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Pit Bull Bans


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Pit Bull Bans  

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  1. 1. Should Pit Bulls be banned?

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      29


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The comparison is a little insensitive but I get your point

 

the reason why "pit bulls" are banned is because nobody knows what an actual Pit Bull is (American pit bull terrier), so you've got these people running around calling every other dog a Pit Bull, and due to the stigma associated with the bully breeds, these dogs usually end up biting people for one reason or another

im on my phone so I'll have to explain this in more detail later

it basically comes down to misrepresentation, misidentification, and a lack of knowledge about the difference between dog aggression and human aggression

yiu can look at the UK for an example of this, in their banning of the APBT but not the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

 

no, dog breeds shiuld not be banned, it's just unfortunate because the people who claim to love "pit bulls" the most are oftentimes the ones who believe that "pit bull" is a generalizing blanket term used for many breeds

this generalization is what bans dogs

 

will explain later

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BAN ALL DOGS

But no, seriously. Pits are adorable and if I was going to get a dog, it would be a pit. I love how pretty huskies are, but I don't think I'd be able to handle one and I think the thick fur would bug me cuz smells.

Some edumications - not sure about bias (their linked data source is super old), but something called the Canine Journal seems like it's more on the side of dogs than humans, so saying pits are top of the list for bites still doesn't seem nearly as biased. Any other Google search yielded the same, pits are still top of the list.

It would benefit society to learn how not to act around creatures that can potentially kill you. However, expecting children to behave perfectly around creatures that can kill them is not reasonable because kids are immature by nature, so I feel that's where the bans have some ground. In that case though, my first comment "ban all dogs" actually has ground because if one dog can flip and kill a person, so can another, so if you're going to ban certain breeds because of that potential then you need to look at banning all of them.

Edited by Kinare
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Okay I'm at my computer now.

The issue with dog breed bans first and foremost is that they don't work and never will. Breed bans are put into place because the dogs are biting/attacking people, and to a lesser extent, other dogs.
The ban on "Pit Bulls" (read: bully breeds) is due almost entirely to irresponsible dog owners who are negligent in both their dog ownership and their child raising, and to dog-fighters.
Dog-fighters will never stop fighting dogs, and dog-fighting continues to go on every single day, in every state, in every country. There is absolutely no way to stop dog-fighting.

If you look at the laws in areas where "Pit Bulls" are banned, you can see why I have issues with their wording and why I continuously put the words in quotations. In general, BSL states the following:
No American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, mixes of these breeds, or any dog that is deemed to resemble (with good certainty, by a veterinarian) any of these breeds or mixes.
Certain areas will ban more breeds or remove some breeds from this list (for example, the Tosa Inu, Bully Kutta, Gull Terr, and the removal of the SBT in the UK), but it's generally the same.

The issue I have with this law is that veterinarians are not dog breed geniuses; they're not adequately trained in identifying dog breeds, and this shows by the fact that they're being entrusted to identify what these dogs look like -- something that they get completely wrong the majority of the time.

The APBT and AST both originate from the SBT, with the SBT being the oldest of the three breeds, and being a result of crossings between bulldogs and terriers ("bull and terriers" is what they were originally called). These are all different breeds, there is absolutely no debate about this, but so-called "Pit Bull" supporters will claim that they're all "Pit Bulls" and that you can't tell the difference.

The SBT is a dog-aggressive breed currently used for dog-fighting across the world (most commonly in the UK).
The AST is a show dog breed, not as dog-aggressive as it's cousins. This is a pet dog breed for the most part.
The APBT (the one and only breed that can correctly be called a Pit Bull, because it's right in the fucking name) is a dog-aggressive, fighting dog breed. It's becoming increasingly popular for people to own these dogs for sporting and show purposes (ADBA), but the entire shows are based up around breeding and athleticism, so these shows are not to be compared to the ones that the AST are entered in (AKC, UKC).

Despite all of this information, people still insist that "Pit Bull" is a blanket term, and that you "can't identify a real Pit Bull", this is absolute horseshit.

One of these dogs is a Pit Bull, the rest are a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, an American Staffordshire Terrier, and a bully breed mix.

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/ce292052067b7d1711c5009cd63eade8e08a4412/c=258-0-1790-1152&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/Phoenix/None/2014/10/30/635503074377640008-mickey.jpeg

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff103/bullandterrier/20081214/IMG_8001.jpg

http://www.pitbull-chat.com/gallery/files/1/4/9/5/91106mat.jpg

http://screenshu.com/static/uploads/temporary/yb/vt/a2/p9d32j.jpg

The correct answers are:
1 - Bully breed mix
2 - Staffordshire Bull Terrier
3 - American Pit Bull Terrier ("Pit Bull")
4 - American Staffordshire Terrier

Now, it seems clear enough to me which is which, but people who enact these laws (and the people who don't know the difference between these breeds and insist on generalizing terms) can't tell the difference. The first dog picture on this list is a bully breed mix who was falsely labeled a "Pit Bull". If dog owners had insisted on calling their dogs what they were (mutts) instead of calling them Pit Bulls, the lives of countless dogs could have been spared the fate they have once they get this label.

That white dog, Mickey, mauled a child's face for getting too close to a toy he was playing with. There is absolutely no question about it, the parents of that child should have taught their kid not to fuck around with a dog who has a toy. Unfortunately, "Pit Bulls" seem to have this right taken away from them, and the owners of these dogs insist on pushing their dogs to the limits in making them uncomfortable. They seem to like testing their dogs to prove a point, "look, my baby is crawling all over my dog and he isn't ripping his face off -- Pit Bulls are good after all!". It's nonsense, and it gets children mauled every single day across the world.
Mickey was removed from his home, neutered, had all his teeth ripped out, and now sits in a jail cell for the rest of his life, all because someone insisted that he was a dog breed that he wasn't.

I've been watching these attacks by "Pit Bulls" for a long time, and I've never seen one in the news that was a purebred APBT, they've all been bully breed mutts.
I can count the number of times purebred Pit Bulls have bit people, on one hand.

Last but not least (I can tell I'm rambling now), most people mistake dog-aggression for human-aggression, and this also gets dogs killed. Dog-aggression is natural in the bully breeds and cannot be confused for human-aggression. This is the reason why two APBT will willingly fight one another but won't attack a child for no reason.
The so-called supporters of this breed don't understand the difference between the two and because their child has never been attacked by their bully breed mutt, that means any APBT who attacks another dog has obviously been raised incorrectly -- does this make sense to anybody else?
Dog-aggression in the APBT is due to genetics, and while sometimes human-aggression in breeds can be genetic (some say the Fila Brasilero is HA), it's almost always due to maltreatment or lack of socialization. To compare the behaviour of a DA dog to that of a HA dog and use it as a basis for saying "it's all how you raise them" is so ignorant that to this day, I can't wrap my mind around it.

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The saddest part of Breed Specific Legislation is that because the guidelines for identifying a "pitbull" are often so broad and loosey-goosey (as Gamedog noted), thousands of wonderful dogs have been euthanized in regions with these laws--including dogs that weren't even pitbulls!

I highly recommend the documentary, "Beyond the Myth."

My attitude is, there are no bad dogs, just bad owners.

As I recall reading, 86.4% of pitbulls (meaning, in this case, the American Staffordshire and American Pitbull Terrier) tested by the American Temperament Test Society passed, placing them above 121 breeds that were also tested.

Personally, I've had much more trouble with toy dogs (like Chihuahuas and Yorkies) than I have pitbulls. Based on my experiences, I'm also more nervous around Chow-Chows, German Shepherds, and wolf hybrids than I am around pitbulls, by a country mile.

Edited by Troj
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3 hours ago, Kinare said:

I love how pretty huskies are, but I don't think I'd be able to handle one and I think the thick fur would bug me cuz smells.

Actually, huskies are a pretty clean breed. I own a 4 year old and I've never had to bathe her.

In response to the topic: No. People who want any particular breed banned likely know very little about dogs.

Edited by Newt
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@Gamedog your attitude towards dog fighting, that it's impossible to stop all of it and therefore attempts to reduce dog fighting are futile, is a non-sequitur. 

 

Regards the topic in general, I don't know enough about pit bulls. I think some breeds of dog should not be produced, merely because the effects of inbreeding have predisposed them to unhealthy lives of suffering. 

About half of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels develop a hereditary disease called Syringomyelia, which means the back of their skull is too small to accommodate the brain and spinal cord, causing severe pain, nerve damage and potential paralysis. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Saxon said:

@Gamedog your attitude towards dog fighting, that it's impossible to stop all of it and therefore attempts to reduce dog fighting are futile, is a non-sequitur.

 

I never said that attempts to stop dog-fighting are futile, I said that breed bans don't stop dog-fighting (which is one of the reasons they're even put in place).

 

49 minutes ago, PastryOfApathy said:

It'd be like the puppy bowl, but more violent. It's perfect!

http://www.theonion.com/article/nitro-expected-to-win-westminster-dog-fight-35239

Edited by Gamedog
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3 minutes ago, Gamedog said:

I never said that attempts to stop dog-fighting are futile, I said that breed bans don't stop dog-fighting (which is one of the reasons they're even put in place).

 

http://www.theonion.com/article/nitro-expected-to-win-westminster-dog-fight-35239

I thought you were making a different argument. I don't know whether banning breeds affects the frequency of dog-fighting. 

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The creation of BSL was because they wanted to stop dog-fighting (with the ignorant belief that you can ban a dog breed and therefore nobody will own it, breed it, sell it, etc) and to stop dogs from attacking people

It's had the same effect on bully breed ownership and dog-fighting as drug illegality has had on stopping drug use.

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8 hours ago, Newt said:

Actually, huskies are a pretty clean breed. I own a 4 year old and I've never had to bathe her.

Does the fur not hold smell much? Seems like thick fur would hold smells better. As picky as I am about smells I feel like I'd have to bathe pretty much any breed on a daily basis... They gotta go outside so they pick up outdoor smells, not really anything that can be helped. The few dogs I've been around have had odor issues just because of the fact that they had to go outside, they were otherwise clean, just the smell. ><

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All dogs have a dog smell, there's no way around it.

If someone says that their dog doesn't smell, they've just become blind to the smell. If someone walks into your house and you own dogs, they can smell your dogs. There's just no way around it, a dog's scent glands in it's feet will leave smell all over your carpets.

This is the reason why I don't allow dogs on furniture.

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26 minutes ago, Kinare said:

Does the fur not hold smell much? Seems like thick fur would hold smells better. As picky as I am about smells I feel like I'd have to bathe pretty much any breed on a daily basis... They gotta go outside so they pick up outdoor smells, not really anything that can be helped. The few dogs I've been around have had odor issues just because of the fact that they had to go outside, they were otherwise clean, just the smell. ><

Comparatively with other long-haired breeds, they don't hold much odor. I live in a rural area, though, so there aren't too many "bad smells" for them to pick up.

3 minutes ago, Gamedog said:

All dogs have a dog smell, there's no way around it.

If someone says that their dog doesn't smell, they've just become blind to the smell. If someone walks into your house and you own dogs, they can smell your dogs. There's just no way around it, a dog's scent glands in it's feet will leave smell all over your carpets.

This is the reason why I don't allow dogs on furniture.

I have 3 dogs and each has a completely different type of odor. My smaller dog has fur that doesn't shed, so it tends to smell worse if I don't bathe it regularly. My husky, on the other hand, doesn't have a noticeable scent (even when you're face-to-face with it) and is much cleaner than my other pets. As I said before, I've never needed to bathe her. A dog has a scent, yes, but it isn't always bad or strong.

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There are some legitimately over aggressive dogs out there. However dogs are bred, or rather SHOULD be bred, with utility in mind. If high aggression provides some use then that's fine. Why ban something useful? I feel like most dog related violence is because people are stupid about their animals. There should be a free, but well thought out licensing program for dog ownership. 

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11 hours ago, Brass said:

There are some legitimately over aggressive dogs out there. However dogs are bred, or rather SHOULD be bred, with utility in mind. If high aggression provides some use then that's fine. Why ban something useful? I feel like most dog related violence is because people are stupid about their animals. There should be a free, but well thought out licensing program for dog ownership. 

One can imagine that breeds designed to be violent might be used by the police force, but be illegal for civilian use. 

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47 minutes ago, Saxon said:

One can imagine that breeds designed to be violent might be used by the police force, but be illegal for civilian use. 

Well, police dogs aren't violent to begin with. The dogs who are used to apprehend suspects are actually playing a game with their handlers, they're not human-aggressive in any way.
Dogs like APBT *are* aggressive/violent, but only towards other dogs.

You could certainly use an APBT for police work though.

tumblr_niwiyild9c1tgwu33o6_500.jpgtumblr_niwiyild9c1tgwu33o3_1280.jpg

 

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People also assume that aggression is aggression, when that's not the case. Dogs can be aggressive towards other dogs, but nice with humans, and vice versa.

The scumbags who breed fighting dogs do NOT want a dog that is aggressive towards humans, because then, you won't be able to control said dog.

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12 minutes ago, Troj said:

People also assume that aggression is aggression, when that's not the case. Dogs can be aggressive towards other dogs, but nice with humans, and vice versa.

The scumbags who breed fighting dogs do NOT want a dog that is aggressive towards humans, because then, you won't be able to control said dog.

This is the most important thing people can learn, IMO, besides learning not to label their dogs as a breed it isn't. Most people, especially those who enact these laws, don't know that theres a difference between DA and HA.

As for the dogs who were HA being fighting dogs, what you've said is true, but the phrase that people say about "dog-fighters culled man-aggressive dogs" isn't entirely true, There were a few HA dogs and other non-HA who were downright mean at times, but were bred and kept because they were good fighters and had good offspring.

Adam's GrCh Zebo ROM was a very good fighter (won 7 fights) who was bred multiple times, as you can see here:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=offspring&dog_id=7
It's said that Zebo mauled a child, and his handler was actually scared of him at times.

Another even more well-known dog, Garner's Ch Chinaman ROM, is said to have been HA. Rumors say he's a man-biter, but others say that he was an "excite-biter", meaning if he wasn't released at another dog soon enough, he would turn around and bite your hands.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=offspring&dog_id=26

Floyd Boudreaux, one of the most well-known dogmen of all time, had a dog named Walling's Bullyson. Bullyson attacked another dogman who was in Boudreaux's yard, and was smacked with a shovel. He got disoriented and backed off, then ran back for another attack and was hit again.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=offspring&dog_id=51

Super Gnat's GrCh Angus ROM was another HA dog, who mauled a child. He wasn't bred as often as the other dogs, but his ROM status says that he's had multiple champion offspring.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=offspring&dog_id=51

Despite all of this, human-aggression in general just isn't common in this breed, so when we hear about "Pit Bulls" attacking people in the news, you can be certain that the culprit isn't a purebred APBT.

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2 hours ago, មិនស្អាត said:

We should ban the "rapper" Pitbull, his "music" and ugly bald head are annoying as fuck.

The back of his head has weird skin that folds when he leans back. Like in the back of his head.  I hate his head, I hate his weird skin. It's like these three deep ridges.

Edited by jcstinks
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On 1/13/2016 at 1:44 AM, Barnectomy said:

Some think we should ban certain dog breeds because of their reputation. Should we also ban black people because they have a higher risk of committing crimes?

Dry-feet/wet-feet rule.

If something is established in the country, it's hard for us to want to ban it, even if it's dangerous. Like alcohol, cigarettes, or Spaniards.

If it's new and dangerous, we want to keep it out at all costs.

I know this is a facetious post, but we have a currently-active thread about keeping people from Syria and northern Africa out of Europe due to the danger they propose. But no one (reputable) talks about deporting currently-dangerous groups from the country. The ethnic groups most associated with crime are never, ever going to be banned, just as pit bulls probably won't be (effectively) banned, because they're too well-established. Look at prohibition in the USA, they never managed to actually get alcohol out of the country, just make it go underground.

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50 minutes ago, jcstinks said:

Dry-feet/wet-feet rule.

If something is established in the country, it's hard for us to want to ban it, even if it's dangerous. Like alcohol, cigarettes, or Spaniards.

If it's new and dangerous, we want to keep it out at all costs.

I know this is a facetious post, but we have a currently-active thread about keeping people from Syria and northern Africa out of Europe due to the danger they propose. But no one (reputable) talks about deporting currently-dangerous groups from the country. The ethnic groups most associated with crime are never, ever going to be banned, just as pit bulls probably won't be (effectively) banned, because they're too well-established. Look at prohibition in the USA, they never managed to actually get alcohol out of the country, just make it go underground.

Tell me more about this dangerous proposition; was the stone on the engagement ring especially pointy?

Edited by Saxon
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I don't know what to believe about Pit Bulls, but I'm also not a good breed identifier and I apologize in advance for that. I do think that a lot of these alleged 'attacks' are from those dogs that may have been bred to protect the family and go after intruders, or just plain mistreated at some point in their lives.

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5 hours ago, PheagleAdler said:

I don't know what to believe about Pit Bulls, but I'm also not a good breed identifier and I apologize in advance for that. I do think that a lot of these alleged 'attacks' are from those dogs that may have been bred to protect the family and go after intruders, or just plain mistreated at some point in their lives.

It has to do with shit like this:

980x.jpg

 

056e8027672478ddba56e04ef9a5cf72_full.jp

 

050209_dmx.jpg

For the record, "Hulk the Pit Bull" isn't a Pit Bull, he isn't even a Pit Bull mix. He's a French MastiffxAmerican Bulldog x American Bully. The dogs in DMX's music videos were purebred APBT, though.
and before someone argues this, I've made two charts on this dog's pedigree:
http://notapitbull.tumblr.com/post/113122182352/i-figured-id-make-an-actual-post-regarding-this

http://notapitbull.tumblr.com/post/113230016312/you-guys-are-probably-getting-sick-of-this-by

Edited by Gamedog
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