Why Millennials are So Stressed Out (a libertarian's take)

[Rassah]

Original article link here http://fee.org/articles/wake-up-and-make-money/ I'm a big fan on this guy and his talks represent the general sentiment of the libertarian/anarchist movement. And this topic really bugs me personally, where I wish I could help, and I'm sure many people here, who are millennials, are affected by.

 

Wake Up, You Need To Make Money

by Jeffrey Tucker

Friday, March 11, 2016

There is no shortage of complaints about millennials. You bump into them everywhere. But maybe it is time to think carefully about what makes this generation’s frustrations so distinctive, even understandable.

To grasp the frustrations, even despair, of the twentysomethings, you could cite vast data on unemployment, low wages, shattered friend networks, boomerang living arrangements, and frustrated hopes. In this respect, millennials are suffering the most, losing jobs even as every other age group is gaining them.

Or you could just turn on the radio and hear it for yourself. Pop music has always provided revealing insight into the minds of its consumers.

Reflect, for example, on this line from a song rising in the charts right now: “Out of student loans and treehouse homes we all would take the latter.”

Treehouses? They are charming, the stuff of fond childhood memories. The simple joys of childhood are looking pretty great to this highly educated generation. In the past, this age group revelled in youth and looked to an awesome future. Now we see signs of a bizarre atavism settling in among today's young adults.

Dreaming of Infancy

The song is “Stressed Out” by “Twenty One Pilots.” It captures the mood of the moment. The most memorable motif is this recurring sentiment: “Wish we could turn back time, to the good ol’ days.”

And what are those days? Sometime between infancy and adulthood, “when our momma sang us to sleep.” These were times of safety, material provision, no real responsibility, and fun. This contrasts with their bleak prospects  immediately following college. “Now we’re stressed out,” the lyrics lament.

Why stressed out? Students loans, for sure. They have sat in classrooms for 16 years to prepare, making them the most studied generation in American history. And yet, where’s the payoff? Where is the fabulous status that they expected? It turns out that they entered the workforce with no relevant experience, which means they lack a realistic conception about what it means to provide more value in than you take out of a company. And once they do manage to make money, the bulk of what remains after taxes (to pay for systems they will never use) goes toward paying interest on the student loan.

But in a larger sense, the longing for a bygone era is about the perception of progress. Can we expect to be richer, more comfortable, and more secure than our parents? Or is the trajectory of history getting worse? These questions awaken our inner eschatologist and shape our understanding of our place in history. What we believe about the future affects our behavior and ideology in the present.

Make Money

The song continues: “Used to dream of outer space but now they’re laughing at our face, Saying, ‘wake up, you need to make money.’”

Once-happy dreams of the stellar future have become the drudgery of the mundane present. The song contains an underlying theme of resentment over having been conned. “I was told when I get older all my fears would shrink; but now I’m insecure and I care what people think.”

It is tempting to snap at this generational attitude with a bit of condescension. “oor, coddled babies; welcome to the real world!” And yet, this dismissal misses the mark. Millennials might be spoiled in ways no generation ever has been, and, yet, they are also the generation most misled and victimized by the civic pieties of their youth.

They once believed that there must be a point to  sitting for a decade and a half in classrooms, where they listen to “experts” and are judged mainly on their ability to comply with instructions. Surely the reward will come around someday. Yet after all this, it turns out that there is no real payoff. The market value of their work is assessed by an entirely different standard. The skill set demanded by the market is completely different from the one they developed in school.

The Appeal of Socialism

To understand this is to see why college students are drawn to the rhetoric and agenda of Bernie Sanders. He promises to wipe away their loans and make remaining college classes free. Then he provides a scapegoat for their economic fears by demonizing the millionaires and billionaires, as if to say “there’s the money; let’s go and get it.” It’s a campaign fueled by fear and rooted in envy, but it resonates with a generation that perceives itself to be snookered and victimized.

The critical questions: who is really to blame? What should be done about it? Here is where no one is telling the truth. The twentysomethings face bleak job prospects because they  lack real-world experience and have not built a robust network to tap for viable entry positions with a future. This dearth of opportunity  results from having been forcibly cloistered their whole lives, and sealed off from any remunerative work. This is what cultivates a mindset unprepared to deal with real-world work.

The high costs of college make it impossible to “work your way through school” as previous generations did. Labor regulation effectively outlaws young people from working in any case. And a sticky job market makes millennials an expensive risk for any employer.

This is not the fault of loan sharks or billionaires. It’s the fault of bad public policy: the creation of legal restrictions hampering young people from becoming acculturated to commercial life in an organic way. They aren’t allowed in, and by the time they are, they have developed other interests. Instead, they are tossed out into a cold, cruel world -- about which they know nothing -- at the old age of 22, equipped with nothing but paper entitlements bearing little  genuine market value.

The prolonged infantilization of millennials is underscored by the drinking-age laws: surely the least-obeyed laws in the country apart from speed limits. People underestimate the social signalling of such laws. Society tells young adults they can’t be trusted to have a beer or a glass of wine with dinner, and conveying the message that they are immature. They drink anyway, without social supervision, and do so in the most immature way imaginable.

Adulthood is delayed and delayed in the material world, even as it comes hard and fast in the digital world where age barely matters at all. They are at once the most educated and most technologically sophisticated generation as well as the most ignorant and naive  in terms of monetizing their knowledge in the real world. This has created dissonance in self-understanding among this generation. When they are finally free of school and its restrictions, prohibitions, and debilitations, they are sent out into an unfamiliar adult world, unsure whether they are young or old, and told to fend for themselves.

Would this lead to the onset of demoralization? Absolutely.

What should really stress them out is not work as such, but policies that have denied them an integrated life experience with hopeful forward motion. Government policies are a terrible replacement for mama’s song and for the security and comfort of childhood. The answer is not to return to the good ‘ol days, but progress toward a society of freedom and opportunity.

 

Jeffrey Tucker is Director of Digital Development at FEE and CLO of the startup Liberty.me. Author of five books, and many thousands of articles, he speaks at FEE summer seminars and other events. His latest book is Bit by Bit: How P2P Is Freeing the World.  Follow on Twitter and Like on Facebook.Email. 

[AlastairSnowpaw]

The whole thing about drinking came out of nowhere and feels really forced in. But yea the big problem is shitty education systems that care more about test scores and our society basically work shaming.

[FenrirDarkWolf]

Basically how I feel

[Butters]

Rassah, sometimes I wonder if you were a snake oil salesman from the Great Depression reincarnated. 

 

[Yarra]

A jibba jabba and a ratta tat tat. 

[willow]

while I really don't want to owe the government money, I'm not that stressed out about my loans because mine are really small in comparison to some other people I know. I could actually have mine paid off within five years.

what actually stresses me out right now about college is that my state is slowly losing its funding for education and the pending budget cuts to higher education could affect both my job as well as my financial aid, which is the only thing that makes college "free" for me. schools are already shutting down and teachers are being laid off so it's only a matter of time I feel like.

[PastryOfApathy]

I'm not gonna lie, "a libertarian's take" is probably one of the worst ways I can thing of to make me want to read something. Only thing worse would probably be the phrase "By Rassah."

2 hours ago, Butters said:

Rassah, sometimes I wonder if you were a snake oil salesman from the Great Depression reincarnated. 

Nah he doesn't need to reincarnate as a snake oil salesmen from the 30's. There's plenty of 'em still around, except they're shilling "herbal supplements" and ways that you can like totally never have to pay taxes I swear guys.

[MalletFace]

Alright. I'll take the bait.

While the author sounds sincere, his analysis seems to rely more on the song than the real world. He went from doing a high school-level close-listening to soapbox stumping.

His arguments both state and imply that

• laws limited the ability of millennials to gain work experience
• experience is inherently more valuable than formal education,
• lack of network building is prevalent among and hindering to millennials, and
• millennials feel victimized but are attacking in the wrong places.

I would agree that these things would cause me to be stressed, but is this really the case? I doubt it, so I'll go digging.

Laws: I am not sure where he is coming from in terms of laws; the only law he directly mentions is about drinking-age. If he's talking about the Fair Labor Standards Act, then he is a little off. There is little in there that did not apply to anyone in the Boomers or Generation X. Even more, the law is not even that limiting.

It is reasonable to despise New Deal legislation if you hold this mindset, but that does not mean this abhorrence is reasonable if you are attempting to speak without bias. The act allowed very young minors to work in family businesses and older ones to work in non-hazardous jobs; though, there was something about it that pissed off many adults - the act was supposed to make it harder for children to forgo their education and take an adult's job, but the act failed to make it difficult to employ a child. The major concerns were that children could be payed much lower wages, and that children did not necessarily have the same rights as adult workers. Both of those things still stand as they applied to the Boomers.

Here's the text for that act if you'd like to look at what it actually does. Most of the amendments to it have not impacted children directly. The ones that have are just increases on minimum wage that apply to everyone but children until after the amendment adding training wage. They may still be payed less even with that.

If he was talking about some other acts that impact minors in the workforce, I'd like to know about them. Other than this, the U.S. has barely changed anything impacting children; they barely even agreed with the U.N., and no formal action was taken domestically after they did.

Experience vs. Education: I have no idea where this comes from, but I would guess that it would have to do with how statistics are read and how anecdotal accounts are interpreted.

When you compare millennials to older generations, you will tend to see something very different than when you compare millennials to millennials. You face the same problem when you try to compare boomers to the generation before them or the silents to the ones before them; the world changes by the hand of the people who came before.

Ever since the early '50s when the data was regularly recorded, those with a higher education and no experience are more likely to be employed in a job - especially a well-paying job - than those without an education.

One can look, then, to the economic problems of 2008 to present for recent and relevant information. You can take a real quick look at information gathered by the National Center for Education Statistics and find that for those 20-24 (Millennials) from the year 2000 to 2014, unemployment was the lowest for those with a degree or some college experience than it was for those without. Even more, the impact of the crisis in 2008 was felt less by those with some college or a full degree than those without.

This doesn't apply to just millennials, though. Unemployment tends to become less likely as education increases for all individuals. The BLS even shows us that - for those 25 and over in 2014 - the unemployment for persons without a high school diploma was 9%. For those with a bachelor's, it was less than half. It even shows that those that stayed within high school had a 3% lower unemployment rate. This would be odd if experience were more important than education in finding a good job, as those that leave high school are still bound by the same labor regulations as their peers in school. For example, an enrolled student and a dropout both cannot work over a certain number of hours, during the school day, or after certain hours during the school week.

Why, then, does good education correlate with low unemployment?

Most employers do care more about experience than pure academics; however, experiences within academia can often be exactly what they are looking for. This is where many of those without the understanding of millennials and younger tend to falter, especially if they have been away from college for the past few decades.

Network Building: Higher education has changed from the days of the Boomers. While schools used to focus mainly on academics, schools are increasingly allowing, urging, and compelling students to intern, volunteer, and join clubs.

Most of the schools in my state require internships for most programs, and this is similar in many other states. Even many associate's degrees require observation and experience on the job - something that has been approved by the state government as a part of our public articulation agreement no less. Clubs run by the schools also tend to require volunteering in general and internships if the club is focused on a career. For example, clubs from the Pre-Pharmacy Club to the International Socialist Organization at UNC Asheville require volunteer work for membership.

Do internships and volunteering really matter, though? Absolutely.

I know of few places within NC's Research Triangle Park, for example, that would hire any-ole-guy with experience in the field over a guy from Duke that interned with them during their classes. I know of few firms in Charlotte that would hire just any gal from another company over a gal that interned with them while studying economics at UNC Charlotte. I know of few veterinary practices across the whole state, even, that would hire the best vets from around the world over the kid that just volunteered there while studying veterinary medicine at NC State.

Some places even like to let students work while in school, too.

Millennials Victimized:  I will admit that I've seen a lot of millennials frustrated by student loans, but I have seen many things millennials are more passionate about that draws them to Bernie. I doubt that many would have backed Trump if he offered the same solution as Bernie. In fact, here's a list of things millennials tend to agree with him on:

• Climate change
• LGBTQ rights
• Immigration
• War
• Race
• Citizens United
• Veterans' issues
• Social Security
• Medicare
• Foreign Trade

The author did come so close, though. He started by acting like he was going to empathize with millennials and then turned around to make a political statement going the opposite direction. He even acted like he was citing data, but he just linked to a home building cite that disagreed with his reasons for millennials' stress and an infographic that pretty much tells you what millennials are, that they are likely to have student loans, and that they make less money than those older than them.

I guess him turning around so quickly makes sense. I've seen all kinds of posts about politics of his all over the place despite him having writting "I pay VERY little attention to politics. I hate those debate things. Politicians are marionettes. The enemy is the state and the politicians are not the state. They are just dancers, entertainers, jokers, fools, frauds, hucksters. They turn my stomach. So I don't bother with them."

At least Rassah is branching out in people he pays attention to. This guy did found the CryptoCurrency Conference, is an anarchist, and loves P2P, but at least he's a devout Catholic. Good on you for supporting the views of people you disagree with, man.

[#00Buck]

Gender Studies Degree = Unemployed. 

The older generation mostly had to choose from skills that are actually useful in life. 

[MalletFace]

10 minutes ago, #00Buck said:

Gender Studies Degree = Unemployed. 

The older generation mostly had to choose from skills that are actually useful in life. 

Most degrees around now were around with the boomers. The only time the degrees were substantially different was from 1900 and back. They were even less focused on real skills back when they first started, but employment after graduation at those schools was essentially guaranteed.

Ah... Back in the good old days when you could learn Church Latin and be exempt from the law.

[Endless/Nameless]

I just think the guy made a lot of good observations, but failed to make a point. 

[Strongbob]

I think the point is that the baby boom generation is the root of most of our current problems and we will be much better off when they are all dead, or maybe that's just my rant.

[Pignog]

piss

[Kinharia]

Don't normally agree with you on topics but I find quite a few points made in the quoted article to be quite good and well researched. My generation was conned big time "There is no violence, there is a happy future" yea never mind we were born at the tail end of a civil war that still has a lot of hate lingering around. American's have it a hell of a lot easier than some of us Europeans believe me. Irish, Southern and Eastern European youths have been conned big time.

[Lucyfish]

While I agree with the fact that most of these problems are because of bad policies on the side of the public and the government, at the source we have to think about who creates and influences these laws. The government isn't a thoughtless entity, it's made up of actual people. Those people have some burden of blame to carry because of the state of things, and more often than not it's the rich and powerful who have the most influence over these decisions. Not all the time, of course, but a very large percentage of the time. Opportunities for young people to gain work experience are indeed dying away, making it near impossible for someone coming out of high school to get any experience. There has to be a root to that problem, and one could say that the root is bad public policy but public policy has to be made by SOMEONE. Someone came up and said "I think it's a good idea to charge up the ass for college and make it nearly impossible to work through it so that the student stays in debt and we make more money." Odds are that person was a money-centric fellow.

Politics these days is a big money business.

[#00Buck]

9 hours ago, MalletFace said:

Most degrees around now were around with the boomers. The only time the degrees were substantially different was from 1900 and back. They were even less focused on real skills back when they first started, but employment after graduation at those schools was essentially guaranteed.

Ah... Back in the good old days when you could learn Church Latin and be exempt from the law.

You could study computer science in 1901? Aerospace engineering? Dude. That was horse and buggy time. Back then literacy = a real skill. 

If you want to blame big institutions you can blame big government and the education industrial complex. 

They thing they tell you that everyone needs is actually the thing that drags you down. 

The key is to not dwell on blame.

Get off your ass and change your life. 

Edited March 13, 2016 by #00Buck

[evan]

I am noticing that schools with high post-degree employment are not the best ivy league degrees, but rather the degrees where experience is becoming a uniquely valued part. Eg my current university employs a large percentage of Michigans music educators because they have a heavy basis in mixing academia with praxis.  

 

Part of the reason tuition culture sucks is because people are always pushed to "reputation" schools, whose overall facilities tend to also mean hiked tuition. I think sometimes we then dont pay attention to the vast number of schools who are not "great schools" but have departments that are widely successful.

Edited March 13, 2016 by evan

[Rassah]

14 hours ago, Butters said:

Rassah, sometimes I wonder if you were a snake oil salesman from the Great Depression reincarnated. 

What? Why? I'm honest to a t.

[willow]

1 hour ago, #00Buck said:

You could study computer science in 1901? Aerospace engineering? Dude. That was horse and buggy time. Back then literacy = a real skill.

most universities focused mainly on things like philosophy and rhetoric, logic, music, math, and astronomy as well as grammar since that was the main way people learned how to read and write

and people have been studying aerospace/aeronautics and computer science at least since the 1800's and maybe even earlier. they were a little more conceptual but they at least existed.

[Nordo]

Well shit. I'm just gonna say I agree with Rassah and Buck on this one. But then I'm not a millennial so maybe I "don't get it". However I am on the other side, as an employer I DO value experience over education. When I get a resume full of academic achievements and accolades with glowing references but no actual experience I usually pass. I owe it to the company and my customers to provide them with people they can trust literally with their lives, and a degree doesn't do that. Practical, real world, varied experience does that. Granted my industry is very different than IT for example where book knowledge can be more valuable. The truth is always in the middle and there is always anecdotal "evidence" to back up any position. Ymmv. 

Edited March 13, 2016 by Nordo

[Lucyfish]

50 minutes ago, Nordo said:

Well shit. I'm just gonna say I agree with Rassah and Buck on this one. But then I'm not a millennial so maybe I "don't get it". However I am on the other side, as an employer I DO value experience over education. When I get a resume full of academic achievements and accolades with glowing references but no actual experience I usually pass. I owe it to the company and my customers to provide them with people they can trust literally with their lives, and a degree doesn't do that. Practical, real world, varied experience does that. Granted my industry is very different than IT for example where book knowledge can be more valuable. The truth is always in the middle and there is always anecdotal "evidence" to back up any position. Ymmv. 

I wish more employers thought that way. Most won't bother to even look at your name unless you have some sort of associate's degree. Doesn't even matter if that degree is in the field you're applying for, employers only care if you have some sort of college degree.

[Luka]

How will one acquire experience, if no one will give them a chance because they have none?

[Rassah]

@MalletFace

Law.

I don't know if the laws for employing minors have changed since the New Deal, but I would be surprised if no new restrictions have been passed since. When I worked way back in mid 90's, I was paid minimum wage in all jobs, and was severely limited on what just bs I could apply to, and how many hours a day and days a week I can work. I suspect things may be even worse now. And even if the change isn't in law, the general stigma ("child labor might get me the n trouble!") contributes to these things too. For instance, it's perfectly legal for restaurants to give away spare food at the end of the day, but var majority of restaurants polled still mistakenly believe that it's against some law.

He also mentioned laws that make it more difficult to hire AND fire people. Those are fairly new, and make businesses think twice before going through the risk and expense of hiring someone who may lack experience. France is an extreme example of those kinds of laws going wrong, where it is extremely difficult to fire someone, and as a result businesses try their best not to hire, and youth unemployment is staggeringly huge, approaching 30%.

And, of course, families owning businesses has become much rarer in the last few decades.

 

Experience vs. Education

He may feel that a lot of the current education is getting progressing worse and teaching fewer and fewer skills actually relevant to the workplace. Or that with so many coming out with "cookie cutter" education, it's simply more difficult to stand out, compared to the time when most people didn't have higher education, and getting a degree was a major deal (a problem free education will NOT solve in any way). I think a lot of it also reflects his views from the next subject...

 

Network Building

In one of his speeches about why he believes schools and laws are horribly unfair to kids, he brought up the point that when you start in primary school, you only hang out with your peers of the same age. You spend 5 to 8 years building relationships and networks... And then that network becomes worthless as you all move to different high schools. Then you start again, building a new network of peers, again same age and just as inexperienced as you... And again, you graduate and that network is worthless. Then you go to university for 4 years, start building another network from scratch, and after four years, you graduate and it's mostly worthless AGAIN. Even if you try to keep that one, most of your peers end up going to careers you're not interested in pursuing, and NO ONE graduates actually skilled enough to help you or offer you a job. Even your internship example is a rare example in colleges, and only offers basically an "employment trial period" for one potential employer. Home schooled children get to study and hang out with kids of different ages, as well as many different adults, and that is one reason why it's believed they grow up actually more skilled and adjusted to adult life. If you look at Millennials today, it's as if they're their own segragated group.

In his speech, he contrasted that with the times before child labor laws, and after, while they weren't as strict, when kids could find employment or help at stores and other small businesses fairly easily. I can't think of such opportunities being around much today (where will kids help out, Walmart?), and I don't think parents have even been raising their kids with that mentality. Add the increasing "stranger danger" hysteria, where adults are no longer allowed to touch kids, talk to them other than for professional reasons, and parents are being overprotective with regards to their kids going to talk or deal with any adults, and that just compiles the problem.

 

Millennials Victimized

Trump is a fascist racist, so comparing people going to Bernie vs Trump isn't a fair comparison. Also, while Tucker's article touched on socialism, specifically how Millennials hope it will solve their problems, I don't think his article was political in regards to the election. In fact, Tucker has written at least a half dozen articles blasting Trump for being a dangerous fascist Nazi. None of the things you mentioned on the list are things Millennials should be stressing over, since Climate change, LGBTQ rights, Immigration, Race, Veterans' issues, Social Security, and Medicare are mostly settled, supported, and unthreatened issues, 

War was "solved" when we elected an anti-war liberal into office 8 years ago (right?)

Citizens United I guess maybe, but it doesn't affect their lack of employment, and can't be fixed without amending the Constitution, since it's a free speech issue, and

Foreign Trade is something most of them (most people in general) don't even understand, or think about.

I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't touch of any actual issues that Millennials are turning against, and issues they SHOUKD be focusing but ignoring. But maybe that's beyond the scope of this thread.

As for Jeffrey, I've known him for years. He's a good friend, and we often hang out whenever we find ourselves in same areas. Not sure why you added "at least Rassah is branching out." I've been reading, and making friends with, quite a few people of his caliber and type over the last 5+ years.

[MalletFace]

3 hours ago, #00Buck said:

You could study computer science in 1901? Aerospace engineering? Dude. That was horse and buggy time. Back then literacy = a real skill.

You could, actually. This was the period in which academia started to get really interested in flight, space travel, computers, modern physics and other "futuristic" sciences.

Other programs of study and classes around today that were also there in some way in 1901 are

• linguistics,
• ethics,
• logic,
• food science,
• Latin literature,
• abstract philosophy,
• theater, and
• Oriental/Near East studies.

But you are also underestimating your ancestors: adult literacy in 1901 was right around 90%, most people finished primary education, and the number of higher degrees being obtained was increasing. Illiterate persons in Europe and North America have been in the minority for centuries; the printing press and liberal revolutions caused that.

3 hours ago, #00Buck said:

The key is to not dwell on blame.

Get off your ass and change your life. 

I am, and so is the majority of the millions of my peers.

For some reason, though, people are ignoring fucktons of data saying that they are.

You know, the data that says the majority of degrees earned are in STEM fields, business, education, and training programs.

You know, the data that says a huge chunk of millennials entering STEM fields are not seeking work because they are working towards a graduate degree.

You know, the data that says millennials are more likely than boomers to enter the skill-focused programs you think are important.

Or even the data I already included, like the information from the BLS that says millennial college graduates are more likely to be employed and make a higher wage than those without a degree, or the information from the National Center for Education Statistics that says millennial college graduates are more likely to be employed and make a higher wage than those without a degree, or even some new information gathered together by the Council of Economic Advisers that says - guess what? - millennial college graduates are more likely to be employed and make a higher wage than those without a degree.

But, hey, millennials are lazy bums that get mad at other people for not giving them what they want. Real easy to say and not so hard as attempting to find an actual problem and address it with an actual solution.

1 minute ago, Rassah said:

As for Jeffrey, I've known him for years. He's a good friend, and we often hang out whenever we find ourselves in same areas. Not sure why you added "at least Rassah is branching out." I've been reading, and making friends with, quite a few people of his caliber and type over the last 5+ years.

I was poking fun at how you usually tend to cite, quote, respect, bring up, and talk well of people that agree with you in most ways. He's a Catholic, and I thought that was odd.

Also, you know the drill; I ain't playing ball unless you give me actual, verifiable, repeatable, broad data and research. Good points if there is something to back it up, though.

[willow]

1 hour ago, Nordo said:

Well shit. I'm just gonna say I agree with Rassah and Buck on this one. But then I'm not a millennial so maybe I "don't get it". However I am on the other side, as an employer I DO value experience over education. When I get a resume full of academic achievements and accolades with glowing references but no actual experience I usually pass. I owe it to the company and my customers to provide them with people they can trust literally with their lives, and a degree doesn't do that. Practical, real world, varied experience does that. Granted my industry is very different than IT for example where book knowledge can be more valuable. The truth is always in the middle and there is always anecdotal "evidence" to back up any position. Ymmv. 

I think part of the problem is that a lot of students are told to focus on doing things that will make them "marketable" after college rather than trying to get the real world practice. no one's exactly told how to get internships, only that they're there and they're beneficial to you. though some majors/schools require it to graduate. 

[Rassah]

3 hours ago, Lucyfish said:

While I agree with the fact that most of these problems are because of bad policies on the side of the public and the government, at the source we have to think about who creates and influences these laws.

This is where I believe most of the disagreement between myself and many others on this forum stems from. While we all agree that there are many bad policies on the side of the public and government, we (myself and most others) disagree strongly on WHO creates those problems, and thus how to fix them (or if that's even possible).

3 hours ago, Lucyfish said:

The government isn't a thoughtless entity, it's made up of actual people. Those people have some burden of blame to carry because of the state of things, and more often than not it's the rich and powerful who have the most influence over these decisions. Not all the time, of course, but a very large percentage of the time.

Like this for example. I would argue that no, it's ALL the time. It's pretty much all because of the rich and powerful having total influence over state decisions, all the time, even down to who wins elections. That's why I no longer believe that simply voting for better people is a viable strategy. Obama running and winning on the platform if an end to wars, and continuing them while being exposed as a single largest recipient of donations from the country's biggest banks, somewhat sealed that for me.

But at least even though we may disagree on the "why," we generally agree on the "what."

32 minutes ago, Lucyfish said:

I wish more employers thought that way. Most won't bother to even look at your name unless you have some sort of associate's degree. Doesn't even matter if that degree is in the field you're applying for, employers only care if you have some sort of college degree.

Maybe you can change what kind of employers and type of employment you seek? Sometimes if the field you're looking for is too saturated (basic IT for me) or doesn't pay enough (microbiology for both my parents), it's time to switch career goals.

28 minutes ago, Luka said:

How will one acquire experience, if no one will give them a chance because they have none?

That's the problem Jeffrey Tucker is writing about. Currently it's too risky to give young people experience, while it didn't used to be.

@MalletFace My parents are also Catholic, and I used to be one too. Nobody's perfect. But unlike stereotypical Catholics, Jeffrey doesn't seem to care about sexuality issues (LGBTQ). Frankly, practically all of Italy is too, but no one cares about those either outside if the Vatican walls (sorry, just personal experience for that one).

Edited March 13, 2016 by Rassah

[Troj]

17 hours ago, AlastairSnowpaw said:

The whole thing about drinking came out of nowhere and feels really forced in. But yea the big problem is shitty education systems that care more about test scores and our society basically work shaming.

And meanwhile:

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/03/10/469831485/americas-high-school-graduates-look-like-other-countries-high-school-dropouts

The general consensus is that Millennials were raised to believe that they could "be anything" if they just "believed," because they were "special."

When the recession hit, that happy little story that had been told to countless Millennials by their Boomer parents and teachers fell apart, and the Millennials have been picking up the pieces ever since.

While their expectations for reality and themselves have sometimes been overly high or excessively sunny, Millennials have a number of very legitimate social and economic grievances which older people are often quick to dismiss or chuckle at, because they're inconvenient and uncomfortable, and addressing them would require older folks to take some responsibility for the choices they've made and the society they've built.

And I'm someone who used to love to bash Millennials, mostly for being pansies and tools.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Troj

[Lucyfish]

24 minutes ago, Rassah said:

This is where I believe most of the disagreement between myself and many others on this forum stems from. While we all agree that there are many bad policies on the side of the public and government, we (myself and most others) disagree strongly on WHO creates those problems, and thus how to fix them (or if that's even possible).

Like this for example. I would argue that no, it's ALL the time. It's pretty much all because of the rich and powerful having total influence over state decisions, all the time, even down to who wins elections. That's why I no longer believe that simply voting for better people is a viable strategy. Obama running and winning on the platform if an end to wars, and continuing them while being exposed as a single largest recipient of donations from the country's biggest banks, somewhat sealed that for me.

But at least even though we may disagree on the "why," we generally agree on the "what."

Maybe you can change what kind of employers and type of employment you seek? Sometimes if the field you're looking for is too saturated (basic IT for me) or doesn't pay enough (microbiology for both my parents), it's time to switch career goals.

Funnily enough you pretty much explained what I feel. So I guess we do agree on the "why" after all, lol.

Also unfortunately the only career I have lots of experience in is sports entertainment, and it'll be a cold day in hell before those guys hire a trans person lol.

[Strongbob]

I really try not to 'blame' the Boomers for the issues that the Millennials experience, but at the same time they did create the environment for our current economic situation, and seem to be oblivious to the results.  Then they accuse the Millennials of being lazy when they have provided the new generation NONE of the benefits they had.  They couldn't maintain education funding or keep wages growing.  Then they complain about the levels of their Social Security and Medicare handouts and expect us to be grateful.  Then they wonder why so many people are disillusioned.    

[willow]

28 minutes ago, Troj said:

And meanwhile:

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/03/10/469831485/americas-high-school-graduates-look-like-other-countries-high-school-dropouts

The general consensus is that Millennials were raised to believe that they could "be anything" if they just "believed," because they were "special."

When the recession hit, that happy little story that had been told to countless Millennials by their Boomer parents and teachers fell apart, and the Millennials have been picking up the pieces ever since.

While their expectations for reality and themselves have sometimes been overly high or excessively sunny, Millennials have a number of very legitimate social and economic grievances which older people are often quick to dismiss or chuckle at, because they're inconvenient and uncomfortable, and addressing them would require older folks to take some responsibility for the choices they've made and the society they've built.

And I'm someone who used to love to bash Millennials, mostly for being pansies and tools.

honestly I think part of the problem is that we're told that, but never really given the resources to actually reach those goals. and if we are, they're either horribly outdated or just low quality

[Nordo]

1 hour ago, Luka said:

How will one acquire experience, if no one will give them a chance because they have none?

That's the hard part I agree. I do give people a start when I can, usually one or two a year, balanced by more experienced people. For example, this year I just hired a guy for his first commercial gig. He's right at the legal minimums of experience for the job but what sets him apart and makes me want to hire him is his background. He's got a foundation I can build on. I guess you could argue that getting to the point of "minimum qualifications" is in itself a hard thing to do, and it is. More often than not that means paying for it yourself to get to that point and yes, it's not easy. I don't know the solution either. 

Edited March 13, 2016 by Nordo
Bad spelling because typing while walking...

[#00Buck]

3 hours ago, willow said:

most universities focused mainly on things like philosophy and rhetoric, logic, music, math, and astronomy as well as grammar since that was the main way people learned how to read and write

and people have been studying aerospace/aeronautics and computer science at least since the 1800's and maybe even earlier. they were a little more conceptual but they at least existed.

Please show me a computer from the year 1800 and prove there was a university that taught courses on how to build it. 

[#00Buck]

1 hour ago, Luka said:

How will one acquire experience, if no one will give them a chance because they have none?

Work for less money. Work for almost no money. Work for free. Work longer days than everyone else. Work 7 days a week. Work late into the night or get up before the sun rises. 

If there is no incentive to hire you nobody will hire you.

Do more. Charge less. 

You have to give them a very good reason to take a chance on you. 

Bargain. Negotiate. Prove your worth. 

If you prove nothing you are worthless. 

Nobody owes you anything including a job. 

[Zop]

4 minutes ago, #00Buck said:

Please show me a computer from the year 1800 and prove there was a university that taught courses on how to build it. 

Computer science isn't really computer programming per se. Computer science is more about the mathematics of computation, so technically you could say it existed long before the year 1800. At least this is what some CS people have told me.

[Derin Darkpaw]

8 minutes ago, #00Buck said:

Please show me a computer from the year 1800 and prove there was a university that taught courses on how to build it. 

Ask and ye shall receive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine

While never actually constructed due to various issues Babbage designed the machine back in 1837 and it could be actually described as Turing-complete.

[#00Buck]

Just now, Zop said:

Computer science isn't really computer programming per se. Computer science is more about the mathematics of computation, so technically you could say it existed long before the year 1800. At least this is what some CS people have told me.

That's mathematics. Math has been around a long time. 

The dictionary says a computer is an electronic device. 

1 minute ago, Derin Darkpaw said:

Ask and ye shall receive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine

While never actually constructed due to various issues Babbage designed the machine back in 1837 and it could be actually described as Turing-complete.

That's 37 years after the year 1800 and it was never constructed and didn't work. 

Good try though. 

[Derin Darkpaw]

2 minutes ago, #00Buck said:

That's 37 years after the year 1800 and it was never constructed and didn't work. 

Good try though. 

But it proves that computing was not something inconceivable to people of that time period.  Also the failure to construct it was not due to an inability to do so.  This demonstrates very well that people at that time could have both constructed and designed a computational device if they so desired.

[#00Buck]

Just now, Derin Darkpaw said:

But it proves that computing was not something inconceivable to people of that time period.  Also the failure to construct it was not due to an inability to do so.  This demonstrates very well that people at that time could have both constructed and designed a computational device if they so desired.

It also proves it isn't something the entire first year class at a university was taking. 

Good try but your tiny example does not prove the point. You've highlighted the exception. Not the common state of life for students of the time period. 

[AshleyAshes]

6 minutes ago, #00Buck said:

That's mathematics. Math has been around a long time. 

The dictionary says a computer is an electronic device. 

That's 37 years after the year 1800 and it was never constructed and didn't work. 

Good try though. 

Forms of mechanical computers were actually well in use in the early 1900's through to WWII.  From calculating trajectories for artillery crews, bomb sighting equipment, encryption machines like the Enigma series, scientific calculations in research like the Manhattan Project, up until the first electronic, digital computer, Colossus, in 1943 which was used for decryption. It really, REALLY was a field that played a part in both wars and this isn't just a semantical argument.  It certainly wasn't as BIG a field back then, but yeah, if you had necessary degrees in those fields at the time, you were useful.

[Toboe]

33 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Forms of mechanical computers were actually well in use in the early 1900's through to WWII.  From calculating trajectories for artillery crews, bomb sighting equipment, encryption machines like the Enigma series, scientific calculations in research like the Manhattan Project, up until the first electronic, digital computer, Colossus, in 1943 which was used for decryption. It really, REALLY was a field that played a part in both wars and this isn't just a semantical argument.  It certainly wasn't as BIG a field back then, but yeah, if you had necessary degrees in those fields at the time, you were useful.

The Z3, operational in 1941 was Turing-complete in theory (it wasn't used like that, but you could emulate a Turing machine)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computing_hardware#Early_digital_computer_characteristics

 

[MalletFace]

52 minutes ago, #00Buck said:

It also proves it isn't something the entire first year class at a university was taking. 

Good try but your tiny example does not prove the point. You've highlighted the exception. Not the common state of life for students of the time period. 

That's no exception.

Remember; IBM originates with companies like the Tabulating Machine Company (1880s) and the Computing Scale Company of America (1901) in years supposedly back in horse and buggy days with almost complete illiteracy. Computing machines were thought about, worked on, and sold well before the 1900s even started - well back in the 1600s. Any mathematics student of any respectable university would have studied them - or even ha before about 1900, especially if they were taking classes involving Leibniz's work. There were whole classes early on and programs much later devoted to tabulating/computing/sorting machines.

1 hour ago, #00Buck said:

Please show me a computer from the year 1800 and prove there was a university that taught courses on how to build it. 

Leibniz's machine: 1673 - whole classes devoted to it at Göttingen, and machines built off the same idea persisted until technology improved.

Jacquard's punch card loom: 1801 - many American universities set about building their own machines that worked off the same premise. Many computers used punch cards up until just recently.

The only reason we don't call those things computers is because the name got arbitrarily shifted from any computing machine to only machines that could run Turing complete languages - and these generally require electricity.

2 hours ago, Strongbob said:

I really try not to 'blame' the Boomers for the issues that the Millennials experience, but at the same time they did create the environment for our current economic situation, and seem to be oblivious to the results.  Then they accuse the Millennials of being lazy when they have provided the new generation NONE of the benefits they had.  They couldn't maintain education funding or keep wages growing.  Then they complain about the levels of their Social Security and Medicare handouts and expect us to be grateful.  Then they wonder why so many people are disillusioned.    

If you stop to point the finger at the people before you, you really aren't doing you or them any good. Understanding the source of a problem is good, but blame for the sake of blame is useless as far as I see it.

You only make yourself fell better in the short term and fail to fix anything.

[Strongbob]

18 minutes ago, MalletFace said:

If you stop to point the finger at the people before you, you really aren't doing you or them any good. Understanding the source of a problem is good, but blame for the sake of blame is useless as far as I see it.

You only make yourself fell better in the short term and fail to fix anything.

 

I totally agree, but when more than half of the voting population refuses to even admit that a problem exists then making progress is nearly impossible.  This is sort of like the climate change debate, until enough politicians agree that a real issue exists nothing is going to change, and so far most of these politicians are taking their orders from the only segment of society that still has $, the Boomers.

[FenrirDarkWolf]

How does one, exactly, find a job when there's barely anything in town to begin with and you can't drive?

[Nordo]

7 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

How does one, exactly, find a job when there's barely anything in town to begin with and you can't drive?

The same way animals survive in areas where food becomes scarce. They migrate to where the food is not scarce or starve. It may not have been your choice to start out in a place where jobs are scarce but it IS on you (anyone, not you personally) to decide to leave that place if you have to.  Relocating may not be pleasant or easy but that doesn't change that it may be NEEDED. If that absolutely is not an option then the only thing remaining as I see it is to make oneself more attractive to the few available employers so they can be competive. Survival of the fittest and all...  Sometimes we have to make the tough choices. Been there done that. 

[Kinharia]

Just now, Nordo said:

It may not have been your choice to start out in a place where jobs are scarce but it IS on you (anyone, not you personally) to decide to leave that place if you have to.  Relocating may not be pleasant or easy but that doesn't change that it may be NEEDED.

At least for Americans when you move somewhere in North America you are pretty much moving to another English speaking part. I need to move to another country for work and I don't speak the language... and it's probably a shorter distance than Fenrir or anyone else would have to travel. So yes feel lucky you have a continent of people speaking the same language as a plus!

[Kinare]

23 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

How does one, exactly, find a job when there's barely anything in town to begin with and you can't drive?

Threaten everyone until you get your way.

But no srsly, ^ that was pretty much my situation when I was just starting to adult. The only reason I lucked out and got my first "real" job at my local grocery store was because a guy that was working there told them to hire me and he was a good employee at the time so they listened to him. I had applied for that same store at least twice prior and not gotten anywhere before, only after I told the guy I knew that I was applying to it was he able to get me in. The job I had prior to that was helping my neighbor with his wife who was disabled, only paid $5 an hour but I was happy to have it because I was struggling to find anything else. Pretty much my couple shitty connections got me that far, and in small towns you really do need to have those connections to get the few little jobs that are available.

You can't drive you said, so ouch... I mean, even if you did get a job you'd have to have one close by, which limits things to an extreme. Why can't you drive, exactly? Just no car atm or haven't been able to get a license for w/e reason?

Bus travel may be an option? At least here we have busses in even small towns, though the commute time is pretty insane.

@The relocation suggestion: not always possible, especially in the case of Fen where driving is not an option. I can also see money being an issue as well. I don't know much about Fen's situation, but as a brand new adult trying to find a job, chances are you're living with your parents still and have no money of your own to just relocate with freely.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Kinare

[Taikugemu]

Skills? Experience?

Pfft, who needs that when you've got connections. 

[PastryOfApathy]

41 minutes ago, FenrirDarkWolf said:

How does one, exactly, find a job when there's barely anything in town to begin with and you can't drive?

Depends on the job.

If it's just a shitty retail type of thing then just apply for everything you can get to by public transport and call back in a few days to talk to the manager about it. Seriously just call back and talk to the manager, it's like the cheat code for getting a shitty minimum wage job.

Also make a decent looking resume (just google a template and learn to embellish working as a frycook) and look around Craigslist. There's a lot of local stuff usually so you may get lucky and find something near you.

Edited March 14, 2016 by PastryOfApathy

[FenrirDarkWolf]

1 hour ago, Kinare said:

Threaten everyone until you get your way.

But no srsly, ^ that was pretty much my situation when I was just starting to adult. The only reason I lucked out and got my first "real" job at my local grocery store was because a guy that was working there told them to hire me and he was a good employee at the time so they listened to him. I had applied for that same store at least twice prior and not gotten anywhere before, only after I told the guy I knew that I was applying to it was he able to get me in. The job I had prior to that was helping my neighbor with his wife who was disabled, only paid $5 an hour but I was happy to have it because I was struggling to find anything else. Pretty much my couple shitty connections got me that far, and in small towns you really do need to have those connections to get the few little jobs that are available.

You can't drive you said, so ouch... I mean, even if you did get a job you'd have to have one close by, which limits things to an extreme. Why can't you drive, exactly? Just no car atm or haven't been able to get a license for w/e reason?

Bus travel may be an option? At least here we have busses in even small towns, though the commute time is pretty insane.

@The relocation suggestion: not always possible, especially in the case of Fen where driving is not an option. I can also see money being an issue as well. I don't know much about Fen's situation, but as a brand new adult trying to find a job, chances are you're living with your parents still and have no money of your own to just relocate with freely.

Threatening sounds fun >:3

But really, I can't drive because my father is the only one in my family who can, and he doesn't have the time to teach me, and I don't have friends I can rely on to teach me either. Also even if I did, I wouldn't be able to afford a car.

About public transportation.. I don't believe that exists in Commerce, at least, not anywhere close.  And I can't relocate because that's where school is. I'm thinking about getting a job for the school. It'll be shit, but it's a job, it's within walking distance and it works with my classes.

Other than the school, there's nothing else hiring in town, not even Walmart is hiring. Everyone in the school has jobs in the surrounding cities.

[Derin Darkpaw]

3 hours ago, Nordo said:

The same way animals survive in areas where food becomes scarce. They migrate to where the food is not scarce or starve. It may not have been your choice to start out in a place where jobs are scarce but it IS on you (anyone, not you personally) to decide to leave that place if you have to.  Relocating may not be pleasant or easy but that doesn't change that it may be NEEDED. If that absolutely is not an option then the only thing remaining as I see it is to make oneself more attractive to the few available employers so they can be competive. Survival of the fittest and all...  Sometimes we have to make the tough choices. Been there done that. 

I always found this quote of Hume's very enlightening when it comes to the question of why people don't just move.

"Can we seriously say, that a poor peasant or artisan has a free choice to leave his country, when he knows no foreign language or manners, and lives from day to day, by the small wages which he acquires?  We may as well assert that a man, by remaining in a vessel, freely consents to the dominion of the master; though he was carried on board while asleep, and must leap into the ocean and perish, the moment he leaves her."  David Hume, Of the Original Contract (p. 328)

Hume was specifically referring to the social contract and consent thereof in that argument, but I feel it applies equally well in situations such as this.

Also you seem to say that it is survival of the fittest as if that is the way the world is and/or should be, but you have not established either of these as facts.  Since a system in which people can survive regardless of individual fitness can conceivably be implemented wouldn't we be morally obligated to put such a system into place?  I have a hard time thinking of a moral framework in which such an obligation does not exist.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Derin Darkpaw