if you could choose over whether you were born or not

[Wrecker]

let's say prior to your own conception, you were given the opportunity to view your own life exactly as you see it right now, and you had the option to decide if you wanted to be a part of it or not... what would you choose?

i've always figured "FUCK NO," but stupid fucking depression is getting the better of me again, and i can't stop thinking about it. it would be so much easier if we had a choice in that matter.

[Zaraphayx]

What's the alternative? non-existence? Could I even be capable of comprehending what non-existence feels like to contrast the two experiences?

I'm inclined to say yes only because these days I tend to think my positive experiences outweigh the negative.

[Hewge]

If I was never born... I would have never discovered otters...

I CHOOSE LIFE!

[Umbra.Exe]

I think I'd choose to be born over... Not existing or whatever. Sometimes I wish I wasn't around but, most times I think living is pretty darn okay.

And if I didn't exist, I wouldn't get to enjoy the finer things in life, such as horribly-made animated films! :V

[Vaer]

I'm actually quite torn on this. But for many reasons I'm going with "no".

Sign me up for non-existence.

[ZorroValdez]

As much as I hate a large number of things about my current state, a select few of my friends would have killed themselves if not for me. It's a good feeling helping a friend out of that kind of situation, even if the favor isn't returned. 

[GarthTheWereWolf]

The world would be a far bleaker place without me.

Of course I choose to live <;

[DevilishlyHandsome49]

Yikes...um I wouldn't say not to exist but damn sometimes I wish I could start over with the knowledge I have now

Edit: wow, realize how redundant my comment was to the question

Edited November 18, 2015 by DevilishlyHandsome49

[DrDingo]

'No' allows the opportunity to float around in your dad's testicles until you're chucked in the bin. And that's it. Game over

'Yes' allows the opportunity to shape and change the world around you, no matter how small the scale. To have an impact, be somebody and actually do something, good or bad, that will be remembered.

OP, you typed this out. We're all collectively responding and engaging with your ideas. That's an impact that could only happen if you were to be alive.

[Dijon]

As I see it right now? I've probably got another 60 or so years left in me so it seems a little early to make a decision like that. A lot of life so far hasn't been great (most of it has been my own fault so I'd say I p much deserved that suffering) but I feel like things can only get better as I get older and wiser and maybe someday I won't be the dumbest asshole ever!

So I guess to answer the question, yes?

[Umbra.Exe]

'No' allows the opportunity to float around in your dad's testicles until you're chucked in the bin. And that's it. Game over

Who's to say one's existence must sit with the male cell? You also have the lovely alternative of sitting around in your mom's ovaries until you're bled out into the outside world...

And then you get chucked in the bin! (Game over for this playthrough, too.)

As I see it right now? I've probably got another 60 or so years left in me so it seems a little early to make a decision like that. A lot of life so far hasn't been great (most of it has been my own fault so I'd say I p much deserved that suffering) but I feel like things can only get better as I get older and wiser and maybe someday I won't be the dumbest asshole ever!

So I guess to answer the question, yes?

For some reason, your current avatar fits this so well. Tossin' his lil' birdie arms up as if to say: "I dunno!"
You also make a good point there... Most of us are pretty early on in our lives to be deciding that sort of thing.

[Dijon]

For some reason, your current avatar fits this so well. Tossin' his lil' birdie arms up as if to say: "I dunno!"

idk ¯\_(-v-)_/¯ idc

[DrDingo]

Who's to say one's existence must sit with the male cell? You also have the lovely alternative of sitting around in your mom's ovaries until you're bled out into the outside world...

Makes you think, doesn't it? You're all here by an incredibly slim chance because you outswam millions of other sperm cells. The actual odds of you, as you are, growing up to be yourself are way too remarkable to just be chucked out

The other sperm around you could have ended being entirely different people. Doctors.. lawyers.. but you're the furry one :v

[Vaer]

The other sperm around you could have ended being entirely different people. Doctors.. lawyers.. but you're the furry one :v

That makes me feel so much better about my existence.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Vaer

[Dijon]

The other sperm around you could have ended being entirely different people. Doctors.. lawyers.. but you're the furry one :v

I want to change my answer

[Lisek]

Makes you think, doesn't it? You're all here by an incredibly slim chance because you outswam millions of other sperm cells. The actual odds of you, as you are, growing up to be yourself are way too remarkable to just be chucked out

The other sperm around you could have ended being entirely different people. Doctors.. lawyers.. but you're the furry one :v

You speak as if genetics 100% contributes to the type of person one grows up to be. I think nurture plays a much larger part. Most of my personality was forged by my childhood.

Also I'm pretty sure there are furry doctor/lawyers.

[DrDingo]

You speak as if genetics 100% contributes to the type of person one grows up to be. I think nurture plays a much larger part. Most of my personality was forged by my childhood.

Also I'm pretty sure there are furry doctor/lawyers.

I'm joking for the most part, but hey. The topic's one which is heavily debated over. The innate argument vs conditioning.

Suppose you were born looking different. Different people might notice or talk to you, meaning you get different friends with different interests who shape you differently.

You could have been a different gender and been encouraged by different sorts of people to do different things. 

Maybe someone remarks that you have a good body for athletics and you get into sports and make different friends.

Ignoring the brain, even something as small as one's physical features could have a dramatic effect on how they live and act. It could determine whether you get picked on, whether you feel vain or alone or both, and so much other shit.

[Lisek]

I'm joking for the most part, but hey. The topic's one which is heavily debated over. The innate argument vs conditioning.

Suppose you were born looking different. Different people might notice or talk to you, meaning you get different friends with different interests who shape you differently.

You could have been a different gender and been encouraged by different sorts of people to do different things. 

Maybe someone remarks that you have a good body for athletics and you get into sports and make different friends.

Ignoring the brain, even something as small as one's physical features could have a dramatic effect on how they live and act. It could determine whether you get picked on, whether you feel vain or alone or both, and so much other shit.

Hey, that's a good point. I have never looked at it that way before. The Butterfly effect, as it were. In line with this topic, if anyone who said "no" here actually never existed, we have no idea how different things may be. 

I would love to have some way to see that world, this kind of thing fascinates me. Without seeing that, how can any of us make a sound judgement?

[I Did It For The Cat Girls]

You speak as if genetics 100% contributes to the type of person one grows up to be. I think nurture plays a much larger part. Most of my personality was forged by my childhood.

Also I'm pretty sure there are furry doctor/lawyers.

Except genes do have a profoundly potent influence on what type of person someone turns out to be. 

People find blissful solace in believing that any person of any background, sex, or creed can change into a new man or woman by simply willing themselves into a different lifestyle. 

Reality sings a different tune, however. For example, part of the reason communism failed ideologically was that the state cannot mold a man or woman into something fundamentally different or new through propaganda or social conditioning alone.

Why do Western-style democracies fail in Middle Eastern countries so often? Because the people there, as a whole, are not genetically predisposed towards exhibiting the behaviors that are conducive to a "truly" democratic country or society. They have their own tried-and-true ways of doing things there for a reason.

 

 

[Dijon]

Except genes do have a profoundly potent influence on what type of person someone turns out to be. 

People find blissful solace in believing that any person of any background, sex, or creed can change into a new man or woman by simply willing themselves into a different lifestyle. 

Reality sings a different tune, however. For example, part of the reason communism failed ideologically was that the state cannot mold a man or woman into something fundamentally different or new through propaganda or social conditioning alone.

Why do Western-style democracies fail in Middle Eastern countries so often? Because the people there, as a whole, are not genetically predisposed towards exhibiting the behaviors that are conducive to a "truly" democratic country or society. They have their own tried-and-true ways of doing things there for a reason.

[CITATION NEEDED]

also that is p racist

[Alexxx-Returns]

Absolutely not. If I were to have not been born, the following good things would be true:

- My parents would have had a better second child.

- My flatmates would have had a better flatmate.

- All my ex partners wouldn't probably be scrubbing themselves off in the shower each day for 5 hours to try and scrub off the shame of having been with me in either a sexual and/or emotional way.

- Several people at school wouldn't have gotten kicked out for "bullying" me (they should've gotten awards for bullying me and encouraged more people to do it. Bullying me should've been a class or an after-school club).

- I wouldn't exist and everyone would be better off and happier.

[I Did It For The Cat Girls]

[CITATION NEEDED]

also that is p racist

Well, here's a big one relating to the field of genopolitics:

Heritability of political affiliation and beliefs?

A liberal gene probabaly doesn't exist, but there are certain mean attitudes and beliefs that liberals hold (greater acceptance of foreign cultures and peoples, openess to change, greater empathy for outside groups) which run polar opposite to those that conservatives posssess (skeptical of foreign cultures and peoples, less empathy for outside groups, and a stoic resistance to change). If I had my PC at my beck and call, I'd throw more links your way. 

And no, saying that Middle Eastern peoples don't do democracy particularly well isn't racist. 

I think you're assuming that I consider Middle Eastern culture to be inferior to the cultures of Europe simply because there's a relative scarcity of liberalism or democracy in that area of the world.

I consider the Middle Eastern different, not "savage", "backwards", or in need of "civilizing" by a First World nation.

Even the Huff Post is throwing in the towl on this whole nurture vs nature debate.

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by I Did It For The Cat Girls

[Sar]

How would we know the choice that we made?

[Sourdough]

There are no friends or bread in non-existence so I choose to be sliced outta my momma like medical science intended.

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

Life sucks and then you die

[Vallium]

bluuuuh, depressing thread #132123...

 I chose yes but...sometimes I think no, because if the decisions I made to be happy were wrong, then I couldn't make them and have a bad ending, and they should have ended me if I wouldn't have turned out the way they wanted.

But otherwise...I've accomplished a lot and want to accomplish so much more, I just don't want to feel guilty for doing things I have a drive for.

Edited November 18, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1

[Bloodshot_Eyes]

What if you did, but before incarnation you were in such a transcendent state of awareness that you're perfectly allowing of the pain that would be in your life in order to get what you want out of being here?

Aside from that... I'm already here. Fuck it. If I succeeded in stopping my birth, it'd remove the reason why I wanted to stop it; which was the experience I didn't want to have. Why would I want to leave something I have yet to experience? 

You can think a thought, but you're not experiencing it until you can feel it. Much like you can plan a life, but not experience it until you're feeling it.  Before that feeling experience, there's no reason not to be born, unless you plan is not to be born. But then, why would you be here?

[Azure]

As terrible and and depressing life gets at times, no matter how flat and emotionless and horrible it becomes, it is worth it to be here. Because tomorrow is another day and another chance, another attempt to change and be or do what you wish. At least thats what I tell myself over and over without really believing a word of it. Maybe that will change one of these days. Regret comes from not doing things rather than doing them, and its merely a question of jow long you let the list grow before you cant take it anymore.

[Tsuujou]

As terrible and and depressing life gets at times, no matter how flat and emotionless and horrible it becomes, it is worth it to be here. Because tomorrow is another day and another chance, another attempt to change and be or do what you wish. At least thats what I tell myself over and over without really believing a word of it. Maybe that will change one of these days. Regret comes from not doing things rather than doing them, and its merely a question of jow long you let the list grow before you cant take it anymore.

If there were any one person that makes this trustworthy advice, Azure is most definitely that person. 

[Zop]

Would I remember what I saw before I was born so I could like invest in apple and prevent 9/11?

[Dr. Doggo]

Personally I'd prefer a reset button.

[Alexxx-Returns]

Personally I'd prefer a reset button.

I'd prefer a re-roll.

[DrDingo]

I am kind of surprised that more than a third of us said no.

I mean, one of the things that I always think about with death is leaving a footprint. The idea of never existing and doing nothing to or for the world is kind of frightening to me.

[Gator]

there are a lot of things i would probably not have done if i had known what i know now.  existing isn't one of them.

[Dr. Doggo]

Why do Western-style democracies fail in Middle Eastern countries so often? [...]

Democracy is set up for failure anyway. Most people care more about their personal needs and want to believe that they'll be fulfilled, regardless of long-term consequences of the government's decisions or the feasibility of the desired result. That's completely normal and expected, and not a put-down to anyone, it's just that most people don't have the time let alone the willpower or brainpower to understand more about their government, economics, history, and so on. Then we narrow that load of people down to the most "competent" ones like we do here in the parliamentary system, whose members can't be guaranteed that they'll vote outside of their personal interests, foreign interests, or rootless international interests, and MPs can't be 100% trusted that they'll vote on the interests of the party they're in, namely the interest of those who elected them.

That and these very very wealthy interests groups will finance/acquire various media outlets from newspapers to radio to tv to movies and assume direct control of majority opinion and ultimately decide the outcome of the voting through astroturfing, shilling, smearing, omitting details, and pushing half-truths in a "free press" that is controlled by the elite, that is also free to lie. When they speak democracy, they don't mean government by the people, but they mean financial democracy where nothing counts but money.

[Harbinger]

Huh, i dunno, i dont think i was worth being born yet, i dont have any IRL friends let alone a girlfriend and most likely will never have a family so unless i can do some good like save a species or just help as many rare ones as i can i wont have made any worthwhile impact.

[Pignog]

I think if you're answering "no" you're probably depressed or facing some kind of mental illness. People get depressed for lots of reasons, but seek help if it's available and don't kill yourselves.

Except genes do have a profoundly potent influence on what type of person someone turns out to be. 

People find blissful solace in believing that any person of any background, sex, or creed can change into a new man or woman by simply willing themselves into a different lifestyle. 

Reality sings a different tune, however. For example, part of the reason communism failed ideologically was that the state cannot mold a man or woman into something fundamentally different or new through propaganda or social conditioning alone.

Why do Western-style democracies fail in Middle Eastern countries so often? Because the people there, as a whole, are not genetically predisposed towards exhibiting the behaviors that are conducive to a "truly" democratic country or society. They have their own tried-and-true ways of doing things there for a reason.

Sorry to make a giant effort post, but on the contrary, a lot of sociological and psychological research points to the environment as a major predictor of a person's behaviour and their life chances. Obviously it's not the only predictor, but it plays a large role and it's something we can actually control.

The easiest example I can think of here in Canada is the difference in a variety of outcomes between Aboriginal people and the general population. Aboriginals are incarcerated at higher rates, make lower incomes, are more likely to be unemployed, commit suicide at higher rates, and graduate from every level of education at lower rates than the national average. The only genetic evidence I can think of links a change in their diets over the last couple hundred years to health problems (eg. a change from their 10,000yr+ diet of hunting and gathering to a settler / western diet, and rates of obesity far higher than the national average).

Most of the evidence points to systemic discrimination (eg. abuse of past generations in the "residential school system", police arrest rates, discrimination in hiring), lack of resources (eg. funding for schools in rural regions/on reserves, lack of preparation for post-secondary, no funding for post-secondary), lack of opportunities (eg. poor job market, no activities for youth) and other factors like poor parenting (due to a lot of the factors above experienced by parents themselves) not preparing kids with the behavioural skills that we see in more successful people (social skills, grit, determination, problem solving, etc.).

tl;dr our environments play a major role in who we become. I think it's very seductive to think that the most successful among us are self-made people who rose to the top on strong work ethics and good decision-making skills, but this ignores the opportunities, upbringing, resources, and even the role of random chance (think of all the people who work just as hard but for one reason or another end up in a dead-end job) that made them.

[DrDingo]

I think if you're answering "no" you're probably depressed or facing some kind of mental illness. People get depressed for lots of reasons, but seek help if it's available and don't kill yourselves.

Nah. A big factor in the surge of 'no' is that the people wish the bad things and sadness they caused didn't happen.

Killing oneself would just leave behind more bad things and sadness.

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

I'm happy to be alive. So should everyone.. It's a gift! never take it for granted

[Vaer]

I am kind of surprised that more than a third of us said no.

I mean, one of the things that I always think about with death is leaving a footprint. The idea of never existing and doing nothing to or for the world is kind of frightening to me.

For those of us who said "no" what if the biggest impact we could make on the world was to not exist at all? 

What if the world really did end up in a better state of affairs? 

If a small and minor event could really shake and impact the world, who's to say that someone no longer existing could benefit everyone else?

[Spot]

We need the world the world don't need us, and what do we do in return? We treat it like shit.

I'm Mr. Fox and I support nihilism.

Brought to you and sponsored by: the goth and emo community.

[DrDingo]

For those of us who said "no" what if the biggest impact we could make on the world was to not exist at all? 

What if the world really did end up in a better state of affairs? 

If a small and minor event could really shake and impact the world, who's to say that someone no longer existing could benefit everyone else?

If that were true, if you knew to be doing something so bad and didn't stop it, you'd have to be actively attempting to hinder others. And if someone is to have such clear aims to know that they're shaking the world up and continue with it, they probably believe enough in what they're doing enough to want to continue existing.

If someone was conscious that they were doing something to hurt people and didn't like doing it, they'd stop.

[Mikazuki Marazhu]

We need the world the world don't need us, and what do we do in return? We treat it like shit.

I'm Mr. Fox and I support nihilism.

Brought to you and sponsored by: the goth and emo community.

Yeah pretty much how I feel about humanity.

[DrGravitas]

For those of us who said "no" what if the biggest impact we could make on the world was to not exist at all? 

What if the world really did end up in a better state of affairs? 

If a small and minor event could really shake and impact the world, who's to say that someone no longer existing could benefit everyone else?

I think the ground state of the world should be defined sans existence. It's a more accurate portrayal of the ephemeral nature of ones life relative to the greater whole. In that sense, no existence equates with no impact and therefore any existence (no matter how bad or insignificant) constitutes a greater impact than no existence at all.

As for whether the impact is good or bad, I think we need to define independent scales; a total picture will always yield insignificance. Can anyone honestly say that anyone here has truly had a wholly negative impact on their closest kin? To their entire community? Even the basic consumption of resources give purpose to producers.

I feel that all persons existence enriches reality. Good or bad does not play into it at all.

Edited November 18, 2015 by DrGravitas
duplicate synonym

[Vallium]

Edited November 19, 2015 by WolfNightV4X1

[Vaer]

-stuff-

-stuff-

I really needed to hear these. Thanks.

Still, it wasn't enough to make me consider swaying in my response. Not that you guys were trying to.

But it still makes me question existence even more.

Despite "good" or "bad" outcomes and events, if one's existence serves to enrich reality, who's reality is benefitting? Who is it enriching? The beings outside of one's person? Or the being themself?

It just makes me wonder, if we can assume that reality will continue to prosper then there should be no significant ramifications with a person choosing non-existence.

If non-existence truly brings no impact to the world then what harm comes with that decision? 

No one would know you existed so everyone would go along with their lives.

[DrGravitas]

I really needed to hear these. Thanks.

Still, it wasn't enough to make me consider swaying in my response. Not that you guys were trying to.

But it still makes me question existence even more.

Despite "good" or "bad" outcomes and events, if one's existence serves to enrich reality, who's reality is benefitting? Who is it enriching? The beings outside of one's person? Or the being themself?

It just makes me wonder, if we can assume that reality will continue to prosper then there should be no significant ramifications with a person choosing non-existence.

If non-existence truly brings no impact to the world then what harm comes with that decision? 

No one would know you existed so everyone would go along with their lives.

I would say that reality itself benefits. Obviously, without existence one cannot be said to have any state at all; they are not zero or negative but rather null. Without existence, the being would have no reality at all because reality can't be had relative to nothing. Moreover, through their relation with reality, other beings' reality are likewise enriched.

It's not a question of whether a choice not to exist would cause no harm, If we accept that the choice to exist enriches reality, then rather than no harm the choice brings no value. True, no one would know you existed (nor would you, for that matter) but that doesn't mean that the sum of reality isn't poorer for it.

Edited November 19, 2015 by DrGravitas
Word choice/ordering; grammar

[Vaer]

I would say that reality itself benefits. Obviously, without existence one cannot be said to have any state at all; they are not zero or negative but rather null. Without existence, the being would have no reality at all because reality can't be had relative to nothing. Moreover, through their relation with reality, other beings' reality are likewise enriched.

It's not a question of whether a choice not to exist would cause no harm, If we accept that the choice to exist enriches reality, then rather than no harm the choice brings no value. True, no one would know you existed (nor would you, for that matter) but that doesn't mean that the sum of reality isn't poorer for it.

In that sense, if a being were to become non-existent and become null, then reality should remain in balance since this hypothetical existence was never a part of said reality to begin with.

Non-existence brings no value to the table so we can assume that non-existence wouldnt take anything away.

I would have to believe that being null would mean having no weight upon the state of reality and have no ability to enrich it nor spoil it since one would have been essentially removed from the equation altogether. 

[Luka]

In the end my existence or non-existence is so insignificant in the grand scale of things,that I'll just choose to live and enjoy it while it lasts.
Why not live? None of us can escape death anyway. I don't see why people turn nihilism into a completely depressing thing. It makes me appreciate life more.


 and yes, OW THE EDGE

In regards to suicide, I also think about all the people who never really get a chance to enjoy what it is to truly live.That have their lives cut short, or are forced to live in terrible conditions.  Taking my own life when so many would give anything to have it...feels wrong to me. I could never do that.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Luka
hao 2 grammar

[DrGravitas]

In that sense, if a being were to become non-existent and become null, then reality should remain in balance since this hypothetical existence was never a part of said reality to begin with.

Non-existence brings no value to the table so we can assume that non-existence wouldnt take anything away.

I would have to believe that being null would mean having no weight upon the state of reality and have no ability to enrich it nor spoil it since one would have been essentially removed from the equation altogether. 

I think we align on all but one point. I see no spoiling it; there's only a choice to add something or not factor in at all.

 

But, I don't have anything more to add on this silly hypothetical. We are fortunate to not have our whole lives boil down to a single choice tailed by determinism, but rather a life made up of choices. There's no truly accurate prediction of what our future holds and for that at least, I am thankful.