Shit is hitting the fan

[Rassah]

Sorry guys, but we're about to enter a really shitty time in our lives. I've been predicting that an economic recession will be starting at the end of 2015 or early 2016 for over a year now, and looks like we're right on schedule:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-01-06/us-factory-orders-deep-recession-tumble-yoy-13th-month-row

https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2016/01/04/world-stock-markets-crash-to-start-2016-trading-suspended-in-china-on-first-day-of-year.html (please disregard the advertising for subscriptions)

Greece jumped a bit early, having their fallout in the Summer, but China and US were right on que with their stock issues in the fall, and now China seems to be imploding, with a 7% drop in stock on Monday, causing US to have the worst opening year drop in stock price since the great depression, and, after China closed their market for a bit, now both China and US seem to continue their decline, with yet another 7% drop in price. UK and EU seem to be following US.

What this means is that we're about to enter a world of hurt on a global scale. Last time, to try to fix things, we bailed out our banks, and US and Europe lowered interest rates (on borrowing) to try to stimulate the economy, along with printing tons of money to give banks so they can lend it out and invest it (Quantitative Easing/QE). Unfortunately, this time it's doubtful anyone would want to bail out banks again, interest rates are already near zero (0.25%) in US and actually negative in parts of Europe, and QE is continuing to happen, though is threatening an inflation problem in the future. So, basically, we are already stepping on the gas to try to keep moving the economy forward, and there are no options left to save it. 

So, brace yourselves. 2008 is about to repeat itself. 1929-1930 may even about to repeat itself. 2016 is looking like it's going to be a horrible year for many people, with lots of unprecedented problems (hopefully not a run on the stock market, since that will be the worst thing ever). Hold on to your jobs, hold on to your money, and I just hope we don't end up with another war because of this.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Rassah

[Wrecker]

You... You?

You are predicting a recession?

You're a little late, bud.

And for the record, this shit is a lot worse than 2008.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Wrecker

[Khaki]

Wonderful, so it means this side of country is still going stuck in an economic quagmire until before getting hit again in 2017, might as well do what everyone did in 1930 and bugger off out in the bush looking for work out on the farms.

[Muugu]

I highly doubt this would lead to a war...

[WileyWarWeasel]

Actually our economic problems could be said to have begun in the 1970s, after the cheapest reserve of oil was found and extraction costs began to gradually increase from there. In order to compensate for this world debt began to grow at a faster rate than GDP. This unsustainable trend has remained with us to the present day.

EDIT: also forgot to mention that most other resources have also increased in extraction costs.

Edited January 7, 2016 by WileyWarWeasel
Extra

[Spot]

Capitalism...

[Khaki]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Fox said:

Capitalism...

Now you've gone and started it.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Khaki

[AshleyAshes]

3 hours ago, Wrecker said:

You... You?

You are predicting a recession?

You're a little late, bud.

And for the record, this shit is a lot worse than 2008.

It's not his fault that he can't post without talking about believing that he's the center of the topic!  It's a documented medical condition!

[Spot]

15 minutes ago, Khaki said:

Now you've gone and started it.

I'll be waiting for the men in black suits to come and get me.

5 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

It's not his fault that he can't post without talking about believing that he's the center of the topic!  It's a documented medical condition!

Oh, the irony.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Mr. Fox

[Butters]

EVERYBODY PANIC!!!!!!! 

Also, ppl have predicted this (or something similar) for a while. Breaking up the banks looks like a good idea now, dont it. ;3

[Hewge]

It's fiiiiiiine. Everything is fine ~

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

How about instead of trying to focus on every little negative thing in life, we try to stay positive for once? For fuck's sake.

[DrGravitas]

Hide yo wife, hide yo kids, Hideo Kojima.

OK, let's say that worst case is about to happen. Then what? How exactly do we hold on to our money? In our mattress? Bitcoin? Honestly, I'm curious how one can expect to weather an economic apocalypse.

 

[Azure]

Whatever. I am of the thought that we know even less about money as a species than our own brain. 

[DrGravitas]

17 minutes ago, 6tails said:

Tangible assets, as always. The economy can crash, which will bring every currency, including bitcoin, right down with it, but gold, silver, copper, mercury and other minerals will always have medical, industrial, agricultural and other uses/value, so those will once again become the things for barter and trade.

Material objects are always more resistant to depressions and recessions than any fiat currency ever will be.

That... actually makes sense. Though I'm guessing we shouldn't invest in fine art at the moment.

 

[Therapy Sergal]

Is it a rant or a rave ?

[AshleyAshes]

I work in the bread and circus industry anyway.

[#00Buck]

Almost everyone on this forum is broke and lives on top ramen.

Economic advice is useless.

[AshleyAshes]

3 minutes ago, #00Buck said:

Almost everyone on this forum is broke and lives on top ramen.

Economic advice is useless.

Why do poor people eat ramen instead of Kraft Dinner?

[Terminal7]

2 minutes ago, 6tails said:

Because it's cheaper to fortify ramen into a useful meal than a Kraft dinner.

Sounds like a potion in Skyrim lol

 

[Snagged]

1 hour ago, Azure said:

Whatever. I am of the thought that we know even less about money as a species than our own brain. 

In a globalized world we live in, you can compare the circulation of money in our society to our electro-chemical signals travelling between the neural cells of our brain

[Zeke]

1 hour ago, AshleyAshes said:

Why do poor people eat ramen instead of Kraft Dinner?

Canada's Kraft mac is probably better than US's Kraft mac. 

[Zeke]

Just now, 6tails said:

It is. Canada's got a few stricter regulations on what is acceptable for food. California's almost close to Canada's levels of food nannyism.

But kids love yellow 5 and 6! D:

[Azure]

1 hour ago, AshleyAshes said:

Why do poor people eat ramen instead of Kraft Dinner?

Why does anyone eat ramen at all? not real actual ramen but that nasty 34 cent a package plastic tasting shit. I get that you are either too lazy to learn how to cook, or get a job during college, or any other lame excuse for putting that toxic salt lick garbage tier food into your body, but please dont say its tasty. Stop fooling yourselves

[pheonixbat]

5 minutes ago, Azure said:

Why does anyone eat ramen at all? not real actual ramen but that nasty 34 cent a package plastic tasting shit. I get that you are either too lazy to learn how to cook, or get a job during college, or any other lame excuse for putting that toxic salt lick garbage tier food into your body, but please dont say its tasty. Stop fooling yourselves

Oh this familiar argument again.

 

Go eat your $50 an apple organic food with all the other rich people.

[Kinharia]

Wait the recession ended? We're still going through the 2008 one here!

[Azure]

5 minutes ago, pheonixbat said:

Oh this familiar argument again.

 

Go eat your $50 an apple organic food with all the other rich people.

What argument? Its a fact that ramen is empty calories, pretty much devoid of nutritional value. I dont see where i argued anything about organic food, but if the reasons i posted resonate with you thatd be your problem not mine. Just remember that you are what ypu eat so garbage in garbage out

Edited January 7, 2016 by Azure
Super edit, im poor like anybody else, i just enjoy good with flavor and nutritional value because i value my health over stupid distracting bullshit

[Vallium]

I dont want the world 2 b poor

[Rassah]

10 hours ago, Wrecker said:

You... You?

You are predicting a recession?

Yes. I have been predicting this since at least early 2014, and have been casually warning my friends and family with "I expect the next one in Q4 of 2015 or early 2016." This is based on what I have been seeing developing around the world. Others have been predicting this even further back, but I didn't really believe them. I didn't really bother posting here until I was more or less sure.

Quote

And for the record, this shit is a lot worse than 2008.

I fear it may be, but I am hopeful it won't be? Basically, yes, we have exhausted our means of propping up the economy, the regulations to prevent another 2008 made banks even more "too big to fail," and we are looking at a possible run on the stock market, with stocks declining to something like 15% to 20% in the worst case scenario (in 2008 they only dropped to about 50%). But, I'm really wishing and hoping that things won't get that bad.

8 hours ago, Muugu said:

I highly doubt this would lead to a war...

In US, no. In Europe, it might. Greece, Italy, and other economically depressed countries are having nationalist (fascist and communist) movements take hold and rise to power. Don't forget, WW2 happened because of Germany's economic and currency troubles.

7 hours ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

Actually our economic problems could be said to have begun in the 1970s, after the cheapest reserve of oil was found and extraction costs began to gradually increase from there.

If you mean the "peak oil" type thing, I'm not sure if that would be relevant. When one resource starts to run out, it becomes more expensive, and other resources start being developed. We were running low on whale oil, and found petroleum. Now we are advancing electric and biodiesel. It's natural for one resource to deplete, and another to come take its place. Also, Saudis are currently pumping and selling oil like crazy, which is why gas prices are so low right now. So, no, I don't think oil is an issue here. Breaking off the gold standard and inflating our economy with "fake" value money, on the other hand...

 

6 hours ago, Mr. Fox said:

Capitalism...

Uh, no. This is most definitely not caused by capitalism. In Europe the cause is socialism, with some countries having social programs they can't afford to pay for, and running their debts up to where there are unsustainable and no one wants to give them any more money (the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money). In UK, as in US, part of the problem is regulatory capture by the banks, where banks control the regulatory agencies and make them allow banks to get away with stuff. Like screwing with interest rates, or continuing to create and sell bad securities (similar to the mortgage backed ones that cause 2008). In US specifically, the main problem was caused by the Federal Reserve, keeping interest rates too low to try to stimulate the economy, which gave completely wrong signals on investing and got businesses stuck expecting a fake boom that will never come, and with the Quantitative Easing where they would print billions of dollars and hand them to the banks so banks will lend it out, but banks, knowing the actual status of our economy and not finding anything worthwhile to invest in, just plowed all that money into stocks and bonds, creating a bubble in both similar to the housing bubble we saw in 2008.

So, no, none of this was capitalism's fault. It was all just socialist programs (by European governments) and central planning (by the Fed) coming to their natural, inevitable conclusion.

 

3 hours ago, DrGravitas said:

OK, let's say that worst case is about to happen. Then what? How exactly do we hold on to our money? In our mattress? Bitcoin? Honestly, I'm curious how one can expect to weather an economic apocalypse.

I don't know if this will be an economic apocalypse per-se. I certainly hope not. I hope that at most we will see issues like unemployment jumping from 6% to 20%+, businesses closing down, and more people losing their houses. A worse case would also be people losing their retirement and pensions, and governments around the world trying to save their power and control (which they'll pass off as "trying to protect the people and those most vulnerable in our society") by putting severe restrictions on people's money, increasing taxes to keep their social programs going, and getting even more totalitarian.

Chances are you won't need tangible assets, unless you are in a country with a totally collapsed currency. If inflation hits a few 100%, like it did in USSR when it ended, and in Zimbabwe later, and the economy goes back to being a barter one, then yes, you might as well buy necessities and trade with those. But if the money still works, just invest in something other than that money.

Unfortunately, tangible goods, especially things like gold, put you at a high risk of theft, and at risk from your own government. USA has seized people's gold once. I wouldn't be surprised if other countries tried that this time. Plus it's difficult to transact with and transport across borders. If countries do institute strict currency controls, expect to be thoroughly searched, and it to be confiscated at the border.

Honestly, yes, fuck you trolls, but bitcoin is the best option right now. It is an asset, not a currency, is independent of any government or political issues, and its #1 core feature is value transfer, including anonymous if needed (that's where its use value comes from, being able to actually send value easily). It will be especially valuable in the next few years, specifically because it completely bypasses any currency controls and regulations. Just this morning it jumped 6%, after the Chinese Shanghai Index dropped 7%. People in China have been using it for over a year now to hedge against the Yuan, which is also going down, and to be able to be in complete control of their money should they need to send it elsewhere. Same for people in Argentina.People I talk to who work in high level banking and economics positions (CFOs, economic analysts) estimate that bitcoin will also be used by wealthy people in Europe to move their assets out of the country, probably into US at first. Should that happen, bitcoin price will rocket upwards during the recession, as opposed to "crash like the other currencies." But, anyway, that's my honest informed opinion.

As for what to do to weather this? Save as much as you can right now while you still can. Be prepared to move if your area becomes economically depressed (you want to move out first, not last). Be prepared to take massive risks, like dropping everything and going elsewhere even if you risk homelessness. Learn a skill that will always be useful, even if it doesn't pay much. And be prepared to work hard to prove yourself among many others in the same position as you. I would say invest in Bitcoin too, but honestly I don't care to push that idea here. No one listened when I pushed it on FAF when it was $7, I don't expect anything more than more ridicule now that it's at $450.

1 hour ago, Kinharia said:

Wait the recession ended? We're still going through the 2008 one here!

Well, true... We sort of had a recovery from the deep drop of 2008, which lasted maybe a year, followed by years of essentially flat stagnation. Been saying this for years, too, while others have been telling me how Obama is great and saved our economy while pointing at the stock market bubble, and "official" 5% unemployment rates while actual one still hovers at 16% to 20%...

 

Oh, one last thing. Might as well put it out there. If you run into massive trouble, like you find yourself practically homeless in the middle of something like Detroit with no money to move, or you find yourself in a country quickly becoming the next Nazi Germany or USSR, and you need help getting the f out across the border, please let me know. I have resources and connections,  have no qualms against helping to break the law (only unjust tyranical government types), and would be willing to help if I can. I'm Rassah everywhere online, so I should be easy to find. If we're all lucky though, everyone should be fine except for just another short economic woe like the dozen we've had before.

[Joel]

we're Fucked ladies and gentlemen :V

[Kinharia]

Sorry Rassah. The reason that where I live still being in prolonged recession is thanks to a Conservative Government implimenting their failed policies constantly over. Capitalism is the cause, not socialism which would've saved the poorest and punished the richest like it should have.

[Rassah]

11 minutes ago, Kinharia said:

Sorry Rassah. The reason that where I live still being in prolonged recession is thanks to a Conservative Government implimenting their failed policies constantly over. Capitalism is the cause, not socialism which would've saved the poorest and punished the richest like it should have.

You live in Ireland? I can comment more on your country's situation if I know what it is.

FYI, conservatives, at least the ones in US, aren't capitalist either. They're mostly fascist, trying to set up their own corporate friends with political advantages for personal benefits, at the expense of other businesses, competition, and capitalism in general.

[WileyWarWeasel]

6 minutes ago, Rassah said:

If you mean the "peak oil" type thing, I'm not sure if that would be relevant. When one resource starts to run out, it becomes more expensive, and other resources start being developed. We were running low on whale oil, and found petroleum. Now we are advancing electric and biodiesel. It's natural for one resource to deplete, and another to come take its place. Also, Saudis are currently pumping and selling oil like crazy, which is why gas prices are so low right now. So, no, I don't think oil is an issue here. Breaking off the gold standard and inflating our economy with "fake" value money, on the other hand...

Just to clarify, are you saying that we'll replace all vehicles with electric vehicles or that biodiesel will entirely replace oil?

What about the non-energy uses of oil? What about the feasibility of replacing (formerly) cheap sources of energy such as oil and coal with more expensive types such as solar that have under performed so far? (eg www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-to-deliver-1434138485)

What about the fact that even with expensive renewables the vehicles involved in transporting materials/parts/etc for solar panels/windmills/etc are still fossil-fuel powered and that converting them also to electric would make already expensive renewables even more expensive?

What about the economic costs of replacing absolutely all vehicles with electric? What about the fact that biofuels provide much poorer returns on investment compared to oil and they compete with cropland for food? (eg http://energy-reality.org/biofuels/)

These are the questions that in my opinion many people fail to consider when thinking that we can simply transition from formerly cheap energy sources to more expensive types.

[Onnes]

Capitalism is not a synonym for Laissez-faire. Laissez-faire is a particular, and extreme, system of capitalism. 

[Luka]

Dude, it's like , material stuff , y' know? We don't , like, need money and stuff to live. Everything is totally, like, alright.

[Joel]

Wow very skari much economic instability save yourself invest in donations like bitcoins but better 

http://dogecoin.com/

[Kinharia]

9 minutes ago, Rassah said:

You live in Ireland? I can comment more on your country's situation if I know what it is.

FYI, conservatives, at least the ones in US, aren't capitalist either. They're mostly fascist, trying to set up their own corporate friends with political advantages for personal benefits, at the expense of other businesses, competition, and capitalism in general.

I live in the North of Ireland Rassah, What happens in Westminster affects us more than what happens in Dublin (but Dublin does have a lot of influence which is good). However combined with the poor showing of the English Conservatives and the British Conservatives here in the North then we have a recipe for disaster. We have two parties sharing power. One is Socialist and the other is Conservative-Capitalist, neither of them can agree on anything and the Conservatives win in the end thanks to the Conversatives in England. Not to mention the British Population constantly bringing Ethnicity into everything, they use it as an excuse to keep us in the Irish population in extremely poor conditions.

[AshleyAshes]

Rassah called us trolls, said fuck us, but he still really wants us to listen and respect his opinion.  Why does Rassah seek our approval of him?

[Zeke]

I don't know...I don't want to validate someone after he said fuck you. 

 

Anyways, I got a bitcoin a while back when it was around 20 because a friend of mine owed me money for carfare.   It is sitting at 450.00 USD. I think I may buy 450 bucks in lotto tickets or furry porn. :V

1 hour ago, Rassah said:

while others have been telling me how Obama is great and saved our economy while pointing at the stock market bubble, and "official" 5% unemployment rates while actual one still hovers at 16% to 20%...

 

[Kinharia]

28 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

9 minutes ago, Zeke said:

 I think I may buy 450 bucks in lotto tickets or furry porn. :V

 

Buy the porn!

[Azure]

this thread is p top kek

[Rassah]

33 minutes ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

Just to clarify, are you saying that we'll replace all vehicles with electric vehicles or that biodiesel will entirely replace oil?

Not exactly. I don't know what will replace oil. I can't predict that. No one can. I'm just saying that when one resource starts getting depleted, it becomes more expensive, making the more expensive new ones competitive. Then once people start using that newer more expensive one, production of it increases, economies of scale take over, new innovations in that resource happen, and that resource becomes cheaper. It's a never ending cycle of stuff goes up in price, we switch to something else, it goes down in price, we start running out, stuff goes up in price, we switch to something else...

33 minutes ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

What about the non-energy uses of oil?

If you mean plastics and such, we can somewhat simulate those uses with bio alternatives, and in worst case scenario can mine plastics out of our own landfills.

33 minutes ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

What about the feasibility of replacing (formerly) cheap sources of energy such as oil and coal with more expensive types such as solar that have under performed so far?

I expect solar will continue to get cheaper. But we also have wind, and natural gas, and even hydrogen is getting lower in price and starting to be somewhat competitive. Yes, I know hydrogen isn't an energy source, but an energy carrier, but we are finding more and more ways of producing it cheaply.

33 minutes ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

What about the economic costs of replacing absolutely all vehicles with electric

The life expectancy of a car is only about 10 years. As older cars get worn out, they will get replaced with hybrids, and then with pure electric. There's no need to suddenly switch everyone. It will simply happen on its own, just like the switch to hybrid is happening simply because more and more cars are offering that option.

But, the actual number of vehicles is going to go down over the years. Right now everyone (in US) needs a car. We have Uber replacing the need for cars in some affluent cities. Once self driving cars become the norm, companies like Uber will be able to provide you with one when you need it, it will drive you where you need to go cheap, and you don't have to bother owning one. And with enough of those cars, there can be a reserve sitting somewhere charging up on solar or some other slow but cheap energy source.

33 minutes ago, WileyWarWeasel said:

What about the fact that biofuels provide much poorer returns on investment compared to oil and they compete with cropland for food?

You are right. And I don't think biofuels will be "it" in the long run. Better battery technology, and getting electricity from multiple varied sources, will be "it."

 

26 minutes ago, Onnes said:

Capitalism is not a synonym for Laissez-faire. Laissez-faire is a particular, and extreme, system of capitalism. 

I use the dictionary term for capitalism:

"an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market" - Webster
"an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth." - Dictionary.com
"An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market." - Wordnik
"A system of economics based on the private ownership of capital and production inputs, and on the production of goods and services for profit. The production of goods and services is based on supply and demand in the general market (market economy), rather than through central planning (planned economy)." - Investopedia

What many people incorrectly term "capitalism" is actually "corporatism" or fascism.

 

24 minutes ago, Joel said:

Wow very skari much economic instability save yourself invest in donations like bitcoins but better

You need to understand concepts like "Network Effects," "Speculative Attack," and "cryptocurrency mining" to understand why I advise things like Bitcoin, and would never recommend other coins. But, don't worry, not only will I not ask for donations or whatever, I won't even bother teaching people how to get this bitcoin thing. There's plenty of resources out there already.

P.S. the "fuck you" was specifically to certain trolls and individuals whom I've had issues with and arguments about this before. It's not you. Don't be so vain.

[Zeke]

8 minutes ago, Azure said:

this thread is p top kek

topkek is also tasty :3

[AshleyAshes]

This thread is not the serious discussion that Rassah somehow expected.

[Onnes]

13 minutes ago, Rassah said:

I use the dictionary term for capitalism:

"an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market" - Webster
"an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth." - Dictionary.com
"An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market." - Wordnik
"A system of economics based on the private ownership of capital and production inputs, and on the production of goods and services for profit. The production of goods and services is based on supply and demand in the general market (market economy), rather than through central planning (planned economy)." - Investopedia

What many people incorrectly term "capitalism" is actually "corporatism" or fascism.

Emphasis mine. Not that short dictionary definitions have any real value for this sort of politically and historically important term.
While extremists on the far edges of the political spectrum use absolute definitions of capitalism, its much more accepted usage is to refer to economic systems with strong and dynamic markets -- which is damn near all of them extant in the 21st century.

[Rassah]

1 hour ago, Kinharia said:

I live in the North of Ireland Rassah, What happens in Westminster affects us more than what happens in Dublin (but Dublin does have a lot of influence which is good). However combined with the poor showing of the English Conservatives and the British Conservatives here in the North then we have a recipe for disaster. We have two parties sharing power. One is Socialist and the other is Conservative-Capitalist, neither of them can agree on anything and the Conservatives win in the end thanks to the Conversatives in England. Not to mention the British Population constantly bringing Ethnicity into everything, they use it as an excuse to keep us in the Irish population in extremely poor conditions.

That "bringing in ethnicity into everything" sounds like it may be a nationalism problem, same as what's happening in Greece and starting to in France. Regarding what's happening in Ireland, here's what I know:

After the 2008 collapse, Ireland's economy crashed along with the rest of Europe's. The government there nationalized several banks (basically making their problem EVERYONE'S problem instead of just letting them fail), and tried to implement a National Recovery Plan, which required borrowing about $90 billion loan from the EU International Monetary Fund (IMF). The government's agenda (promise) was to get the economy back on track by 2015, but it has obviously failed. Now the loan (which YOU personally didn't borrow, nor agreed to, but are on the hook for) is looking like it will be in a second default (Ireland was already forced to restructure its loans and debt burden in 2013), since despite government efforts, 2014 didn't have much of economic growth at all. And, at the same time, Ireland continues to have huge social expenditures (you guys don't pay for your water???) while having too low of tax revenue to pay for all those social programs (your economy simply can not sustain them all).

While Ireland has a low corporate tax rate (only 12.5%), there are some issues which are keeping its economy stagnant, the biggest of which is it's business regulatory environment. For instance, it takes an average of 150 days to get the necessary permits to start a business. That's almost half a year! Generally foreign investors and businesses looking to set up in Ireland are scared off by that, and instead end up investing or starting up elsewhere. For comparison, starting a business in the top three economically free countries - Hong Kong, Singapore, and New Zealand - takes an average of one to five days. Unions denouncing foreign investment as "giveaway to corporate fatcats" doesn't help things either (and what actually ended up destroying Venezuela).

If you say that your government is stagnated, not being able to budge either way, then that just makes things worse. So, I expect what will happen is what always happens in your situation:

• Government has too much spending (social programs), and not enough income to cover that spending.
• Government has to borrow money to continue its spending. This means your government is promising its lenders that it will pay them back later, using future tax income from people like you, and your population's children.
• Since governments like these don't bother cutting that spending, eventually they reach a point where the borrowing is unsustainable, and the lenders simply don't believe that your government will be able to repay that money. So, your government has two choices: raise taxes, or finally start cutting social programs. In reality, your government has no choice, because "Think of the poor and the children! When ecomomic times are rough, that's when we have to spend even MORE on social programs!" So...
• Government raises taxes to try to make its money back to pay back the debt. But, just like taxes on cigarettes disincentivize people from smoking, taxes on businesses disincentivize people from starting a business, and sometimes even continuing it. This is on top of the regulatory issues I mentioned above (150 days just to start one).
• As businesses and wealth leaves the country, government is forced to increase taxes to keep trying to pay its debt, in turn making more businesses leave the country, and finally clamp down with capital controls, restricting the movement of money even further (which makes things tremendously worse for EVERYONE, not just businesses).

In the end, this never ends well. And is also not the fault of capitalism. Personally, I would advise you to move elsewhere as soon as you are able. You're a citizen of EU, so you should have no problem picking from a large choice of options.
 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Rassah

[Joel]

But rassah doge coins are doing great even better in some cases to bitcoins I feel the reason you are so quick to say you don't like it is because you have your stock in bitcoins http://m.mic.com/articles/79017/bitcoin-vs-dogecoin-which-one-is-really-worth-more#.yXW7qqts7

[Rassah]

10 minutes ago, Onnes said:

Emphasis mine. Not that short dictionary definitions have any real value for this sort of politically and historically important term.
While extremists on the far edges of the political spectrum use absolute definitions of capitalism, its much more accepted usage is to refer to economic systems with strong and dynamic markets -- which is damn near all of them extant in the 21st century.

There is a distinct difference between capitalism, and capitalism existing in a socialist economy. You can have regulated capitalism, capitalism influenced by a centrally planned economy it exists in, etc. But generally the issues of things like housing bubbles aren't caused by capitalism itself. Capitalism simply reacted to the bad information provided by the Fed with regards to interest rates.

Yes, you can try to fix the problem by simply limiting capitalism further, and lots of countries have tried that. Unfortunately, that always fails and just causes more problems. If you think "But we have been doing it for decades, and it still works!" guess what? We're watching it fail around the world now.

4 minutes ago, Joel said:

But rassah doge coins are doing great even better in some cases to bitcoins I feel the reason you are so quick to say you don't like it is because you have your stock in bitcoins http://m.mic.com/articles/79017/bitcoin-vs-dogecoin-which-one-is-really-worth-more#.yXW7qqts7

One of my employees (also a furry and a brony) wrote an excellent article on this topic http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/the-coming-demise-of-altcoins/ and his friend expanded on another similar issue http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/speculative-attack/

By the way, this argument over bitcoin vs. dogecoin and other altcoins, is also applicable to the absurd idea that different countries should have their own currencies (that's a completely new invention, as for thousands of years we've usually only had one), and also why in the end usually only one currency will survive above all others (it may be bitcoin, it may not be, but all government currencies have an issue where they rely on becoming more and more worthless, so it may just be up to attrition)

Edited January 7, 2016 by Rassah

[Joel]

3 minutes ago, Rassah said:

There is a distinct difference between capitalism, and capitalism existing in a socialist economy. You can have regulated capitalism, capitalism influenced by a centrally planned economy it exists in, etc. But generally the issues of things like housing bubbles aren't caused by capitalism itself. Capitalism simply reacted to the bad information provided by the Fed with regards to interest rates.

Yes, you can try to fix the problem by simply limiting capitalism further, and lots of countries have tried that. Unfortunately, that always fails and just causes more problems. If you think "But we have been doing it for decades, and it still works!" guess what? We're watching it fail around the world now.

One of my employees (also a furry and a brony) wrote an excellent article on this topic http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/the-coming-demise-of-altcoins/

Yet more than a year later dogecoin is still here and still going strong your a business man of course you're going to rail on the competition and attempt to persuade people your product is superior to the competition 

[Kinharia]

10 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Personally, I would advise you to move elsewhere as soon as you are able. You're a citizen of EU, so you should have no problem picking from a large choice of options.
 

I already plan to move to either France, Belgium or Germany eventually. Potentially Canada or the US if the right economic conditions allow it.