Quick! I need life advice from furries

[Conker]

So, despite all the shitposting, ya'll are an alright bunch of people, and as it happens, I need an alright bunch of advice. I'll try and make this as brief as I possibly can:

For the last two years, my brother and myself have been working on a video game in our spare time. We're much closer to being done, though there's still a lot left to do. it's a big game, a crazy mix of trading card and RPG, and I have a thread for it somewhere in Three Frags Left for those who want to check it out more fully. We think it's fun, and we think it could go somewhere.

We have been Greenlit on Steam and are guaranteed a place on their store. I imagine you all know what Steam is, but for those that don't, it's like the Amazon.com of video games. Pretty much everyone who plays games on PC uses it, and that's a lot of people.

In order to get this game done in a reasonable time frame, we need to work on it full time. As it so happens, neither of us really like our current jobs. My brother is a programmer/software designer for a company that manufacturers motorcycle parts. It pays well, but it's boring and the office politics/drama are driving him crazy. Adults acting like children? Who knew. I've been bouncing around from office job to office job as a contracted worker doing data entry. it's not fun, but it pays the bills.

We're looking into Kickstarter again and certainly want to try, but we're also at a place where that isn't as needed as other projects of this type.

See, thanks to some generous parents who started college funds before we were born and some late grandparents who left us money, both my brother and myself are doing alright in the savings account department. As of yesterday, I've paid off my student loans completely, and my brother's aren't going to be a problem for another year or so.

Currently, my bro has a nice, two-bedroom apartment at $850 a month with utilities included. I've been looking for a job where he is to take the vacant room, but we're also wondering if we should just say "fuck it" and work on our game full time, living off of some money we have saved away until it's done. We're fairly confident that we can have it all done in 10 months, or barring that, enough to put on Steam Early Access.

We've talked budgets and what we're capable of spending on this before we get scared and head back to the working world should it all fall through. It should be noted that once the money we set aside for this is gone, we will go back to regular office jobs. We aren't about to let everything we've saved simply vanish on a pipe dream. I'm too cynical and cheap for that.

Yet, this is THE THING we want to do. Like I said, we've been working on this for two years now. It hits both of our passions hard (bro has wanted to make video games since we received Sonic 2 on the Sega Genesis years and years ago), and I like to write. As it turns out, I also like level design. Who knew? Music is fun to make too.

So that's the long and short of it, though mostly long. Though it could be longer. I'm curious as to what you all think of something like this. We believe the end product could go somewhere, or even if it didn't, still sell enough copies to keep us going and make more games. More niche games than ours have sold 5000+ copies in their first month or two, and they had more people to pay. Right now, it's just us two.

I'll certainly answer questions to the best of my ability, though I do want to keep some privacy when it comes to how much money we actually have.

 

Edited October 16, 2015 by Conker
Clarifying something

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

Can I see what game you're working on?

[Dr. Doggo]

Never quit your day job when it comes to something like this. It's your security blanket.

Take as long as you need to, quit your jobs IF the cash finally rolls in.

[Charrio]

Be very careful.
Idiots make thousands on kickstarter but legit products and ideas get left unfunded.

Personally I see it as a giant risk, but if others are paying for it on kickstarter then sure

[Chrysocyon]

Even though your game sounds like it's got good potential, you might want to keep your jobs until you at least get your first game out and you've got income coming in.  Also,if you could afford to finish it on your own, it might be best to avoid Early Access or Kickstarter. Too many games never get finished and people are wary of buying stuff up front like that.  Sometimes it works out, but it seems like a lot of the time it just leads to bad first impressions of games.  It may bring in some income to help you develop it, but it may hurt sales long-term, too.

[Conker]

Can I see what game you're working on?

Thread for it can be found here https://phoenix.corvidae.org/topic/585-the-regret-of-vitrerran-my-indie-game-with-demo/ The link at the bottom takes you to our press page, which has the demo download and a bunch of other vids/screens. Also, our alpha trailer is outdated as fuck. Our next big project will be to make a better trailer.

Never quit your day job when it comes to something like this. It's your security blanket.

Take as long as you need to, quit your jobs IF the cash finally rolls in.

My security blanket is going away soon because contracts are ending Bro's is more complicated because while he doesn't like his job, it also pays really well. It's less of a gamble on me than it is on him.

But I am afraid this will turn into a four year project if we don't do something to get it really going.

Be very careful.
Idiots make thousands on kickstarter but legit products and ideas get left unfunded.

Personally I see it as a giant risk, but if others are paying for it on kickstarter then sure

Our kickstarter plan is to ask for about $10k and then throw our money in with the rest. We're very willing to put our money where our mouths are at this point, and since getting noticed by the press is god damned difficult these days, lower = feasible. But yeah, it's nice when other people are willing to pitch in I do think that there have been enough solid KS projects now that people are less hesitant. Jotun just came out and is getting favorable reviews. It's also a good game.

I dunno. The way I see it is when people start a business, they often get a loan. We're just skipping that part and using our own money. Don't have to pay any interest back on that.

[Revates]

The way I see it is. Quitting your jobs and working on it full time will: Get your game out quicker and it gets you out of jobs you dislike vs the risk of the gamble not paying off and all your savings drying up. I think it's a good idea to take your time and go for the safer option.

Also I think your game looks brilliant I've just downloaded the demo.

 

[Conker]

The way I see it is. Quitting your jobs and working on it full time will: Get your game out quicker and it gets you out of jobs you dislike vs the risk of the gamble not paying off and all your savings drying up. I think it's a good idea to take your time and go for the safer option.

Also I think your game looks brilliant I've just downloaded the demo.

 

We've allotted a certain amount of our savings for this, so if we go over that and we still aren't done, then it goes back to being part time. I certainly will not let my entire savings dry up. I'm way too cheap for that (get that from my grandparents >.<)

Also thanks! Let me know what you think. We want as much feedback as we can get.

[#00Buck]

The best life advice you will get from furries is...

Don't take life advice from furries. 

[Vallium]

"fuck it"

[Taralack]

Would it be possible to negotiate part time hours at your jobs? That way you can have the best of both worlds, so to speak.. 

This is incredibly risky and I would be wary of quitting a job over something that may or may not pay off. Better to have the fallback option of going back to a shitty job than having to start the job search over if the game doesn't make it.

[Conker]

Would it be possible to negotiate part time hours at your jobs? That way you can have the best of both worlds, so to speak.. 

This is incredibly risky and I would be wary of quitting a job over something that may or may not pay off. Better to have the fallback option of going back to a shitty job than having to start the job search over if the game doesn't make it.

This is certainly something to consider. For me, it's not possible, but I'm fine with picking up a job where my bro lives, even if it's kind of shit, to work on this.

And guys, if I seem a bit argumentative, I'm not trying to be. I appreciate the dose of reality/cynicism. Normally I'm all about that, but I'm super invested in this and it's hard

[Sutekh_the_Steak]

I'm only 17 so I don't have any proper experience with employment, but I would say it's better to take your time and keep your jobs, just in case anything goes tits-up once you leave them and start working on the game full time.

If you feel absolutely 200% certain that working on the game full-time will have positive results in the future, and that you'll be able to get jobs again pretty easily one it's done, then I'd say take the risk and do it. But if you still have any doubts about that sort of stuff, no matter how small, then taking the safest route and staying in employment is the best thing to do I think (I say employment rather than jobs because it sounds like your brother really doesn't like his current job, so maybe the best option for him in this situation would be to try and get a different job somewhere else if possible).

[Taralack]

This is certainly something to consider. For me, it's not possible, but I'm fine with picking up a job where my bro lives, even if it's kind of shit, to work on this.

And guys, if I seem a bit argumentative, I'm not trying to be. I appreciate the dose of reality/cynicism. Normally I'm all about that, but I'm super invested in this and it's hard

I figured, since you mentioned you did mostly contract work. Whatever works for you.

Honestly that's understandable, it's really easy for someone to dispense advice by typing on a keyboard, but for you it's a pretty major life decision. You need to think through all the angles and make the best possible decision.. but on the other hand I also want to say try not to overthink it.

[Conker]

I figured, since you mentioned you did mostly contract work. Whatever works for you.

Honestly that's understandable, it's really easy for someone to dispense advice by typing on a keyboard, but for you it's a pretty major life decision. You need to think through all the angles and make the best possible decision.. but on the other hand I also want to say try not to overthink it.

There's also the fact that I'm in my 20's and this is the decade where I'm allowed to make mistakes. Got time to fix them in my 30's

[Fantasma]

You can also look at how long it would take to find employment again, what employment you can take, and plan for the worst.

Also, if you ask for 10k on a crowdfunding site for a greenlit game with a demo... I wouldn't be suprised if you get several times that.

 

I would try to take as long a vacation as his job allows to see what kind of productivity you can get with it full time.

That way you can atleast get a timeframe and understans how to best manage your time.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Johanna Waya

[Conker]

Let me stop one mistake for you, since I'm already in my 30s and a little experienced with this. AT BEST, every day you will get about 2-3 hours of actual productive work done, then you'll be done coding for a while or doing your art or whatever. Don't bother quitting your job unless the situation demands you have to physically move and can no longer work there, as you should only devote 2-3 hours at the most every day or so towards this while working so you don't go burning yourself out. Make money, make your project.

 

Since you're young, use that (hopefully abundant) youthful energy wisely, budget it right. You *WILL* burn yourself out working on your project if you dedicate yourself to it, no matter how passionate you are about it. The variety is a much better way to be handling your life right now, instead of focusing on one thing or another. Do ALL the things, but allocate proper time for them.

In some ways, I worry about that with myself, but it won't be a problem for my bro who is doing all of the programming and artwork. His first paying job was to make a full game (some browser-based, educational thing) from start to finish, and he worked 10 hours a day on it (so he could have three-day weekends). If he could do that for a year and a half, he can do it again for another ten months on something he really cares about.

As for me, there's so much to do that jumping around from part to part helps. Spend three hours on a level, then another hour on dialogue, and then four or so on music and there's a day. The good thing about games is they have a shitload of variety to them, so you can always work on something new.

[Llamapotamus]

Do what you're passionate about! Why not? 

[Clove Darkwave]

The indie games market is so notoriously fickle I really wouldn't risk it OP. You should consider it a fun thing to toy around with like a tinkerer in his workshop. Might be FREAKIN' AMAZING or it might just tip over and explode.

Enough of us people in our 20s are in debt, don't add to that. Remember that life loves to kick you in the teeth the moment you stand anything but tall.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Clove Darkwave

[Conker]

If he truly enjoys coding like it's almost religion to him, then he might not burn out, and I also think it would depend how many weeks of that he did. After 25 years of it in various languages for various things, while a useful skill to have, it ultimately wears on me. I started moving more into electronics and mechanical stuff starting about 10 years ago, as you get more tangible and rewarding results, but even that wears thin on me.

It piles on silently. People don't see it until it's too late, more often than not. Ask your brother if that was ultimately a stressful job. Timelines are not easy things to meet!

It took him a bit over a year to make that game, mostly because he had to build this really complicated editor from scratch so those who were buying it could edit/add/revise. But it was a space thing, so he had to draw a shitload of planets and moons and ships etc.

The indie games market is so notoriously fickle I really wouldn't risk it OP. You should consider it a fun thing to toy around with like a tinkerer in his workshop. Might be FREAKIN' AMAZING or it might just tip over and explode.

Enough of us people in our 20s are in debt, don't add to that. Remember that life loves to kick you in the teeth the moment you stand anything but tall.

It is, and sometimes it feels like there's little rhyme or reason as to what gets big, what sinks, what gets coverage, and what goes unnoticed. It's a problem. We've tried to get coverage in the past when we had stuff to show, but other than some really small websites/blogs, the bigger places didn't bite. It's all about releases if you're indie (or successful kickstarters).

I do believe that the fact we're on Steam sets us ahead of most, but then, Digital Homicide have put like ten games onto Steam now, so it's clearly not that hard to do.

[Skylar Husky]

Try to stay employed and get this thing off the ground before quitting your primary employment. I know people who have looked 2+ years for work in the current employment market without finding something. You do not want to be looking for 2+ years if the video game you and brother have written is not a smashing success.

My brother has a friend who is currently going through this with a business partner in a recording studio. She finally got her recording studio to make her enough money to quit working at the gas station every day, but she still works there a couple days of the week for supplementary income.

 

[Kinare]

I would definitely not risk it. You've got a lot working against you here the way I see it and not much potential monetary reward to recover from the risk. You've got competition in a not-yet-popular niche genre and because of the simplicity of the game itself you cannot expect to successfully charge much, so even assuming it was a hit within the niche, you would still not be making tons of money enough to replace a full time "normal" job.

Then of course there's the EA thing, which is a huge gamble tbh, and could hurt you more than help if you go about it wrong. If initial EA launch is garbage or not what people expected from you then you get a bunch of negative reviews right off the bat, most all of your potential buyers go right out the door then and you would have a big uphill battle to fight to recover.

Kickstart is a much safer bet. I would recommend doing KS and being straightforward with backers that you and your brother work and can't spend as much time on the game as you'd like right now, but if the funds amount exceeded a certain amount (figure your expenses for however many months you'd want to work on it) then you could work full time on it and have a good chance of release by a set month, then of course give them the alternative rough date if development had to continue as it is currently.

 

I don't mean to be rude or overly negative, just trying to feed you the reality of it instead of fill your mind with hope and then be part of the reason why you're homeless in 2 years. I just don't see it making you enough money to justify you working full time on this and having nothing else bringing in money.

If you want feedback and honest thoughts on the game I can toss the demo at my gaming clan. Can't guarantee many people will try it, but ya never know. ^^

[Conker]

I would definitely not risk it. You've got a lot working against you here the way I see it and not much potential monetary reward to recover from the risk. You've got competition in a not-yet-popular niche genre and because of the simplicity of the game itself you cannot expect to successfully charge much, so even assuming it was a hit within the niche, you would still not be making tons of money enough to replace a full time "normal" job.

Then of course there's the EA thing, which is a huge gamble tbh, and could hurt you more than help if you go about it wrong. If initial EA launch is garbage or not what people expected from you then you get a bunch of negative reviews right off the bat, most all of your potential buyers go right out the door then and you would have a big uphill battle to fight to recover.

Kickstart is a much safer bet. I would recommend doing KS and being straightforward with backers that you and your brother work and can't spend as much time on the game as you'd like right now, but if the funds amount exceeded a certain amount (figure your expenses for however many months you'd want to work on it) then you could work full time on it and have a good chance of release by a set month, then of course give them the alternative rough date if development had to continue as it is currently.

 

I don't mean to be rude or overly negative, just trying to feed you the reality of it instead of fill your mind with hope and then be part of the reason why you're homeless in 2 years. I just don't see it making you enough money to justify you working full time on this and having nothing else bringing in money.

If you want feedback and honest thoughts on the game I can toss the demo at my gaming clan. Can't guarantee many people will try it, but ya never know. ^^

Well, for starters, we plan on charging $15 for the game. It's big, and not in that "it feels big because we are working on it" but legit big. That's our own fault for letting it get that way, but now that it is, we're stuck with it. But while the gameplay looks simple, and kind of is in the demo because demo, there's a good deal of depth and strategy in it. It's a card game.

Early Access is...iffy. We were actually in talks with a publisher awhile back who really talked up Early Access and if they had funded us, would have wanted us to go that route. You can use it as a platform to get on the front page of Steam pretty easily and multiple times. So the idea is you have your base game up on the front page for people to see, then with bigger updates you can put it back up. It's easy exposure and shows people that it's coming along. Or that's how they sold it to me. It's a shame they wound up backing out of the deal or we wouldn't he having this conversation

But neither of us plan on being homeless in two years. If we're going fractions, let's say we're both willing to put about a 1/4 of our savings into this before we freak out and get normal jobs again. So that's 3/4 left in the bank.

And yeah. Totally send that demo out to other people if you're willing. We haven't gotten that much feedback on it other than, "it's hard" which yeah it is. We're working on balancing the actual game a bit easier.

[Kinare]

Early Access is...iffy. We were actually in talks with a publisher awhile back who really talked up Early Access and if they had funded us, would have wanted us to go that route. You can use it as a platform to get on the front page of Steam pretty easily and multiple times. So the idea is you have your base game up on the front page for people to see, then with bigger updates you can put it back up. It's easy exposure and shows people that it's coming along. Or that's how they sold it to me. It's a shame they wound up backing out of the deal or we wouldn't he having this conversation

And yeah. Totally send that demo out to other people if you're willing. We haven't gotten that much feedback on it other than, "it's hard" which yeah it is. We're working on balancing the actual game a bit easier.

Lots of attention is bad if it's negative attention, so while he had the concept of how to get the most out of EA down pat, he clearly wasn't taking the risk into consideration. People have a very jaded view of EA games now as well because so few get completed and many times people have backed something that got dropped by the dev team, so they're overly critical and hard on EA titles now to the point that it's not really fair to those who are trying to make a solid game because ignorant people see these reviews, not considering it's EA and there will be a lot of issues, and avoid the game. (There is of course times where it is acceptable to be worried about getting burned by a title with little to no content and a buggy as heck, basically unplayable launch, but that's a whole notha discussion.) Also now that Steam offers refunds so easily, the likelihood of getting those bad reviews overturned is minimal because those reviewers will probably have asked for their money back if they truly hate the game and there's little chance they buy back into it without seeing many more positive reviews. Worst thing you could do for your game is go into EA too early or too sloppily. Of course, you know your game better than I do so only you know when that is, just consider that it's not all glamour and there are some big risks if EA launch goes sour.

Tonight if I remember while I'm at work I'll post your demo for my peeps. Also depends on how cooperative my laptop keyboard is. I hate typing on the on-screen keyboard... Some nights the keyboard works great, others not so much. =/

[Conker]

Lots of attention is bad if it's negative attention, so while he had the concept of how to get the most out of EA down pat, he clearly wasn't taking the risk into consideration. People have a very jaded view of EA games now as well because so few get completed and many times people have backed something that got dropped by the dev team, so they're overly critical and hard on EA titles now to the point that it's not really fair to those who are trying to make a solid game because ignorant people see these reviews, not considering it's EA and there will be a lot of issues, and avoid the game. (There is of course times where it is acceptable to be worried about getting burned by a title with little to no content and a buggy as heck, basically unplayable launch, but that's a whole notha discussion.) Also now that Steam offers refunds so easily, the likelihood of getting those bad reviews overturned is minimal because those reviewers will probably have asked for their money back if they truly hate the game and there's little chance they buy back into it without seeing many more positive reviews. Worst thing you could do for your game is go into EA too early or too sloppily. Of course, you know your game better than I do so only you know when that is, just consider that it's not all glamour and there are some big risks if EA launch goes sour.

I follow Jim Sterling, so I certainly know the fuckery afoot with Early Access. There are right and wrong ways to work the system, but even games that do it all right still suffer. Darkest Dungeon is still on EA and after some changes to difficulty, is now upsetting fans instead of pleasing them.

The whole thing is a gamble.

And being honest, I'd rather not go with it. I'm lucky in that my game would work well with the program, but I still don't really respect it that much for all the things you've mentioned. Just as much can go wrong as can go right, only the things that go wrong are a lot easier to do

But it IS still an option. I won't rule it out completely. Goal would be to get the game half done before putting it up there and then charge half the price. That way customers get two full campaigns, which will be like 10-16 hours of gameplay. Maybe. We're still working on that part.

[Hell_Charm]

I know I'm a bit late, but you should watch Indie games the movie if you haven't up until now.

We watched it in school (since our school basically focuses on training students to go work in either the game/animation/vfx industry) and it was so helpful, thins movie tells the tale of the most successful Indie games out there and the struggle it was to make it that far.

[Conker]

I know I'm a bit late, but you should watch Indie games the movie if you haven't up until now.

We watched it in school (since our school basically focuses on training students to go work in either the game/animation/vfx industry) and it was so helpful, thins movie tells the tale of the most successful Indie games out there and the struggle it was to make it that far.

I've thought about it, but it's been a struggle enough without another dose of realism >.<

Niel Gaiman said something like, "It's a lot easier to do if you don't know it's impossible" and I'm kinda fine with that right now.

At this point, I'm not sure what we'll end up doing, long or short term. I did some napkin math and it'll take like 30 months to finish it at this current pace verse ten if we were to work on it full time. That's a huge difference. The worry is we'll get burned out going longer than giving it our all. But the brother, who has the better job, is more game on "fuck it let's do this" than I am.

For all my stupid optimism here, I'm the one in this group playing it safe

[Hell_Charm]

I've thought about it, but it's been a struggle enough without another dose of realism >.<

Niel Gaiman said something like, "It's a lot easier to do if you don't know it's impossible" and I'm kinda fine with that right now.

At this point, I'm not sure what we'll end up doing, long or short term. I did some napkin math and it'll take like 30 months to finish it at this current pace verse ten if we were to work on it full time. That's a huge difference. The worry is we'll get burned out going longer than giving it our all. But the brother, who has the better job, is more game on "fuck it let's do this" than I am.

For all my stupid optimism here, I'm the one in this group playing it safe

nothing wrong with playing it safe, maybe you could both get a part time job so you still earn some money but get a lot more time to work on the project? Even something stupid like working the evening shift in a bar can still earn you a bit of backup money + something to help pay the bills without affecting you savings as much.

[Conker]

nothing wrong with playing it safe, maybe you could both get a part time job so you still earn some money but get a lot more time to work on the project? Even something stupid like working the evening shift in a bar can still earn you a bit of backup money + something to help pay the bills without affecting you savings as much.

I plan on having this conversation with him this weekend. The thing is, where he lives, the job market kinda sucks, so he'd have to move. But it might be best to have him wiat out his lease first and then come back here. It only puts us back another few months AND lets us bank some more money before trying this.

[Hell_Charm]

I plan on having this conversation with him this weekend. The thing is, where he lives, the job market kinda sucks, so he'd have to move. But it might be best to have him wiat out his lease first and then come back here. It only puts us back another few months AND lets us bank some more money before trying this.

True, I think that might be your best option  hope he'll follow your vision

[Foxxy]

Don't quit your jobs.

 

Video games is a hard market, some work, other don't. It might take more time, but just don't quit your jobs.

 

I know someone who's in programming, Maybe you should talk to him and see if he's interested ?

[Conker]

 

I know someone who's in programming, Maybe you should talk to him and see if he's interested ?

Naw. We're solid here. We figure if it succeeds, it's on us; if it fucks up, it's on us. Ideally when we do another, we'll have the funds to hire someone to help. Most likely with art since that's a time sink that I cannot help with.

Wouldn't mind someone to work on sounds too, but only becuase I hate doing that shit

[Foxxy]

I will ask and see of I find anyone

[Conker]

I will ask and see of I find anyone

Well, at our current rate this game won't be done for like 30 fucking months, so the second game is kinda not worth thinking about.

[Fantasma]

Well Eggy is going to school for game design, I believe can do sounds, and likes board games.

Just sayin'.

 

Also, if you have people who aren't neccesarily experience help on their own time for their experience... You can probably restitute them for their time if the game gives lots of revenue while not having the burden of holding them to productivity targets and not paying them if they don't make them.

Essentially restituted volunteers, almost interns.

[Conker]

Well Eggy is going to school for game design, I believe can do sounds, and likes board games.

Just sayin'.

 

Also, if you have people who aren't neccesarily experience help on their own time for their experience... You can probably restitute them for their time if the game gives lots of revenue while not having the burden of holding them to productivity targets and not paying them if they don't make them.

Essentially restituted volunteers, almost interns.

At this point it's a pride/ownership thing. It's ours, and we want to see it through exclusively on our own before we figure out what to do with future projects.

So far so good. The game has been a bit of a blessing in some ways: I've broken out of my comfort zone so hardcore for this project. First time really making music, first time designing levels, first time writing a story that's exclusively dialogue, first time making sound fx, etc.

[Conker]

DOUBLEPOST/UPDATE

So I asked on a different place I frequent often and was told to "FOLLOW YOUR DREAMS OR YOU WILL REGRET LIFE"

That was predictable though, because that's the running theme of that place. Validation is nice.

I then went and asked someone I know who has big experience working in the video game industry. I met him a few years ago during an interview (I write for a small, gaming website and he had a kickstarter). We somewhat hit it off and keep in contact as...well, contacts. It's fairly one-sided with me asking him all sorts of questions and him having the patience to answer. He's super fucking nice and oh god I want to like bake him a cake and send it to Germany where he lives.

Anyways, he gave me some god damned big things to think about, all of which involve money. most Steam games don't do well because Steam is so fucking saturated and big these days, though given what he's seen of my project, he figured 10k is a good number for a first year's worth of sales. It's not probable we'll catch lightning in a bottle.

10k at $15 = 150k

Valve takes 30%

That leaves a bit over 100K

Take out sales tax and corp MN tax and I'm looking at $78,300 for a year's worth of sales.

Divide that in two because two people $39,150.

That's without dumping our own money in, which of course lowers the price a bit.

What this means is, I have to tell my bro that while I'd love to do this, it's probably not a good idea in the long run. That's not enough to live off of to make another game. With two of us, we're looking at at least a two year cycle, even if we go with the easier to make option we want to do next.

The reverse is that the longer we wait, the more saturated Steam will become, lowering what we'll make. There's also the fact that fuck, getting something on STeam would be cool and it's not like I've got a career going right now.

So yeah. We get to have this big ol convo tomorrow when he comes down to go to a Sevendust concert with me. At least there's good music in my future!