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Friends who are bad at what they love


MissFleece
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So I have a friend who wants to be a writer. And I agree with the sentiment that you get better the more you practice...but she had been writing for more than the seven years I've known her and its all so dry and boring. She can't stick to one plotline, and can't flesh out characters very well. Any constructive criticism you give her leaves her upset.

Right now she's forcing me to read a 50+page undertale/gravity falls comic... 

It's so slow...and so out of character I want to scream...but I want to encourage her so she gets better. 

Everyone secretly agrees, we all just suffer through it because it makes her so happy...

But god, I wish she made SOME progress...

/vent

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Does your friend actually plan the characters/chapter settings/events/etc?  It's quite enjoyable writing on the fly but it's incredibly inefficient.

I think the main reason she's made no progress over the seven years is because no one's had the honesty to be critical about it.

Edited by Zytan
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1 minute ago, Zytan said:

Does your friend actually plan the characters/chapter settings/events/etc?  It's quite enjoyable writing on the fly but it's incredibly inefficient.

She just kind of has ideas and...goes with it. But she did try to write a book with the ending planned out... But she wanted the plot fleshed out before the characters when we read it. It was so hard to read like that. Like an airplane manual.

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6 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

She just kind of has ideas and...goes with it. But she did try to write a book with the ending planned out... But she wanted the plot fleshed out before the characters when we read it. It was so hard to read like that. Like an airplane manual.

J K Rowling had a similar issue, she had the beginning and end from the start and get incredibly frustrated trying to get the beginning to the end (probably why the books got progressively larger towards the middle and small again towards the end now that I think about it).

I'd go with telling your friend to flesh out an intro, the wind up of events, the climax and then the conclusion.  Having very colourful personality traits for the characters makes distinguishing them easier and gives a point of reference when empathising with what they'd do/say.  Subtle character differences are hard to portray without practice.

In the past I've found planning the characters and setting first leads to the plot growing through thinking about what they'd do left to their own devices.

Edited by Zytan
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Just now, Zytan said:

J K Rowling had a similar issue, she had the beginning and end from the start and get incredibly frustrated trying to get the beginning to the end.

I'd go with telling your friend to flesh out an intro, the wind up of events, the climax and then the conclusion.  Having very colourful personality traits for the characters makes distinguishing them easier and gives a point of reference when empathising with what they'd do/say.  Subtle character differences are hard to portray without practice.

In the past I've found planning the characters and setting first leads to the plot growing through thinking about what they'd do left to their own devices.

The thing is, she KNOWS this, she's an english major. 

She tells me that method doesn't work for her. 

(also, it really doesn't help getting through her stories when she spells like this)

 

becki's spelling.png

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I feel like kind of an arrogant ass when I feel this way towards friends who are artists.

On one hand, criticism is an absolutely invaluable thing, and I'd readily offer it if I could.
But there are a lot of instances where I'm just like "...Bro, I don't even know where to start with you."

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1 minute ago, Zytan said:

I'm going to go on a whim here and suggest the reason it 'doesn't work for her' is because she has no belief in it due to the stark few attempts of it not leading to immediate success, yes?

Probably?

Or that it's hard.

she kind of thinks the sun shines out her ass with her writing.

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15 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

The thing is, she KNOWS this, she's an english major. 

She tells me that method doesn't work for her. 

(also, it really doesn't help getting through her stories when she spells like this)

 

becki's spelling.png

Well I'm no writer, but that paragraph sounds pretty... simplistic. And I'm not talking about the grammar here, just the feeling of the text. Or maybe it's just my writer side that's talking LOL. It's one of the very few things I liked doing at school, writing texts. And I always had a certain tendency toward rather fancy wording LOL.

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23 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

Probably?

Or that it's hard.

she kind of thinks the sun shines out her ass with her writing.

It is fairly difficult at first, coming up with more traits for characters as the story progresses is quite a common problem as it leaves the intro, the very part that presents the characters, quite bland.

Deeper thinking into each characters' nuances prior to writing only comes with trial and error from past attempts.

Regarding the over-confidence, I think she needs to be made aware that that's definitely not true.  What she imagines as she writes may be, but what's presented isn't.  Until that's made clear she's not going to progress.

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29 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

The thing is, she KNOWS this, she's an english major. 

She tells me that method doesn't work for her. 

(also, it really doesn't help getting through her stories when she spells like this)

 

becki's spelling.png

Oh god...

I'm sorry, you said this person's been writing for seven years?  Like, is that how long they've been made to write for school, or have they been writing recreationally for that long?  How old are they?

Short and skinny of it: if they're a day over 15, I'd tell them to find another calling.

In any case, I'm reading this, and it doesn't feel like a story at all.  It feels like someone hastily describing a course of events they plan to put into a story, and doing a poor job of even that.  That it's an Undertale/Gravity Falls crossover fiction does it no favors whatsoever; you can't make money off of that.  I doubt that even the best writer would be taken seriously with such material.

Also 'you' used in fiction.... GRRAAAAAAAAAAGHG!  Do they think they're GM'ing something?

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6 minutes ago, AyGee said:

Short and skinny of it: if they're a day over 15, I'd tell them to find another calling.

 

she's 22. I've known her since she was 16 and I was 14.

oh, and also, that was a nightvale fanfic she wanted me to help write. So "your OC" is where she expected me to come in.

5 minutes ago, Brass said:

Ever thought of being honest and constructive with your friends, you nightmare fueled goat monster? 

I told her her book was a bit dry, and maybe focusing on developing the characters a bit more would help that, and she threw her book in a fire.

 

Edited by MissFleece
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4 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

I told her her book was a bit dry, and maybe focusing on developing the characters a bit more would help that, and she threw her book in a fire.

To be honest that's where it belongs. Tell her if she can't take small criticisms you don't want to read her stuff. It isn't your cup of tea and friends don't force shit on their friends. 

Edited by Brass
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Normally, the best way to help your friend is to tell them directly that they need to learn it properly or they will not succeed.

Tell them to take creative writing and English classes. If you really want them to do well in it, help them find the classes, give them a ride if they need it, and help to make sure they complete their assignments. Get them thesauruses, dictionaries, and grammar handbooks, too - holidays are coming. They need to understand written English well or the best story will falter under a shabby framework. Also, if you truly want to help them, be their editor. Consistently tell them when their writing sucks - without telling them "it sucks," that is - and attempt to correct their writing when you are confident in your ability.

It seems that your friend's problem is less of a problem in not being able to learn than it is a problem in being willing to learn properly and consistently. Your friend may not even know how to do that, and if they don't want to do that or are not capable, they may not be cut out for it.

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1 minute ago, Brass said:

To be honest that's where it belongs. Tell her if she can't take small criticisms you don't want to read her stuff. It isn't you cup of tea and friends don't force shit on their friends. 

I felt super bad because she had been working on it for a month and was super excited about it.

but it started off as star wars fanfiction that she rewrote to be an original sci-fi kind of book.

I went through a phase in high school when I wanted to be a book editor, so she made me beta all her stories to fix mistakes.

I stopped wanting to be an editor within a couple months, lol. But that's why she continues to have me read her things, I have no one but myself to blame. And she comes up with a lot of good ideas, if they don't start off as fanfiction. Once they're worked out, her stories that are original are really creative and nice to read! But...it takes a good long while to get them there.

1 minute ago, MalletFace said:

Normally, the best way to help your friend is to tell them directly that they need to learn it properly or they will not succeed.

Tell them to take creative writing and English classes. If you really want them to do well in it, help them find the classes, give them a ride if they need it, and help to make sure they complete their assignments. Get them thesauruses, dictionaries, and grammar handbooks, too - holidays are coming. They need to understand written English well or the best story will falter under a shabby framework. Also, if you truly want to help them, be their editor. Consistently tell them when their writing sucks - without telling them "it sucks," that is - and attempt to correct their writing when you are confident in your ability.

It seems that your friend's problem is less of a problem in not being able to learn than it is a problem in being willing to learn properly and consistently. Your friend may not even know how to do that, and if they don't want to do that or are not capable, they may not be cut out for it.

Ohhh trust me, I've tried to help her get better continually. But she hasn't shown ANY progress, in fact, her writing has gotten more drab as time went on. I don't know if it's because she's trying to be more "mature" with her writing, or what, but I've learned I can't help her without hurting her feelings.

She doesn't think grammar and spelling is important, if the story is good. But those are things that make a story good!

Sorry, I've had this bottled up for seven years :/ she's a great friend, kind and compassionate, but sometimes she can be a bit hard headed. 

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9 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

She doesn't think grammar and spelling is important, if the story is good. 

What? Reading cohesion is very important to a story. Terrible grammar and spelling as just as distracting as bad actors and constant boom mike drops in a movie. That passage you quoted was almost physically painful to read, and despite reading it three times I still have no clue what is actually going on.

Fudge it, I'm doing this. I don't know the names.

Quote

Blood: "Hrm, he still hit me. I'm not going to eat him. But you can, if you'd like."

Boy: "Maybe later. Come on down."

Carlose climbs down and asks who they are, and we get introduced. He asks what happened for the hours he lost, and what time it is. They both stare at him with vague, empty eyes. "It is three o'clock, it is always three o'clock", they chant. They are confused when he asks about what time the library closes and eventually he figures out that they don't call this the library - they call it Knowone's house. He asks where the library is and they agree to take him there.

Knowone kicks a squawking monster out of the way and stomps a few times. A glowing circle opens and sucks then down - like the sand in an hourglass - down into the depths of the earth. Down into the depths of despair and rotting death, where your OC is helping to decorate for a picnic. All the monsters that usually roam the "real" library are having a potluck; Mat and Knowone agree to take Carlose to the "real" library afterwards. He almost gets eaten, but he convinces them that scientists don't taste good, mostly because they have all tried eating a textbook at some point. Except for The ShufflerMass; but he is a stuck up prude, always putting pamplets about his bogus religion under your window wipers, and stuck through your screen door like unwanted cabbage stuck between your teeth.

The monthly potluck is being held in the "real" library because the monsters can't use the docs anymore, since they no longer exist. We find a pile of socks and snail shells, suddenly Matthew McConaughey appears and yells at us, however it turns out it is just Hunter. I yell at him to stop spoiling his appetite before the picnic. Anyway, that's over, and he finally gets taken to the real library. 

He wakes up in the room he was reading in, covered in red slime.

Ok, I still don't get it.

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ouuuuuch. I feel so sorry for her. Seven years? @-@ I think something is missing in her head for her not to be conscious of her flaws...

I feel that way with a friend of mine. Great kid, but he's got some issues I dont have the heart to bring up. We started RPing in the beginning for fun, and I joined in because why not...we did script style and since for me script just seemed really goofy it started unserious and crazy until I got the hang of it as time went on. I decided as a gift to rewrite the first part in novel form. Now theyre convinced our story is brilliant and must be turned into a animation someday...

Oh gosh...our writing is cliche. Two self inserts. Both orphans. An evil psychotic brother turned good. Everyone gets a love interest, good guys are cool and always win. The story was just for fun and I highly doubt,even if I tried to work the plot, it'd be any good at all.

They ask me to RP a lot and I dont have anywhere for the story to go. In fact, they want our mains to have a child now xP

 

RP is just a fun group activity we started out with but Im pretty busy with life and I dont have the heart to tell them Im no longer motivated or ready to continue this as much.

 

but y'know, friends are friends. Sometimes you deal with them and ride along with their quirks.

Edited by WolfNightV4X1
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If she thinks she's amazing at writing then she isn't a writer. We're all insecure little fucks who think we suck but keep at it anyways because there's nothing else to do but masturbate.

(sorry)

If she isn't open to critique, then just say you don't want to read her stuff anymore. Let her keep writing her garbage--and that's what that blurb was--and maybe she'll be happy to have that as an outlet while you don't have to worry about it. Life's too short.

Otherwise, tell her to read more. She clearly doesn't if that's what she thinks is passable. Artists of any medium should be engrossed in that medium. If you want to write, you need to read. Lots. Doesn't matter what. If she has problems with characters, have her pick up a Stephen King novel.  think he does characters very well, plus I love his style. It means reading critically and not just for pleasure, but that can be a fine line.

Also, tell her to proofread her own shit at least once before sending it your way. To give up something so grammatically wrong and filled with typos is nothing short of rude as fuck.

Reminds me of this old comedy called Hamlet 2 where the main character wants to be in theater but is terrible at it, so he winds up teaching it in Tuscon AZ where dreams go to die. You could tell her to move to Tuscon...

 

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To be any kind of writer you need to be open to criticism or you'll never be able to improve, I'd love for some criticism on my writings but its like when I ask my friends they just abstain from saying anything negative to me even though I've told its fine, the only flaw one of them tells me is my overuse of comma's and my general spelling mistakes, though I'll hold my hands up now that I'm generally not the best proofreader of my own writing, I'm fine proofreading other people's work but not my own.

I feel quite bad for your friend Fleece but at the same time if she's never gonna be open to criticism then its going to be a battle up a steep hill for anyone who genuinely tries to help her improve.

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4 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

she um...she lives in Tuscon.

Seriously.

Someone call Vael here, we need an on-point .gif stat!

Okay, so something more productive: does she do any kind of flash fiction or general writing prompts? I don't recommend short stories or novels for practice or beginners, and despite her spending a lot of time at writing, she still writes like a beginner. That means going to the basics.

Can she write something interesting or compelling in five hundred words or less? Can she write something interesting or compelling in the span of a conversation?

It's good practice regardless and can be kinda fun, especially if you have a writing blog and are normally too lazy to do anything important.

28 minutes ago, WolfNightV4X1 said:

Not unless you're this guy

566df57fa00cb_C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppD

I have never read an Oscar Wilde book because I am a shitty English major.

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1 minute ago, Conker said:

Someone call Vael here, we need an on-point .gif stat!

Okay, so something more productive: does she do any kind of flash fiction or general writing prompts? I don't recommend short stories or novels for practice or beginners, and despite her spending a lot of time at writing, she still writes like a beginner. That means going to the basics.

Can she write something interesting or compelling in five hundred words or less? Can she write something interesting or compelling in the span of a conversation?

It's good practice regardless and can be kinda fun, especially if you have a writing blog and are normally too lazy to do anything important.

I have never read an Oscar Wilde book because I am a shitty English major.

She doesn't do "short" or any kind of prompts. I've tried to get her to write back and forth with me (continual story kind of thing, I used to write a lot) but she was always the one that stopped responding with no warning.

I can start trying again though, I stopped writing but I can still send her prompts and stuff.

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2 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

She doesn't do "short" or any kind of prompts. I've tried to get her to write back and forth with me (continual story kind of thing, I used to write a lot) but she was always the one that stopped responding with no warning.

I can start trying again though, I stopped writing but I can still send her prompts and stuff.

This is assuming you still want to work with her and see her improve. My first order of, "Just ignore it and tell her you don't want to read her shit anymore" still stands :P

It sucks though. My friends are thankfully all pretty good at the artistic endeavors they pursue. One is a musician, and I remember the first time I heard him sing I kinda cringed. Told him straight up he really needed to work on that. Motherfucker took that to heart and is now pretty alright at it. He does metal music so it's not like he needs to be amazing; he makes it work.

LIke others have said, if she ain't open to criticism she isn't going to improve at all. Based on how she's reacted to it in the past, she sounds like a child. Some people just can't be helped.

Edited by Conker
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Hah, yeah I understand this. One of my best friends is pretty bad at video games in general, I try really hard not to end up playing competitive games against him, or play through the same section of something too soon after he just made it through because he gets kinda sad at the comparison.

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15 minutes ago, Luca said:

Hah, yeah I understand this. One of my best friends is pretty bad at video games in general, I try really hard not to end up playing competitive games against him, or play through the same section of something too soon after he just made it through because he gets kinda sad at the comparison.

Play a co-op game where you get to be a dedicated healer, only way around it :S

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Man, Vae totally hit the nail on the head when it comes to artist friends not being so great. I get asked a lot by folks who specificaly ask what I learned in school about what they are asking for critique for, and its hard to not just say 'stop drawing furries and get basic human shapes down before you do that.'

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Is it bad that this makes me feel better about myself as a writer?

Anyways, you should be honest with her. Blunt even about her work, as its important. If you aren't honest with her, and/or muddle down your criticism, its not going to help her. Alternatively, if you've been doing this for a while for her, you should just tell her that you aren't interested in reading her writing. Be honest. It may make her upset, but as long as you aren't rude about it I'm sure she'd be fine.

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You have my sympathy, Miss Fleece.

I genuinely enjoy providing constructive criticism to artists who appear to have talent, drive, and the willingness to evolve and grow.

Giving feedback to someone whose enthusiasm, ego, or confidence grossly outweighs their actual ability or potential is like pulling teeth, on the other hand.

Oh, and fanfiction is the absolute worst. (And note that I've happily proofread people's erotic stories in the past.)

My tendency would be to subtly try to introduce the person to other hobbies or interests, or clue them in to the other things they were good at. Failing that, I'd just sigh and leave them to circle the drain of mediocrity.

If they were a very close friend or loved one, I might confess that I wasn't into their art, but only if I felt that confession would do more good than harm in the long run.

Edited by Troj
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This reminds me of a friend I had who wanted to be a chef, and boasted about how good a cook he was and would get me to cook things with him since I like to cook aswell.

but he couldn't even hold knives in the proper way and every time I tried to teach him something, like the easy way to cut an onion or peel garlic, he would get extremely defensive and just say stuff like " Yeah I know god, I like it my way better."  It was some infuriating shit.

also, that, erm story *pukes* was horrid, how can some one type like that? HOW DO YOU EVEN MAKE SOME OF THOSE SPELLING ERRORS?!?!?

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This is part of a story I helped edit in high school:

"

He hated this place. It always made him dizzy looking over the side. "North Bridge" as it was called was not squarely north of Grace's City center nor did it have proper bridge. It did have the second best guarded entrance and a makeshift pile of steel beams sitting on pistons that could be lowered, across the hundred mile plunge. Into nothingness that waited to-...

He pulled himself away from the railing. The gash that North Bridge crossed wasn't more than two hundred feet, still made him itchy. He scratched under his breather. He needed to change the filter soon, ash was starting to leak through. If that Dong-Ma showed, he could come along and cut the profit squarish. If not, well, he might be a bit short handed. Didn't mean he wasn't going. Ten-Thow was a lot of new filters."
 
This is the first part of the first chapter.
She never explains any of the confusing bits or fleshes out this character, the entire story (that she abandoned, after making me edit it) was four chapters of him wandering down this stairwell. Nothing happened. He just took in the sights, thought to himself about his kid, and wandered aimlessly down this fucking staircase for four chapters.
 
In high school she wrote this BEAUTIFUL story about bird people, and I honestly wanted to know more about the world she made, where there was a caste system based on how many wings you had and there were like, angels and demons feuding, and it was basically gay bird people Romeo and Juliet but more fun. But she abandoned it.
But nah, she's spent about five years trying to write the same star wars fanfic over and over and it's awful.
 
26 minutes ago, Conker said:

How she can be a functioning English major and make those kinds of errors is beyond me. The fuck kind of grades is she getting in school?

She's always been like that. She spells by the sound of the word rather than actually learning how to spell the word. She's actually gotten better since high school! I wish I had some of the stories she wrote then... She can spell "what" now, so that's an improvement.

21 minutes ago, Troj said:

My tendency would be to subtly try to introduce the person to other hobbies or interests, or clue them in to the other things they were good at. Failing that, I'd just sigh and leave them to circle the drain of mediocrity.

If they were a very close friend or loved one, I might confess that I wasn't into their art, but only if I felt that confession would do more good than harm in the long run.

Might try that. She's really getting into LARPing and maybe making stuff to go with it can be a new hobby.

14 minutes ago, Crunchy said:

This reminds me of a friend I had who wanted to be a chef, and boasted about how good a cook he was and would get me to cook things with him since I like to cook aswell.

but he couldn't even hold knives in the proper way and every time I tried to teach him something, like the easy way to cut an onion or peel garlic, he would get extremely defensive and just say stuff like " Yeah I know god, I like it my way better."  It was some infuriating shit.

That makes me mad just reading it. How the hell did you deal with that, lol.

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5 minutes ago, MissFleece said:

She's always been like that. She spells by the sound of the word rather than actually learning how to spell the word. She's actually gotten better since high school! I wish I had some of the stories she wrote then... She can spell "what" now, so that's an improvement.

 

But like, college professors aren't gonna put up with that shit. I hope she at least uses her spellcheck before finishing her papers. Fuck if I had done shit like that >.< Can't even imagine how some of my old teachers would have reacted. Probably a, "Cut the fucking shit and do it right" the first time :P but the second? Oh god!

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Miss Fleece, I find myself wondering why she can't finish her stories. If we could figure out why she keeps dropping stories halfway through, that would solve one of her main problems.

Another thought: I typically try to put a positive spin on feedback, so that it's not demoralizing. So, if she wrote a genuinely interesting story about bird people, I would say, "I really wanted to find out what happened in your bird people story, and was disappointed when you stopped working on it." When possible, I urge people to keep doing what's working, and then slide in a few gentle-but-concrete tidbits on what's not working.

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32 minutes ago, Troj said:

Miss Fleece, I find myself wondering why she can't finish her stories. If we could figure out why she keeps dropping stories halfway through, that would solve one of her main problems.

Another thought: I typically try to put a positive spin on feedback, so that it's not demoralizing. So, if she wrote a genuinely interesting story about bird people, I would say, "I really wanted to find out what happened in your bird people story, and was disappointed when you stopped working on it." When possible, I urge people to keep doing what's working, and then slide in a few gentle-but-concrete tidbits on what's not working.

I did, but she said she tossed it out and can't remember the story.

Thanks for the advice :D

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In college, I had a friend who was studying art.

 

He was absolutely terrible. I mean, his drawing was completely unintelligible. Grand and interesting concepts behind them, but, no ability to draw what so ever, He'd basically spend two hours making a scribble that took up an eighth of the page.

I felt really bad for the guy, he was making himself miserable in his efforts, he felt awful that he couldn't crack it, after two years of live drawing and drawing classes, he didn't improve one bit.

 

Now, I'm not a great artist, I think I can make a reasonable attempt, and whilst I would certainly say I was one of the weaker drawers in the class, I could at least offer support, tell him he'll get better, to keep trying. But, in the end, he just couldn't do it.

It was awful to watch and despite my efforts to help, it didn't seem like much could really be done.

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I'd say that you don't just get better from doing more of something. You get better by studying the subject and learning from others. That's why criticism is paramount, and not being able to take it and learn from it will leave you mediocre. Her writing looks more like a movie script than an actual story. Maybe she could benefit from reading some books on how to write? I would even suggest that she read books in general and try to emulate their style, but being an English major, I would assume she has to read books already (though honestly it doesn't show). One tip I got when I was first learning how to write is to imagine that you are painting a painting with words, and draw as much scenery as possible in your stories. Every word, sentence, and phrase is like another brush stroke completing the scene. This will get the audience more emerced into the situation the characters are in. Then in her case she really needs to learn how to do dialogue.

Edited by Rassah
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Another idea:

Who does she admire? Is there any writer she aspires to be like?

Has that person written any guides to writing, or written anything that would inspire her to focus more tightly on her craft?

Sometimes, when people won't take advice from someone they know, they'll take advice from a book or guide, especially one written by a famous or admired author.

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