Closed Species

[root]

Thoughts?

On one hand, a person created it. On the other hand, it's probably not that unique to warrant a copyright on its design and it's kind of pretentious and greedy to say it's off limits without explicit permission. This issue came up during the Major/Minor crap when Klace included some donator's sergal character (granted he was profiting off of it).

[Zytan]

I always thought this fandom was about creating concepts for others to join in on, not to be some twat in the corner with a shiny Charizard that you aren't allowed to look at.  

[Gator]

i really don't get why people get so butthurt about "closed species".  if i put my time and consideration into designing something, why should i be expected to let others copy and use it without asking me or adhering to the guidelines that i put in place?  maybe i want my design to keep its integrity.  i don't see anything pretentious or greedy about that; it's your own creation and you shouldn't be obligated to give it away freely.  even if they don't have the means to protect or enforce it legally, it should really just be common decency to respect someone else's creation as their own.  i don't think wanting some control over a thing you made is asking too much. 

 

[Xaende]

From today onward, nobody else is allowed to combine a fox with a wolf without my permission. I will call them Metafolfs. Metafolfs are now a closed species. If your fursona is a combination of a fox and a wolf, then you're stealing. :V

It's not like literal prior art exists for just about every species hybrid imaginable.

 

test

 

[Red Lion]

I see it kind of like this.

Trying to use your own version of an idea or concept is fine. No one has a patent on the vague concept of subterranean monsters with big claw hands so there's no reason people can't use that idea. Variations of it have been done a lot over time so go nuts.

Trying to claim the alien species that someone worked hard to design and create, is not OK. If I make a creature that has its own design and context then hell no, I'm not going to share it. It's the same as asking if you can just have one of my characters, I made those for my own use and I don't want someone who doesn't know the character or creature trying to portray them. 

there's a difference between a broad idea, like making a hybrid between two existing animals or putting wings on a dog, and a detailed and fleshed out honest to goodness creative species. With the latter, it's usually not just a design, there's a whole background, theme, setting and narrative to go along with it. Even if the design itself resembles existing ideas that actual species with its narrative and history is a product of the creator and only the creator has the right to use it unless they are willing to share and I do not believe anyone should feel obligated to share. Wanting to keep something you worked hard on doesn't make you selfish, the selfish one is the person who feels entitled to another person's work and effort.

It's seriously not hard, if you want a dog with wings, make your own version of a dog with wings. If you want ancient Zoobadooba alien slime dogs with wings from the planet Shezork ask the fucking creator and if they say "get off my property" don't be a butthurt little bitch. 

[Elektranine]

1 hour ago, Gator said:

i really don't get why people get so butthurt about "closed species".  if i put my time and consideration into designing something, why should i be expected to let others copy and use it without asking me or adhering to the guidelines that i put in place?  maybe i want my design to keep its integrity.  i don't see anything pretentious or greedy about that; it's your own creation and you shouldn't be obligated to give it away freely.  even if they don't have the means to protect or enforce it legally, it should really just be common decency to respect someone else's creation as their own.  i don't think wanting some control over a thing you made is asking too much. 

 

Except that you cannot copyright ideas or designs. No idea or design is patent-able or copyright-able and only has a very narrow trademark-ability. A species hybrid combination is something as obvious as the SUV or fantasy characters.

Wanting to control something you do not own is simply asking too much. You do not have any means of legally enforcing your claims to ownership and any court would simply reject your claim.

No one owns the word "elf" and the mere idea of an "elf" or even the specific design of a particular "elf"

The bottom line is the the mere idea and design of a creative content are free to be used by any other person without fee or permission because it is long held common law that it is too difficult to prove that you had an idea first. This is specifically why ideas and designs are excluded from copyrights in most western countries.

[Gator]

46 minutes ago, Elektranine said:

Except that you cannot copyright ideas or designs. No idea or design is patent-able or copyright-able and only has a very narrow trademark-ability. A species hybrid combination is something as obvious as the SUV or fantasy characters.

Wanting to control something you do not own is simply asking too much. You do not have any means of legally enforcing your claims to ownership and any court would simply reject your claim.

No one owns the word "elf" and the mere idea of an "elf" or even the specific design of a particular "elf"

The bottom line is the the mere idea and design of a creative content are free to be used by any other person without fee or permission because it is long held common law that it is too difficult to prove that you had an idea first. This is specifically why ideas and designs are excluded from copyrights in most western countries.

like i said, even if they can't legally do anything about it, it doesn't make it any less shitty of people to take their things without asking.  sorry furries are so whiny and entitled to other people's ideas that they can't make their own.

edit: anyway, you CAN own a specific design.  just not a broad concept, as has already been pointed out.

[Red Lion]

46 minutes ago, Elektranine said:

 

No one owns the word "elf" and the mere idea of an "elf" or even the specific design of a particular "elf"

 

Going to have to disagree with this. 

No one owns the word "elf" or the idea of an "elf" that's true enough but you CAN own the specific design of a particular elf.

Say you decided you very specifically wanted to take the Dunmer from the Elder Scrolls series and use it for your own published work and you changed nothing, not even the name. Bethesda softworks could legally and rightfully sue you for plagerism if you tried to make money off of it because that version of an elf is the legal property of that company. 

 

[Caledonian]

I created one furry like species, called the Cernuns. I haven't posted any art of them yet,nor do i expect them to get very famous, but here is my feelings on fictional scenarios.

I could have put no restrictions on the cernuns. They become popular and people start making characters that are like this species. I would be extremely flattered. I would love and encourage my species to spread further... but at the same time, i spend a lot of time to weave their cultures and lives. 

To be continued, i got to leave now

[FlynnCoyote]

I got no problem with people creating their own species if it's for a story they're writing or a similar project they're working on. No problem at all. It's a dick move to steal the idea/design if this is the case, but them's the risks of putting anything online.

But one artist I used to follow was creating closed species, then selling the right to create a character of that species to anyone stupid enough to pay. Part of agreeing with this purchase was that she retained the rights to claim them as belonging to her. It wasn't creativity for its own sake, it was a glorified adoptables scam. 

 

[Red Lion]

One reason I feel so strongly about this is because I know what it feels like to spend years refining a species, working on their environment, their culture, their history and now Gator and I are even slowly working on developing a language for our alien race. This has been a project that has taken almost a decade of designing, redesigning, researching and fine tuning. I could stack the notebooks we have filled on our project to the ceiling I have learned more about physics and science and linguistics just building this species than I ever did in school. I would be absolutely furious if some schmuck who never contributed shit to this project just came along and helped himself to the product of our hard work.

 I honestly don't think it's too much to ask someone if you can use their things. You don't know how much time and work someone put into their species/characters/design and there's a good reason most art hosting sites have it in their TOS not to steal from other artists. 

Long story short:  

  

 

 

[Zerig]

it makes me want to make a character exactly like theirs just to piss them off

[Feelwell]

Well did you design it purely for profit or was it an artistic endeavor for fun? What was the original purpose in the idea? 

If it was for profit sure, keep it to yourself I guess.

If it was an artistic endeavor?

Realize that people like your idea enough they want to create things with it. It was a good idea. It's going to grow and flourish, and you've sparked creativity. That's a good thing.

[DrDingo]

Imagine you're a pokemon designer at Game Freak. You work hard to make something really cool with a unique origin, and in an instant masses of furries flock from nowhere and draw it in a dress with a hyperpenis

You wouldn't like that an awful lot, would you?

Now imagine you design something unique you're really proud of to represent yourself. Then people rip it from you and draw scat inflation porn of your beloved design.

How much would you hate that?

[Gator]

1 hour ago, Feelwell the Rabbit said:

Well did you design it purely for profit or was it an artistic endeavor for fun? What was the original purpose in the idea? 

If it was for profit sure, keep it to yourself I guess.

If it was an artistic endeavor?

Realize that people like your idea enough they want to create things with it. It was a good idea. It's going to grow and flourish, and you've sparked creativity. That's a good thing.

so if someone steals your shit, you should just be flattered that they liked it enough to rip  you off?  No, thanks.  and it's not much of a creative spark if you'd rather copy someone else's work without permission than just make your own. 

 

When it comes to closed-species adopts, same thing.  If you want one so badly, then be prepared to follow whatever rules the creator set in place, because get this: at the end of the day, you didn't make it and therefore you have no right to take it.  They didn't have to make it adoptable at all.  You are not entitled to someone else's design.  I don't care if they say "In order to adopt a schmergleborker, you have to send me ten dick pics and proclaim me the next coming of Christ".  They made the design, so they can put whatever rules and restrictions in place for it they want, and too bad if you think it's expensive or unfair or whatever else.  Dying for your own fucking schmergleborker?  Prepare the dick pics.  You know what you do if you don't wanna do those things?  Make up your own idea. 

Then there are the ones who don't even really want the design, but they're butthurt anyway.  I'm not even just talking about this thread; i've seen this sentiment a lot.  It's so fucking childish to stand around and say "lol i'm gonna make my own just to piss 'em off--AND THEN I'M GONNA DARW A GIANT HORSEDONG ON IT THAT'LL REALLY SHOW EM"  ...show 'em what?  that you're ten years old and still think everyone has to share everything with you for free just because you exist?  yeah ok good job.  goal achieved.  i'm sure the creators of these closed species are absolutely gonna piss themselves in rage over your awesome rebellion.  Because how dare they make something and do whatever they want with it instead of letting you do whatever you want with it, right?  WHAT AWFUL PEOPLE.

 

this whole thing is starting to remind me of those kids who whine about having a dress code at work.  you want to bag groceries at the food mart, you take out your fucking nose ring.  you think you'll die if you take out your nose ring, don't work at the food mart.  it's not unfair; you knew what the rules were before you signed on.  same shit. 

nothing is being taken away from you.  nobody is forcing you to follow the creator's rules or to buy an adopt from them.  but if you lay claim to someone else's work without permission, then congratulations, you're an asshole.  you're not doing the artist a fucking service by stealing their idea.  how full of yourself does someone have to be to believe that?

 

EXCUSE THE RANT.

[Ricky]

A copyright has no relevance at all unless someone is making money off it, which is why I love laughing at people who get all butthurt over people using their characters and threatening a LOLlawsuit x3

Not that there would be much liability anyway, even if they were selling art of it.

[Red Lion]

People threatening lawsuits when there's no money involved are dumb. especially since on most art hosting sites you can at least report users who take your characters or designs since that still falls under plagiarism. 

Quote

Traced, plagiarized, or stolen content is prohibited. This includes any character that is heavily derived from another user's unique character.

from the furaffinity Acceptable upload policy.

Says right there that a character heavily derived from another users character counts as plagiarized or stolen. Instead of whining impotently about a lawsuit just report the person. 

One thing some people don't seem to understand about making art accessible to the public. Letting someone look at your creation is not letting them use your creation, no matter what anyone tries to say, and there are rules in place that protect artists and creators from theft of their designs and characters and people should not be discouraged from making use of those protections. 

[FlynnCoyote]

10 hours ago, Red Lion said:

Says right there that a character heavily derived from another users character counts as plagiarized or stolen. Instead of whining impotently about a lawsuit just report the person. 

Who gets precedence with the hundreds... thousands of generic red fox characters?

[Ricky]

On 6/22/2016 at 11:35 PM, FlynnCoyote said:

Who gets precedence with the hundreds... thousands of generic red fox characters?

I'd hope common sense would come into effect here. Red fox isn't "heavily derived" since there aren't enough specifics involved, in the same way you can't claim rights on a word, or initials, or something else really generic like that.

[Spot]

I haven't read the entire thread so I'm probably repeating this, but the issue arises when people build up a reputation and identity around a specific character. If someone is using your character and name across multiple communities it can be potentially damaging both online and in real life, especially if you're the con going type since the character reflects back on to the creator itself. So it's not hard to see why people get bent out of shape about it.

[Ricky]

defamation of one's false persona

[Jayke]

It's dumb. And it's asinine. And just plain stupid. We need to be like Darwin (sort of) and share all newly "discovered" species.

[LowPitchFart]

On 6/21/2016 at 8:05 PM, Gator said:

When it comes to closed-species adopts, same thing.  If you want one so badly, then be prepared to follow whatever rules the creator set in place, because get this: at the end of the day, you didn't make it and therefore you have no right to take it.  They didn't have to make it adoptable at all.  You are not entitled to someone else's design.  I don't care if they say "In order to adopt a schmergleborker, you have to send me ten dick pics and proclaim me the next coming of Christ".  They made the design, so they can put whatever rules and restrictions in place for it they want, and too bad if you think it's expensive or unfair or whatever else.  Dying for your own fucking schmergleborker?  Prepare the dick pics.  You know what you do if you don't wanna do those things?  Make up your own idea.

Rules and restrictions after you bought it? Sorry but that's not owning it, that's merely purchasing a license to use it. That's like buying a car and being told you're not allowed to color it black. Bloody ridiculous!

[Gator]

10 hours ago, LowPitchFart said:

Rules and restrictions after you bought it? Sorry but that's not owning it, that's merely purchasing a license to use it. That's like buying a car and being told you're not allowed to color it black. Bloody ridiculous!

if you don't like the rules, don't buy the car.  you don't have to agree with the restrictions put in place--but, that said, the rules regarding closed-species adopts, at least that i've seen, tend to be pretty reasonable.  just things to preserve the integrity of the idea behind the design.  but if you're looking for something you can customize as you see fit and go nuts with, all you gotta do is look somewhere else.  why buy a schmergleborker if you don't want a schmergleborker? 

[Jayke]

15 hours ago, Rhíulchabán said:

What I never get are people who create "closed species" which are just oddly colored hybrids of a few different species, like they draw them well, create cool stuff with them... but there are undoubtedly others who already have similar hybrid characters, just differently colored and with different "backstory" elements.

How can that work?

Because some people believe that their ideas are brilliant and that they deserve to own them.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jayke said:

Because some people believe that their ideas are brilliant and that they deserve to own them.

I make personally designed species myself. Now I wouldn't call my ideas brilliant, but are they good? In my opinion, definitely, but what is certain is that I deserve the right to own what I created. My species are my babies

People wrongly assume that it'd be as if you claimed ownership over the animals you drew inspiration from, I think this is the main problem here. You'd have to look at each case individually. If you just took a canid and turned it into a sparkledog, that wouldn't be worth calling a species of its own. That is not enough and its ''author'' would just come off as pretentious, I agree. On the contrary, if you came up with something unique, a combination of species that looks nothing like or barely resembles the species that inspired your creation and polished it and put some actual effort and creativity in it, and/or gave them their own lore and everything, now that would be completely different. That would be an original work that stands on its own. Case in point for the latter: the elves of The Elder Scrolls. They all look the same with only small physical differences, such as different color or height, and yet what really sets them apart are the history and culture behind each of them

My conclusion is, a closed species to be called as such must have one or both of the following: 1) an original appearance; 2) an original lore. If one element is lacking the other can make up for it and justify the closed species label. If it's just for the appearance though I don't see any harm in simply calling a closed species an hybrid instead but that's just me. I don't mind anyone making closed species, even if they're unoriginal or plain bad. I'm just like, you do you man, if that's what you like, go for it. I mean, there are species that are their own thing despite looking the same as others and that principle can be applied here in this argument as well. Small changes wouldn't make for a very interesting species IMHO, but they're fair game. Besides, and most importantly, there are no rules or obligations as to what qualifies as closed species and what doesn't, so one can do whatever they wish. It's all up to personal interpretation here. I mostly care about my own species only anyway