Rant: My hypocritical phobia

[SirRob]

A few days ago, I was flipping channels and stopped on WHYY. It seemed to be showing some sort of autism awareness program. There was a girl on the show who was talking about her autism, and her family and teachers. Then it cut to her on the computer. The program showed some drawings she made, and focused on one, which the girl called her persona. I was like, aahhhh!! I had to change the channel, it made me cringe. It was a little too close to home. I don't like it when my interests are connected to autism, I don't like being associated with autistic people in general and I definitely don't like being lumped in with them!

Yesterday, I was thinking about how I interact with men. I have to be really reserved and cautious around them, because I, well, I'm pretty darn gay and I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable. I wished that straight guys weren't so concerned about being associated with gay people, because it's not like there's anything WRONG with us. And then I realized how bigoted and hypocritical my discomfort and thoughts from before were. The unease I felt watching that show, and the unease straight guys must feel around gays, must be pretty darn similar. How can I wish for something like that when I can't even get over my own prejudice?

I dunno how much discussion can be generated from this, but it's at least nice to solidify my thoughts. I guess, what are your thoughts about how uh, "cultures" like the furry fandom are associated with mental disorders? Does it bother you the same way it did with me?

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

It does bother me, actually. It makes me feel ashamed in what I like. You don't even know how many times I've been called autistic for liking furries and/or animatronics.

[Eggdodger]

Yesterday, I was thinking about how I interact with men. I have to be really reserved and cautious around them, because I, well, I'm pretty darn gay and I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable. I wished that straight guys weren't so concerned about being associated with gay people, because it's not like there's anything WRONG with us. And then I realized how bigoted and hypocritical my discomfort and thoughts from before were. The unease I felt watching that show, and the unease straight guys must feel around gays, must be pretty darn similar. How can I wish for something like that when I can't even get over my own prejudice?

Honestly, I figure that guys that aren't comfortable with having gay dudes around them aren't really worth your time anyways. It's not like that will affect many interactions between friends, especially if you're good friends and you can "joke around" like that.

If anything, I could maybe see getting uncomfortable because you get a crush on one of them... That's happened to me before, and that might make things weird.

I hope you get over the dilemma you're having. It just needs a little more thought. I think you can overcome what you're feeling right now. Honestly, I'm friends with lots of straight guys, even after they knew I was into dudes and even after I came out as trans. You have a winning personality, Rob; let that shine through and your sexuality won't define you =)

[Guest]

There's things called 'internalized homophobia' and 'internalized misogyny' and so on. The gist is that you believe and feel this way about some things becaus it was brought up around you in some way, during important cognitive years.

There isn't a word for it, but for instance, I got terrorized by kids with severe Downs and other serious mental diseases when I was younger. To this day, I freak out about other people having mental illnesses and inherently want to 'not associate' with them, even though I myself have a severe mental illness. The severe stigma coupled with the bad events of my childhood makes me feel angry and disgusted towards people with mental illnesses, and then now I'm disgusted with myself because I have a mental illness. I'm so fucking self aware I know when it's happening, but I can't stop it. Vicious cycle, etc. 

Could that have happened to you in some way? Maybe media you saw was fairly homophobic, a dad.. I mean, a lot of pop culture makes effeminate gay men several butts of jokes. Gay men suffer because they run the risk that in the event of someone supporting them as gay, someone can "over-support" and broadcast about their new "gay best friend" and go shopping and other stereotypical "gay male" roles. And that's something you dislike because in some form you were taught to dislike it?

It could not be this exact example, but its a very "popular" issue with gay men because of the stereotype. Several personal friends have suffered because of this. 

[Onnes]

... It was a little too close to home. I don't like it when my interests are connected to autism, I don't like being associated with autistic people in general and I definitely don't like being lumped in with them! ...

I hate to tell you this, but that ship probably sailed when you started posting on forums like this one.

OK, I'll be serious.
Autistic people are probably far more afraid of being associated with the furry fandom than you are of being connected to autism spectrum disorders.

Goddammit, I couldn't help myself.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but the two examples you chose here seem telling. The first case you say outright that you don't want something you are interested in becoming associated too strongly with autism. That's not that crazy. Mental disorders carry a lot of stigma with them and no one wants that following them around if they can help it. But why would being tenuously connected to something transfer negative feelings like that; is there the fear that other people will make said association and judge you on it (or worse)? (Now I slip into full-blown speculation.)

I wonder this because your second paragraph is about concern over how other men will treat you based on prejudice towards gay men. This explicitly involves the belief that other people will connect you to something they are prejudiced against and that will carry consequences, which doesn't seem that different from the issue in the first paragraph. Of course, there is the difference from the first case that you are in fact gay but apparently not autistic; however, if we're playing six degrees of assumed bigotry then that distinction seems minor. Could the real issue not be that you're being too self-conscious, too afraid of how other people will see you?

[SirRob]

It does bother me, actually. It makes me feel ashamed in what I like. You don't even know how many times I've been called autistic for liking furries and/or animatronics.

I generally try to hide my interests because I know they're all sort of stigmatized. It's a good thing we have the internet so we can express our screwed up selves!

Honestly, I figure that guys that aren't comfortable with having gay dudes around them aren't really worth your time anyways. It's not like that will affect many interactions between friends, especially if you're good friends and you can "joke around" like that.

If anything, I could maybe see getting uncomfortable because you get a crush on one of them... That's happened to me before, and that might make things weird.

I hope you get over the dilemma you're having. It just needs a little more thought. I think you can overcome what you're feeling right now. Honestly, I'm friends with lots of straight guys, even after they knew I was into dudes and even after I came out as trans. You have a winning personality, Rob; let that shine through and your sexuality won't define you =)

I'm talking more about men in general, not friends. When I interact with men I always consider what I say and do a little more than I do with women, because I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable and I don't want to be hurt.
Also I get attracted to like every other guy I see. Thank you for the compliments and support!

[Eggdodger]

I'm talking more about men in general, not friends. When I interact with men I always consider what I say and do a little more than I do with women, because I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable and I don't want to be hurt.
Also I get attracted to like every other guy I see. Thank you for the compliments and support!

Well, just remember that nobody knows your preferences on sight. I think that most people will assume you're just being friendly. If you value those interactions with particular men, you wouldn't want to come off as especially reserved, either. Seeing as I'm attracted to both sexes, I definitely try to be considerate of my actions in general. I see where you're coming from.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Eggdodger

[SirRob]

There's things called 'internalized homophobia' and 'internalized misogyny' and so on. The gist is that you believe and feel this way about some things becaus it was brought up around you in some way, during important cognitive years.

There isn't a word for it, but for instance, I got terrorized by kids with severe Downs and other serious mental diseases when I was younger. To this day, I freak out about other people having mental illnesses and inherently want to 'not associate' with them, even though I myself have a severe mental illness. The severe stigma coupled with the bad events of my childhood makes me feel angry and disgusted towards people with mental illnesses, and then now I'm disgusted with myself because I have a mental illness. I'm so fucking self aware I know when it's happening, but I can't stop it. Vicious cycle, etc. 

Could that have happened to you in some way? Maybe media you saw was fairly homophobic, a dad.. I mean, a lot of pop culture makes effeminate gay men several butts of jokes. Gay men suffer because they run the risk that in the event of someone supporting them as gay, someone can "over-support" and broadcast about their new "gay best friend" and go shopping and other stereotypical "gay male" roles. And that's something you dislike because in some form you were taught to dislike it?

It could not be this exact example, but its a very "popular" issue with gay men because of the stereotype. Several personal friends have suffered because of this. 

I feel like I'm in a therapy session! In terms of my prejudice, I don't really have the justification that you have. Growing up though, I was always treated differently by both other kids and the people around me in general. And when I learned what autism was, I found that I had traits in common with it; social awkwardness, mostly. I questioned for a while whether I had it or not. I had a fear that I could be autistic, even though I was never diagnosed with it or anything.

I'm not homophobic. Or did I misinterpret what you were saying? I can say that I've had a few experiences where I've made guys very uncomfortable when interacting with them, so that's where my caution comes from.

I hate to tell you this, but that ship probably sailed when you started posting on forums like this one.

OK, I'll be serious.
Autistic people are probably far more afraid of being associated with the furry fandom than you are of being connected to autism spectrum disorders.

Goddammit, I couldn't help myself.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but the two examples you chose here seem telling. The first case you say outright that you don't want something you are interested in becoming associated too strongly with autism. That's not that crazy. Mental disorders carry a lot of stigma with them and no one wants that following them around if they can help it. But why would being tenuously connected to something transfer negative feelings like that; is there the fear that other people will make said association and judge you on it (or worse)? (Now I slip into full-blown speculation.)

I wonder this because your second paragraph is about concern over how other men will treat you based on prejudice towards gay men. This explicitly involves the belief that other people will connect you to something they are prejudiced against and that will carry consequences, which doesn't seem that different from the issue in the first paragraph. Of course, there is the difference from the first case that you are in fact gay but apparently not autistic; however, if we're playing six degrees of assumed bigotry then that distinction seems minor. Could the real issue not be that you're being too self-conscious, too afraid of how other people will see you?

Rationally, worrying about being associated with autistic people is really unfair towards them, because they can't help it, and it's not something they can or should change. The problem isn't them, it's the stigma that people in general have. 

Yes, I am very concerned with how other people see me! When I was in middle and high school, I would always say, oh, I don't care what others think of me. Which is silly, because I -totally- care about that. And, well, how can I not be concerned about it? Our whole world is based around appearances. It affects all of your interactions with people. And because I'm far from a normal person (yet a person who likes who they are), I need to make up for that by being -especially- concerned about my appearance. I would say I have the perfect amount of self-consciousness for a person like me.

[Onnes]

Rationally, worrying about being associated with autistic people is really unfair towards them, because they can't help it, and it's not something they can or should change. The problem isn't them, it's the stigma that people in general have. 

But if what you care about is how people who are not you see you, then what autism, or whatever else, is or isn't is completely irrelevant.

Yes, I am very concerned with how other people see me! When I was in middle and high school, I would always say, oh, I don't care what others think of me. Which is silly, because I -totally- care about that. And, well, how can I not be concerned about it? Our whole world is based around appearances. It affects all of your interactions with people. And because I'm far from a normal person (yet a person who likes who they are), I need to make up for that by being -especially- concerned about my appearance. I would say I have the perfect amount of self-consciousness for a person like me.

Everyone is concerned about appearances; however, how far you take that concern is a matter of degree and personal preference. It sounds like you're experiencing cognitive dissonance because you're trying to avoid being associated with anything out of the ordinary, while at the same time you realize that in doing so you are essentially replicating the very same prejudices you want to avoid.

[SirRob]

But if what you care about is how people who are not you see you, then what autism, or whatever else, is or isn't is completely irrelevant.

Everyone is concerned about appearances; however, how far you take that concern is a matter of degree and personal preference. It sounds like you're experiencing cognitive dissonance because you're trying to avoid being associated with anything out of the ordinary, while at the same time you realize that in doing so you are essentially replicating the very same prejudices you want to avoid.

I think you're close, but what's actually going on is a little different. I don't think I treat people who have autism the same way that others treat people with autism; I'm not replicating what I see. I think I treat autistic folks with a distaste (at least, in my head; I honestly don't recall too many interactions with them), while in my experience most people treat them as they would a child. I personally think the latter is more insulting, having experienced both. So while I do have a stigma, it takes a different form from what I've experienced. But other than that, you're right. I'm definitely going through some cognitive dissonance (I had to look that up). I think I experience cognitive dissonance in many other subjects, as well. I always try to see things from all sides, and so I'm often conflicted about matters of opinion and moral values.

Edited October 20, 2015 by SirRob

[#00Buck]

This story is autastic!

[Zaraphayx]

Most of my friends are straight men who know that I'm into guys and some of the stuff we say to each other is still really fucking gay. 

Unless you hang out with homophobes I wouldn't worry about that one so much. 

[Vae]

Honestly, if you're treating people in an unfair way because of your own deep-seeded insecurities, that's something you really need to take up with yourself and take personal responsibility for.

You've recognized it?
Good.
Now recognize it when it happens, and use your knowledge to redirect your thought process.

[Hewge]

TBH pretty much anything is associated with a mental disorder, these days :v

[Gamedog]

The fact that "autism" has become synonymous with something bad or undesirable to some people is really depressing.

[Spot]

I think I'd rather be Autistic than Gay, but both are equally bad. Lol this thread is so Autistic and Gay...

[Gamedog]

Autistic people are living and enjoying their lives just like you do, is it really that upsetting that you share an interest with someone who is autistic?
What if I told you about an interesting sticker I saw on a car window a couple weeks ago? It basically said something along the jist of that the driver is autistic and in the event of an emergency, might not respond to questions, etc. Would that freak you out if you knew autistics did things like drive cars?

[Kaizy]

The fact that "autism" has become synonymous with something bad or undesirable to some people is really depressing.

It's not surprising since people throw it around all the time as a synonym for "stupid" or insulting someone. It paints autism as this terrible thing that should be avoided and put down, and pushes people from accepting it for what it is. It's a damned shame.

[Gamedog]

It's not surprising since people throw it around all the time as a synonym for "stupid" or insulting someone. It paints autism as this terrible thing that should be avoided and put down, and pushes people from accepting it for what it is. It's a damned shame.

I'm really not a fan of "autistic" being thrown around as an insult. Seems to mostly be trolls doing it though, and has gained it's popularity on the chan boards.

[Kaizy]

I'm really not a fan of "autistic" being thrown around as an insult. Seems to mostly be trolls doing it though, and has gained it's popularity on the chan boards.

Trust me, it's gone beyond just 4chan and such. It's basically the new "retard". I'm seeing that word slowly going out of style and I'm hearing a lot more "autism/autistic" in its place.

[Gamedog]

Trust me, it's gone beyond just 4chan and such. It's basically the new "retard". I'm seeing that word slowly going out of style and I'm hearing a lot more "autism/autistic" in its place.

Oh I know it has, I was just saying where it originated/gained popularity.

The people who use it are people who don't deserve the time of day.

[Kaizy]

Oh I know it has, I was just saying where it originated/gained popularity.

The people who use it are people who don't deserve the time of day.

Pretty much.

[Nova]

I mean being called autistic is not nice but people with autism are better in one thing than an normal human.

 

But your right, i find it bad to be called autistic only because being a furry.

[SirRob]

Honestly, if you're treating people in an unfair way because of your own deep-seeded insecurities, that's something you really need to take up with yourself and take personal responsibility for.

You've recognized it?
Good.
Now recognize it when it happens, and use your knowledge to redirect your thought process.

I only rarely interact with people who have autism, and I haven't in recent memory. I wouldn't say I treat autistic people unfairly when I interact with them, but I do think I treat them unfairly in my thoughts and in my interactions with people who might think I have a mental disorder based on my own social awkwardness and interests. I think I can work on the former, and making this thread certainly helps with that. But I don't know how I would even approach the latter. Like, I can't stand it when people treat me differently from others, because I'm quiet and awkward, or because I have weird hobbies. Like Onnes said, it ties into my own self-consciousness. I don't have the confidence in myself to take that sort of treatment in stride, and at the same time respect people who have a legitimate biological problem with social interaction. I don't think it's something I can just fix by 'redirecting my thought process'.

Autistic people are living and enjoying their lives just like you do, is it really that upsetting that you share an interest with someone who is autistic?
What if I told you about an interesting sticker I saw on a car window a couple weeks ago? It basically said something along the jist of that the driver is autistic and in the event of an emergency, might not respond to questions, etc. Would that freak you out if you knew autistics did things like drive cars?

Was this directed at me? Why would that freak me out? I thought autism only affected social interaction for the most part.

Edited October 21, 2015 by SirRob

[Onnes]

I only rarely interact with people who have autism, and I haven't in recent memory.

On the high functioning side of the spectrum, you won't know whether or not someone is autistic unless they tell you. That one term is used to described people ranging from tenured academics to those largely unable to communicate just invites confusion.

I wouldn't say I treat autistic people unfairly when I interact with them, but I do think I treat them unfairly in my thoughts and in my interactions with people who might think I have a mental disorder based on my own social awkwardness and interests. 

I thought this was more or less clear in your original post. Or at least there was nothing in it to suggest that you actually treated anyone poorly, and the implication from the post itself was that you certainly wouldn't want to. I think we all have our own unwanted prejudices, whether we admit to any of them or not, and if someone were to tell me that they did not then I would not trust them.

I think it's far more productive to actually discuss such things rather than pretend they don't exist so as to avoid being labeled as some variety of bigot.

[SirRob]

On the high functioning side of the spectrum, you won't know whether or not someone is autistic unless they tell you. That one term is used to described people ranging from tenured academics to those largely unable to communicate just invites confusion.

I thought this was more or less clear in your original post. Or at least there was nothing in it to suggest that you actually treated anyone poorly, and the implication from the post itself was that you certainly wouldn't want to. I think we all have our own unwanted prejudices, whether we admit to any of them or not, and if someone were to tell me that they did not then I would not trust them.

I think it's far more productive to actually discuss such things rather than pretend they don't exist so as to avoid being labeled as some variety of bigot.

I knew there was a high functioning side of Asperger's, but I didn't know there was a high functioning side of Autism as well. Shows how much I know about the whole thing. I guess I should do some research some time. : )

Thank you for reading carefully and taking the time to analyze the situation. I agree that everyone has prejudices, albeit at different levels of severity. Doesn't make them okay though, and mine certainly isn't.

I think this was a solid discussion, I'm happy that people gave their input. I can use that to figure out my own way to get over this.

[Luca]

My brother in middle school is severely autistic and I don't think he'll ever get to a point in which he'll be able to interact with more than a few people. For the longest time growing up I hated that I couldn't shake a feeling of embarrassment when we were in public together. I mean I always loved the kid, but I couldn't change my own uncomfort at the same time. I still feel bad about it. With time though and a lot of growing up, I learned that in general other people don't think bad of me just for taking care of him or for him acting up under my watch. I hear people laugh at some of the stuff he does as they walk by, trying to hide it. I see people sizing him up, trying to figure out what is wrong with him. I see people who are just uncomfortable to be in his presence. It's not uncommon, and I don't get mad at these people anymore. It's rare to find a person who legitimately has a hatred of autistic people. I know they would stop themselves if they could, but it's hard to get rid of instinctual feelings. Honestly, it's not something most people will get over unless they directly interact with one for a long period of time.

I do really feel you on the second point too. I'm just not naturally a very open person about my sexuality. I tell people the truth if they ask, but I don't bring it up. I don't tell people which guys I think are hot. I don't mention anything about my dating life. (lol what dating life?) I worry I might make people feel uneasy, so I avoid saying what few things I could. This isn't the case around my friends, luckily I can be pretty open and say some real gay stuff. Hell, they joke worse things between each other then I'd usually say myself. 

[Troj]

Well, my first reaction is, learning that pedophiles like Count Chocula cereal or that Neo-Nazis enjoy horror films shouldn't stop you from liking seasonal cereal or horror movies. If you allow someone else's preference or behavior to automatically dictate your own, you're handing over your power to somebody else.

I feel autistic people have many positive qualities, so I personally don't have a problem with possessing positive or useful so-called "autistic" traits or interests.

I'm only insulted when people insinuate that I'm "autistic" because they don't have the balls to just say I'm creepy, alienating, and weird.

Oh, and Aspergers as its own diagnosis is no longer in the DSM. Now, it's all just Autism Spectrum Disorder. (Personally, I think this was a bad call on the DSM committee's part, but they didn't ask me.)

If you're concerned about harboring this bias against people with mental illnesses or neurological quirks, then perhaps you might consider volunteering with an organization or agency which caters to such people, or with a special education classroom. This might allow you to get to know these sorts of people in a way that will help you to understand them better and empathize with them more. As a start, you might consider researching autism and other diagnoses, to get a better grasp of how they affect people on the physical and personal level.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Troj

[Onnes]

Oh, and Aspergers as its own diagnosis is no longer in the DSM. Now, it's all just Autism Spectrum Disorder. (Personally, I think this was a bad call on the DSM committee's part, but they didn't ask me.)

The "Aspergers" name needed to be retired at least. I think South Park got it right when Cartman could not believe anyone would call a developmental disorder that. It definitely seems like the old Aspergers definition led to a flood of marginal diagnoses. Doubt that any changes to the DSM will ever fix that, though. 

[#00Buck]

An ass burger would taste awful.

[Phausk]

The fact that "autism" has become synonymous with something bad or undesirable to some people is really depressing.

Not trying to be offensive, but why would it be desired?

Edited October 22, 2015 by Phausk

[Troj]

Well, because Silicon Valley probably wouldn't exist, if not for people with autistic features.

Autistic people are often focused, precise, observant, and obsessive, and higher-functioning folks often develop special proficiency in a particular area. Many autistic people have a particular knack for working with machines.

I tend to agree with Temple Grandin that if not for autistic people, we'd still be living in caves, picking nits off of each other and discussing Oog's new girlfriend.

[Butters]

 

Yesterday, I was thinking about how I interact with men. I have to be really reserved and cautious around them, because I, well, I'm pretty darn gay and I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable. I wished that straight guys weren't so concerned about being associated with gay people, because it's not like there's anything WRONG with us. And then I realized how bigoted and hypocritical my discomfort and thoughts from before were. The unease I felt watching that show, and the unease straight guys must feel around gays, must be pretty darn similar. How can I wish for something like that when I can't even get over my own prejudice?

 

I don't really see the connection between this and autism. But i used to change my behavior (slightly) for men in my interactions. But mostly so I wouldnt get discriminated at in the workplace. 

But after a while that gets real real old and you just act like yourself anyway. I kinda speak like a Flamer so it's kinda hard not to face discrimination in the South anyway. 

For this reason, I find it hard to be around men. Especially straight men. But my advice to you is to stop giving a fuck about them and be an alpha queer. 

Edited October 22, 2015 by Butters
fuck autocorrect

[Imperial Impact]

Also I get attracted to like every other guy I see.

Fucking how?