When is piracy morally justifiable?

[Azu]

This is an issue I tend to think about often, as it gets brought up quite a bit. Usually in gaming forums in relation to abandonware.

In my opinion, I find that piracy is morally justifiable in three situations;

1. When a product is no longer offered, and the only purchasable copies are second-hand
2. When a product has had its price unfairly increased in your particular region by a large margin
3. When a product is not available for purchase in your region

Point one in particular is the strongest reason I will justify pirating of certain media. For example; When an old game is no longer available to purchase anywhere new, then I would rather not pay exuberant prices for a second-hand copy, in which none of the funds are going to the developers or publishers of the game.

Point two is perhaps the most relatable for many people, especially in countries such as Australia or New Zealand, where digital media prices are often unfairly jacked up only for the sake of taking more money out of the pockets of consumers. Many companies are guilty of this practice, such as Valve, Apple and Adobe. Needless to say, piracy is quite rampant in Australia. Gee, I wonder why.

Point three is becoming more of a rare case for me, however it still occurs every now and then. If I can't purchase a product due to my geographical location, I will find other methods of acquisition, and if piracy is the most viable, then so be it. The product should have been offered in my region in the first place.

When do you find piracy to be morally justifiable?

[Spot]

When developers release DLC after DLC, on day one release of the game for that matter. Yeah, fuck that shit, asshole developers try to sell me an unfinished product I'll pirate the fuck out of it. Of course if it's shit I won't even bother with it.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Mr. Fox

[Zytan]

I tend to pirate a game if I want to try it without a bullshit 'all the best bits' demo that's trying to reel me in.  If it's true form is good enough I'll buy it.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Zytan

[Vae]

- When you've already bought a game.
Nintendo is HUGE about this problem, in expecting people to re-buy and re-buy and fucking re-buy the same games for different consoles.
If I already paid once for it, that should be enough. The only time this is justifiable on the company's part is when it's something like an HD remake (remake, not conversion), since a lot of work's put into it.
 

- When a game is an entirely incomplete product, but the company expects you to pay not only a full base price for that incomplete product, but also large amounts for the parts that should have already been there.
This is the entire marketing model behind the Sims. Which has, more recently, also been charging for furniture items and houses and shit in their DLC store ON TOP OF the stupidly expensive expansions / stuff packs.
It's completely justifiable, imo, to pay for the base game, and just pirate everything else. Because fuck that entire marketing model.
 

- When a game is basically unattainable for your region / pricing / the consoles it exists on / etc.
I hardly think I'm taking anything away from the developers if I download a Japanese-exclusive arcade game, or a PS1 game that goes for $300 used on Amazon.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Vae

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

1. When you can't buy it anymore. Like, for example, you can't get ps1 and 2 games new anymore, you can only really either buy them second hand or emulate them, and it's usually a safer bet to emulate because if you buy a game second hand it may not work. Also, this goes for older versions of programs that are still being made, like Photoshop for example. It's easier on the wallet to pirate Photoshop 7 than to buy the newest version when both programs perform a similar or same function.
2. When you literally need the program. Like, if you get a nasty piece of malware or a trojan and you need to clean it, pirating Malwarebytes or something of the like is totally justifiable.
3. When the company is so big that it would not hurt them to pirate the game or program. Like Nintendo, for example.

[MissFleece]

When its not an indie game or small studio film and I want it  

Power to the people, fuck big brother

:V

[pheonixbat]

When it's Adobe.

[Mayonnaise]

When I am too tired to deal with their choice of DRM. Fuck all single player games that NEED constant connection.

 

Edited December 14, 2015 by Mayonnaise

[I Did It For The Cat Girls]

When I feel like pirating. Morality is regulated to the backseat when I fire up my uTorrent client. 

Edited December 14, 2015 by I Did It For The Cat Girls

[Rassah]

When you are not depriving the original owner of their product. When you make an exact copy of their product, they still have it. "Potential earnings" is not something that can be morally justified, so the whole "copyright" idea is itself an immoral idea.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Rassah

[I Did It For The Cat Girls]

25 minutes ago, Rassah said:

When you are not depriving the original owner of their product. When you make an exact copy of their product, they still have it. "Potential earnings" is not something that can be morally justified, so the whole "copyright" idea is an immortal idea itself.

You know, this is pretty rich coming from a person who champions the almighty profit margin with unquestionable devotion. 

[Dr. Doggo]

Usually when I pirate something it's impossible to find what I'm after in the physical form it's exclusively available in. Unless I want to buy it second-hand at a hugely inflated price, in which case forget it.

Say, what's worse: Pirating something that isn't sold anymore, or selling something at three times its retail price?

Edited December 14, 2015 by Sir Gibby

[Half-Note]

I think it's pretty hard not to sympathize with pirates when they need to resort to such activty because of illness and poverty.

[Zeke]

I would also say on content that is hard to acquire due to the company going under Some games, programs, etc). 

School items (textbooks, etc), since textbooks run over 60 to 100+ for a book you may only use once, certain programs, etc.

[Onnes]

Things I acquire:

Textbooks that aren't published by Dover. There's something absurd about having to shell out $200 for a textbook as a graduate student.

Productivity software that's priced for commercial use. If you go with less expensive, less powerful/supported alternatives then you are putting yourself at a competitive disadvantage compared to everyone else who just downloads the big names.

[Cingal]

I tend to just pirate stuff because I want it.

 

I don't really make much attempt to justify it. I'm aware it's not exactly the most morally virtuous thing to do, but, fuck it, I'm broke.

[PastryOfApathy]

I pirated that shit Major/Minor "game" and I think that was pretty justified.

[willow]

I only find it necessary to pirate when it's something I can't get through conventional means, but other than that, I'd rather at least try and support artists/companies

[Half-Note]

29 minutes ago, willow said:

I'd rather at least try and support artists/companies

Knowing they exploit children, support the bombing of desert villages and own your soul?

#JetFuelCantMeltSteelBeams #TheMoreYouKnow #JewsDid911 #JewsDidWTC

[RTDragon]

7 hours ago, pheonixbat said:

When it's Adobe.

Considering they're move to the creative cloud now. Open source software is a much popular alternative these days.

[Rassah]

7 hours ago, I Did It For The Cat Girls said:

You know, this is pretty rich coming from a person who champions the almighty profit margin with unquestionable devotion. 

Actually, this might surprise you to learn, but I don't champion the almighty profit, I actually champion unwavering ethics. It just so happens that if people voluntarily trade for mutual benefit, and make a profit out of it, I support that too. And if someone tries to steal something from them (take, by force or threat of force, without their consent), well then I don't consider that ethical. If a friend of mine has a digital copy, and he shares it by letting me have a copy too, then the third party that buts into it, wanting something of mine, is the one being unethical. I'll even go one further: no one has a right to a profit or an income. If your software/art/music isn't making you money, it's no one's fault but your own.

[Hakar-Kerarmor]

When you already own the software/thing, but your copy stopped working.

When it is no longer for sale.

 

Anything else, just don't buy it.

[Azu]

20 hours ago, pheonixbat said:

When it's Adobe.

Not just only for how overpriced their software is, but their new software as a service model is terrible. It's blatantly greedy

[Kaedal]

2 hours ago, Azurex said:

Not just only for how overpriced their software is, but their new software as a service model is terrible. It's blatantly greedy

Not to mention the fact that the price doesn't match the quality. Yes, their software is good, but it's not good enough to warrant the ridiculous price-tag. 

[Kaedal]

Just now, 6tails said:

The ridiculous price tag is likely due to all the fucking time they have to spend fixing Flash's anus-gaping security holes.

I think you're using the word "fixing" very liberally here. There are anti-drug activists that fix more than Adobe.

[Sourdough]

When you're denied a basic right like food, water, or freedom. Then you set sail and seize any Crown ship foolish enough to cross your bough.

[Azu]

7 hours ago, Sourdough said:

When you're denied a basic right like food, water, or freedom. Then you set sail and seize any Crown ship foolish enough to cross your bough.

I thought you were dead

[PastryOfApathy]

6 hours ago, Azurex said:

I thought you were dead

Pirates don't get good internet reception.

[Sourdough]

8 hours ago, Azurex said:

I thought you were dead

I only died a little.

[Endless/Nameless]

The only times I feel ok with it is when it's either out of print, or not readily available im your region. 

I mean, I don't really care that much, but I try to be law-abiding....

[Hakar-Kerarmor]

I thought of another instance where I think piracy is justified:

When they first two parts of a trilogy are perfectly fine, but the third expects you to sell your soul to the devil in order to play it. I'm looking at you Mass Effect 3.

[Rassah]

 

On 12/15/2015 at 9:27 AM, 6tails said:

The ridiculous price tag is likely due to all the fucking time they have to spend fixing Flash's anus-gaping security holes. Gotta make up for that lost revenue somehow.

Karl Marx's debunked "labor theory of value" right there. This idea would suggest that they can make billions by simply intentionally adding bugs that they can fix later (like digging holes and filing them up), when doing that would just make them go out of business for selling a shitty overpriced product.

[ShioBear]

ill start out by saying i pirate everything under the sun software, music, games, movies etc.

although i do this, i do this knowing it is completely wrong.  pirating in any ways is technically stealing, and yes you can try to justify stealing in any way you like. but in the end its wrong.

i do things that are wrong because 1. i dont care. 2. im poor.

when i have the ability to support the artists and inventors i care about i buy their shit.

other than that i honestly dont care, im a bad person sue me.

Edited December 20, 2015 by ShioBear
duplicate words

[Catilda Lily]

My phone hates any songs I have from a cd, so I download new copies of those online. I already paid for it, I want to be able to use it.

[Draconas]

• when it's no longer available
• when you've already bought it once
• when there's no demo to see if it works (as long as you buy the game after or delete the bootleg)
• not available in your region
• microsoft windows
• retardedly priced ( $400 for a fucking video editing suite?!)
• when the creators suddenly hide it behind a giant paywall
• similar reasons stated above

shit ive "obtained"

• sony vegas
• windows XP/7 (did pay for an actual license at one point, why buy again?)
• few select games with no demos
• music from youtube that I like

Edited December 22, 2015 by Draconas

[KookyFox]

When the game is released by a big company that is not indie, or in need for money... especially snce the former have a bad tendency to price their games like luxury products, I used to buy my games second hand when I was a kid, but with digital copies this not an option anymore either. So yeah, I just do what I want cuz a pirate is free, I am a pirate!

[Pignog]

i would never pirate a thing and deprive intellectual property holders of their deserved payments

[Rassah]

5 minutes ago, Pignog said:

i would never pirate a thing and deprive intellectual property holders of their deserved payments

Have you explored this idea beyond just that you believe they deserve it? Why do you think they deserve their payments?

[Pignog]

1 hour ago, Rassah said:

Have you explored this idea beyond just that you believe they deserve it? Why do you think they deserve their payments?

because it's immoral and violates the laws of gods and men

[Rassah]

 

14 minutes ago, Pignog said:

because it's immoral and violates the laws of gods and men

It's immoral to deserve payments? I mean, I agree, but that can't be right...

[evan]

i see what game we're playing here

[Vaer]

2 minutes ago, evan said:

i see what game we're playing here

[Luka]

When I want it to be

[Rassah]

Since I've had this conversation countless times, I'll just finish it myself.

 

🐯 Intellectual property holders deserve payments.

🐱 Why?

🐯 Because they worked hard to create what they did.

🐱 Does working hard to create something means you deserve to get paid? What if they sung something awful and off key, or smeared poop all over paper, creating something no one wants? Do they deserve to be paid for working hard to create something useless? Conversely, if they do deserve to get paid, who should be forced to pay them to acquire something they don't want?

🐯 OK, so simply working hard by itself doesn't mean you deserve to get paid, but if you create something that people enjoy, then you deserve to be paid by those people.

🐱 So, let's say I'm an expert violinists, and I go to a metro station, and start playing. A lot of people will no doubt enjoy my performance. Does that mean I can start demanding payment from anyone within earshot?

🐯 Well, no, because it was your music that you were sharing with them without explicitly telling them they'll need to pay for it.

🐱 What if I played someone else's music? Say something by Daft Punk. Does that mean everyone within earshot now owes Daft Punk money?

🐯 No, cause you are the one who stole it from them, when you started playing their song.

🐱 But I was the one who performed it. It was my work from the idea, a thought, that was in my head. Can we police thoughts and charge people for having them? Or for using their own instruments to express those ideas, be they a violin or a computer?

🐯 No... OK, let's go back a bit. I mentioned that you were not explicitly telling people that they need to pay for your performance. You weren't restricting anyone from your art. What if you were, by performing in a closed concert hall or showing art in a private gallery, and someone snuk in and got to experience it for free?

🐱 Well then their crime isn't intellectual property theft, it's trespassing, and stealing a service without paying for it. The art has nothing to do with it, as this would be no different from getting a haircut and running off without paying.

🐯 But what if they took pictures of the art? Or recorded the performance? And then shared it with others?

🐱 But I still have my art, or can still do my musical performance. They haven't deprived me of anything.

🐯 They deprived you of future earnings, since people don't have to pay you to experience your art.

🐱 Do people deserve to be paid for work? We already discussed this, and the answer is no. So I'm not entitled to anyone's money, and if people stop coming, then I better do something to make them come again. Besides, people like coming to see original art works, and listen to live performances, so they'll still come despite copies of my work being out there.

🐯 But how will artists get paid for creating art? What incentive will they have?

🐱 Artists don't deserve to get paid for creating art. They can ask for payment, and if people appreciate their art, they will be paid. The how is not for us to figure out, but for the people selling their art. As for motivation, isn't creating art, not money, the main motivations for artists? Besides, artists have found ways to make a living throughout millennia. Look at the biggest explosion of art in our history, the Renaissance. They're was no concept of intellectual property back then. Artists still worked as artists and made money through commissions. Sometimes even by making copies of other artist's works. Technology progressed, and making and sharing art has become much easier, putting some people, like art reproductionists, out of business, but technology always does that. But artists can still get hired and make money, and with sharing of art, more people have access to inspiration and ideas. Ideally it should make our collective creativity even greater, while restricting things because some people deserve to be paid would only make things not as great.

The end.

[evan]

logical fallacy: a solo play

[Saxon]

I don't think Piracy is morally justifiable. It is hilarious to watch pirates try to rationalise their stealing; they already know that it's wrong.

[Rassah]

What about those that know that it is not wrong, but the very concept of intellectual property is wrong? Less hilarious I assume.

[Saxon]

On 24/12/2015 at 2:02 AM, Rassah said:

38 minutes ago, Rassah said:

What about those that know that it is not wrong, but the very concept of intellectual property is wrong? Less hilarious I assume.

Since I've had this conversation countless times, I'll just finish it myself.

I think they're wrong. I suspect you tried to express this opinion earlier, when you had a long winded argument with yourself. You attack straw men, because they're the only arguments you can dispatch. :\

I think your viewpoint is too self entitled, a well; just look at your sentiment towards content creators: "Artists don't deserve to get paid for creating art. They can ask for payment, and if people appreciate their art, they will be paid. The how is not for us to figure out, but for the people selling their art. As for motivation, isn't creating art, not money, the main motivations for artists? "

Content creators don't owe you anything, Rassah. If you want them to make work for you to enjoy then you do owe them payment. You should not expect to be indulged for free, while lecturing penniless artists that they don't need money anyway because you think that's an impure motivation.

 

 

[Rassah]

26 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Content creators don't owe you anything, Rassah. If you want them to make work for you to enjoy then you do owe them payment.

Agreed, artists do not owe me anything, but if you claim that I do owe artists payment, then that just goes back to the question of whether people deserve to be paid for work. Any work. (smear poop on a piece of paper, post it online, "Oh, you saw that? $5 please!") The obvious answer is no they don't. Start exploring the question of what kind of work someone does actually "deserve" to be paid for, and you'll come to the same conclusion I proposed.

[pheonixbat]

19 minutes ago, Rassah said:

Agreed, artists do not owe me anything, but if you claim that I do owe artists payment, then that just goes back to the question of whether people deserve to be paid for work. Any work. (smear poop on a piece of paper, post it online, "Oh, you saw that? $5 please!") The obvious answer is no they don't. Start exploring the question of what kind of work someone does actually "deserve" to be paid for, and you'll come to the same conclusion I proposed.

I think you're missing the point of paying someone for a talent.

 

You're not paying for the mere sight of it, you're paying to tell them you want more and will try and support them for their work! When you pay for a program or something, you support their choices and their ideas. Not just to look at it.