Orlando: The Victims

[Ricky]

44 minutes ago, Wax said:

Twitter has a feature for searching for tweets, and extremely controversial ones blow up because random people RT it and reply to it with rebuttals.

Well, yeah.. or things get deep-linked somewhere in the web and show in searches, etc.

I was talking about the usual responses.

27 minutes ago, Gryphoneer said:

Just like American gun laws are at its strictest, without being strict enough to actually save the lives of school children, Planned Parenthood personnel and clubgoers.

It's arguably easier and can certainly be more effective to use other means besides guns to accomplish the same goal. I believe people should have a right to hunt and to protect themselves, even though I despise guns personally, as well as paranoid gun-toting NRA freaks. You aren't going to "save" anybody in the short term. You are making something illegal that lawless people already have. Those are the ones to worry about. Giving them an advantage with something they have that others don't isn't exactly a deterrent to emotionally driven events such as this.

Also, all you gun control extremists should remember the guy ALREADY HAD A GUN that was issued for his job.

[Kinharia]

 

[Wax]

8 minutes ago, Kinharia said:

 

Relevant!

[Derin Darkpaw]

17 hours ago, Toshabi said:

Call it like it is: A religion that's calling for the death of gays. Don't sugar coat that shit. That's what pisses me off the most about this. We do the same to Christianity and any other bullshit that does this kind of shit, Muslims don't deserve this special liberal ass pat treatment. 

No we don't do the same to Christianity.  When was the last time you heard about the U.S. invading a country with a majority Christian population, or bombing a city containing primarily Christian people because that is how we treat Muslim countries that do this kind of shit.  For the last several generations the outside world as acted violently and subversively to disrupt the Middle East.  Now this in no way forgives the actions perpetrated by these nations, but when you show several generations of people nothing but violence how do you expect them to respond when the only means to affect change that they know is violent and subversive action.

I do not believe in giving them a special pass for the hatred and bigotry that is clearly evident in their society, but while you may say things like this

16 hours ago, Toshabi said:

I don't want them bombed. I don't want them killed. I want them to stop getting the pass for being hateful. 

There are many people in the U.S. that do want to see them bombed, killed, and otherwise harmed.  So that is why so often you see people speak out in defense of Muslims because Muslims in America are more often the victims of hatred then the perpetrators of it and when one is not careful about the manner in which they speak on this sensitive issue then they are empowering those that do want to seem them bombed and killed.

[CETME]

8 minutes ago, Derin Darkpaw said:

No we don't do the same to Christianity.  When was the last time you heard about the U.S. invading a country with a majority Christian population, or bombing a city containing primarily Christian people because that is how we treat Muslim countries that do this kind of shit. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

[I Did It For The Cat Girls]

18 hours ago, Jerry said:

They're lagging 500 years behind the rest of the world, ideologically speaking.

Most of the human species could give absolutely two hoots about women's rights, gays, or living in some counterfeit racial utopia.

The principle reason why a lot of Third World nations play half-baked lip service to notions of human rights is merely to cultivate a strong, winning relationship with rich western friends so that luscious bank can be made. They're concerned with the prospects of a foreign aid handout, not the West's ideas.

While the antipathy towards Western universalist mores espoused by many Muslims is a unique breed of its own, this problem has a deep and profound presence in the very soul of humanity itself.

Seriously, first dude on this forum who succeeds in getting Japan's indigenous population to see legalized, non-Japanese immigrants as authentic Japanese citizens gets a lifetime supply of oatmeal cookies. This deal is set in stone until I check into a grave.

Good luck trying to fix the Middle East by destabilizing yet another country over there by putting just one more "pro-Western" tin pot dictator in power or initiating "Operation Arab Spring II: Let's Try This Again LOL".

I'm sure they'll start hosting pride parades and campaigning for open border policies any day now.

 

 

 

[Wax]

I don't think that religion is explicitly the problem, but the incredibly archaic teachings within them. Even though there are many Christians today who will resent any kind of mistreatment towards LGBT+ individuals because they recognise that such teachings aren't compatible with the society they live in, the exact same goes for Muslims, but the number is almost certainly less.

People who believe shit that spreads a backwards, hateful idea absolutely do not deserve to get away with it. But I still don't believe the entire religion is the problem, just the specific teachings in it that people can and should choose to ignore.

1 hour ago, Derin Darkpaw said:

No we don't do the same to Christianity.  When was the last time you heard about the U.S. invading a country with a majority Christian population, or bombing a city containing primarily Christian people because that is how we treat Muslim countries that do this kind of shit.  For the last several generations the outside world as acted violently and subversively to disrupt the Middle East.  Now this in no way forgives the actions perpetrated by these nations, but when you show several generations of people nothing but violence how do you expect them to respond when the only means to affect change that they know is violent and subversive action.

No, I think Toshabi is pretty much correct. It's almost a given that the US' invasion of Middle Eastern countries in the early 2000s weren't to 'eradicate' Islam. Arguably, they were to eradicate radical Islam - and it is still pretty much widely believe they were invaded for economic reasons also.

[Crazy Lee]

6 hours ago, Hux said:

The nail gun mass shooting is when?

Probably never. Nail guns only take one cartridge at a time. You have to manually reload them each time. So, if someone were to try, they'd get off one round that would probably injure and not kill someone, and would be reloading while people tackled the fuck out of them. It would be like trying to do a mass shooting with a single round bolt action .22 rifle, except this rifle shoots a nail instead of a bullet.

18 hours ago, Rassah said:

 where weapons are already banned

Has it been specifically stated anywhere that weapons were banned from this nightclub? From what I've heard there was one or more armed guards at this place.

17 hours ago, PastryOfApathy said:

IT JUST KEEPS HAPPENING!

Archived Source

I'm not taking the opinion of a witness to the shooting without a grain of salt the size of a small planetary body. People in chaotic situations will often be confused and not know what they're actually seeing due to being panicked and in flight-or-fight mode, which means they're not thinking coherently. Witnesses can be unreliable because they don't remember all of what they saw.

Odds are, the other "shooters" this lady described were either the security guards of the club who tried to stop the attacker, or police that responded. If there were other shooters the police would have told people.

7 hours ago, Saxon said:

The BBC is saying 49 people died, not 50, so that's some small reprieve.

No. Likely they're not adding the shooter to the body count. I see this all the time, even during the last shooting in San Bernardino. I noticed some news organizations counted the shooters in the death count, some didn't, which gave two different body counts.

 

18 hours ago, PastryOfApathy said:

Let's see what the "religion of peace" has to say about recent events!

So. Cherry picking the tweets of those Muslims who may not even be in the majority, and using those tweets to claim that those... what...19 people represent all 1 billion Muslims?
 So, does that mean if I cherry pick the comments of the WBC and other fundies who say that gay people should die, that means those people represent ALL of Christianity? And not just a hateful and vocal minority?

Please. Try again.

[Crazy Lee]

Quote

Of course the selection of comments represents an irate minority, in the west. In Islamic countries such views are the majority opinion, which is why the murder of homosexuals at the behest of the Qur'an is institutionalised as a death sentence in nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

When you live and grow up in a country where the religious leaders around you and even the government which is religious itself spouts certain ideas, then you're probably going to have those same ideas as well.

The biggest problem is that these kind of ideas in these countries exist with the majority of people and the government, within their culture, and because of the often authoritarian type of government (and because the vast majority think a certain way), dissenting opinions are ignored at best and silenced violently at worse. And that makes it hard for true social liberal change in these countries, however rich and "well educated" they are. You can be as well off as UAE and still think that women shouldn't drive and non-believers are infidel.  Of course, that doesn't mean that people who grow up outside of that environment who follow that religion could possibly escape such thinking.

12 minutes ago, Saxon said:

So if you want to discuss all 1 billion Muslims, most do support the imprisonment or execution of homosexuals. :\

Even in western countries, where we're fortunate enough that most Muslims don't support killing gay people, about half think that homosexuality should be illegal.

The muslims who come to the west may very well be the kind who may have left their countries for being too liberal or not following along with the established creed.

Also, a lot of Christians also think homosexuality should be illegal. I've even known Christians I've been friends with who, while having gay friends, will say they're against gay marriage or relationships, but say they cannot judge others. So, they too think gays should not be in relationships, they just keep their mouth shut. It's possible that nearly half or even more of Christians think that homosexuality is wrong, shouldn't exist, or maybe even think it should be illegal, they just don't say anything.

My point is, I could care less what you think. You hate gays, fine. You thing gay marriage or homosexuality should be illegal, fine. I don't care what you think, I care what you do. You can think anything you want as long as you leave gays alone and obey the law. It's if you harm gays that I would have a problem with. If a Muslim comes over and dislikes homosexuals, I will disagree with it and think they're a bad person, but they can believe that in a free country as long as they obey the law and leave gays alone.

[Gryphoneer]

HOLD THE GODDAMN PRESSES

So, turns out the shooter was a regular at the Pulse club, and he send other men messages via gay dating app. Let me use this opportunity to spell out the obvious:

What REALLY happened here isn't some form of Islamist terrorism, it's a self-loathing gay man who has been described as mentally unstable by his own wife put his self-hate into action because he lived in homo-hostile, hyper-machismo and gun-heavy society.

This massacre isn't an act of radical Islam, it's an act of radical Americanism. Man, the Islamophobe assholes look even dumber than usual.

[Gryphoneer]

I mean, seriously, how stupid have you got to be to genuinely think this is an ISIS attack? For the love of the FSM, what kind of terrorist confesses his affiliation via 911?!?

what are you people smoking

After all, the FBI interviewed that guy two times before. Don't you think if there was any real connection between him and ISIS they would've found out immediately in the course of their intensive background checks?

[root]

2 minutes ago, Gryphoneer said:

After all, the FBI interviewed that guy two times before. Don't you think if there was any real connection between him and ISIS they would've found out immediately in the course of their intensive background checks?

I dunno, the FBI knew about one of the Boston bombers but didn't do anything about it.

[Butters]

The fedora is so strong in here, its unreal. 

[Gryphoneer]

8 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Yes I'm sure the radical religious perspectives he pledged allegiance to, before murdering scores of people, had nothing to do with his hatred of homosexuals, whether it was a manifestation of self hatred or otherwise.

It's obviously like, the fucking Patriarchy, isn't it? Of course. It always is.

Any "pledge of allegiance" doesn't hold much water if it comes from a person with a known history of mental health problems. Had he sworn allegiance to the Goddess to that 911 operator, would you rant against how the Wiccans and other New Agers are to blame for the bloodbath?

Also, lol. It's sad to see how much of an anti-social justice fanatic you've become. Do you attack anyone this way you figure to be one of the nefarious Sjew enemy?

[Lucyfish]

Ban all Abrahamic religions

I mean, the dumbass tried to kill his son because he thought God told him to. This man was not a good role model for any religion. :U

[PastryOfApathy]

1 hour ago, Crazy Lee said:

So. Cherry picking the tweets of those Muslims who may not even be in the majority, and using those tweets to claim that those... what...19 people represent all 1 billion Muslims?

 So, does that mean if I cherry pick the comments of the WBC and other fundies who say that gay people should die, that means those people represent ALL of Christianity? And not just a hateful and vocal minority?

Please. Try again.

Here's the difference broheim...

Christian fundies generally don't actually go through with their genocidal wank fantasies. Muslims do it on an almost daily basis.

Like I used to be really big on the whole "oh religion of peace blah blah blah", but like how many fucking times does this shit need to happen before you say enough is enough? I mean I legitimately sympathize with Muslims who aren't absolutely fucking ass-backwards barbarians since I know they exist and I've talked to them, but Arab culture as a whole is fucking toxic can no longer be tolerated in western society.

It took me a while to accept it, but the truth isn't always politically correct and sometimes you have to be the asshole who points that out. How many more people need to be raped or murdered until everyone else realizes the same?

[Gryphoneer]

17 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I would have found this persuasive, but on the other hand Gryphoneer did say I would be stupid if I disagreed with him and used size 72 text, so he's probably right.

Apples and oranges, friends, apples and oranges. Had you actually taken the time to thoroughly read my post, you would have noticed my point was another one entirely:

ISIS is the hot new terrorist organization that's every intelligence agency's focus, so you get flagged if you're actually connected to Daesh.

But!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombing

Quote

According to FBI interrogators, Dzhokhar and his brother were motivated by extremist Islamic beliefs, but "were not connected to any known terrorist groups"

That's right, Dzhokhar and Tsarnaev were lone wolves, so of course they slipped through the FBI's net. Besides, the initial suspicions against the two were brought forward by the FSB, a notoriously untrustworthy instrument of the Russian rogue state.

So, can I call root and Saxon stupid now for not doing the damn research?

...and because Omar Mateen was a crazy gay man who had no real connection to ISIS and murdered because of his sickness and not Islam the FBI couldn't pin anything on him, so they let him go.

[Derin Darkpaw]

17 minutes ago, PastryOfApathy said:

Arab culture as a whole is fucking toxic can no longer be tolerated in western society.

It took me a while to accept it, but the truth isn't always politically correct and sometimes you have to be the asshole who points that out. How many more people need to be raped or murdered until everyone else realizes the same?

Except its be statistically shown that Arab populations within the West, even immigrants very recently from the Middle East, are no more likely to commit rape, murder or any other crime then the general population of most Western countries. 

The problem then would seem to not be one of culture but one caused by the socioeconomic conditions present in the Middle East along with current governments that enforce said rule violently and use power to keep their citizenry in said poor socioeconomic conditions.

The question then becomes how do we solve these problems and I don't think isolating them within their already economically poor geographic region followed by bombing them into the stone age will achieve the desired result.  We have tried isolating portions of the Middle East through means such as economic sanctions and we have tried violently replacing their governments and neither of those two solutions has accomplished anything.  In fact both of those solutions seem to have made the whole situation worse.  I will admit that his is an incredibly complicated situation and I don't know what the the correct answer is, but I do think its clear that we have tried violence and isolation for too long and we need to look for a more effective solution.

[Hux]

49 minutes ago, Butters said:

The fedora is so strong in here, its unreal. 

Does it help hide the tumblr-esque rainbow hair?

[Endless/Nameless]

23 minutes ago, Gryphoneer said:

Apples and oranges, friends, apples and oranges. Had you actually taken the time to thoroughly read my post, you would have noticed my point was another one entirely:

ISIS is the hot new terrorist organization that's every intelligence agency's focus, so you get flagged if you're actually connected to Daesh.

But!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombing

That's right, Dzhokhar and Tsarnaev were lone wolves, so of course they slipped through the FBI's net. Besides, the initial suspicions against the two were brought forward by the FSB, a notoriously untrustworthy instrument of the Russian rogue state.

So, can I call root and Saxon stupid now for not doing the damn research?

...and because Omar Mateen was a crazy gay man who had no real connection to ISIS and murdered because of his sickness and not Islam the FBI couldn't pin anything on him, so they let him go.

1 minute ago, Derin Darkpaw said:

Except its be statistically shown that Arab populations within the West, even immigrants very recently from the Middle East, are no more likely to commit rape, murder or any other crime then the general population of most Western countries.

Statistics can be as blinding as radicalism

[Derin Darkpaw]

1 minute ago, Endless/Nameless said:

Statistics can be as blinding as radicalism

ok then can you tell me how you would go about proving that one group is any more or less violent then another group without using statistics?

Statistics are an important scientific tool we use to come to a better understanding of the world and you can't just dismiss it offhand.  If you are going to claim that the statistics are misleading or factually incorrect then you are going to need to back that up with strong evidence and for the record before you bring up any anecdotes are generally very weak evidence.

[Terminal7]

51 minutes ago, Lucyfish said:

Ban all Abrahamic religions

I mean, the dumbass tried to kill his son because he thought God told him to. This man was not a good role model for any religion. :U

Definitely not bait. 

[#00Buck]

Just now, Derin Darkpaw said:

ok then can you tell me how you would go about proving that one group is any more or less violent then another group without using statistics?

Statistics are an important scientific tool we use to come to a better understanding of the world and you can't just dismiss it offhand.  If you are going to claim that the statistics are misleading or factually incorrect then you are going to need to back that up with strong evidence and for the record before you bring up any anecdotes are generally very weak evidence.

By stepping over the piles of dead bodies. 

[Crazy Lee]

13 minutes ago, Hux said:

Does it help hide the tumblr-esque rainbow hair?

What if I have both? Tumblr hair and a fedora?
Does that mean I kill myself, while screaming about the patriarchy and sjws at the same time?

[Derin Darkpaw]

7 minutes ago, #00Buck said:

By stepping over the piles of dead bodies. 

 

You are trying to overturn the entire field of statistics there buddy.  Its going to take a whole lot more then a single sentence to accomplish such a feat.  Come on put some effort into your continued insistence to deny facts.

[Endless/Nameless]

Just now, Derin Darkpaw said:

ok then can you tell me how you would go about proving that one group is any more or less violent then another group without using statistics?

Statistics are an important scientific tool we use to come to a better understanding of the world and you can't just dismiss it offhand.  If you are going to claim that the statistics are misleading or factually incorrect then you are going to need to back that up with strong evidence and for the record before you bring up any anecdotes are generally very weak evidence.

Even the most accurate numbers can be manipulated and misrepresented. 

The best interpretation you're going to get is through open eyes and open ears.

That is all I'll say. 

[#00Buck]

Just now, Derin Darkpaw said:

 

You are trying to overturn the entire field of statistics there buddy its going to take a whole lot more then a single sentence to accomplish such a feat.  Come on put some effort into your continued insistence to deny facts.

If someone showed you statistics that said the moon was made of cheese you'd believe it.

Your detachment from reality is tiresome and boring. 

If muslims are so statistically wonderful why don't you move some muslim refugees into your house? It's statistically the right thing to do. What could possibly go wrong? 

[Hux]

4 minutes ago, Crazy Lee said:

What if I have both? Tumblr hair and a fedora?
Does that mean I kill myself, while screaming about the patriarchy and sjws at the same time?

No, if you have both you must be pretty mellow, actually. Go do normie shit. You ain't cool enough for us hardcore spergs.

[Lucyfish]

15 minutes ago, Terminal7 said:

Definitely not bait. 

Just saying, if you're gonna blame Islam for all this, let's just go the full monty. Islam and Christianity have the same birthplace and are essentially the same religion, just with different base skin colors.

[#00Buck]

Just now, Lucyfish said:

Just saying, if you're gonna blame Islam for all this, let's just go the full monty. Islam and Christianity have the same birthplace and are essentially the same religion, just with different base skin colors.

Not even close. 

[Lucyfish]

1 minute ago, #00Buck said:

Not even close. 

Read a book.

[Endless/Nameless]

1 minute ago, Lucyfish said:

Just saying, if you're gonna blame Islam for all this, let's just go the full monty. Islam and Christianity have the same birthplace and are essentially the same religion, just with different base skin colors.

1 minute ago, #00Buck said:

Not even close. 

She is right to some degree. Islam was basically a radical offshoot of Christianity, and they both come from many of the same ancient texts.
They are irreconcilably different now, but they have the same mommy.

Kill me, Lucy

[Clove Darkwave]

I think we've let this thread run its course with the point it is at right now. All good it could have brought has been exhausted.

[Guest]

Alright so, since I have the most free-time, I do think its important for us to talk about the shooting and have sympathy for those affected. 

Sometime tuesday or wednesday I'll go through the whole thread and hide off topic posts, and reopen the thread.

Going forward, anyone who brings up anything dissing islam, anything vs christianity- anything about shit that has NOTHING to do with the 50 lives that were lost, will get hiden and the person popped a 3 pointer. A couple yellers shouldn't ruin what should have been a thread for mourning and your thoughts.