Cuba, the death of Fidel Castro and so on.

[Saxon]

I am surprised nobody made a thread about this.

So, Castro was in power for 5 decades, after he usurped a corrupt criminal dictator in a guerilla war. He eventually passed power onto his brother Raul, which I think was nepotistic.

He massively improved Cuba's healthcare, decreasing its infant mortality to levels comparable with advanced first world countries.

...but he also ruled as a dictator and stationed nuclear missiles in his country, something one might perceive to be contrary to communist values which place the good of average people first; how is the prospect of nuclear apocalypse in the interest of the average people communists purport to serve?

 

So, it's really the end of an era; what do you guys think?

[Crazy Lee]

You're not going to see me shed a tear for him. Anything he did good for his people was overshadowed with the restrictions on their freedom (the embargoes certainly didn't help). But by this time, he had become irrelevant. After passing power to his brother, he became mostly a nobody, a figurehead for the most part for the people to adore.

[Toshabi]

 

 

[Snagged]

I must say, this was a genius move by CIA to wait until 2016 (which has already claimed lives of many celebrities) so that the cause of his death would seem natural

[WileyWarWeasel]

9 hours ago, Saxon said:

...but he also ruled as a dictator and stationed nuclear missiles in his country, something one might perceive to be contrary to communist values which place the good of average people first; how is the prospect of nuclear apocalypse in the interest of the average people communists purport to serve?

USA, Russia, UK, China and others currently station nuclear weapons in their territories and on mobile platforms like submarines.

 

2 hours ago, Snagged Cub said:

I must say, this was a genius move by CIA to wait until 2016 (which has already claimed lives of many celebrities) so that the cause of his death would seem natural

Or perhaps he was a communist alien all along! ;V

[Imperial Impact]

When will Justin shut the fuck up?

[Dr. Doggo]

>died on pinochet's birthday

[Saxon]

5 hours ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

USA, Russia, UK, China and others currently station nuclear weapons in their territories and on mobile platforms like submarines.

 

Indeed; am not exactly a fan of it. Ambivalent.

[WileyWarWeasel]

2 hours ago, Saxon said:

Indeed; am not exactly a fan of it. Ambivalent.

Unfortunately we've got a prisoner's dilemma here: though we may all be better of if no one had nuclear weapons, it would only take one country disobeying that rule to get an advantage over others.

Then there's the argument of the nuclear deterrent, though that doesn't stop Russia/USA/China/etc from fighting each other indirectly.

[Saxon]

1 minute ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

Unfortunately we've got a prisoner's dilemma here: though we may all be better of if no one had nuclear weapons, it would only take one country disobeying that rule to get an advantage over others.

Then there's the argument of the nuclear deterrent, though that doesn't stop Russia/USA/China/etc from fighting each other indirectly.

I can't fault your argument.

I think it is very unfortunate that Russia chose to annex territory of Ukraine. Ukraine surrendered >5000 nuclear weapons to Russia, following the disintegration of the Soviet Union in exchange for the promise that Ukraine's borders would be respected.

Russia's decision to flout that promise has guaranteed that no country will ever surrender their arsenal again.

[MissFleece]

8 minutes ago, Saxon said:

I can't fault your argument.

I think it is very unfortunate that Russia chose to annex territory of Ukraine. Ukraine surrendered >5000 nuclear weapons to Russia, following the disintegration of the Soviet Union in exchange for the promise that Ukraine's borders would be respected.

Russia's decision to flout that promise has guaranteed that no country will ever surrender their arsenal again.

Man and that was after the ukraine fought VERY HARD for their civil revolution :c 

Poor ukraine 

[CETME]

[Vitaly]

30 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Ukraine surrendered >5000 nuclear weapons to Russia

They don't had much of a choice. No matter where missiles are deployed, only russian commanders could control it, without them these missiles couldn't even be dismantled by other side. 

 

45 minutes ago, Saxon said:

in exchange for the promise that Ukraine's borders would be respected.

If you mean budapest memorandum it hasnt been ratified by any side, including ukraine and uk ¯ \ _ (ツ) _ / ¯

[Zeke]

I am ambivalent. While he did do a lot of good things for his people, he also did a lot of bad things to make him a tyrannical despot after overthrowing the previous tyrannical despot.

A few friends are celebrating because they were run off the island. I think  one of them said his grandfather was rich or something, but idk. 

[Strongbob]

I have mixed feelings about his death.  I was not a fan of most of the things he did but I am definitely not happy with how a lot of politicians have handled his death, the president elect included.  Do not cheer the death of old men lest you open yourself up to trumpets at your own grave. 

[Crazy Lee]

10 hours ago, BlitzCo said:

All the self-described communists and socialists on social media mourning his death and celebrating his legacy....

If you like communism so much move there to Cuba. Or China. Or North Korea. I won't hold you back. I won't rescue you later either.

[MalletFace]

Love him or hate him, the world lost a symbol of freedom in him.

It seems Fidel has outlived most of the freedom-fighters he inspired and was respected by, though. Apparently Fidelismo includes dying only when one is damn well ready.

17 minutes ago, Crazy Lee said:

All the self-described communists and socialists on social media mourning his death and celebrating his legacy....

If you like communism so much move there to Cuba. Or China. Or North Korea. I won't hold you back. I won't rescue you later either.

"Can we seriously say, that a poor peasant or artisan has a free choice to leave his country, when he knows no foreign language or manners, and lives, from day to day, by the small wages which he acquires? We may as well assert that a man, by remaining in a vessel, freely consents to the dominion of the master; though he was carried on board while asleep, and must leap into the ocean and perish, the moment he leaves her."

[FlynnCoyote]

I like how he was on that episode of The Simpsons that one time.

[Snagged]

If you think about it, Elizabeth II, the current monarch of UK is the only known autocrat in power who is older than Fidel Castro 

However, Elizabeth carries nowhere nearly as much power as did Castro during his reign of communist dictatorship 

[Saxon]

17 hours ago, Strongbob said:

I have mixed feelings about his death.  I was not a fan of most of the things he did but I am definitely not happy with how a lot of politicians have handled his death, the president elect included.  Do not cheer the death of old men lest you open yourself up to trumpets at your own grave. 

I think you're right. I remember when people celebrated Margaret Thatcher's death with street parties, and it made me feel a little bit sick. Fidel was in a class of his own compared to her of course.

[Lopaw]

If Cuba doesn't start democratizing in the same way that Spain and Portugal did after removing their dictatorships I will be disappointed. 

[Osrik]

Castro is a much more complicated figure to talk about than most dictators; I would probably classify him as residing in more of a grey area more than that of a heroic liberator or evil dictator.

While he eliminated freedoms and frequently used violence against his opponents in Cuba, he did free it from its domination by the United States, held great popularity among the majority of the population (part of the reason the CIA found it so hard to ferment resistance against), and made many other improvements already mentioned. Additionally, unlike many others who used revolutionary language to disguise their own darker motives, Castro appears to have been a genuine revolutionary. He also did not seem to be committed to specifically Communist revolution, but to fighting for the independence of developing countries from Western domination and intervention.

He provided significant aid to Salvador Allende's democratically elected Marxist government in Chile (who fell to a US backed coup that ushered in decades of brutal military rule), provided both military and humanitarian aid to the FLN during and after the Algerian War of Independence, and kept between 30,000 and 80,000 Cuban troops stationed in Angola from the mid 70s to early 90s to protect the national government from numerous military interventions from apartheid-era South Africa and CIA sponsored nationalist groups, this and other activities playing a significant role in securing the independence of Angola, Namibia, and other states of Africa from apartheid South Africa and outside influence from the US and others (though he also holds some blame for the undemocratic nature of many of the regimes he supported).

None of these cases excuses his actions as a dictatorial ruler, but I think it does show him as having been a much more complex figure than most dictators, with what could be seen as a significant positive influence in aiding in securing and maintaining the independence of many African nations, this positive however somewhat muddled by the nature of many of the governments he supported and the chaos and war that followed their independence.

So, overall, i can't say I see him as wholly a villain or a hero, but as a complex figure strongly committed to the ideals he held, often willing to go too far to ensure his own security and the advancement of what he thought was right.

[Hux]

I like to to imagine Castro riding in Pinochet's helicopter on the way to Hell.