Genderfluid/Agender UK teen can't get bank account, has to choose gender on forms

[Crazy Lee]

Only social media I use is the abomination run by Zukerberg because that's where the people I consider friends (or at least people I tolerate) are. A little back story on this issue: I see on an anti-tumblr page a post from Lizzy the Lezzy about this person. Lizzy the Lezzy is one of the most popular LGBT pages on FB, if you've never heard of it. The post is about a teen who's genderqueer, non-binary or, more likely, "agender", not being able to get a bank account in the UK because they (I'm not using Zir or Xir or that shit) need to specify a gender on their application. First off, I wonder if there's reason that you have to specify gender on a bank application.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-teenager-cant-get-a-bank-account-because-they-dont-iden?utm_term=.sm0Peq7LO#.ftnKm2VBv

More importantly is all the comments about it on Lizzy the Lezzy's page. Almost every single comment has been against the person in the article, Kaelin. "Just check a box." "Enough of this PC shit." And this is from people who are supportive of the LGBT community in general, or else they wouldn't be following Lizzy's page.

And, if you think I'm ranting because I think I support the UK teen, you're wrong. I agree, in principle, with the commenters on Lizzy the Lezzy's page. It seems that the Baby Boomer's children, finally coming of age themselves, being raised on participation trophies, helicopter soccer moms, overprotective parents who tell them they're special snowflakes that should be treated like they're more special than everyone else, and what do you get? This.

I can't pretend to understand what the fuck is with the whole genderqueer, genderfluid, agender, non-binary shit going on. I don't know what's going on in their heads. Transgender I can understand. As much as this would piss off tumblr feminists, I think men and women's brains are a bit different and I can see trans as being having one brain and the other body. Asexual means you have a low or non-existent sex drive. Ect. But then I see a billion different labels for whatever gender or sexual preferences you have, and all of them coming from Tumblr (no surprise there, that place being a neo-feminist cesspool). I listen to far-far-right podcasts where the guys say that liberals are racist and point to "they have to label everyone, everyone has to have their own special label and category, and you have to be a certain way if you're labeled that way. And FB has 52 gender identities. And conservatives are the racist ones?"

First off, why must everyone have to have a label for their sexuality or gender identity, and why must there be so many labels? Just so you can feel fucking special? Well, great for you, you're not special. No one is.

Second off, what's up with all this gender fluid, gender queer, non-binary, agender shit? I personally don't understand it, because I don't feel that way myself.

I will say I have theories on what's really going on. I may share them later in the thread. I have noticed that the vast, VAST majority of "gender fluid" people are biologically female. That Kaelin person in the article looks female. I think I only know ONE bio-male who's genderfluid. So, I think it has a lot to do with feminism, tumblr, and stuff like that.

And to end this, I want to say I hate Xir, Zir, because they sound like pronouns for aliens. Let the hate towards me begin.

[major lee snake]

Oh my god, this was a fucking great read.  Thanks for making my day.

[Conker]

From what I gather, genderfluid are people whose gender changes based on the day, mood, phase of the moon, etc. They'll feel like a woman one minute and a man the next. So basically it's like being trans only you match half the time.

Could be wrong of course.

If that IS the case, I suppose I can somewhat wrap my head around it. I do consider myself pretty pro LGBT and whatnot, but there comes a point where bureaucracy fucking sucks and paperwork fucking sucks and just fucking pick one.

Life's hard enough without stressing over which box to check.

[Crazy Lee]

9 minutes ago, Conker said:

From what I gather, genderfluid are people whose gender changes based on the day, mood, phase of the moon, etc. They'll feel like a woman one minute and a man the next. So basically it's like being trans only you match half the time.

I have heard that. But I don't think I fully understand how you can feel female one minute, man the next. Maybe not being gender fluid myself. To me, I feel like myself, and only myself. I am who I am, nothing else. Just a person who happens to have a penis.

In any case, the teen in question is agender or non-binary... they don't feel like either at all which is really odd.

[Gamedog]

"First off, I wonder if there's reason that you have to specify gender on a bank application."

 

me: walks into a bank with fake information

bank: hi... Miss Smith... Is that right?

me: yup, that's right. Can I get the money now please? Name matches and everything

bank: stares at my stubble in confusion 

Bank: sure thing ma'am here you go

[Vae]

Resident genderfluid checking in.
Hello there, children. Sit your asses down, cause Vae gonna teach you some shit about gender identity.

First off, personalities, themselves, are fluid.
Did you like the same foods that you did ten years ago? The same bands? The same things? The same people?
Are you exactly the same person as you were then? Or hell, two years ago? 6 months?
Congratulations, that can also apply to your gender. Your understanding of yourself is something that is adaptable with time.
And while everyone doesn't change that rapidly in themselves, some of us do.

Secondly, the lines between gender aren't as bold as you may think they are.
I grew up with a very loose understanding and application of gender roles. Not because my parents were SJWs or any shit like that (and they were way too old for that gen anyway), but just because they were lax and didn't really abide by those concepts, themselves.
Gender, as a concept, means little to me aside from how you wish to present yourself. If I feel like presenting myself as a guy, I'm going to do so. If I feel like presenting myself as a female, I'm going to do so.
Why I fluctuate in this is probably a combination of different factors, but it's no one else's place to question or determine that, to begin with. What does or doesn't hang between my legs, and whether or not that lines up with how I feel and how I present myself on any given day, simply should not matter to anyone but me, a doctor, or someone who was trying to get into an intimate relationship with me.

The idea of sorting entire groups of people by their genitals, and putting restrictions on that, is weird as shit to begin with.
My state-issued ID has my hair blue in it.
No one issuing that gave a fuck about that factor. That's not a natural color though, is it? So surely I shouldn't be allowed to do that?
But I was.
And I don't see why gender is where people get so hung up on this shit, and not being able to wrap their heads around it. Like it is the end-all be-all, when we've been doing things to alter ourselves and how we present ourselves in numerous ways for centuries now.

I don't particularly agree with neo-pronouns, myself. Space is not a gender. Fae is not a gender. And no, accommodating any and all of those kinds of things, as if they were personal badges to collect is beyond absurd.
But I also don't think a catch-all "agender / prefer not to say / etc" option is so entirely beyond the realms of feasibility, when even people's hormones are sometimes not defined in rigid male / female terms, as it is.

So I just chalk this up as another "I DON'T LIKE THIS BECAUSE I CAN'T CONTROL WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO WITH THEMSELVES WHEN IT DOESN'T INVOLVE ME. WEEEEEH~" issue.

[DevilBear]

... then why not label the boxes as "sex?"

Then again, this is the UK we're talking about. That's too crass a word.

I personally don't give a single flying fuck about these things. Just check a god damn box. Such a trivial detail shouldn't be enough to give someone a conniption fit.

[Clove Darkwave]

It's honestly hard for me to get it either, this sort of back and forth. But maybe that's because my brain doesn't work that way.

I really wish the absurd pronoun shit would stop. Or I don't know stop being applied to transsexuals that'd be cool too.

I wonder if the bank had called it "sex" instead of "gender" on the application if this would be such a big deal.

[Conker]

1 hour ago, Crazy Lee said:

I have heard that. But I don't think I fully understand how you can feel female one minute, man the next. Maybe not being gender fluid myself. To me, I feel like myself, and only myself. I am who I am, nothing else. Just a person who happens to have a penis.

In any case, the teen in question is agender or non-binary... they don't feel like either at all which is really odd.

Eh. I mean, I guess of asexuality can exist then being agender is no different. Hell, I go with the "ace" label and have for some time now. I don't really know how to put any of this into words without maybe sounding like a dumbass, but I do get it as a concept. I mean, androgyny isn't new by any means. Hell, I kind of like that look. Mix the best of both worlds. But I dunno if the agender style and the androgynous style actually overlap at all. I've done little research on any of this.

@Vae

Appreciate that post lots, thank you!

I do believe a lot of things are fluid, be it sexuality, gender, or what have you. Hell, I've questioned those things myself now and then. Humans have a remarkable capacity to be strange and hard to define, which is annoying when your bank wants you to pick a gender, apparently

My little experience with gender fluid came from a web comic I sometime last year. Basically the character would switch as needed, though the change itself was pretty profound--not just changing clothes. If she was a woman, she'd be more apt to walk like one, sway the hips and whatnot. It was all pretty unconscious on her part until it was pointed out. As a guy, he'd be more mannish, though once again, not on purpose. It just happened, came with the clothes maybe.

Or I read that somewhere else and I'm attributing it to a comic. Regardless, it was an interesting take on how this works and how important body language is.

 

[Gamedog]

The issue is that most people whether we like it or not can reliably identify someone's sex based on their appearance, and this is used as a way to identify who a person is. It's a pretty solid way to identify someone, as it can't be changed, disguised, or hidden as easily as hair colour, a beard, eye colour, etc.
Even still, EYE COLOUR is on your driver's license. Why??? Because it's a form of identifier!

[Endless/Nameless]

These people need to get over it and grab their crotches. 

Sound insensitive? I'm sorry. But this shit is about your biology, not how you feel. You can feel as feminine as you want, but if you have a penis, you're physically a male. If you choose to act on how you feel instead and live as the opposite sex, you're free to do so and you have my respect; please don't think you don't because you really do! But these people are asking you for your physical sex; not your psychological gender. If you take an official document, and check off "female", you're lying. If that makes you uncomfortable, well then you'll have to get used to that, because you've chosen to take on a difficult lifestyle. 

And also, think this thought: if something ever happens to you, how are you going to be properly identified if they don't know what sex you are? If a biological female has "male" on all their official documents, and no one is around to list all their tumblr pronouns, you could potentially (emphasis on "potentially") be really screwed. 

3 hours ago, Conker said:

From what I gather, genderfluid are people whose gender changes based on the day, mood, phase of the moon, etc. They'll feel like a woman one minute and a man the next. So basically it's like being trans only you match half the time.

Same thing. If you're genderfluid, fine; live as you please. I respect you, even if I can't understand it. But sorry, deciding you feel like a different gender for the week doesn't fucking change your biology. It's an incredibly unconventional way to live, so you're gonna have to own up to the confusion. 

3 hours ago, Crazy Lee said:

I listen to far-far-right podcasts where the guys say that liberals are racist and point to "they have to label everyone, everyone has to have their own special label and category, and you have to be a certain way if you're labeled that way. And FB has 52 gender identities. And conservatives are the racist ones?"

This is incredibly true. All this shit is just making society more and more fragmented. If you see a black person, you should simply see a fellow human being. But if you've been caught in the SJW crossfire, you're going to see them as a category, a minority, someone you might offend, someone whose culture you mustn't appropriate, someone with their own goddamn history month—someone distant and separate. No matter how much they may believe that they're promoting equality, they're just making racism easier.

Or to put it another way, they're promoting tolerance. Not that we're all equals who should just get along, but that were all categories to be tolerated. Yay.  

[Gamedog]

Just wanna pop in and say that gender dysmorphia disorder isn't a lifestyle choice, it's a disorder.

That being said, there isn't any real way to get around this other than to just sign what your sex is. Yes, there's issues with this, but in the current time they will not accept "today I'm male, tomorrow I might be female" as a solid way of identification. If you are unable or unwilling to check off your sex (birth sex or otherwise), then you won't get a bank account.

[Endless/Nameless]

3 minutes ago, Gamedog said:

Just wanna pop in and say that gender dysmorphia disorder isn't a lifestyle choice, it's a disorder.

That may be so, but you still have to make the choice to act on it. 

But that's semantics. 

[Clove Darkwave]

10 minutes ago, Endless/Nameless said:

That may be so, but you still have to make the choice to act on it. 

But that's semantics. 

That's...not as much of a choice as you think. Some choose repression and then transition in their 40s-50s when their mind breaks, and that's...well not as effective.

[Endless/Nameless]

Just now, Clove Darkwave said:

That's...not as much of a choice as you think. Some choose repression and then transition in their 40s-50s when their mind breaks, and that's...well not as effective.

Like I said, semantics; deciding to act on anything constitutes a choice. I'm not saying it's an easy one, or a simple one, or even one you have much of a say in. I'm just trying to be concise in my words. 

Really not trying to step on any toes.  

[Clove Darkwave]

7 minutes ago, Endless/Nameless said:

Like I said, semantics; deciding to act on anything constitutes a choice. I'm not saying it's an easy one, or a simple one, or even one you have much of a say in. I'm just trying to be concise in my words. 

Really not trying to step on any toes.  

It's alright, I get you.

There's no simple solution to all of this really. It's not like you can put a "Prefer not to say" option for a bank. I mean maybe you could, not as versed on banking.

[willow]

the way I see it, unless you've legally made that switch, legal documents need to reflect whatever is on your driver's license or other documents. that being said, it bothers me when people put gender on applications when they really mean sex. I get it's not something people actively think about, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't confuse me on what they're actually asking for. so I usually opt out of that question if I can.

3 hours ago, Clove Darkwave said:

 

I wonder if the bank had called it "sex" instead of "gender" on the application if this would be such a big deal

unless the thought of having to reveal their birth sex gives them some horrible anxiety and they haven't made some legal switch to match their identity, I doubt it.

[Spot]

So you have to specify your gender to apply for a bank account.

Oh no's, the repression!

Get over it, we have to state nonsensical information on most "important" documentation we sign. If you think it is a breach of your civil liberties/rights, just ask what it is they use that information for. At least then you'll get some peace of mind... 

[Kinharia]

As a person who identifies as Genderfluid, I am with the majority in saying "If the option for other isn't there just tick your fucking biological sex"

 

This teen has proven that they are not mature enough to handle adult life yet, it sucks, most people hate it, learn to deal with it.

9 hours ago, Crazy Lee said:

I think I only know ONE bio-male who's genderfluid. So, I think it has a lot to do with feminism, tumblr, and stuff like that.

You now know of two bio-males who identify there

[Fantasma]

 

Genderfluid is just a result of not building up walls and divisions between the two, and fluctuations in hormones.

It's a real thing, even thought it functions differently than being transgender and is hopefully much less painful.

None of these things are really choices, because when the choice is to build a wall to fill the empty spaces or truly find what makes you happy... only one of these is the right choice. One leads to disaster and high suicide rates.

 

[Crazy Lee]

Just a clarification. I don't have a huge problem with genderfluid, gender queer, non-binary, agender, or whatever spectrum you fall under. Be whatever you want. Whatever. However, I do think that, considering that people like that are a very tiny part of the general population, it's going to be hard to convince people to give special treatment to such a small group of people like the person in the article above, who seemed to be demanding special treatment. For the moment, until something changes, just pick a box and stick with it.

On 5/3/2016 at 9:53 PM, Vae said:

First off, personalities, themselves, are fluid.
Did you like the same foods that you did ten years ago? The same bands? The same things? The same people?
Are you exactly the same person as you were then? Or hell, two years ago? 6 months?
 

Yes, but those are long term changes. Those take a long time to change. Not changing from day to day.
 

Quote

Gender, as a concept, means little to me aside from how you wish to present yourself. If I feel like presenting myself as a guy, I'm going to do so. If I feel like presenting myself as a female, I'm going to do so.
 

So you like "Dressing" and "acting" like a male one day and a female another day, or even inbetween or neither, do you actually FEEL like a male, or FEEL like a female. Because I'm not exactly sure how one would feel a female or male.

Quote

 how I feel and how I present myself on any given day, simply should not matter to anyone but me, 

Question though. How do I know what pronouns to use at an given time? I guess that's one thing I've always wondered. I know some genderfluid hate the use of "they" and others hate those "xir/zir" pronouns....

Quote

The idea of sorting entire groups of people by their genitals, and putting restrictions on that, is weird as shit to begin with.
 

Sorting everyone by their genitals does make sense to some extent when it comes to biological related things. Men and women have different bodies. Clothes fit differently. Women tend to be a bit weaker physically than men, and have more fat. Women menstruate. Women have breasts (some men do too lel). So, some things have to be done differently due to body differences. But I agree that you shouldn't put restrictions based on genitals. Or expect people to act or be a certain way because of them.

 

On 5/3/2016 at 10:24 PM, Conker said:

Eh. I mean, I guess of asexuality can exist then being agender is no different. Hell, I go with the "ace" label and have for some time now.

Ace is asexual, which means you don't have a sex drive, or a very weak sex drive? That could probably be attributed to low hormones, or a brain that just isn't wired to be interested in mating/having relationships.

 

13 hours ago, Johanna Waya said:

Genderfluid is just a result of not building up walls and divisions between the two, and fluctuations in hormones.

Could it be that people feel genderfluid because their hormones might be different from day to day? Hmm. That is a possibility.

 

Now here's a thought and theory on what being genderfluid is about, and correct me if I'm wrong you guys... @Vae, @Kinharia, @Johanna Waya...

Throughout history society and culture has differentiated the sexes into distinct roles. Men should be masculine, aggressive, strong, violent. Women should be meek, sensitive, emotional, motherly. In current western culture, men watch sports, drink beer, shoot guns, wear pants. Women wear dresses, sew, work as nurses, raise the kids. The man makes the money, plays with action figures, the woman stays at home, likes dolls, pink, shoes, shopping. Of course, some cultures are different. But the thing is, dependent on your genitals, you are expected to be a certain way, act a certain way, dress a certain way. IE confirm to a certain gender identity.

And I at least see the gender fluid movement as people who are bio-male or bio-female saying that they aren't going to conform to those gender expectations. They're just going to be the way they want to be. One day they might be masculine feeling, the other day feminine feeling. It doesn't mean your biology changes but how you fit in the gender norms of society. Is this how it is, or am I getting it wrong?

I'm just not sure, if you really feel "male" one day or "female" another day, how you feel different each day. I don't feel male or female, I just feel myself.

I think the best way to fix this though is to not have gender norms in the first place. Instead of expecting males and females to act a certain way, they can act however they want. Get rid of gender conformity and gender roles altogether.

[LazerMaster5]

 

[Vallium]

Chiming in seeing as I also made yet another recent gender thread

 

If youre going to throw an SJW fit tantrum over a stupid form or document, especially one that is legally binding, youre an idiot. Being transfluidqueer doesnt make you special and worthy of being demanding

 

Like seriously, I think ordinarily most people who are trans, even if they hate it and it sucks, are very used to being misgendered on a regular basis and will most likely overlook or ignore wrong pronoun usage for the sake of civility/sanity if the situation isnt something that can call for them to politely state otherwise.

 

At least thats what I do. If a paper gives you an option to decline to answer or state otherwise then thats one thing but sometimes you have to bite the bullet, get the hell over it, and act like an adult. Essentially what Kinharia stated

[Kinharia]

@Crazy Lee I honestly don't know, I think there is some merit to the hormone problem. I've noticed that a lot of people on the autistic spectrum (yes our brains are wired different to typically normal people) identify with agender or genderfluid, it could be down to a lot of biological and mental differences. I'm not smart enough to understand it I just feel the most comfortable with that label.

 

Also there are people out there who love labels, we find them to be more helpful than harmful (as some people I assume find it)

[Toshabi]

I currently have a:

Penis: [☆]

Vagina: [    ]

Fucked Up Alien Organs: [    ]

[Sidewalk Surfboard]

Just now, Toshabi said:

I currently have a:

Penis: [     ]

Vagina: [    ]

Fucked Up Alien Organs: [ ☆ ]

FTFY

[Toshabi]

Just now, Sidewalk Surfboard said:

FTFY

NOT ALL CROCS HAVE SNAKE PENIS OKAAAAAY?????

[Dr. Doggo]

i am tolerant of those who identify as genderfluid, so long as they don't spill it everywhere

[Yarra]

What I don't get is why this hasn't been a mainstream issue for the last few thousand years until Obama took office.  Is Big Food putting more toxins in our food or are vaccines screwing us all up more than they used to?  Seriously.  

[Saxon]

Selecting a gender on a bank account application form must feel so violating. :V

 

No sympathy. Suck it up.

[Crazy Lee]

16 minutes ago, Toshabi said:

I currently have a:

Penis: [    ]

Vagina: [    ]

Fucked Up Alien Organs: [    ]

Hentai Tentacles: [ ☆ ]

 

[Sarcastic Coffeecup]

I don't give a much of a damn about gender dysphoria, but it gets on my nerves with so many people.

I blame the internet. This wasn't such big a thing a couple of decades ago. There were various types of men, various sorts of women around too. Now with the internet and this whole PC thing people realized that hey, I can come up with a label for my specific charasteristics and everybody has to do as I say or they're assholes and I'm basically the best person alive. Now it can't be just male or female of a various ranges of personalities that cover both sexes because I can't be a male or female cause that's too normal. Do these people think that the average cisgendered person thinks "Wow fuck yes, I feel like a 100% man now, just like two minutes ago hell yeah. I think I'll crack open a beer to celebrate and watch football (The real football, not handegg)", because it feels like the internet wants to label men as this stereotype and any male who differs from this needs a new label. Same applies to women.

It's comparable to calling a salamander a lizard, or saying that you're blue instead of aquamarine but because it's not the most exact name for it you get offended. Fuck off with that thinking.

Call me a conservative thinker but fucking hell I think this has gotten out of hand. There are legit people who have dysphoria and I don't mean to belittle those, but this whole jazz is a fashion statement and nothing else for MANY people on tumblr and wherever they roam and it's taking a real issue and making it trivial.

[Saxon]

1 minute ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

I don't give a much of a damn about gender dysphoria, but it gets on my nerves with so many people.

I blame the internet. This wasn't such big a thing a couple of decades ago. There were various types of men, various sorts of women around too. Now with the internet and this whole PC thing people realized that hey, I can come up with a label for my specific charasteristics and everybody has to do as I say or they're assholes and I'm basically the best person alive. Now it can't be just male or female of a various ranges of personalities that cover both sexes because I can't be a male or female cause that's too normal. Do these people think that the average cisgendered person thinks "Wow fuck yes, I feel like a 100% man now, just like two minutes ago hell yeah. I think I'll crack open a beer to celebrate and watch football (The real football, not handegg)", because it feels like the internet wants to label men as this stereotype and any male who differs from this needs a new label. Same applies to women.

It's comparable to calling a salamander a lizard, or saying that you're blue instead of aquamarine but because it's not the most exact name for it you get offended. Fuck off with that thinking.

Call me a conservative thinker but fucking hell I think this has gotten out of hand. There are legit people who have dysphoria and I don't mean to belittle those, but this whole jazz is a fashion statement and nothing else for MANY people on tumblr and wherever they roam and it's taking a real issue and making it trivial.

This is the generation which is going to have to deal with the impacts of climate change.

Bacon's going to fry.

[Toshabi]

25 minutes ago, Saxon said:

This is the generation which is going to have to deal with the impacts of climate change.

Bacon's going to fry.

What is the climate change is just the weather being more climate fluid, ie "Today I feel more Summer instead of Winter"?

#ClimatesChoice

[TrishaCat]

I don't intend to mean anything bad by it when I say it, but I don't really understand the concept of gender in the sense that a lot of people use it. Genderfluidity and transgenderness are foreign concepts to me. As in, what does it mean when one says they feel like another gender? As far as I'm aware, men and women are mostly the same, right? (excepting some biological differences of course) So, if men and women are mostly the same, then how does one feel like one gender or another? Is it with regards to things like gender roles? Or is it something else entirely? I've tried to understand for some time, and its difficult for me to follow.

Some people have mentioned that it IS a gender roles thing (or at least part of it), but gender roles are social constructs, right? Things that aren't technically true, just ideas people made upj. What is perceived to be masculine and feminine change over time. And even then, men sometimes do "feminine" things and women sometimes do "masculine" things. So I figured that gender roles aren't really important, and that people should just act/do what they want. 

So, I guess what I'm asking is, is what IS gender, and what does it mean to people? How does it hold importance in one's life?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Battlechili said:

I don't intend to mean anything bad by it when I say it, but I don't really understand the concept of gender in the sense that a lot of people use it. Genderfluidity and transgenderness are foreign concepts to me. As in, what does it mean when one says they feel like another gender? As far as I'm aware, men and women are mostly the same, right? (excepting some biological differences of course) So, if men and women are mostly the same, then how does one feel like one gender or another? Is it with regards to things like gender roles? Or is it something else entirely? I've tried to understand for some time, and its difficult for me to follow.

Some people have mentioned that it IS a gender roles thing (or at least part of it), but gender roles are social constructs, right? Things that aren't technically true, just ideas people made upj. What is perceived to be masculine and feminine change over time. And even then, men sometimes do "feminine" things and women sometimes do "masculine" things. So I figured that gender roles aren't really important, and that people should just act/do what they want. 

So, I guess what I'm asking is, is what IS gender, and what does it mean to people? How does it hold importance in one's life?

the way its been explained to me is this:
If you woke up with a vag (assuming you have a penis), you'd feel wrong, right? Or if you went outside in a dress, heels, your hair done up in makeup- because you think of yourself as a guy, dressing up as a lady would either be a joke to you or you'd feel really uncomfortable and everyone would be staring at you. Assuming you follow the binary gender definitions, What a "boy" wears and what a "girl" wears are two completely different things for you. That "weirdness" fades as you wear boy clothes because in your mind, it says, "I have a penis. I dress like a dude. I am a dude in my head and in my body"

A trans person is, "I dress like a girl. I have a penis. I am a girl in my head and a man in my body" (assuming the person has dysphoria, which is the word that describes that "weird" feeling. It can vary in person to person. For instance, some trans folks go the whole guacamole and get as much surgery as possible to look like the gender they want to show as, and others are more in the middle. That goopy bit in the middle of the spectrum of "boy" in one side and "girl" in another side is called "genderfluidity"; where your mind doesn't really align to something at any given moment. 

[Vae]

21 hours ago, Crazy Lee said:

Yes, but those are long term changes. Those take a long time to change. Not changing from day to day.

It depends on the person, really. I've known people who do have rapid changes like that from day to day, and have experienced that in various aspects of my life from time to time.
Although genderfluid doesn't strictly have to refer to a day-to-day basis. It can also be switching over longer periods of time, as long as it fluctuates.
I remember identifying as a male online (because I didn't feel secure / safe enough to do so in person, in the area I grew up in) for a few years in highschool.
 

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So you like "Dressing" and "acting" like a male one day and a female another day, or even inbetween or neither, do you actually FEEL like a male, or FEEL like a female. Because I'm not exactly sure how one would feel a female or male.

There's a physicality aspect to it as well. Otherwise, I wouldn't wear my binder inside, when I'm by myself.
If you've never had gender issues, it's a bit hard to describe.
 

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Question though. How do I know what pronouns to use at an given time? I guess that's one thing I've always wondered. I know some genderfluid hate the use of "they" and others hate those "xir/zir" pronouns..

I actually don't expect people to keep up with how I feel in my head. That's why I let them use whatever pronouns they feel like using for me, until or if I settle on one end of the spectrum entirely.
In which case, either dropping the male aspect entirely, or starting HRT.

A lot use "she," because that's what they associate my physical appearance with.
Some use "he."
Some use "they."
I'm fine with whichever.

I do feel like expecting someone to automatically address you as your gender for that day, and getting mad if they don't, is pretty fucking ridiculous. That kind of mentality shows a clear disregard for courtesy towards others, and a lack of understanding of the fact that they're not goddamned psychics.
But "they" is usually a safe bet for fluids or agenders or what have you, if there are unclear definitions.
And if they have a problem with that, too, well... then you probably just have a whiny little bitch on your hands. : /

I also hate those xixixir/xexexe/fae pronouns, so no argument there.
 

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Sorting everyone by their genitals does make sense to some extent when it comes to biological related things. Men and women have different bodies. Clothes fit differently. Women tend to be a bit weaker physically than men, and have more fat. Women menstruate. Women have breasts (some men do too lel). So, some things have to be done differently due to body differences. But I agree that you shouldn't put restrictions based on genitals. Or expect people to act or be a certain way because of them.

That's why I said that medical reasons are an exception.
Clothing can variate. I have no problems wearing men's clothing, despite having a female body. In fact, a lot actually look better on me than a lot of female clothes. Despite having very prominent curves.

The strength thing also variates. But that also comes from my personal observance.
 

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Could it be that people feel genderfluid because their hormones might be different from day to day? Hmm. That is a possibility.

This is also a possibility, but I assume a lot of gender-related issues are caused by hormone disparities from what's "normal" for men and women.
 

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Now here's a thought and theory on what being genderfluid is about, and correct me if I'm wrong you guys... @Vae, @Kinharia, @Johanna Waya...

Throughout history society and culture has differentiated the sexes into distinct roles. Men should be masculine, aggressive, strong, violent. Women should be meek, sensitive, emotional, motherly. In current western culture, men watch sports, drink beer, shoot guns, wear pants. Women wear dresses, sew, work as nurses, raise the kids. The man makes the money, plays with action figures, the woman stays at home, likes dolls, pink, shoes, shopping. Of course, some cultures are different. But the thing is, dependent on your genitals, you are expected to be a certain way, act a certain way, dress a certain way. IE confirm to a certain gender identity.

And I at least see the gender fluid movement as people who are bio-male or bio-female saying that they aren't going to conform to those gender expectations. They're just going to be the way they want to be. One day they might be masculine feeling, the other day feminine feeling. It doesn't mean your biology changes but how you fit in the gender norms of society. Is this how it is, or am I getting it wrong?

The lines between gender and the application of gender roles basically didn't apply to a lot of my life growing up.
I was never expected to be "the girl." I went hunting. I went camping. I rolled around in the dirt. I collected bugs. I punched people for kicks. I had a shitload of dinosaurs and trucks and assorted things as a child.
But I also wore dresses and went shopping and put on makeup and had barbie dolls and the works.

The only thing I did not do was address myself directly as male, publicly, because transgenderism isn't even a thing you hear about where I came from. And furthermore, kids gave me years' worth of shit just for stating I didn't know if a god exists. God forbid they think "ewwww she feels like a boy, I bet she spies on people in the bathroom!"
Which, yes, would have been the conclusion those kinds of people would have drawn. Because that's what happens with you live in towns of 2000 people.

I can put on a dress and still feel like a dude.
Hell, I wore makeup and a purse today, and went shopping, and still felt like a dude. Granted, I didn't actually present, because I didn't want awkward questions from my sole mode of transportation.

So it runs quite a bit deeper than that.
 

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I'm just not sure, if you really feel "male" one day or "female" another day, how you feel different each day. I don't feel male or female, I just feel myself.

I think the best way to fix this though is to not have gender norms in the first place. Instead of expecting males and females to act a certain way, they can act however they want. Get rid of gender conformity and gender roles altogether.

The closest way I can describe this to someone who doesn't have gender issues is...

Okay, you associate yourself with a name, yeah?
You were given a name at birth. You didn't choose it. It's just there, and it's stuck with you.

However, some people associate themselves with different names over time. Sure, you might be born a "David," but everyone calls you "Spence."
Spence is what you know.
Spence is how you see yourself.

Some people would be fine with David. And that's cool. I'm fine using my birth name IRL too.
But some people actually go out of their way to get their name legally changed. That's an option that you have, and it ties into your identity and how you feel about yourself.

Gender is a lot harder to change, granted.
But it's very similar.
It plays into who you are and how you identify with yourself.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Vae
NO EMOTICONS. BAD EMOTICONS.

[AshleyAshes]

Some people in this thread are FAR too concerned with the choices made in the lives of other people.

[Toshabi]

7 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Some people in this thread are FAR too concerned with the choices made in the lives of other people.

And you're too concerned about what others are concerned with.

[Terminal7]

2 hours ago, AshleyAshes said:

Some people in this thread are FAR too concerned with the choices made in the lives of other people.

Ironically...

(I was in agreement)

Edited May 5, 2016 by Terminal7

[Troj]

Honestly, I'd like to know why, specifically, the bank wants to know your gender, and if they can accomplish the same goal(s) by collecting some other type of personal information.

I can understand the hospital caring about this, because your biological sex has some bearing on what medical issues you might experience.

If you want to know someone's gender for marketing purposes, or for the purpose of identity-theft-prevention, then you can probably ask a different type of question to get the same results.

Personally, I'd just mark my biological sex and go on with my day, but I don't have pronounced gender dysphoria, and I'm conflict-averse and go-with-the-flow as a general (but not absolute) rule.

In fact, couldn't the bank just ask "sex" instead of "gender?" If this sort of dilemma becomes commonplace, I imagine you could request both sex and gender, theoretically.

[AshleyAshes]

4 minutes ago, Troj said:

Honestly, I'd like to know why, specifically, the bank wants to know your gender

Clearly they can't just have you sign up for an account without deciding if you get the free pink toaster or the free blue toaster!  It's like, CRITICAL to the operation!

[Spot]

2 hours ago, AshleyAshes said:

Some people in this thread are FAR too concerned with the choices made in the lives of other people.

What does irony taste like? Because you must be drowning in it.

[Troj]

Who wouldn't want the stuffed collie plush?

(Is there a way to combine drinking coffee with cuddling a stuffed animal? Because I do enjoy both.)

[Spot]

1 minute ago, Troj said:

Who wouldn't want the stuffed collie plush?

(Is there a way to combine drinking coffee with cuddling a stuffed animal? Because I do enjoy both.)

Yup, use a drink bottle.

[Troj]

Are there fuzzy plushie drink mug covers?

Did I just invent a thing here?

[Troj]

Well, good. I was worried for a minute there ;).

My stuffed aardvark enjoys coffee with me every morning.

[Crazy Lee]

5 hours ago, Sarcastic Coffeecup said:

I don't give a much of a damn about gender dysphoria, but it gets on my nerves with so many people.

I blame the internet. This wasn't such big a thing a couple of decades ago.

What, the whole tumblr thing, or gender dysphoria/transgender thing in general?
Homosexuality has been around since forever. Only recently has it become a major thing in western society. It's possible people may have been trans or gender fluid for the whole of human history but had no label to describe how they felt. Or were too fearful to come out as how they felt until recently.

[AshleyAshes]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Lee said:

What, the whole tumblr thing, or gender dysphoria/transgender thing in general?
Homosexuality has been around since forever. Only recently has it become a major thing in western society. It's possible people may have been trans or gender fluid for the whole of human history but had no label to describe how they felt. Or were too fearful to come out as how they felt until recently.

How is it that you flip flop between well thought out posts and outright shitmongering hate speech in the same thread?  PICK ONE.

[Crazy Lee]

16 minutes ago, 6tails said:

This is far closer to the truth than you realize.

Signing up for an account here, they want to know your gender, so they know which gift to give you (a coffee mug, or a stuffed collie plush) as a welcome gift.

See there's that gender role assumption thing again. Assuming men always want the mug and women always want the plush.

What if I want both you assholes?!

1 minute ago, AshleyAshes said:

How is it that you flip flop between well thought out posts and outright shitmongering hate speech in the same thread?  PICK ONE.

SO WHAT IF I WANT TO SHIT POST SOMETIMES DAMMIT DON'T JUDGE ME OR KINKSHAME ME.... *sob*