Class Action Lawsuit over VBulletin not allowing seeing user data

[Deo]

 

 

So it has come to my attention that as a part of VBulletin's user agreement all data would belong to the license owner and it is not lawful to sell the user data. Which leaves us the users as having been legally wronged. None of us can individually fund a lawsuit, but together we could. I am completely uncomfortable with the idea of IMVU owning and using my data and with Sean Piche (Dragoneer) having sold my data for a profit against VBulletin's agreements.

 

Your thoughts Phoenixers?

[Dr. Doggo]

I'll go for it. I'll get a buck for every post I made when Neer pays up.

[Clove Darkwave]

I'd love to see some comeuppance for all of this bullshit, and I want all of my data gone from that database. I don't believe it should be allowed to slide under the rug that we all got royally fucked.

Unfortunately I have no money to put into my mouth save the money I use to actually keep a living, breathing mouth.

[DevilishlyHandsome49]

I have no money to spend on a lawsuit but I'd be for it being pushed. All that data shouldn't just be gone or given to someone else. It belongs to us

[Clove Darkwave]

I have no money to spend on a lawsuit but I'd be for it being pushed. All that data shouldn't just be gone or given to someone else. It belongs to us

Agreed. Since apparently the data is sooooo important, except when it conveniently isn't.

[FlynnCoyote]

If you can get this sort of thing up and running and if we can ring up enough support to make it happen, then yes I'd chip in.

I have no need to go back to whatever FA does with its new version of the forums so I have no further qualms with that data being erased or returned to Carenath.

[Dr. Doggo]

Depending on how many people actually pitch in and how much pitching in will end up costing, I'm srs down for it. I just hope there's some kind of payout involved.

THIS IS EXCITING, I'VE NEVER SUED ANYBODY BEFORE

I am a real american now <3

[Guest]

I'd totally donate. I'd love for this to be the start of the actual downfall of 'neer himself. Like, IMVU would fire him, probably chase.. life ruined.. etc. 

[Clove Darkwave]

I'll be keeping my eyes on it. I dunno when I could but if you folks actually had it going I'd at least try to donate a few dollars to the cause. Every little bit helps. A small token of spite.

[Ginpanther]

I have no money to spend on a lawsuit but I'd be for it being pushed. All that data shouldn't just be gone or given to someone else. It belongs to us

This is what irks me overall. I've seen countless posts from people encouraging Carenath to martyr himself over the first rendition of Phoenix, but there is ultimately no palatable sponsorship behind that goading. So what, he should go out there and retain attorneys and pay for them out of our demands and fairy dust?!?

You are not wrong for wanting to stand up to the parties involved, but after a certain point unless you are an attorney doing pro-bono work or are willing to finance somebody else on your particular interest, you just have words the same way I only have words to wield on a generic forum. Because I am a prick I would really be willing to put $$ into this matter, but my contribution against the overall total bill would be so inconsequential to what Carenath would face I won't ask him to endure it. I'd rather focus on forgetting our past, embracing our present and building our glorious new community.

And as somebody who loves schadenfreude? This takes a lot for me to hold back on.

[Misomie]

I would totally donate to the cause. There is a ton of precious data and memories there. 

I can see it costing thousands though....

[PheagleAdler]

If Carenath basically handed over all the data and everything willingly, wouldn't that make the possibility of a lawsuit a bit more difficult? I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong here.

[Kurin]

If Carenath basically handed over all the data and everything willingly, wouldn't that make the possibility of a lawsuit a bit more difficult? I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong here.

He didn't.  He was threatened with legal action.

[TrishaCat]

Unfortunately I don't have money or legal knowledge so I'm not going to bother.

[Spot]

Wait, wait, wait! Are you implying that we could end up with some sort of settlement because dragon boy royally fucked up and broke the law? I might be down for that. Don't touch me I'll sue! Don't tread on me! >:C U.S.A! U.S.A! U.S.A!

Also I'm a little drunk. :3c 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2015 by Mr. Fox

[Wolflich]

I think before actually trying such a thing you'd really need to have a more concrete idea what it would cost (and whether it would work) and then maybe set up some sort of fund raiser of the variety that refunds people if the goal isn't met. Unfortunately I know nothing about laws except that you should never ever get caught.

[FlynnCoyote]

I agree. This is only worth pursuing if it is viable, and if Carenath actually wants to do it.

[TrishaCat]

I don't think we should push this on Carenath.

Isn't it our individual user responsibility to care about this? Why must he specifically do it?

[FlynnCoyote]

I don't think we should push this on Carenath.

Isn't it our individual user responsibility to care about this? Why must he specifically do it?

He's the one in best legal position. He owned the old site. He has a claim to it. You or I do not.

But given that he's essentially restarted Phoenix here, it may not be a priority anymore and we shouldn't presume it so. I would support a decision to pursue legal action as a matter of principle. I do not think it should be forced to happen however.

[Draconas]

would be nice if the asshat magically lost his copy as well, that I would love.

[ChaosCalix]

He's the one in best legal position. He owned the old site. He has a claim to it. You or I do not.

But given that he's essentially restarted Phoenix here, it may not be a priority anymore and we shouldn't presume it so. I would support a decision to pursue legal action as a matter of principle. I do not think it should be forced to happen however.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about the data if it is never used. I'm more in favor of pursing legal action in retaliation for blatant bully behaviour regarding the data being handed over, and because I've ALWAYS wanted to see 'neer sued for the bullshit he pulls. In this particular case, the Terms of Service are very clear that the data legally belongs to the license holder, so Carenath is absolutely, legally in the right to sue (at least, that's how I interpret it, I'm no legal expert). I'd love to see how IMVU, Piche and his buddies would respond if THEY found themselves threatened.

I'm not in a position to donate, however.. and was not part of the original forum, so heh. I suppose I have no leg to stand on in this discussion.

[ToxicAudri]

It's my understanding that this is actually a larger issue then just with Dragoneer, as Careneth was indeed the license owner, the legal issue falls to them, however Careneth may be the one in legal trouble, not Dragoneer, to be blunt and to the point, Dragoneer never agreed to the terms and conditions as he personally never bought the license Careneth did, now under my understanding of this first and foremost the license was never sold, rented, loaned, or what have you, Careneth retained full ownership of the license in question to my understanding.

 

However the ownership is stated to be strictly of that of vBulletin in section 2 this is where some legal trouble comes into play, none of us know the actual contract between IMVU and FA is and what is included in the terms and what ownership was transferred (even in name) if Dragoneer claimed to own the forums and the license or code for vBulletin then a case can be made as it was not his license or code to sell or offer up it was Careneth's license and vBulletin's code and Dragoneer only had use of it, not ownership even if he owned the brand behind the forums, while he likely did not sell the license he sold the data most likely, you know the thing he said he cares about most (speculation mostly)/

 

But in this case Careneth is actually entitled to see the contract between FA and IMVU as Careneth has a case to cover their ass from legal trouble should Dragoneer have sold Careneth's license or the code Careneth got with the license, should that code have been sold it puts Careneth in legal trouble with vBulletin while Dragoneer is once again off scott free, but Careneth would have a case against Dragoneer to sue him should Careneth be sued.

 

I am by no mean a legal expert, but I would help if I knew what license agreement Careneth agreed to, what was included in that license and such, if the forums were entirely coded by FA staff and Careneth only hosted them then yes Dragoneer actually owns the data stored on the server, much in the same way you would own the data stored on a server you rented from a hosting company, the specifics would really help iron this out, and that is also if Careneth would like to possible pursue any possible legal action.

 

Oh and the place I am citing the agreement from is here :https://www.vbulletin.com/en/license-agreement/

Edited September 25, 2015 by ToxicAudri

[Butters]

Deo, this seems like a not too well thought idea. Who would even take this case? 

[Zop]

ToxicAudri made a good point. There might be a case, but we really need more of the finer details. Consulting an attorney first might be more helpful for now.

[SirRob]

I'm not gonna sue someone over a friggin' furry forum

[nrr]

In this particular case, the Terms of Service are very clear that the data legally belongs to the license holder, so Carenath is absolutely, legally in the right to sue (at least, that's how I interpret it, I'm no legal expert). I'd love to see how IMVU, Piche and his buddies would respond if THEY found themselves threatened.

Wait.

So it has come to my attention that as a part of VBulletin's user agreement all data would belong to the license owner and it is not lawful to sell the user data. Which leaves us the users as having been legally wronged. None of us can individually fund a lawsuit, but together we could. I am completely uncomfortable with the idea of IMVU owning and using my data and with Sean Piche (Dragoneer) having sold my data for a profit against VBulletin's agreements.

Hold on.

It's my understanding that this is actually a larger issue then just with Dragoneer, as Careneth was indeed the license owner, the legal issue falls to them, however Careneth may be the one in legal trouble, not Dragoneer, to be blunt and to the point, Dragoneer never agreed to the terms and conditions as he personally never bought the license Careneth did, now under my understanding of this first and foremost the license was never sold, rented, loaned, or what have you, Careneth retained full ownership of the license in question to my understanding.

I don't follow.

However the ownership is stated to be strictly of that of vBulletin in section 2 this is where some legal trouble comes into play, none of us know the actual contract between IMVU and FA is and what is included in the terms and what ownership was transferred (even in name) if Dragoneer claimed to own the forums and the license or code for vBulletin then a case can be made as it was not his license or code to sell or offer up it was Careneth's license and vBulletin's code and Dragoneer only had use of it, not ownership even if he owned the brand behind the forums, while he likely did not sell the license he sold the data most likely, you know the thing he said he cares about most (speculation mostly)/

§2 governs intellectual property ownership of the Software (as implicitly defined in the preamble) and has no bearing at all on intellectual property ownership of the data itself.

But in this case Careneth is actually entitled to see the contract between FA and IMVU as Careneth has a case to cover their ass from legal trouble should Dragoneer have sold Careneth's license or the code Careneth got with the license, should that code have been sold it puts Careneth in legal trouble with vBulletin while Dragoneer is once again off scott free, but Careneth would have a case against Dragoneer to sue him should Careneth be sued.

Not true. Carenath is entitled only to know how his relationship to FA works. I'm seeing conflicting facts on this issue; one set says that Carenath was still a member of technical staff during the FAF split, and another set says that he wasn't. That's one thing that will need to be disputed and sorted out.

That will be one of the determining factors in this if this case does follow a litigious trajectory. If Carenath can be shown to have been a member of technical staff, the general legal assumption will be that Carenath acted in bad faith unless record can be procured that some agreement was reached (as well as some degree of restitution given) to allow the FAF to become an entity outside the FA umbrella.

On that issue, I'm seeing more conflicting facts. Dragoneer states that he made no such agreement; meanwhile, a lot of us have heard otherwise. yak was also an actor here, acting as an intermediary, and it's possible that yak may have acted in negotiorum gestorio to reach a common ground without Dragoneer's consult, fearing that inaction may have done a demonstrably valuable part of the community some harm. That's another thing that will need to be disputed.

There's another fact of this case so far that I think people are missing, and that's the fact that no software exchange has so far taken place. Any of the remedies outlined in the vBulletin license don't (yet) apply except for the one regarding domain names and domain name changes. The move to phoenix.corvidae.org may very well invalidate the license.

Oh and the place I am citing the agreement from is here :https://www.vbulletin.com/en/license-agreement/

There's actually more than one agreement there (or, rather, a license agreement for self-hosted software and a terms of service agreement for the vB cloud) to consider, and I think folks are getting a little bit confused as how things apply here.

The language of the license states that the software license cannot be resold for profit or transferred without the written permission of vBulletin, and the language of the terms of service (specifically §8 there, since it's somewhat well-hidden) states that the customer of vBulletin Cloud retains all interest in the Content and End User Content (as defined in §1) that vB hosts as part of the service.

The only problem here is that there's no customer of vBulletin Cloud to the best of my knowledge; Carenath hosted the software himself with a third-party hosting provider. The vBulletin Cloud considerations are, hence, moot, which means any interpretations of the vBulletin terms of service are also moot since they do not apply. This means that the only document in force is the vBulletin license agreement.

Reading through the vBulletin license agreement, I see nothing that pertains to data ownership, only to right to use of the software.

This means that any data ownership concerns will rest on whether or not legal justification can be made that the FAF was indeed a part of FA. Any non-hearsay evidence that can be brought forth regarding FA's plans to nuke the FAF will certainly be helpful for our case, for sure.

 

[Alexxx-Returns]

I have way more money than sense, so I'd gladly pitch in.

This seems like something that should be done. The entire community rising up against Dragoneer, it seems appropriate.

But, then again, nothing so far has knocked any sense into him, why the hell would this.

[ChaosCalix]

I have way more money than sense, so I'd gladly pitch in.

This seems like something that should be done. The entire community rising up against Dragoneer, it seems appropriate.

But, then again, nothing so far has knocked any sense into him, why the hell would this.

I think it would do SOMETHING. Nothing that has been brought against him has been this potentially damaging. Though I doubt THIS will get traction and actually go anywhere, so that doesn't matter anyway.

I'm not gonna sue someone over a friggin' furry forum

It's more about the principal of the matter, not the object it is centred around. But no one can force you to agree or participate.

[PheagleAdler]

Deo, this seems like a not too well thought idea. Who would even take this case? 

Heh, if I was a lawyer I would be running for the hills. "FA? Hell, no. I want nothing to do with that site..."

[ChaosCalix]

Heh, if I was a lawyer I would be running for the hills. "FA? Hell, no. I want nothing to do with that site..."

How much would a lawyer know about FA, that it would colour their judgement? Legitimate question.
When you consider the target is owned by IMVU, or IMVU itself, that makes it look a lot more interesting.

[PheagleAdler]

How much would a lawyer know about FA, that it would colour their judgement? Legitimate question.When you consider the target is owned by IMVU, or IMVU itself, that makes it look a lot more interesting.

In most cases, I would assume they know very little about the site, if anything at all. Hell, I didn't even know about IMVU until the sale was announced.

[ChaosCalix]

In most cases, I would assume they know very little about the site, if anything at all. Hell, I didn't even know about IMVU until the sale was announced.

Man, you must have had an adblocker on for a looong time to not hear about IMVU xP
They're surprisingly high profile.

[PheagleAdler]

Man, you must have had an adblocker on for a looong time to not hear about IMVU xPThey're surprisingly high profile.

Heh, I guess so...course I don't always pay attention to the ads even since I turned off Adblock on FA, so idk. At least I didn't miss anything 'good' lol

[ToxicAudri]

 

 

1.§2 governs intellectual property ownership of the Software (as implicitly defined in the preamble) and has no bearing at all on intellectual property ownership of the data itself.

2.Not true. Carenath is entitled only to know how his relationship to FA works. I'm seeing conflicting facts on this issue; one set says that Carenath was still a member of technical staff during the FAF split, and another set says that he wasn't. That's one thing that will need to be disputed and sorted out.

3.That will be one of the determining factors in this if this case does follow a litigious trajectory. If Carenath can be shown to have been a member of technical staff, the general legal assumption will be that Carenath acted in bad faith unless record can be procured that some agreement was reached (as well as some degree of restitution given) to allow the FAF to become an entity outside the FA umbrella.

4.On that issue, I'm seeing more conflicting facts. Dragoneer states that he made no such agreement; meanwhile, a lot of us have heard otherwise. yak was also an actor here, acting as an intermediary, and it's possible that yak may have acted in negotiorum gestorio to reach a common ground without Dragoneer's consult, fearing that inaction may have done a demonstrably valuable part of the community some harm. That's another thing that will need to be disputed.

5.There's another fact of this case so far that I think people are missing, and that's the fact that no software exchange has so far taken place. Any of the remedies outlined in the vBulletin license don't (yet) apply except for the one regarding domain names and domain name changes. The move to phoenix.corvidae.org may very well invalidate the license.

6.There's actually more than one agreement there (or, rather, a license agreement for self-hosted software and a terms of service agreement for the vB cloud) to consider, and I think folks are getting a little bit confused as how things apply here.

The language of the license states that the software license cannot be resold for profit or transferred without the written permission of vBulletin, and the language of the terms of service (specifically §8 there, since it's somewhat well-hidden) states that the customer of vBulletin Cloud retains all interest in the Content and End User Content (as defined in §1) that vB hosts as part of the service.

The only problem here is that there's no customer of vBulletin Cloud to the best of my knowledge; Carenath hosted the software himself with a third-party hosting provider. The vBulletin Cloud considerations are, hence, moot, which means any interpretations of the vBulletin terms of service are also moot since they do not apply. This means that the only document in force is the vBulletin license agreement.

Reading through the vBulletin license agreement, I see nothing that pertains to data ownership, only to right to use of the software.

This means that any data ownership concerns will rest on whether or not legal justification can be made that the FAF was indeed a part of FA. Any non-hearsay evidence that can be brought forth regarding FA's plans to nuke the FAF will certainly be helpful for our case, for sure.

 

1. Correct it does cover intellectual property ownership, the point I was making is actually not about the data, but about the sell out FA did to IMVU, as such if the forum code had included vBulletin's code it would actually fall under the intellectual property ownership of vBulletin thus would mean that the forum code belongs to vBulletin and is not something that can be sold for profit. However I did state I do not have all the facts to this case or its legal standing.

2. On this point Carenath as the sole license holder for vBulletin is in fact entitled to know if the administration of FA sold rights that were not theirs to sell this can be proven by a simple read through of the contract that I assume exists, that is to say if FA sold code to IMVU and if the code for the forum was included provided that forum code included vBulletin's code it would fall under Carenath being in legal hot water with vBulletin as Carenath was the one who by purchasing the license agreed to the terms and conditions and was associated with FA by agreeing to provide said license and host said forums for FA.

3a. Carenath was indeed a part of staff, it was necessary because Carenath was the one who owned the license and hosted the forums for FA, the length of time on staff is not relevant as Carenath hosted these forums until fairly recently, as for the whole FAF, FA drama about user data, that is another story, I suppose I should have been clear from the start, I was mainly referring to the license agreement in reference to the sell out to IMVU, the agreement makes it clear it cannot be sold nor can anything made from the code be sold, should FAF had included this code then it clearly would be breaking this agreement that Carenath agreed to at the time of purchase, meaning that Carenath is the one who is legally responsible.

3b Now addressing the rights to user data and who has the actual right to that data, well possession is 9/10ths of the law, unless there is a written contract or logs of said discussion about rights to user data then Carenath would have more claim to those rights as Carenath had possession of that data, and seeing as how Carenath was providing a service for free and a part of that staff (I don't know for how long) it would seem that Carenath has more of a legal standing in this regard, much in the same way Dragoneer has the legal rights to data from FA as he owns the site, Carenath actually owned FAF as the license holder and the host to the site, that is until Carenath under threat of legal pressure waved those rights to keep said data, however Carenath can still make the claim (with supporting evidence) that the data belongs to them and must be deleted or handed over.

4. The agreement for Carenath to host and providing the license was indeed agreed on the moment Dragoneer not only utilized that service Carenath offered, but by also linking said forums to the main site, it may have been a non verbal agreement, but an agreement none the less, however, the negations with Yak do indeed sound very much like they may have been his own undertaking as Dragoneer refused to have talks with the forum staff that were present during the time, again this is all hearsay mostly I would need specifics to say for sure one way or another, if Yak said that he spoke for Dragoneer on the matter then either Dragoneer needs to have a word with his coder or Dragoneer is trying to save face or his ass from possible legal trouble by denying he ever considered negotiations.

5. Well not invalidate, but Carenath would owe some fees  " 1.4 Domain Use. The Software may only be used on a single website domain. Any modification of the Software intended to circumvent the foregoing is prohibited and will result in revocation of the License. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the License may be transferred to another domain with vBulletin Solutions’ prior written consent and a transfer fee subject to the vBulletin Solutions then current fees. "  this section makes it very clear that at the very least Carenath would owe fees for the domain change and at most would result in the revocation of the license seeing as how I do not think Carenath obtained this written consent or sent a transfer fee on top of the current fee.

6a. Ah, you are reading the cloud portion of the agreement, that obviously applies to the cloud functionality only, I was under the impression we were strictly dealing with the download agreement as I think it was vBulletin4 that Carenath had the license for (correct me if I am wrong), again having all the facts would make this much easier, but in both cases the license holder would be entitled to the user data, and as the user agreement states at the top of the page "Below are the license agreement for the downloadable version of the vBulletin software and the service agreement for vBulletin Cloud. Each pertains to that respective product." by the sounds of it vB Cloud is a separate license, so no offense I will just disregard what you state for the vB Cloud agreement unless it is actually included or Carenath purchased the license for that.

6b.Well considering we honestly we need more specifics to say for sure, it depends largely on any written or verbal agreement that was made over user data ownership rights, or who has more legal right to the user data, if Carenath was just acting as a site host then Neer would indeed have the legal right to that data, however if vB was was the source code for the forums as it would seem to be the case (considering vB provides code for forums) then the license holder would indeed have the legal right to that data as the sole owner of the license, also if Neer sold the forum code (that included vB code) then he committed theft.

[ToxicAudri]

Okay, so I'm here to clarify things.

1. Class-action suits RARELY require anybody to pay. Those of you saying you have no money to chip in - totally unnecessary.

2. vBulletin themselves explicitly told me in e-mail that all user data is owned by the license owner. That means two things: A. All data from the forums created upon Carenath's invocation of his license belongs explicitly to Carenath. B. All data from before Carenath's license belongs either to FA/IMVU or whomever paid for the original license (Uncia?) It

3. Nrr is quite correct on several things - there were several fuck-ups on Carenath's part regarding proper license usage - however likely 'Neer committed these offenses as well, and definitely went further than he was allowed to by forcing this taking of user data, thus causing tortious interference of contract with Carenath. At *MOST* Carenath's license violations (according to the SLA) add up to roughly $300 in fines from vBull. If you want more in-depth detail, I can copy/paste my little synopsis from another site over here.

4. As it stands, there are three groups of people with any actual possible court claim - Carenath, vBulletin, and the users of FAF once Carenath's license kicked in. Anyone pre-Carenath that hasn't posted since Carenath's license took hold is simply SOL by statute of limitations and likely only has recourse going to vBull to complain.

vBull's license puts the jurisdiction here in California. That simply does not bode well for 'Neer as CA courts will take the issue of data theft much more seriously than any of the other license claims that may arise, given CA's very-protective consumer laws. That was one thing that popped up in court while I had my class-action against Electronic Arts.

If you guys are interested - look up Mark Punzalan - he's the class-action attorney that helped me stomp a mudhole in EA's wallet - http://www.punzalanlaw.com

If you need me to present the case to him, I can do so since I have more direct contacts to him, and I get free consultations from him with all the cases I've sent his way..

Well this clears things up greatly, it is in fact Carenath that owns the rights to the user data since it was his license FAF used from the moment he bought it.

 

This means only one real thing, would Carenath wish to pursue legal action? As it is clear many users would like to take legal action.

[Existential Cawing]

Although I'd gladly offer some of my own cash to help for a case if this actually became a thing, I'm pretty fairly certain no real lawyer would consider taking such a case.

Seriously, who wants to be the lawyer who got involved with furry drama?

[ToxicAudri]

Well, bear in mind I stated that there are three groups of possible litigants, here. The users could do this with or without Carenath, and vice-versa. vBull could just jump in with their own legal team and present an allied front with their lawyers + whichever lawyer we'd go with. This can go several ways.

You will, however, need to make sure that all possible parties in the affected class are given fair notification of their right to abstain from the class-action, determine class action leaders/representatives, etc. Typical due diligence requirements.

Yes this would in fact be a case where it could just be one set of litigants, however to really push the point home to Neer that he never had rights to user data for FAF Carenath would have to get involved too (that is if it's about principle.) this would be a double front legal battle that would literally leave Neer pennyless and deep into debt as a result, we must all weigh this carefully, our actions here even without Carenath would likely result in Neer losing his job, all that he owns (even collectively with his wife) and likely his freedom as well as leaving his wife homeless, (as I heard Neer is already in some money issues as it stands.) I honestly have no pity for whatever should happen as he has no one to blame but himself and his stupid finally caught up to him legally, and if people still wish to push with a legal suit I will throw my name in if I do meet requirements (joined FAF a bit before this whole ordeal.) 

 

Also as I stated before the contract between IMVU and FA needs to be disclosed and seen by someone mainly because I have a feeling that since Neer was under the impression he owned the user data from FAF he either sold said user data to IMVU or sold the site code to IMVU, if he sold the user data to IMVU then Carenath could see what is in the contract as he would have the best reason for seeing said contract to protect what is rightfully his and could see and even disclose what was included this would expose just what Neer gave away to get IMVU to agree to put up with his shit and agree to give him a job with them seemingly with no restrictions.

[ToxicAudri]

Money is money is money. Lawyers are like Ferengi.

Profit!

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

WE'VE GOT TO HAVE MONEY

[ToxicAudri]

The data issue would fall on IMVU, and also the issue of tortious interference of contract between Carenath and vBull would fall upon them as well. The breaches of license would fall on both 'Neer and Carenath in civil court unless vBull went so far as to try to push for criminal charges (or if the DA sees this as theft, in which case they would be obligated to press charges) and thus 'Neer would have way more liability than Carenath. At worst in any situation, Carenath would have (from my counting of possible violations of license) ~$300 in liabilities. 'Neer could face far, far more than that.

 

I'll post the synopisis I made last night. It's a wee bit out of date, but still gives a fairly decent general summary.

I highly doubt IMVU would take on the legal costs for what Neer did in this case, because I highly doubt they fully knew the full story behind this, Neer has been a lot of trouble thus far but one that has not cost them much, a legal battle would be very costly more so considering they would lose it, that would either require IMVU to throw Neer under the bus or take the hit in the pocket book for Neer.

[Charrio]

Thank you, just thank you
I'd really like to know how this comes along

[ToxicAudri]

Disclaimer: I am quite on Carenath's side, but he's not blame-free, either, and I am going to call things out.

vBull's licensing Section 1.4 and emails essentially state "One Domain, One License. Transferable after 90 days of use, $45 transfer fee, one transfer only, either direction (license to domain, or domain to license.)" The domain was moved to a different license - not allowed without paying an appropriate transfer fee. Dragoneer and Carenath both fucked up here, with 'Neer likely doing doubly-so in selling over to IMVU without written vBull permission and paying the fee, knowing his typical incompetence. vBull would ideally want a BSA audit done here.

vBull's licensing does not allow the transfer of data from the database, nor the selling of information from the database for profit - Carenath and 'Neer again are both at fault for this. Upon domain/license change, the forums should have been separated out, and users that would've liked their posts from the old forums to be on the new forums should have been allowed to copy/paste, from the get-go. Since the change was not done via an officially-sanctioned vBull upgrade path, this workaround is the only allowable course of action. I'm pretty sure this did not happen.

Now, sections 1.1 and 1.8 of vBulletin's software license agreement (along with direct vBulletin e-mails sent to me) make it very clear that the data/database is owned by the LICENSE OWNER (with 1.8 covering data/database as derivative works and related materials,) and is not to be transferred without sanctioned approval of vBull. For IMVU to take more data than they were legally allowed (assuming 'Neer's v3 claim holds any water) is likely a tortious interference of contract on Carenath and vBull's end. An audit would need to be performed here as well.

I really want to point out "1.3 Illegal Activity. You may not use the Software to engage in or allow others to engage in any illegal activity where the Software is accessed and/or used. You may not use the Software to engage in any activity that will violate the rights of third parties, including, without limitation, through the use, public display, public performance, reproduction, distribution, or modification of communications or materials that infringe copyrights, trademarks, publicity rights, privacy rights, other proprietary rights, or rights against defamation of third parties."

*CoughFirePyro/Furpimpersonationcoughburp*

Let us note section 12 - Governing Law. "The License and this Agreement are governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of California, United States of America. You hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue in the state and federal courts of the County of Los Angeles, California and the Central District of California, respectively."

I know what just happened very likely won't fly in a California court. vBull and IMVU are both HQd here, this court will most certainly have jurisdiction and will hold IMVU/FA/'Neer liable for the breach and interference of vBull's contract with Carenath. California has some STRICT data protection laws and will most likely uphold most or all of vBull's ToS which is providing those protections.

But, on the same hand, the court would also likely find against Carenath for those fuck-ups I mentioned, as well. Thankfully, they would only likely make Carenath pay the contractual damages - fee is only $100 per fuckup, per the ToS, plus licensing requirements. IMVU/FA would have bigger problems to face re: that user data gathered against the vBull/Carenath contract. They can claim huge damages in tortious interference of contract between themselves and Carenath, and multiple breaches of the contract are quite apparent. User class-action lawsuit for theft of their data, loss of income/commission work, etc. brings in a whole new ball game.

And I'd be more than willing to bet that IMVU would (given their propensity to plaster porn ads all over the place) put the same ads on the forums, yet violating another T&C in the ToS - no malware distribution through that platform.

This whole cockup makes me smile yet shed a tear at the same time, as the blame runs rather square on both sides, with a bit more falling towards IMVU/FA/Neer being the primary fault.

Agreed of the larger names in this possible suit Carenath is not without fault, but better to get your debt squared away by making someone else foot the bill that is largely the reason for your debt, largely it was Neer that did as he wished, Carenath in hindsight should have been more hands on and made sure Neer was acting within the terms Carenath agreed to, or else cover the fees incurred, but again better to square your dept when you have someone to foot the bill for you, because you really don't want that shit being found out and landing you in a claims court.

[Calemeyr]

I'd donate to a lawsuit. Whatever pisses IMVU off and fires Neer.

Can we IP ban Chase, Sciggles, and Neer from these forums? They probably don't even have accounts, but I wouldn't put past them to cause ruckus anonymously.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calemeyr

[AshleyAshes]

All of you are ignoring one massive, critical thing:

Caranath completely consented to having FA's copyright claim on the bottom of every single of FAF from the beginning.  This create a rather serious legal complication and makes it not nearly as clear cut as some of you see it.

[Calemeyr]

All of you are ignoring one massive, critical thing:

Caranath completely consented to having FA's copyright claim on the bottom of every single of FAF from the beginning.  This create a rather serious legal complication and makes it not nearly as clear cut as some of you see it.

Yep, that makes things tricky.

[Amalgamous]

If someone finds an attorney with experience who says the lawsuit could hold, I will totally donate everything I can spare.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Amalgamous

[Caretaker]

Agreed of the larger names in this possible suit Carenath is not without fault, but better to get your debt squared away by making someone else foot the bill that is largely the reason for your debt, largely it was Neer that did as he wished, Carenath in hindsight should have been more hands on and made sure Neer was acting within the terms Carenath agreed to, or else cover the fees incurred, but again better to square your dept when you have someone to foot the bill for you, because you really don't want that shit being found out and landing you in a claims court.

I have read the vBulletin software licence agreement, it only applies to the vBulletin software itself, the database is user-generated content. The licence prohibits sharing/distributing the software, if I wanted to give the licence to another person to use instead I would have to pay vBulletin a fee to transfer ownership from me to them and destroy all copies I have in my possession.

I will clarify with them, regarding the licencing terms but I believe I have acted in good faith here and at this point in time all copies that are in my possession were deleted, I also only provided FA with users uploaded files (avatars etc).

Update: vBulletin confirmed this, it's good.

Caranath completely consented to having FA's copyright claim on the bottom of every single of FAF from the beginning.  This create a rather serious legal complication and makes it not nearly as clear cut as some of you see it.

I never claimed at any point, to have been the owner of FAF data, I stated more than once that ownership of the data would have to be resolved to successfully complete a split and this was being negotiated upon before everything exploded.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Carenath
Update