate, nozzle too far, too hot, warping, etc), you can increase the risk of damage to yourself. 21 minutes ago, Lemon said: Probably not. Someone always knows more than you, you know? Then again, people being able to make more and more of their own stuff cuts out the middle men. It wouldn't be. Plus, 3d printed guns aren't 100% reliable. You are better off buying a handgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WileyWarWeasel Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 7 hours ago, Rassah said: ALL your gun control arguments are invalid Meh, they just copied the design from a bolter: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastryOfApathy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Rassah said: I guess if you learn how to design, 3D print, and assemble a gun yourself, that would be enough education on how to handle and care for one? lol any retard can follow a literal wikihow guide lmao 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor-933 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Just now, PastryOfApathy said: lol any retard can follow a literal wikihow guide lmao Moreover, 3D printing guns is really just a gimmick. You can make single-shot weapons like a four winds shotgun for under $10 out of completely innocuous plumbing supplies from any hardware store. Even ammo isn't necessarily required -- I bet if you took a spud gun and stuck a plastic cup full of gravel in it, it'd work passably as a shotgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlynnCoyote Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 The only real solution is education, and it's a long term solution. Everyone wants the quick fix but there really isn't one short of nuking your whole shit country and starting over. We need to weed out the gun propaganda gradually, so that people buy guns out of practical necessity rather than some mentality of "must own gun." Training and licenses should also be mandatory. It's mandatory for cars and such, and those things aren't even designed to kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evan Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 sometimes when i feel like i need to brush up on a topic, i just want to print out some of your posts and cross reference them with reliable sources 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Doggo Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Also look up the Sten gun. This is a submachine gun of a simple design that could be built cheaply and relatively easily with little more than an ordinary metal workshop. It was invented by the British in WW2 after the US joined the war, where demand increased for automatic weapons and they had to fulfil it in a short time. Civilians volunteered to build them in their own neighborhoods early on. The schematics and supplies were also airdropped for French resistance cells to obtain, to give them an easily concealable automatic weapon that used the same ammunition as the Germans (9mm Parabellum) that they would build in their basements before performing drive-bys and other ambushes. Around 4 million of these were produced, without fancy modern tools and machines, and a number of those were built discreetly. The Nazi occupation of France is another example of gun control not working, as it only empowers the bad guys. 7 hours ago, LazerMaster5 said: If I want to get a gun and go target shooting, am I still a liberal? I mean, I don't hate gays or Hispanics, and I am not a religious person, so I wouldn't fit in very well with the GOP. Then again, people associate liberals with SJW culture and wanting to ban guns. HALP GUYS >subscribing to the two-party system 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastryOfApathy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 3 hours ago, FlynnCoyote said: The only real solution is education, and it's a long term solution. Everyone wants the quick fix but there really isn't one short of nuking your whole shit country and starting over. We need to weed out the gun propaganda gradually, so that people buy guns out of practical necessity rather than some mentality of "must own gun." Training and licenses should also be mandatory. It's mandatory for cars and such, and those things aren't even designed to kill. What if I just want to target shoot because it's fun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlynnCoyote Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, PastryOfApathy said: What if I just want to target shoot because it's fun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastryOfApathy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Just now, FlynnCoyote said: Have you ever fired a real gun before? Like ever in your life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlynnCoyote Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 minute ago, PastryOfApathy said: Have you ever fired a real gun before? Like ever in your life? No. Only air rifles plugging pigeons on my grandparents' farm when I was a kid. I don't see the fascination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastryOfApathy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Just now, FlynnCoyote said: No. Only air rifles plugging pigeons on my grandparents' farm when I was a kid. I don't see the fascination. I kinda figured as much. But the point I'm trying to make is that there's a world of difference between some shitty wal-mart BB gun and actual honest-to-god rifle. Like I'm not some kind of gun expert (not by a long shot), but I really don't need to be to figure that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlynnCoyote Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 minute ago, PastryOfApathy said: I kinda figured as much. But the point I'm trying to make is that there's a world of difference between some shitty wal-mart BB gun and actual honest-to-god rifle. Like I'm not some kind of gun expert (not by a long shot), but I really don't need to be to figure that much. Shooting as a sport is typically done in facilities well equipped to store these weapons, correct? That's the arrangement as it exists in Australia, one of my housemates owns a rifle and goes to the shooting range to target shoot once or twice a month. It's not that I couldn't fire a gun if I wanted to, I just genuinely have no interest in guns. That might be a foreign concept to an american so sorry if that confused anybody. Now, for a counter point. If target shooting is all you want to own a gun for, then why can't the same arrangement be had over there? If your military grade semi automatic assault rifle is something you only bought as a hobby, then it's better off being stored in a secure safe in a secure facility than under your bed or hanging in your living room or in some hardware store locker in your garage or wherever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastryOfApathy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, FlynnCoyote said: Shooting as a sport is typically done in facilities well equipped to store these weapons, correct? That's the arrangement as it exists in Australia, one of my housemates owns a rifle and goes to the shooting range to target shoot once or twice a month. It's not that I couldn't fire a gun if I wanted to, I just genuinely have no interest in guns. That might be a foreign concept to an american so sorry if that confused anybody. No need to be all passive-aggressive buddy boy. 10 minutes ago, FlynnCoyote said: Now, for a counter point. If target shooting is all you want to own a gun for, then why can't the same arrangement be had over there? If your military grade semi automatic assault rifle is something you only bought as a hobby, then it's better off being stored in a secure safe in a secure facility than under your bed or hanging in your living room or in some hardware store locker in your garage or wherever. What the hell is the point in buying something is I can't actually use it how I want? You know seeing as how I'm not a complete psychopath. What if I want to go out in a field or some old farmland in the middle of nowhere and shoot some beer cans for shits n' giggles? Who is to say I'm not responsible enough to properly store my hypothetical firearms? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlynnCoyote Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, PastryOfApathy said: No need to be all passive-aggressive buddy boy. My cynicism gets the better of me at times. 6 minutes ago, PastryOfApathy said: What the hell is the point in buying something is I can't actually use it how I want? You know seeing as how I'm not a complete psychopath. What if I want to go out in a field or some old farmland in the middle of nowhere and shoot some beer cans for shits n' giggles? Who is to say I'm not responsible enough to properly store my hypothetical firearms? But we only have your word that you're always going to be responsible. Not everyone knows their friend is a closet psychopath before the tragedy happens do they? Should we just trust everyone? Rest assured I don't actually care what you do, you're at least an ocean away. Shoot all the cans you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastryOfApathy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, FlynnCoyote said: Rest assured I don't actually care what you do, you're at least an ocean away. Shoot all the cans you want. lol i haven't shot a gun since I was like 10 lmao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlynnCoyote Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I'm glad we had this conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazerMaster5 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 And here I want a shotgun that fires bacon cheeseburgers. The most patriotic of firearms. MURRICA! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Y'all are clueless. It isn't a lack of training or a license that caused all those people to die. It was an Islamic terrorist. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 10 hours ago, Zeke said: Except that the type of 3d printer you need for a reliable gun isn't accessible to many because it costs half a million, with the second cheapest at 8K. Plus, stupid people will try to print a gun out in PLA on an ultimaker or lulzbot only for it to backfire. The "Liberator" (As an example) isn't as reliable of a gun as many people praise it to be. It has a high chance of misfire, and it can only fire one round at a time. Meaning, if you miss, you have to reload it. Still enough to do damage to a person, but it can potentially hurt you. Also, if you screw up on the printer calibrations, (imbalanced plate, nozzle too far, too hot, warping, etc), you can increase the risk of damage to yourself. It wouldn't be. Plus, 3d printed guns aren't 100% reliable. You are better off buying a handgun. In reference to printed weapons, perhaps the would not be able to assemble something that is a high quality weapon on a cheap printer but there is high possibility that makeshift untraceable weapons can be made on one, much like weapons in prison which can be made out of nothing but plastic or duct tape. And who isn't to say that criminal organizations won't acquire the high tier printers and start making droves of these things and flooding a black market with them? What are they gonna do with all that drug money anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 10 hours ago, WileyWarWeasel said: Meh, they just copied the design from a bolter: And it jammed. Lol 20 minutes ago, Azure said: In reference to printed weapons, perhaps the would not be able to assemble something that is a high quality weapon on a cheap printer but there is high possibility that makeshift untraceable weapons can be made on one, much like weapons in prison which can be made out of nothing but plastic or duct tape. And who isn't to say that criminal organizations won't acquire the high tier printers and start making droves of these things and flooding a black market with them? What are they gonna do with all that drug money anyway? All they have to do is drop 8k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derin Darkpaw Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 23 hours ago, Zaraphayx said: Your language didn't cause any misunderstandings. You have an inferior command of the facts when it comes to the context in which one firearm could be considered a more effective instrument than another firearm, but you want to prescribe a solution to the gun control "problem" that appears to be well-reasoned and moderate in order to distract from the fact that you hold gun owners in such contempt that you believe yourself better equipped than they to decide what is and isn't appropriate for their use, while not even possessing a basic understanding of the objects which you are advocating be regulated. One I never made any statements in regards to which specific firearms consumers should have limited access too. I fully recognize that I am not educated enough about the specifications of different firearms in order to make those judgements. However the fact that I do not know specifically which firearms should be limited in no way invalidates arguments for gun control. I don't think any particular understanding regarding the specifications of various guns is necessary in order to make a statement that some guns are more effective at killing large groups of people then others. Secondly I do not know where you get this idea that I hold gun owners in contempt. I never made any disparaging comments about gun owners nor have I referred to you or any one else in this thread in a derogatory fashion. If I truly believed that I was better equipped than gun owners to decide what is appropriate I wouldn't be here in this thread right now talking to gun owners and attempting to get input from them about what would and would not be acceptable. What I personally want is effective and efficient regulation, whatever form that may take, that helps to prevent mass shooting incidents within the United States and I don't think we should take the idea of limited consumer access to certain guns completely off the table based solely on ideological grounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 15 hours ago, Zeke said: Except that the type of 3d printer you need for a reliable gun isn't accessible to many because it costs half a million, with the second cheapest at 8K. Plus, stupid people will try to print a gun out in PLA on an ultimaker or lulzbot only for it to backfire. You must've missed this video link These guns are printed with plain home ABS plastic printers (same stuff Legos are made of) with brake line pipe for the barrel, which anyone can get at any auto store or Home Depot. Seems to work fine. Also this gun is from last year, only a year after the Liberator came out. Design improvements are progressing rapidly in this space. This would be the result of any situation where guns are made too difficult or impossible to buy. 6 hours ago, Saxon said: Forbidding people on terror watch lists from buying firearms, as has been suggested across America's political spectrum could avoid some massacres. Terrible 1984 style idea. Government lists are a terrible idea in general. My family was on one or two back in USSR. These lists are arbitrary, anyone can be put on it without due process, it's extremely difficult to get of it, and they are ripe for abuse. Even active US Senators have accidentally gotten on them. Back when George W Bush was president, these lists were heavily protested as being appalling breaches of democracy and freedom. How soon people forget... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Doggo Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Rassah said: My family was on one or two back in USSR. Damn man, what did they put 'em on for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, Sir Gibby said: Damn man, what did they put 'em on for? Royalty wasn't popular in Russia after the 1917 revolution. Especially when the parents of the person were all lined against a wall and shot in their own house (I'm a Count) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Realistically, if you could get the NRA's lobbying of congress to stop that'd be an easy way to pass common sense legislation. But America is so deeply corrupt, it'll take a while. Meanwhile, the corpses will just pile ever higher. It's an embarrassment really. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 19 minutes ago, Butters said: Realistically, if you could get the NRA's lobbying of congress to stop that'd be an easy way to pass common sense legislation. But America is so deeply corrupt, it'll take a while. Meanwhile, the corpses will just pile ever higher. It's an embarrassment really. "Common sense" is just common, not necessarily with sense. A lot of proposed legislation has no sense. In the mean time, fewer and fewer people will continue to die every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Rassah said: You must've missed this video link These guns are printed with plain home ABS plastic printers (same stuff Legos are made of) with brake line pipe for the barrel, which anyone can get at any auto store or Home Depot. Seems to work fine. Also this gun is from last year, only a year after the Liberator came out. Design improvements are progressing rapidly in this space. This would be the result of any situation where guns are made too difficult or impossible to buy. I am highly familiar with that and I saw the video before. It jammed after firing one round. All printers are able to print ABS/PETG filaments, so anyone can buy a lulzbot, flash forge, Ultimaker, or makerbot to print it. Getting it to reliably work without backfiring or jamming, which I had stated before, is another matter altogether. Just because you can print one doesn't mean it is a reliable replacement for an actual firearm. There's a 75-80% failure rate with many 3d printed firearms to either backfire due to improper calibrations, not the right infill and layer adjustments, or have a mechanical problem like jamming. In a situation where you are going to need it would make a 3d printed gun printed on a common printer useless and more likely for a person to either get injured or killed by an assailant with a knife or genuine firearm. If you wanted to print a "reliable" firearm, the liberator would suffice. However, you can only fire one round before needing to reload. The failure rate is about 60% on a common printer like a makerbot. Less on a professional grade with the right adjustments and right material. Yes, I am familiar with 3d printed guns and 3d printers. I work with them every day and process about 300 files per month for the general public. Yes, I have seen the guns, I have files for two, and no I will not share them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor-933 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 54 minutes ago, Butters said: Realistically, if you could get the NRA's lobbying of congress to stop that'd be an easy way to pass common sense legislation. But America is so deeply corrupt, it'll take a while. Meanwhile, the corpses will just pile ever higher. It's an embarrassment really. Meanwhile, Michael Bloomberg himself routinely outspends the NRA, influencing local elections or lobbying, and his shell groups and allies outspend the NRA and its allies by 400% or more. https://ballotpedia.org/John_Morse_recall,_Colorado_State_Senate_(2013)#Recall_opponents https://ballotpedia.org/Angela_Giron_recall,_Colorado_State_Senate_(2013)#Recall_opponents https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2014/04/16/bloomberg-aims-to-spend-50-million-on-gun-control/ (n.b. this $50m is twice the entire budget of the NRA's direct lobbying arm, the part you're bitching about) https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_Universal_Background_Checks_for_Gun_Purchases,_Initiative_594_(2014) (Bloomberg's Everytown sent in $862K vs. the NRA's $457K) But I guess it's only wrong with traditionally Republican interest groups do it. Meanwhile, the Democrats will keep taking pages out of the pro-lifer playbook and pushing their abstinence-only policy towards guns, and use frivolous regulations to force gun stores out of business. 19 minutes ago, Saxon said: I think accidental executions are a worth while price in order to deter crime. See how fucked up you sound? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Ironically, the NRA used to be for gun control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Saxon said: Not being able to buy a firearm isn't comparable to judicial murder. The NRA and Donald Trump both agree that people on Terror watch lists should be forbidden from buying firearms. Some Republican and Democrat politicians think that this violates due process, but I think they're confronted with a problem which requires a pragmatic solution. They currently find themselves standing on principal while massacres continue to occur, so I think they should ask themselves what those principals are proving good for. Admittedly, I am in agreement with anyone being on that list should be forbidden to buy firearms of any kind. However, it will not stop anyone on that list from straw purchasing a firearm in a state that doesn't require a background check or registering it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor-933 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 39 minutes ago, Zeke said: Admittedly, I am in agreement with anyone being on that list should be forbidden to buy firearms of any kind. However, it will not stop anyone on that list from straw purchasing a firearm in a state that doesn't require a background check or registering it. uh Background checks on gun purchases from licensed dealers have been federal law for twenty years now. This includes guns bought from licensed dealers at gun shows, which comprise the majority of transactions there. The alternative is a face-to-face sale between a buyer and a non-licensed seller, and it's still federally illegal for that seller to complete a transaction with someone they know or believe to be a felon or prohibited person. Registration is on a state by state basis because existing federal law prohibits the creation of a national registry. Fun fact: both of these points are a result of the 1993 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, which also provided for the creation of the NICS system. Another fun fact: NICS cannot be used by the public except for by federally licensed firearms dealers (FFLs). There's been several attempts to address this but Democrats keep shooting them down. 54 minutes ago, Saxon said: Not being able to buy a firearm isn't comparable to judicial murder. The NRA and Donald Trump both agree that people on Terror watch lists should be forbidden from buying firearms. Some Republican and Democrat politicians think that this violates due process, but I think they're confronted with a problem which requires a pragmatic solution. They currently find themselves standing on principal while massacres continue to occur, so I think they should ask themselves what those principals are proving good for. Your country throws people in prison for saying mean words on Twitter, Saxon. Of fucking course you don't value things like due process and human rights, and would rather trade everyone else's freedom for a little perceived safety. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Victor-933 said: uh Background checks on gun purchases from licensed dealers have been federal law for twenty years now. This includes guns bought from licensed dealers at gun shows, which comprise the majority of transactions there. The alternative is a face-to-face sale between a buyer and a non-licensed seller, and it's still federally illegal for that seller to complete a transaction with someone they know or believe to be a felon or prohibited person. Registration is on a state by state basis because existing federal law prohibits the creation of a national registry. Fun fact: both of these points are a result of the 1993 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, which also provided for the creation of the NICS system. Yet, it didn't stop the Columbine massacre 6 years later, and they used proxies to buy their guns from a friend and at a gun show. Just because it is illegal doesn't mean jack shit to a person who wants a firearm. And unless you are a FFL dealer at your state-run gun show, private sellers aren't required to do background checks. You just cannot sell live ammo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor-933 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Just now, Zeke said: And unless you are a FFL dealer at your state-run gun show, private sellers aren't required to do background checks. You just cannot sell live ammo. Did you miss the part where I already covered that? Private sellers "aren't required to" because they aren't able to. The only thing that can be done is to go to an FFL and have them do it -- and they charge money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Victor-933 said: Did you miss the part where I already covered that? Private sellers "aren't required to" because they aren't able to. The only thing that can be done is to go to an FFL and have them do it -- and they charge money. No shit. Which is why private sellers aren't doing the extra leg to make sure it is recorded via state and people like the San Bernardino shooters are getting weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor-933 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 32 minutes ago, Saxon said: Assuming that I agree with all the laws in my country is silly. Prohibiting people on terror watch lists from getting firearms could have prevented some massacres, so that's a measurable safety benefit. I don't agree that regarding people on terror watch lists as suspicious would affect everyone's else's freedoms. I think it would probably affect orthodox Muslims most, some of whom might unfairly be considered terror threats, and that most other people wouldn't notice. So I guess having a four year old child dragged off a flight because he had the same name as someone else is just no big deal to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor-933 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Saxon said: Correct. A family being delayed by 'a few minutes', according to your article, is not a big deal. Quote She said a ticket agent told her: “You’re lucky that we’re letting you through instead of putting you through the other process.” So, in other words, the agent stuck their neck out for this family. Do you think every Tom, Dick and Harry wrongfully flagged this way is gonna get so lucky? 1 minute ago, Saxon said: Massacres in which scores of people are murdered by muslim extremists who were known to the authorities, but still allowed to legally purchase firearms, are a big deal. The FBI investigated him. Twice. He passed psych evals, CCW courses, SEVERAL background checks, and had a job as armed security with a major security firm. I bet even in Merry Old England this guy would've been able to satisfy the requirements to carry a gun. I don't understand how the fuck you think giving the government power to strip rights via a secret list is going to work. Remember, these watch lists are classified. Nobody except DHS officials know exactly what gets you put on them. Nobody knows if they're on the list until they get pulled off a flight. There is no appeals process. The only way you have a chance of proving your innocence (say you end up like this toddler and get tagged because of your name) is if you're rich enough to kick up a big fuss in court over it. And you fucking think using this list, in its current form, to restrict rights that for 200 years have been considered by this country to be intrinsic to all human beings, is a good idea? 49 minutes ago, Saxon said: Assuming that I agree with all the laws in my country is silly. Don't insult my intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassah Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Saxon said: I think accidental placements on the list are a worth while price in order to scupper Islamist terrorists. The problem isn't with accidental placements, it's with the inevitable intentional placements. US has a history of lists too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 3 minutes ago, Rassah said: The problem isn't with accidental placements, it's with the inevitable intentional placements. US has a history of lists too. This is correct. The terror watch list and the no fly list which are used interchangeably have no due process. You can be placed on it at any time for any reason. There is no process to have your name removed. There is no presumption of innocence, no trial, no judge, no legal counsel, no jury. The president could just put the entire country on the terror list and then confiscate everyone's guns. That isn't how a society under the rule of law is supposed to function. America is a republic not a dictatorship. Fascism has no place in America. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 3 minutes ago, Saxon said: Except they couldn't, because that's silly. Restricting somebody's movement probably has a bigger effect on their political freedom than restricting their right to firearms. Do you think you live in a fascist state because your security services arbitrarily ban suspected terrorists from boarding aircraft? You have no idea what the president would or wouldn't do especially if the president were Hillary or Trump. Yes people who are suspected of something are not guilty of it. Isn't that the excuse for keeping the borders open instead of preventing all muslims from entering the country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Saxon said: I have an idea of what they could and couldn't do. They couldn't command that every citizen in the USA surrender their arms because that would be infeasible. You may as well demand that every citizen in the USA surrender their cars. Do you think that could ever actually happen, even if a looney president stomped his feet and demanded it? Your intelligence services are appointed to spy on people. This is already a severe violation of a small number of individuals' privacy. It doesn't mean that the entire concept of a right to privacy becomes irrelevant, and even if you do think that, it doesn't change the reality, which is that espionage is necessary for pragmatic reasons. Similarly, intelligence services may be able to identify a small number of people who pose significant risk to other people's well being. It should be within their powers to prevent weapons sales to those people. Indeed, scores of lives could have been saved if they had this power. Intelligence services are there in order to route out the small number of nasty people based on the surreptitious evidence they collect, because that is much more effective than trying to banish entire groups of people. The president can command people to do whatever they want as long as there is a law that allows it. Laws must be judged not by how a good person will apply the law but how an evil person would apply it because once it is written you will be unable to determine who will be in charge. Spying on people is an invasion of privacy. People should not be spied upon by their own government. Spying on your own people is the hallmark of fascist governments. You are a statist. You cannot trade freedom for safety. If you give up your freedom you are less free and less safe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Just now, Saxon said: Given that you're arguing that any form of espionage proves that a state is fascist, I gather you are trolling. No. I'm serious. Spying on your own citizens is the act of a fascist government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Just now, Saxon said: So every country in the world is fascist? Every country has its own espionage division and they all spy on endemic threats. Every country that spies on their own citizens is engaging in fascist behaviour. The more fascist behaviours that government participates in the more fascist the country is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Saxon said: Undercover police pretending to be Irish dissidents or Islamist jihadis, in order to infiltrate their networks and discover what nasty activities they are planning is a necessary line of work which saves lives. If you sincerely think that is fascism, then maybe you are too idealistic, rather than pragmatically minded. But I doubt you actually think any of this, anyway. I'm not sure whether you are getting enjoyment from me typing boring replies, or whether you aim to embarrass users like Yarra, by tricking them into agreeing with something silly. Spying on your own citizens is not reasonable or necessary. What is reasonable and necessary to have a peaceful and harmonious society, where people can live freely and without fear, is to prevent anyone who has beliefs that run counter to the ideology of your country from entering or immigrating to your country. If you don't let people with poisonous ideologies into your country you don't have to spy on them. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#00Buck Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Just now, Saxon said: People with nasty ideologies are born in our nations too. For example some Britons organise the sexual exploitation and trafficking of children. I am very glad that the British intelligence services have undercover officers who spy on them. I don't think it is possible to prevent anybody with nasty ideas entering a country anyway, because somebody might keep their ideology secret for a long time, until they set about forming a network or amassing the resources they need to kill people. I read the articles about that. They were muslims. If your government did not let them in it never would have happened. If someone: Believes all homosexuals should be killed. Believes women should be treated as property. Believes atheists and followers of any faith other than their own should be killed. Believes that anyone who leaves their religious faith should die. Believes that anyone not of their faith can be made into a sexual slave or be raped. Or holds any other beliefs that are abhorrent to the culture and laws of your nation. Do not let them into your country! If you follow these simple rules you will never have to spy upon your own citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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