What is Going on With Art Sites?

[Tsuujou]

I actually have a legitimate rant. I promise while FurAffinity is mentioned, it's not the crux of my issue right now. Maybe about 1/4 of the whole problem. I'm going to cross post the bit I put on Tumblr. 

So FurAffinity (again) is being stupid as fuck, this time at the cost of an entire forum. HentaiFoundry’s stupid ass clubhouse mentality has reached a boiling point. Tumblr can’t stop unjustly banning NSFW artists because they’re too damn lazy to actually evaluate the reports. And DeviantArt perpetually being…well...DeviantArt. 

Yeah, that was it. lol

But it's becoming a big problem. I've been getting very cynical towards content hosting sites lately. I understand that the bigger things become, the worse they appear to be. But the problems mentioned above, for the most part, have little to do with their community and more to do with management. I don't have to get into FurAffinity or even DeviantArt. They've had the same type of problems for years now, but they find more ways to make it worse. Tumblr has a stick up their ass about NSFW so they ban first and ask questions later. It's to the point the community has a list of blogs to keep track of so they can appeal their bans and restore their blogs. It shouldn't come to that. And HentaiFoundry. Holy moly. You can read what my friend typed up about HentaiFoundry. I've known that they run on an approval system, but it's turned into a stupid club house where everyone wears a cum soaked fez.

And I know there's alternatives, but when you think about it, not really unless you're willing to make a certain huge compromise.

Furiffic? Brand new. Weasyl? Ghost town (to most people). Inkbunny? Uncomfortable focus on child porn. SoFurry? Yiff yaff roleplay/adult literature focused. Nabyn? Invite only and SFW only. You've got some places that are probably good, but reserved for professionals like ArtStation and Behance so people like me don't belong there. Or places so irrelevant no one even remembers them like NewGrounds. Yeeeeah bet you weren't expecting to see THAT name today. Now you've got Pixiv which is swell, but there's one problem. Most of us don't speak Japanese. :l

I still use some of the above sites, but when people ask me why I stay on certain sites despite not liking them, it's like what choice have I got? Some places I've too much dignity to go to like FurAffinity and InkBunny and others it's just...forget about being seen. It's just troubling. My hope is that Weasyl gets some real footing or at the very least Tumblr stops with their heavy handed crap. 

[Charrio]

I feel ya there, and never found much interest in HF to be honest it wasn't the theme i wanted to go with.
Haven't tried Furrific yet, should tho there is a dwindling number of sites that are worth being on these days.

[Sidhenearlahi]

I remember when I first discovered InkBunny. made an account for the sake of claiming my name there before I even really looked at the content.
I knew there were people with cub fetishes out there, but I never knew it was such a widespread thing that it was actually able to be the type of content that is able to near exclusively sustain a pretty well populated art site

I mean wow, I feel like I can't really speak out against it, because I feel it would be hypocritical of me as an advocate of the idea that most people are able to make that separation between fantasy and reality, but there are limits, and InkBunny is really pushing it for me.

Weasyl does need more attention. It may not be perfect yet, but it's a damn site better than FA, that's for sure. I've had good, fast responses from the support team, it's visually far nicer than most other places out there, too.

Furrific looks a little too much like FA junior at face-value to be honest. Everything from the ancient looking design to the actual content stream being mostly fetish stuff, at least from what I saw my first look through the door. If the people in charge aren't terrible I might give it a look though, no reason not to try it I guess.

Anyone else here remember Sheezyart? I don't have much to say there I just think SheezyArt's current situation is hilarious, what a travesty. The team in charge obviously had no idea what they were doing, and still don't evidently.

[Guest]

I'm also sort of pissed about this. This totally resonates with me

When I'm not fucking around on furry sites, I'm a professional graphic designer. So yeah, I fuck around on Behance and Dribbble. I'm gearing up for my own site soon, since I've had a couple contracts with small businesses in my city. Obvioulsy I don't want my professional life and personal life mixing, so I keep it at LemonJackelope around tumbls, wozzle, fagaffinity and deviantart. I spread my art just because its something that I ened to literally keep myself afloat. On FA, I only post work that my viewers only have an acount on FA on, and so forth. I'm pissed that I rely on these commissions to live, and I have to stick around on shitty FA to get the most of 'em. 

[Tsuujou]

I feel ya there, and never found much interest in HF to be honest it wasn't the theme i wanted to go with.
Haven't tried Furrific yet, should tho there is a dwindling number of sites that are worth being on these days.

I left HF when I saw how others were treated attempting to submit work. The forums are filled with the most exclusive people I've ever seen in my life of using art sites. There's hugboxes like Sofurry, then you have elitists and I'm debating which is worse.

I remember when I first discovered InkBunny. made an account for the sake of claiming my name there before I even really looked at the content.
I knew there were people with cub fetishes out there, but I never knew it was such a widespread thing that it was actually able to be the type of content that is able to near exclusively sustain a pretty well populated art site

I mean wow, I feel like I can't really speak out against it, because I feel it would be hypocritical of me as an advocate of the idea that most people are able to make that separation between fantasy and reality, but there are limits, and InkBunny is really pushing it for me.

Weasyl does need more attention. It may not be perfect yet, but it's a damn site better than FA, that's for sure. I've had good, fast responses from the support team, it's visually far nicer than most other places out there, too.

Furrific looks a little too much like FA junior at face-value to be honest. Everything from the ancient looking design to the actual content stream being mostly fetish stuff, at least from what I saw my first look through the door. If the people in charge aren't terrible I might give it a look though, no reason not to try it I guess.

Anyone else here remember Sheezyart? I don't have much to say there I just think SheezyArt's current situation is hilarious, what a travesty. The team in charge obviously had no idea what they were doing, and still don't evidently.

I'll admit. I have little hope for Furrific. They don't seem to have a goal, don't care for quality standards, and they do need to fix their design. I did mention this in their forums and on of the admins quickly replied telling me it's to be updated in the future. I don't have much issue with an ugly site because it works for one and two it has some swell features going for it like multi-uploads being the main thing I love. I'm probably just being optimistic. I'll give it a year for any major change then decide if I care to stay. InkBunny I gave a day before I quit out of disgust. Tagging be damned. There was so much untagged cub and reporting that is pointless with the sheer volume of soiled diapers and 3 year old genitals I was bombarded with on the front page. Disgusting. I'm not using a site whose community grosses me out to the point of not even wanting to browse the FRONT PAGE. That's ridiculous.

I'm also sort of pissed about this. This totally resonates with me

When I'm not fucking around on furry sites, I'm a professional graphic designer. So yeah, I fuck around on Behance and Dribbble. I'm gearing up for my own site soon, since I've had a couple contracts with small businesses in my city. Obvioulsy I don't want my professional life and personal life mixing, so I keep it at LemonJackelope around tumbls, wozzle, fagaffinity and deviantart. I spread my art just because its something that I ened to literally keep myself afloat. On FA, I only post work that my viewers only have an acount on FA on, and so forth. I'm pissed that I rely on these commissions to live, and I have to stick around on shitty FA to get the most of 'em. 

I'm not yet ready for the professional life so I have to stick to the various playgrounds unfortunately. The experiences are getting worse. I could be here all day about the communities of each site, but the last thing I need is management shitting in their own bed.

[Kaizy]

Yeah, I've had the same issues with art sites. Nabyn's invite-only beta has been going for years and it's stupid, the site is pretty much not going anywhere. Weasyl, as nice as it is, just doesn't have a large enough community to get it going to its real potential. I loved Inkbunny before FA banned cub porn and the fucking cubfurs took it over (I still swear to god that was a planned attack from FA to take out it's competition because the timing was too perfect). SoFurry is just...no thanks. Furrific has potential, though the layout is a bit clunky, but they need the audience or they'll just become another Weasyl.

I mostly just use Tumblr for my art since I have a decent following there. FA is like my secondary site that I use reluctantly since the other options suck.

[Kaedal]

Weasyl is an incredibly solid and well constructed site, that just lacks the activity to make it good. It still does have plenty of activity, but it's nowhere near the constant-use that Furaffinity has. It's closer to a small forum. A handful of users and artists keeping it alive and keeping the staff busy. As for SoFurry... It's good for writers, awful for artists. Not much to say beyond that. Oh, I dislike the emphasis on usermade tags that SoFurry has. It just makes it feel cluttered.

[Vae]

I just put my NSFW stuff up on Tumblr. I have a special tagging system, and people have to really go looking to find it, so I don't think I'm going to run into the unwarranted takedown issue.
Those who want it either know how to find it, or they just ask me directly for it.

Also that link in the OP doesn't work.


EDIT: And on that note, I really wish Wzl wasn't so dead, so furry-centric, and their tagging and format systems weren't really weird.
Otherwise, I'd probably invest more time there.

Furrific is just... really ugly to me. Like super ugly. Like 2002 ugly.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Vae

[Charrio]

Also that link in the OP doesn't work.

It did when posted, odd that now it's strangely gone.

[Kaedal]

EDIT: And on that note, I really wish Wzl wasn't so dead, so furry-centric, and their tagging and format systems weren't really weird.
Otherwise, I'd probably invest more time there.

Furrific is just... really ugly to me. Like super ugly. Like 2002 ugly.

... That's the first time I've heard them described as that. Aren't they accused of being too general? Or is that ironic?

[Wolflich]

... That's the first time I've heard them described as that. Aren't they accused of being too general? Or is that ironic?

The operators might wish it was but the content sure isn't. Full of furry stuff and full of fetish stuff—and worst of all, the lack of categories to browse means that new members need to become familiar with the tags and know what to block. So it's not going to attract a lot of not-furries, I think, when they have to wade through that.

[Kaedal]

The operators might wish it was but the content sure isn't. Full of furry stuff and full of fetish stuff—and worst of all, the lack of categories to browse means that new members need to become familiar with the tags and know what to block. So it's not going to attract a lot of not-furries, I think, when they have to wade through that.

That's a very valid complaint. I don't think they necessarily mean to attract non-furries, either. It seems to me like they sprung primarily to service those that left FA during one of the great migrations, though.

[Caretaker]

I fear that the bigger issue is that none of the competing options (to FA) are making it clear what distinguishes them from the others. It feels to me like they're trying to be "the next FA" instead of finding something good and focusing on doing that better than anyone else.

To add insult to injury, the bigger ones require you to create a local account so as a customer, you might need to register and maintain several accounts and content repositories depending on where your social circle and preferred artists have decided to set up.

 

I am quite happy that there is a choice, a monoculture has never been a good thing, and while SoFurry is historically a writers haunt (and that is why I use it) if you are a writer you won't be put out by cripplingly bad tools if you choose to use Weasyl instead or in addition. Likewise if you are on Weasyl or Inkbunny and want to repost art to SoFurry, you have that facility and it is not that bad.

[Wolflich]

That's a very valid complaint. I don't think they necessarily mean to attract non-furries, either. It seems to me like they sprung primarily to service those that left FA during one of the great migrations, though.

They might have, but I don't think it was a very good idea. If they can't convince a useful amount of people to swap and they can't attract many new members they'll just have to rely on FA finally dropping dead.

[Hewge]

It is pretty wack. It makes me reluctant to want to upload content anywhere, or try new places out D:

[Summercat]

I have an idea for an art site, and how to make it unique and stand out

But I would need money and to convince coder type people to build it for me, possibly with the money I would be using to set up the other services.

[FlynnCoyote]

I use a lot of sites for two reasons, one because if one site fails I'm not scrambling to set up elsewhere, and two because not everyone will use every site and I like to maintain channels and options where I can. So, FA, Weasyl, IB, SF, shit even dA I still have active accounts on.

[Tsuujou]

I just put my NSFW stuff up on Tumblr. I have a special tagging system, and people have to really go looking to find it, so I don't think I'm going to run into the unwarranted takedown issue.
Those who want it either know how to find it, or they just ask me directly for it.

Also that link in the OP doesn't work.


EDIT: And on that note, I really wish Wzl wasn't so dead, so furry-centric, and their tagging and format systems weren't really weird.
Otherwise, I'd probably invest more time there.

Furrific is just... really ugly to me. Like super ugly. Like 2002 ugly.

Yeah, I removed the link from my blog and forgot to fix it here. Sorry. I'll do it later when I'm not on my phone. 

Edited September 26, 2015 by XoPachi

[Guest]

I have an idea for an art site, and how to make it unique and stand out

But I would need money and to convince coder type people to build it for me, possibly with the money I would be using to set up the other services.

Hit me up on skype and tell me. I could do mockups of the site. Just as a cool thing to do. 

[Summercat]

Hit me up on skype and tell me. I could do mockups of the site. Just as a cool thing to do. 

Can you do backend design, though?

[Guest]

Can you do backend design, though?

Only very basic HTML. I web design front end stuff, predominantly. 

[Ratmomma]

I love Weasyl, despite is low traffic. It has a lot of potential, and I'm hopeful that it'll pick up traffic. I've already seen a surge in members since I signed up, and that's awesome. 

Sofurry I like as well, because I love the layout and the design of the site, and it has a mass upload option. I don't use it nearly as much as Weasyl, however.

Inkbunny... I'm on the fence with. I HATE HATE HATE the cub porn bull, and it seems to leak at all edges of that site. My blocked tag list is damn overflowing as a result. They've got a good design and some neat options, but I think that the cub porn stuff keeps a LOT of people away. I know that my work doesn't get much over 3 views, and that's because it's not fetish material. Clean work doesn't get squat for attention.

Furaffinity is just a train wreck, which is abundantly obvious. I only post teaser images to that site now, and link the full images in the description. FA is crap, and now a wannabe SL clone owns it.

[Tsuujou]

Ok, here's the original link from the OP before I removed it from my blog. The author's account is highly NSFW so don't venture too far unless you like Pokemon girls getting their assholes crammed.

Edited September 26, 2015 by XoPachi

[Caretaker]

I only post teaser images to that site now, and link the full images in the description. FA is crap, and now a wannabe SL clone owns it.

I used to grumble when artists did that, mostly because I didn't want to be pushed into signing up on, yet another site, with a completely unknown administration.

Which raises a question: Would it really be so difficult, technically, to implement a trusted single-signon arrangement?

[Ratmomma]

I used to grumble when artists did that, mostly because I didn't want to be pushed into signing up on, yet another site, with a completely unknown administration.

Which raises a question: Would it really be so difficult, technically, to implement a trusted single-signon arrangement?

My hope is that people will see the whole image and then hopefully consider me for their next commissioned artist ^^; I'd rather not post my work on FA with how things are going there. I don't mind if my customer does, but I refuse to right now.

And I don't think it would be difficult to implement that, but the problem would be with site admins and with hackers, because if your account got hacked, access across the board would be revoked for the user that actually owns the accounts.

[Ruggy]

I feel this.

I really want FA to just fall over so the userbase goes SOMEWHERE, I don't even really care where. I just want it to be somewhere else. 

I hate how huge dA is and I don't feel particularly inclined to use another art site where I can't post my full body of work. (Which does include outright adult artwork.) Weasyl is... if not a ghost town, then a small town where all the regulars know each other already and not much happens. And I just can't seem to make myself pay too much attention to SoFurry. (InkBunny I pretty much just have an account on so nobody decides that 'Ruggy' is the perfect name for their cub fetish porn artwork account.)

I do have a self-hosted site to put my artwork on (which badly needs to be revamped; I am better at front-end coding than design work) but, I mean, I really do actually like having an active community to interact with on art sites. Like what FA has.

I just hate that it's on FA.

[Caretaker]

And to add further complication, Varka's FurryNetwork is at the invite-only beta stage right now and when it launches I can expect the majority of my social circle to setup shop there and migrate from FA so the future will be interesting to watch indeed.

People avoid FA for the obvious reasons.
People avoid SoFurry for reasons including: the user interface, the community, the permitted content.
People avoid Inkbunny for its reputation of being cub-friendly.
People avoid Weasyl for it's past issues maybe, I've not heard any particular reasons other than apathy.

I could see anybody that takes any issues at all with Bad Dragon, avoiding FurryNetwork but I expect to see my whole social circle jump there and it standing to be primarily populated with dragons.

[Kaedal]

I could see anybody that takes any issues at all with Bad Dragon, avoiding FurryNetwork but I expect to see my whole social circle jump there and it standing to be primarily populated with dragons.

One of the first complaints I saw about Bad Dragon was something along the lines of, "Do you really want to entrust a peddler of such goods with your personal information?". It's one of the lamest excuses I have heard. Bad Dragon has a stake in that. Unlike FurAffinity, they're running a business that involves keeping their consumers anonymous and their information safe. If they went and started misusing peoples information from FurryNetwork, it would quickly result in people dropping them in favour of other exotic rubber cocksmiths.

[Caretaker]

One of the first complaints I saw about Bad Dragon was something along the lines of, "Do you really want to entrust a peddler of such goods with your personal information?". It's one of the lamest excuses I have heard. Bad Dragon has a stake in that. Unlike FurAffinity, they're running a business that involves keeping their consumers anonymous and their information safe. If they went and started misusing peoples information from FurryNetwork, it would quickly result in people dropping them in favour of other exotic rubber cocksmiths.

It is a lame excuse, I would trust them with the minimum of personal data needed to setup an account. I don't take issue with Bad Dragon itself or it's employees but I am biased in that I know most of them personally so that does go a long way.

I am keen to see them exit out of beta (or toss me a code) so I can take a closer look.

[Signy]

One of the first complaints I saw about Bad Dragon was something along the lines of, "Do you really want to entrust a peddler of such goods with your personal information?". It's one of the lamest excuses I have heard. Bad Dragon has a stake in that. Unlike FurAffinity, they're running a business that involves keeping their consumers anonymous and their information safe. If they went and started misusing peoples information from FurryNetwork, it would quickly result in people dropping them in favour of other exotic rubber cocksmiths.

They've also had several scandals including a staff member who lost his position at a water park for raping dolphins (and circulating a movie of doing so) and a major shareholder being investigated for raping a former partner. 

[Charrio]

They've also had several scandals including a staff member who lost his position at a water park for raping dolphins (and circulating a movie of doing so) and a major shareholder being investigated for raping a former partner. 

Wait lost his position at the Water Park but not at Bad Dragon?
Wow

[Kaedal]

They've also had several scandals including a staff member who lost his position at a water park for raping dolphins (and circulating a movie of doing so) and a major shareholder being investigated for raping a former partner. 

I'd like a link to a news article about that, because that sounds juicy as fuck. I need my dose of juicy news.

[AshleyAshes]

They've also had several scandals including a staff member who lost his position at a water park for raping dolphins (and circulating a movie of doing so) and a major shareholder being investigated for raping a former partner. 

What the fuck?  I missed that news. D:  Link?

[Signy]

I'm out and about right now, but I'll see what I can dig up when I get home. Most of it is a few years old now, but I think I remember a few of the places where I read about that stuff. 

[Signy]

Most the following links are NSFW, invovle rape, bestiality and other awful things.

Shane's account of being raped by Kamo (and dogs), and more about it here and here. Kamo is actually the CEO, not a mere share holder as I originally recalled, and is also being accused of raping pets. A police report was filed and more than one victim was said to have come forward  to join Shane's case. 

Most of the places that link to the Drakkor dolphin rape are long gone. I found a journal (and a vivisector thread) from 2010 mentioning it, but it was old news even then. This happened years ago - iirc, like 2005. Apparently, it was a SeaWorld in Europe he was fired from. There was a hi-res photo that led to him being fired, and there was a video (and a gif made from that video) circulating around when it happened. I think there was a claim that it was hosted on BD servers, but I could be wrong and can't substantiate that.

But BD has also runs a forum for beastilaity, has tons of issues with customer service/quality control (and some forum drama is added in that list), has a tell-all from a former employee, was accused of design theft (and then sued the guy over it), and plenty of other unsavory claims against them. 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Signy

[Charrio]

Why do people put up with abuse like that?
Seriously, makes me hate them both just for allowing it to happen.

I really don't get it, oh he only RAPED my dog he didn't mean it.
Fuck that, what the hell!

Edited September 26, 2015 by Charrio

[Guest]

Wait, tumblr has an anti NSFW policy? I thought it allowed porn no problem

[Charrio]

Wait, tumblr has an anti NSFW policy? I thought it allowed porn no problem

That's what I thought, but haven't been on in months

[Summercat]

There's usually something majorly wrong with all the alternatives. Personally don't think I'd go to another Varka-run site for most of my stuff, although if there's enough userbase I'll certainly advertise there.

[Sidhenearlahi]

Wait, tumblr has an anti NSFW policy? I thought it allowed porn no problem

For the most part it does but they do have a few guidelines pertaining to NSFW content and the blogs that host it.

In particular, one there that many people tend to ignore is the sexually explicit video bulletpoint. A lot of people ignore this, and a lot of other people are then easily able to exploit Tumblr's TERRIBLE automated takedown systems by mass reporting blogs that might be hosting explicit videos.

Having said that, even if a blog isn't hosting any such videos, the automated system and terrible moderator support is still heavily exploitable, so some blogs have been hit by raids of mass content reporting that have resulted in blogs being unfairly taken down.

[Tsuujou]

I can honestly say there is a serious bias against NSFW artists due to the ability to report for phony reasons and get results swiftly. There was a malicious troll who claimed Noill was drawing child porn when all he did was draw a little girl in perfectly reasonable workout wear. I don't even think she was a little girl. Just a smaller woman. BANNED. 

PornoMagnum was also banned for no reason recently but he had his blog appealed which is ridiculous that people had to do such a thing. Most of the time its asshurt Tumbltards claiming abuse because they don't want to use filters but instead try to force stupid ass fabricated tags like "Stephen Galaxy" on their work. 

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

For the most part it does but they do have a few guidelines pertaining to NSFW content and the blogs that host it.

 

Man, if Tumblr wants to be taken seriously, they need to shape the fuck up and start being more professional. Calling the people reading it a "Dick" and saying "it's fucking expensive" is incredibly unprofessional.

[Hewge]

Man, if Tumblr wants to be taken seriously, they need to shape the fuck up and start being more professional. Calling the people reading it a "Dick" and saying "it's fucking expensive" is incredibly unprofessional.

Or maybe you just need a better sense of humour

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

Or maybe you just need a better sense of humour

I have a sense of humor, but that shit was really unnecessary.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Sidewalk Surfboard

[Kaedal]

Man, if Tumblr wants to be taken seriously, they need to shape the fuck up and start being more professional. Calling the people reading it a "Dick" and saying "it's fucking expensive" is incredibly unprofessional.

As long as Tumblr is a home to racists and homophobes, I don't think anyone is going to take them seriously. It's a trash pile for what the rest of the Internet can't use.

[Summercat]

As long as Tumblr is a home to racists and homophobes, I don't think anyone is going to take them seriously. It's a trash pile for what the rest of the Internet can't use.

It's a home to all sorts. My understanding is that unless you go looking for it, content that bothers you doesn't appear.

[Guest]

Why do people put up with abuse like that?
Seriously, makes me hate them both just for allowing it to happen.

I really don't get it, oh he only RAPED my dog he didn't mean it.
Fuck that, what the hell!

Yo, that's shitty. When people are abused, they aren't in their right minds. OP didn't think he freakin' could escape with his issue. Many people think they deserve the abuse they get and stay. If it was so freakin' easy for people to just 'walk away' from abuse, there would be no such thing as abusive relationships. 

[Charrio]

Yo, that's shitty. When people are abused, they aren't in their right minds. OP didn't think he freakin' could escape with his issue. Many people think they deserve the abuse they get and stay. If it was so freakin' easy for people to just 'walk away' from abuse, there would be no such thing as abusive relationships. 

I'm sorry if I offended was not my intent.
I was in a state of revulsion and offense so my emotions were high.
As to the psychology behind it, I will have to study that so I can get a further grasp on it.

[VLZerda]

I hate how little options for decent hosting sites there are, and I feel like I missed my window to really try to get my name out there.

One day I want to be a big enough name I could work an artists alley and not worry about whether I will lose money, break even, or gain profit, but it's next to impossible to get commissions, heck, even getting someone to just comment more than nice would be fine.

I know there are a lot of ways to get more people looking at your stuff, but really, I just try to post once a day.

I hate to say it, but being a sfw only artist on FA seems to be a deal breaker, and drawing furry related things on DA is way past it's time. As for the rest, good luck getting anyone to say anything.

[Kaedal]

It's a home to all sorts. My understanding is that unless you go looking for it, content that bothers you doesn't appear.

That is the case, yes. Unfortunately, the stuff that gets the most exposure outside of Tumblr is the undesirable shit. You don't ever see a link to a Tumblr based around "Twenty Ways to Improve Your Cooking". Nope. You see "Twenty Ways Your Heterosexual Male Friend Is Destroying Your Life". God damn it. None of my straight male friends have destroyed my life. Stop trying to make me think they are, idiots.

... Which is pretty far from my point anyway, so I kinda screwed my own argument over there.