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2 hours ago, Falaffel said:

also leave

Wahhhh 

You are a bitter person and you cannot debate, if you do not have anything constructive to say aside from making posts like this, please leave.

 

👏👏👏👏👏

 

pleaze friends lets let's get back to discussing why criminals should continue to roam the streets but only if they are black

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Oh Baby don't you wanna go

back to that sweet old place

sweet home Shitcago 

 

Black Lives Matter but only if they're taken by a xop

please ignore my child with a replica gun tucked into his waistband like a gangster there is no problem with gang violence in my community and I don't know where my kid learned to do this from, he a good boy

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46 minutes ago, Gamedog said:

Oh Baby don't you wanna go

back to that sweet old place

sweet home Shitcago 

 

Black Lives Matter but only if they're taken by a xop

please ignore my child with a replica gun tucked into his waistband like a gangster there is no problem with gang violence in my community and I don't know where my kid learned to do this from, he a good boy

Are you having a stroke?

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One thing that's been weighing on me, when it's a black guy and people assume the shooting was racially motivated it gets world-wide coverage and there are riots in the street. 

When the slain individual is a 50 something year old mentally ill white man being evicted from his home most people don't even hear about it. http://www.statesville.com/news/virginia-avenue-shooting-victim-led-quiet-life/article_b4069c42-bf10-11e5-83ff-1fa554ed1c32.html


The facebook comments below the article are pretty telling. I'm not going to say the police were unjustified, the man reportedly had a knife and failure to drop your weapon is a guaranteed ticket to getting your ass shot by a cop. The police were doing their job as they'd been trained to do it, no more, no less. But overall, aside from a few people expressing grievances no one batted an eyelid or felt the need to wonder if something is wrong with the way we train police. 

http://myfox8.com/2016/07/22/deputies-wont-face-charges-in-todd-burroughs-shooting/
Another case no one really cared about. I also won't say the shooting here was unjustified either though no one really questions whether the police actually did exhaust other methods before opening fire.  

In the cases of both NC men shot neither had a firearm though both were definitely armed and refused to drop their weapons.

Likewise with the deaf man who was shot, there was no national outrage and no real reaction beyond some head shaking. The police's use of deadly force only REALLY comes into question if people believe it was racially motivated. 

http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/new-revelations-in-keith-scott-case_/326706427

Scott definitely had a gun. 

 But back on topic. These incidents, not a single one of them would have justified the riot that went down in charlotte, not in any way. That riot? That riot wasn't about shit. It was about using an opportunity to get back at whitey and to rip off stores. It was about stirring shit up. THAT'S ALL. The problem is people claiming the riot is justified as "burning down the plantation" when most of the rioters don't even live there, when they came and terrorized a community that wasn't even theirs. They didn't go after the police, they went after civilians, they went after money and property. 

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1 hour ago, Red Lion said:

But back on topic. These incidents, not a single one of them would have justified the riot that went down in charlotte, not in any way. That riot? That riot wasn't about shit. It was about using an opportunity to get back at whitey and to rip off stores. It was about stirring shit up. THAT'S ALL. The problem is people claiming the riot is justified as "burning down the plantation" when most of the rioters don't even live there, when they came and terrorized a community that wasn't even theirs. They didn't go after the police, they went after civilians, they went after money and property. 

While he's neither Black God nor a person I wholly agree with, I'm just going to keep quoting Dr. King because he is a much better orator and writer than I am. He's also treated as "the good black" from his time, so his words hold some power that I believe they don't necessarily ought to have.

He speaks pretty well on why riots are immoral but are justified, reasonable, and expected in things like his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" and his speech to the American Psychological Association. 

On outside agitators:

Quote

Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds.

On why riots are to be expected:

Quote

Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions... A profound judgment of today's riots was expressed by Victor Hugo a century ago. He said, 'If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.' The policymakers of the white society have caused the darkness; they create discrimination; they structured slums; and they perpetuate unemployment, ignorance and poverty.

On riots in Detroit:

Quote

The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights. There are thus elements of emotional catharsis in the violent act... It is also noteworthy that the amount of physical harm done to white people other than police is infinitesimal and in Detroit whites and Negroes looted in unity.

King meant that the physical harm was infinitesimal in comparison to "the plight of the Negro," to clarify that bit.

Because of that, it is also important to note that King didn't just want the Civil Rights Act and felt that Civil Rights was more than just an issue of improper social treatment for blacks. For example, King was starting a new Civil Rights campaign to target "the evils of capitalism" that was called "The Poor People's Campaign" and would target the injustices caused by capitalism that impact poor whites and most blacks. He was assassinated shortly before starting a "Poor People's March on Washington" that was going to do things like demand a universal basic income to help unemployed whites survive and reparations to put blacks on an equal footing that had been denied them by law.

Quote

At the very same time that America refused to give the Negro any land, through an act of Congress, our government was giving away millions of acres of land in the West and the mid-West, which meant that it was willing to undergird its White peasants from Europe with an economic floor. But not only did they give the land, they built land grant colleges with government money to teach them how to farm. Not only that, they provided county agents to further their expertise in farming. Not only that, they provided low interest rates in order that they could mechanize their farms. Not only that, today many of these people are receiving millions of dollars in federal subsidies not to farm. And they are the very people telling the Black man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps. And this is what we are faced with. Now this is the reality. Now when we come to Washington, in this campaign, we are coming to get our check.

Somehow a whole bunch of prominent people in the Civil Rights Movement started getting arrested on odd charges, quite a number were assassinated, and several suddenly dropped dead right after they started the campaign. No idea why.

No idea at all.

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14 minutes ago, MalletFace said:

While he's neither Black God nor a person I wholly agree with, I'm just going to keep quoting Dr. King because he is a much better orator and writer than I am. He's also treated as "the good black" from his time, so his words hold some power that I believe they don't necessarily ought to have.

He speaks pretty well on why riots are immoral but are justified, reasonable, and expected in things like his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" and his speech to the American Psychological Association. 

On outside agitators:

On why riots are to be expected:

On riots in Detroit:

King meant that the physical harm was infinitesimal in comparison to "the plight of the Negro," to clarify that bit.

Because of that, it is also important to note that King didn't just want the Civil Rights Act and felt that Civil Rights was more than just an issue of improper social treatment for blacks. For example, King was starting a new Civil Rights campaign to target "the evils of capitalism" that was called "The Poor People's Campaign" and would target the injustices caused by capitalism that impact poor whites and most blacks. He was assassinated shortly before starting a "Poor People's March on Washington" that was going to do things like demand a universal basic income to help unemployed whites survive and reparations to put blacks on an equal footing that had been denied them by law.

Somehow a whole bunch of prominent people in the Civil Rights Movement started getting arrested on odd charges, quite a number were assassinated, and several suddenly dropped dead right after they started the campaign. No idea why.

No idea at all.

This is actually making me think less of MLK as a leader TBH. I appreciate the perspective, but it's not doing a thing to change my mind about what went on in Charlotte. /:

I emphatically do not agree with the idea that  "Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds." When these rioters leave, they will go home, to their own communities which will be as they left them and the people in Charlotte will be left to try and clean up the mess. 

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33 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

I do not agree with the idea that  "Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds." When these rioters leave, they will go home, to their own communities which will be as they left them and the people in Charlotte will be left to try and clean up the mess. 

King was told that he was an outside agitator promoting violence and law-breaking. According to his detractors - including those outside of the clergy to whom King directed his open letter - none of the actions he made that disturbed their peace would hurt him when he returns home. If action is to be taken, they suggested, it should be by the local community and totally invested in maintaining as much of the status quo as possible.

King responded by noting that

  • he was invited by locals,
  • they had done nothing themselves,
  • nothing would change without crisis,
  • one has a moral (Christian) obligation to combat injustice,
  • injustice is not an isolated problem
  • the status quo is not sacred,
  • police will act to defend their interests and unjust laws,
  • police that defend their interests and unjust laws harm others, and
  • (earthly) laws are not sacred.

He actually defends himself pretty well when I don't have to cut it down real small. Its a long letter.

4 minutes ago, Gamedog said:

expensive basketball shoes 

I can't even justify buying those. I could never justify stealing them.

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2 hours ago, MalletFace said:

King was told that he was an outside agitator promoting violence and law-breaking. According to his detractors - including those outside of the clergy to whom King directed his open letter - none of the actions he made that disturbed their peace would hurt him when he returns home. If action is to be taken, they suggested, it should be by the local community and totally invested in maintaining as much of the status quo as possible.

King responded by noting that

  • he was invited by locals,
  • they had done nothing themselves,
  • nothing would change without crisis,
  • one has a moral (Christian) obligation to combat injustice,
  • injustice is not an isolated problem
  • the status quo is not sacred,
  • police will act to defend their interests and unjust laws,
  • police that defend their interests and unjust laws harm others, and
  • (earthly) laws are not sacred.

He actually defends himself pretty well when I don't have to cut it down real small. Its a long letter.

I can't even justify buying those. I could never justify stealing them.

Even taking this into consideration, the community tried to hold their own protests and community leaders asked for peace and an end to the rioting. No one invited outside parties to come in and create chaos. People are even speculating that they may have been rioting to make BLM look bad or to further stir up racial tensions (which I myself wouldn't rule out though I don't feel confident enough to say that's the truth of it). I also don't know how much of King's particular situation can be applied to the riots in Charlotte considering that even among the black community BLM is really divisive with no one truly being united in their ideas of what the problem is and how to fix it. The violence and destruction wasn't aimed at the police or the government, it hit places like a local walmart, shops and innocent civilians. I cannot in good conscience ever view that as justified.

This riot started before all of the evidence was out because if the victim of a police shooting is black it is taken at face value that it was racially motivated. Regardless of facts that emerge later in the case and regardless of the color of the cop involved. 

 

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I have to preface this by saying I'm not trying to make a direct comparison between Charlotte and Birmingham. There are a lot of things that distance the two.

Just now, Red Lion said:

Even taking this into consideration, the community tried to hold their own protests and community leaders asked for peace and an end to the rioting.

White clergy in Birmingham and the city's new mayor had been calling on the people of Birmingham to stop agitating and acting violently. Violence on both sides had been happening in the city for quite a long time, and riots seemed about to happen.

Members of the black community had been staging their own protests even though the white population and government considered it to be poorly-timed nonsense. Even some of the black community considered any protests at all to be nonsense as there were no real problems. Everything that was going on was constitutional, legal, and moral. Only radicals crazy for social justice thought something was wrong.

14 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

No one invited outside parties to come in and create chaos.

Both the Charlotte chapter of the Loyal White Knights of the KKK and local BLM called upon people to come to Charlotte just as had been done in Birmingham by the local KKK and the Birmingham chapter of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC).

The LWK have since removed their call to arms. I guess somebody in the LWK pointed out that telling members to go armed to Charlotte to defend against "black animals" is technically illegal during a state of emergency.

18 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

People are even speculating that they may have been rioting to make BLM look bad or to further stir up racial tensions (which I myself wouldn't rule out though I don't feel confident enough to say that's the truth of it).

After King arrived in Birmingham, the new mayor suggested - with the support of the clergy and local whites - that those that had arrived in the city had done so "to stir inter-racial discord" in order to ruin it for blacks in Birmingham.

People suggesting that the SCLC was a racist organization meant to hurt race relations wasn't that uncommon, either. I have many family members that maintain that it still is.

22 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

I also don't know how much of King's particular situation can be applied to the riots in Charlotte considering that even among the black community BLM is really divisive with no one truly being united in their ideas of what the problem is and how to fix it.

Because so much progress had been made in Birmingham - that 'progress' is none at all in hindsight - local black leaders suggested that the SCLC was too unclear in its goals and methods to really help the black community. One of them, a lawyer, wrote a rather popular Time article about how he felt the SCLC was not the right solution and was only going to worsen things.

Not all blacks - and few whites - supported the SCLC. It was a really new organization. and its leadership was iffy.

38 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

The violence and destruction wasn't aimed at the police or the government, it hit places like a local walmart, shops and innocent civilians. I cannot in good conscience ever view that as justified.

Justified does not necessarily mean moral, and King was clear in that distinction. He felt that riots were deplorable evils, but he suggested that a riot is not without cause or reason, and the cause of riots must be many times more evil to cause such a desperate thing.

That was his moral argument, but he also suggested that the evils that cause riots were compounding racism, classicism, and militarism. Because he was so confident in his ideas, he called on social scientists to study riots and the socioeconomic conditions behind them in a speech to the APA.

The APA has actually publicly suggested several times that the socioeconomic conditions King pointed out in many of his speeches are good predictors for urban violence like riots.

53 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

This riot started before all of the evidence was out because if the victim of a police shooting is black it is taken at face value that it was racially motivated. Regardless of facts that emerge later in the case and regardless of the color of the cop involved. 

Bombings were had in Birmingham after King arrived. Many blacks suggested that it had been white cops or the KKK targeting members of the SCLC, but the local government urged people to wait until the facts were in and stay calm. Some of the government was suggesting that it was black individuals - even black Muslims - that had committed the crimes to worsen racial divides. Shouldn't you not riot if it actually was black men that did this?

Nope. Riots occurred that started with protesters blocking cops from moving at the scenes and ranged from throwing rocks at cars to burning white goods.

It wasn't until after rioting had started that it was revealed that it was indeed white men responsible for the bombings, too.

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More evidence released. 

Beating his wife and child and threatening to shoot them and kill them. You can see photos of his gun, ankle holster, and the restraining orders that show that his wife and child feared for their lives after being beaten by him and threatened with death. 

His gun was bought from someone who did a B&E and stole the gun. His wife also mentioned his gun and the type of gun in was in the restraining order. Hitting an 8 year old three times in the face with his fist. The more I learn about this guy the more I wonder how anyone can have sympathy for him at all.  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3808803/Keith-Scott-carrying-stolen-gun-police-say-wife-filed-restraining-order-against-saying-armed-violent-threatened-kill-her.html

It's all in the article with photos and video. 

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6 minutes ago, MalletFace said:

I have to preface this by saying I'm not trying to make a direct comparison between Charlotte and Birmingham. There are a lot of things that distance the two.

White clergy in Birmingham and the city's new mayor had been calling on the people of Birmingham to stop agitating and acting violently. Violence on both sides had been happening in the city for quite a long time, and riots seemed about to happen.

Members of the black community had been staging their own protests even though the white population and government considered it to be poorly-timed nonsense. Even some of the black community considered any protests at all to be nonsense as there were no real problems. Everything that was going on was constitutional, legal, and moral. Only radicals crazy for social justice thought something was wrong.

Both the Charlotte chapter of the Loyal White Knights of the KKK and local BLM called upon people to come to Charlotte just as had been done in Birmingham by the local KKK and the Birmingham chapter of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC).

The LWK have since removed their call to arms. I guess somebody in the LWK pointed out that telling members to go armed to Charlotte to defend against "black animals" is technically illegal during a state of emergency.

After King arrived in Birmingham, the new mayor suggested - with the support of the clergy and local whites - that those that had arrived in the city had done so "to stir inter-racial discord" in order to ruin it for blacks in Birmingham.

People suggesting that the SCLC was a racist organization meant to hurt race relations wasn't that uncommon, either. I have many family members that maintain that it still is.

Because so much progress had been made in Birmingham - that 'progress' is none at all in hindsight - local black leaders suggested that the SCLC was too unclear in its goals and methods to really help the black community. One of them, a lawyer, wrote a rather popular Time article about how he felt the SCLC was not the right solution and was only going to worsen things.

Not all blacks - and few whites - supported the SCLC. It was a really new organization. and its leadership was iffy.

Justified does not necessarily mean moral, and King was clear in that distinction. He felt that riots were deplorable evils, but he suggested that a riot is not without cause or reason, and the cause of riots must be many times more evil to cause such a desperate thing.

That was his moral argument, but he also suggested that the evils that cause riots were compounding racism, classicism, and militarism. Because he was so confident in his ideas, he called on social scientists to study riots and the socioeconomic conditions behind them in a speech to the APA.

The APA has actually publicly suggested several times that the socioeconomic conditions King pointed out in many of his speeches are good predictors for urban violence like riots.

Bombings were had in Birmingham after King arrived. Many blacks suggested that it had been white cops or the KKK targeting members of the SCLC, but the local government urged people to wait until the facts were in and stay calm. Some of the government was suggesting that it was black individuals - even black Muslims - that had committed the crimes to worsen racial divides. Shouldn't you not riot if it actually was black men that did this?

Nope. Riots occurred that started with protesters blocking cops from moving at the scenes and ranged from throwing rocks at cars to burning white goods.

It wasn't until after rioting had started that it was revealed that it was indeed white men responsible for the bombings, too.

I'm amazed the KKK is still allowed to exist honestly. They are an outright hate group and given their violent history I don't understand why they haven't been labeled a domestic terrorist organization or something.

As for the rest of it, I still am not in agreement that the riots are justified. Reasons =/= justification. But I am not one who can comfortably compromise my ethics for "the greater good". But now we're getting into philosophy. Unfortunately I have nothing to add that I haven't already said. I will note that the goods being stolen aren't "white goods" the community in Charlotte isn't directly segregated by race and people hurt by this riot aren't exclusively white.  

Even given a just cause I believe how you try to achieve that goal has some importance. I am not a pacifist. But I think violence should always be a last resort and it should never be directed at people who are not your enemies.  

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1 minute ago, Red Lion said:

I'm amazed the KKK is still allowed to exist honestly. They are an outright hate group and given their violent history I don't understand why they haven't been labeled a domestic terrorist organization or something.

The KKK insurrections laid the foundations for that. 

7 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

I still am not in agreement that the riots are justified. Reasons =/= justification.

I think there's just a disagreement in word choice going on here.

8 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

I will note that the goods being stolen aren't "white goods" the community in Charlotte isn't directly segregated by race and people hurt by this riot aren't exclusively white. 

I meant "white goods" in that it was a grocery owned by a white man that was burned in Birmingham.

The goods burned on I-85 were likely owned by a company ran and owned mostly by white men. It is no secret that Walmart is.

I don't think those were burned and stolen because they were "white goods," though.

18 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

But I think violence should always be a last resort and it should never be directed at people who are not your enemies.  

While he might or might not have called them enemies, King did feel as though anyone not acting directly to solve a problem was part of the problem.

If he did consider those individuals enemies - he at least considered them evil - then I agree with him on that.

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34 minutes ago, Red Lion said:

Even given a just cause I believe how you try to achieve that goal has some importance. I am not a pacifist. But I think violence should always be a last resort and it should never be directed at people who are not your enemies.  

this reminds me of Plato's republic because that text was presented to me in simultaneity with mlk's letter to birmingham (which i think if you want to voice an opinion on blm as a whole, you should read to understand the exact logic behind justice and the response)

when dealing with the approach of his unjust conviction that would lead to his execution, Socrates chose to instead accept his fate instead of attempting to escape. this is where i think we hit an ideological difference between him and MLK; where the letter to birmingham details an injustice as no longer meritable as a law, Socrates instead looks at the social contract between a citizen and their society. he implies that were he to only pick and choose the laws that he adhered to as a citizen and only chose to discard his total acceptance of what his society stood for, he would then be hypocritical and more clearly unjust.

however there's a problem with this principle and this is why, while people are trying to not to justify dangerous rioting, they are rationalizing it. a lot of Socrates principles of society when expounded on don't encourage change, by any means. in fact one of his key analogies to explain the just citizen and society implicitly relies on class-based hierarchy to create balanced societies, at the least if i'm understanding his ideas correctly. that analogy also relies wholly on the idea that any individual's goal is to strive for just cause, which we can see is not consistently the case.

MLK's greatest foe, not by sake of being spiteful, but by being intentionally unable to contribute, was the white moderate. the person who tried to encourage disciplined approaches to civil reconstruction, and progressive attitudes towards dealing with situations was perceived as wholly patronizing and unwilling to actually help the cause where needed. even with the context of him shaming radical race groups such as the black panthers, it does not in any way then absolve those who try to insist on measured change. it is often believed to not work. (whether or not this is true is not my opinion. however, facing this idea head on forces us all to assess the reasoning behind certain actions.)

 

i'm sure there are some things i have wrong here, or at least some things i may be glossing over. that's just one thing i notice in particular, especially since i'm certain there exists a percentage of rioters who lack any political cause and are simply acting under the guise of those with intent of protest.

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13 hours ago, evan said:

(which i think if you want to voice an opinion on blm as a whole, you should read to understand the exact logic behind justice and the response)

There are so many things to read, see, and hear about justice that one ought to read when considering any social justice movement, and that is certainly one of the most important. One of the major failings of American secondary education is that it has no shortage of these works to call upon to teach students about the concept of justice and the role of the state and the individual in regards to it, but it often fails to offer more than things like a paragraph about Thoreau not paying taxes, an excerpt where Lincoln suggests John Brown deserves to be hanged, a section about how the only good Civil Rights leaders were the ones who went to jail willingly for sitting in the wrong chair, or a footnote about how Row v. Wade went down. It is not a simple task being exposed to these things for critical analysis in any meaningful way unless one takes courses on social justice in college.

I wonder how BLM and events like this one will fit in between the chapters devoted to war and acts of heroic patriotism in future high schools.

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26 minutes ago, Vae said:

Weren't you literally just bitching about racism and "anti-black sentiment",
and now you're pulling Jewish stereotypes out?

fghhhhh.PNG

I am a Jewish person. I have a nice shnosel and I like money. There's nothing wrong with any of that. I've spent a lot of time with my Jewish family and they are wonderful people.

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Well I thought it was clever considering the hook in my nose and the piles of money in my fridge.

Edit: I think maybe you have a little grudge against me for something from an earlier thread but my attacks were not without good intentions. I don't see how me filling the stereotype of having a large nose while being satirical about it makes me a hypocrite though.

Edit: I guess it was earlier in this thread when racism seemed to be ruling the field and really, that just got to me you know? So I apologize for offending any sentiments you had.

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I find it interesting that many news sources called them 'race riots,' when 'race riot' was mostly used to describe riots conducted by white individuals in the past. I'm honestly curious as to the reason for the change in tone. It used to be a positive name.

1 hour ago, Vae said:

Satire requires a basis for comparison though.

This is just shitposting.
But it's still hypocritical shitposting.

A person that believes the content of posts in a thread amount to advocating white supremacy has plenty of material to make Juvenalian satire.

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